Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Dear Axel, Thank you for publishing the reports. It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained? -- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
Hello, it's the summary of fields above (IT, legal etc). I think it's explained well... With regards, Daniel On 04/11/2018 04:46 PM, Sergey Myasoedov wrote:
Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
Dear Daniel, Thank you, you're right. My bad. -- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
On 11 Apr 2018, at 17:19, Daniel Suchy <danny@danysek.cz> wrote:
Hello, it's the summary of fields above (IT, legal etc). I think it's explained well...
With regards, Daniel
On 04/11/2018 04:46 PM, Sergey Myasoedov wrote:
Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kaa%40net-art.cz
Dear, Axel. Thank you for your report. But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive? ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz>:
Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail...
Hi, On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 03:51:55PM +0000, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
As people still use "open a new LIR!" as a cheaper way to acquire a /22 than "buy it on the market", the price is still not high enough, I would say. So it seems to be a reasonable compromise if one side says "it's too high" and the other side says "it should be higher" Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hello, Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately. Question stands about membership fees as well. Usually when people ask such questions they get answers like ripe community desired so, or they didn't discuss any other way and didn't choose it. But each year amount of LIRs is growing. But annual membership fees are stays the same (of course they talk about surplus redistribution, but it almost same). I support the question that RIPE NCC expenses are not clear for community. It's not clear and not open how much NCC pays for services, hardware, data-centers, staff. I suggest that financial reports should be more open. Main expenses should be agreed with members. Fiscal expenses must be justified and agreed with the members. The IT community knows the cost of IT infrastructure. And the membership self-cost should stand for needed expenses. Juri On 12.04.2018 10:30, Gert Doering wrote:
Hi,
On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 03:51:55PM +0000, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
-- Juri +7 (499) 346-76-29
Juri wrote:
Fiscal expenses must be justified and agreed with the members.
I'm not sure it would be a good idea to support this level of micromanagement - too many cooks spoil the broth. The RIPE NCC board publishes reports and budgets and the RIPE NCC membership votes on whether or not to support the spending plans at RIPE NCC general meetings. This is how membership based organisations usually work. As members, we elect a board to do the job of deciding whether or not the spending requests from the RIPE NCC look reasonable. If members have a problem with how the board is handling this, they can put themselves up for election to the board to fix the problems that they've identified. Nick
Good note, But system is big and bureaucratic. I never see that board try to ask members if they are agree or not agree with something. Or what decision they would like to follow. Have you ever seen at polls in LIR portal for key questions? For training? For budget questions? I don't feel any feedback from that. Of course board would decide by them-self. But they should hear the voice and real stats of the community. RIPE NCC gets more and more funds from members, but service is still not good but suitable. It takes months and years to even fix bugs in LIR portal as example. If we have, lets say, same services. RIPE NCC get more members - then membership service fees should become lower! Otherwise that tells everybody that management from RIPE NCC is not efficient. RIPE NCC should work for members interests, but not as a commercial monopoly structure. Juri On 12.04.2018 15:35, Nick Hilliard wrote:
Juri wrote:
Fiscal expenses must be justified and agreed with the members.
I'm not sure it would be a good idea to support this level of micromanagement - too many cooks spoil the broth.
The RIPE NCC board publishes reports and budgets and the RIPE NCC membership votes on whether or not to support the spending plans at RIPE NCC general meetings. This is how membership based organisations usually work.
As members, we elect a board to do the job of deciding whether or not the spending requests from the RIPE NCC look reasonable. If members have a problem with how the board is handling this, they can put themselves up for election to the board to fix the problems that they've identified.
Nick
Hello, It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region. On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 16:13:42 +0300 Juri <hostmaster@ntx.ru> wrote:
Good note,
But system is big and bureaucratic. I never see that board try to ask members if they are agree or not agree with something. Or what decision they would like to follow.
Have you ever seen at polls in LIR portal for key questions? For training? For budget questions? I don't feel any feedback from that. Of course board would decide by them-self. But they should hear the voice and real stats of the community.
RIPE NCC gets more and more funds from members, but service is still not good but suitable. It takes months and years to even fix bugs in LIR portal as example.
If we have, lets say, same services. RIPE NCC get more members - then membership service fees should become lower! Otherwise that tells everybody that management from RIPE NCC is not efficient. RIPE NCC should work for members interests, but not as a commercial monopoly structure.
Juri
On 12.04.2018 15:35, Nick Hilliard wrote:
Juri wrote:
Fiscal expenses must be justified and agreed with the members.
I'm not sure it would be a good idea to support this level of micromanagement - too many cooks spoil the broth.
The RIPE NCC board publishes reports and budgets and the RIPE NCC membership votes on whether or not to support the spending plans at RIPE NCC general meetings. This is how membership based organisations usually work.
As members, we elect a board to do the job of deciding whether or not the spending requests from the RIPE NCC look reasonable. If members have a problem with how the board is handling this, they can put themselves up for election to the board to fix the problems that they've identified.
Nick
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/a.gurbo%40severen.ru
-- Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru>
Dear Alexandr, The NCC has failed to implement this option (local currency payments) since 2012. ..but do you really think that rouble payment will allow you to avoid all the local regulations? ..should the NCC open a bank account in local currency in every country in the service region? -- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov You wrote Friday, April 13, 2018, 8:55:54 AM:
It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region.
I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now. пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru>:
Hello,
It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region.
On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 16:13:42 +0300 Juri <hostmaster@ntx.ru> wrote:
Good note,
But system is big and bureaucratic. I never see that board try to ask members if they are agree or not agree with something. Or what decision they would like to follow.
Have you ever seen at polls in LIR portal for key questions? For training? For budget questions? I don't feel any feedback from that. Of course board would decide by them-self. But they should hear the voice and real stats of the community.
RIPE NCC gets more and more funds from members, but service is still not good but suitable. It takes months and years to even fix bugs in LIR portal as example.
If we have, lets say, same services. RIPE NCC get more members - then membership service fees should become lower! Otherwise that tells everybody that management from RIPE NCC is not efficient. RIPE NCC should work for members interests, but not as a commercial monopoly structure.
Juri
Juri wrote:
Fiscal expenses must be justified and agreed with the members.
I'm not sure it would be a good idea to support this level of micromanagement - too many cooks spoil the broth.
The RIPE NCC board publishes reports and budgets and the RIPE NCC membership votes on whether or not to support the spending plans at RIPE NCC general meetings. This is how membership based organisations usually work.
As members, we elect a board to do the job of deciding whether or not the spending requests from the RIPE NCC look reasonable. If members have a problem with how the board is handling this, they can put themselves up for election to the board to fix the problems that
On 12.04.2018 15:35, Nick Hilliard wrote: they've
identified.
Nick
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-- Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru>
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This depends on currency exchange rate, which is variable and RIPE has no control over it. Other services (IXP, for example) also doesn't accept payment fixed in local currency from member origin country. Even in case of accepting payments in local currency, the membership/anual fees *must* be equal for each member regardless of member's regional currency (= respecting currency exchange rates). And it's much easier (and with less administrative overhead on RIPE side) to have membership fees in *single* currency, as exchange rate is - by design - variable. It was already mentioned - some members are trying to "micromanage" RIPE NCC. That's wrong idea in general. With regards, Daniel On 04/13/2018 09:45 AM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now.
пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru <mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru>>: It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region.
Yes, this sums it up pretty much, including the micro management. RIPE is overall in an excellent financial position (it rarely was better) and i see a lot of this ideas ignore the sole costs of moving staff needed, hardware (eg. import tax) and accounting to another jurisdiction which eats away the profit from it for years. -- If RIPE accepts payment in RUR (or GBP, or USD) it has to be exchanged to Euro immediately, so you pay the interbank rate anyway. In practice, the same you pay now. This exchange is either open market based on horrible rates (for eg. RUR) or government only and thus a fixed rate nobody can adjust to reality (eg. a lot of Arab country currencies). RIPE will not, and is not supposed to, hold foreign bank accounts and store money until better FX rates (that might never happen) or invest local for profit. Your complain is also not really RIPE related at all - Russia's currency is still based on *dollar* and *oil*, any loss is attributable to your economy and government, we should not subsidise your problems in any way (and neither should we finance anyone else this way). In RIPE countries the most used currency overall is simply Euro, so alone this justifies the sole usage IMO. -- William Weber On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 10:50, Daniel Suchy wrote: This depends on currency exchange rate, which is variable and RIPE has no control over it. Other services (IXP, for example) also doesn't accept payment fixed in local currency from member origin country. Even in case of accepting payments in local currency, the membership/anual fees *must* be equal for each member regardless of member's regional currency (= respecting currency exchange rates). And it's much easier (and with less administrative overhead on RIPE side) to have membership fees in *single* currency, as exchange rate is - by design - variable. It was already mentioned - some members are trying to "micromanage" RIPE NCC. That's wrong idea in general. With regards, Daniel On 04/13/2018 09:45 AM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now. пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo : It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region. _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/william%40william.si (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/william%40william.si)
So, what will you do if euro is gone?) Brexit is only beginning. пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 14:57 William <william@william.si>:
Yes, this sums it up pretty much, including the micro management. RIPE is overall in an excellent financial position (it rarely was better) and i see a lot of this ideas ignore the sole costs of moving staff needed, hardware (eg. import tax) and accounting to another jurisdiction which eats away the profit from it for years.
--
If RIPE accepts payment in RUR (or GBP, or USD) it has to be exchanged to Euro immediately, so you pay the interbank rate anyway. In practice, the same you pay now.
This exchange is either open market based on horrible rates (for eg. RUR) or government only and thus a fixed rate nobody can adjust to reality (eg. a lot of Arab country currencies). RIPE will not, and is not supposed to, hold foreign bank accounts and store money until better FX rates (that might never happen) or invest local for profit.
Your complain is also not really RIPE related at all - Russia's currency is still based on *dollar* and *oil*, any loss is attributable to your economy and government, we should not subsidise your problems in any way (and neither should we finance anyone else this way).
In RIPE countries the most used currency overall is simply Euro, so alone this justifies the sole usage IMO.
-- William Weber
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 10:50, Daniel Suchy <danny@danysek.cz> wrote:
This depends on currency exchange rate, which is variable and RIPE has no control over it. Other services (IXP, for example) also doesn't accept payment fixed in local currency from member origin country.
Even in case of accepting payments in local currency, the membership/anual fees *must* be equal for each member regardless of member's regional currency (= respecting currency exchange rates).
And it's much easier (and with less administrative overhead on RIPE side) to have membership fees in *single* currency, as exchange rate is - by design - variable.
It was already mentioned - some members are trying to "micromanage" RIPE NCC. That's wrong idea in general.
With regards, Daniel
On 04/13/2018 09:45 AM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now.
пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru <mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru>>: It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region.
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Can we cut the crap and get serious, please? I would suggest to host this topic another time because it moving location will not happen before 2020 and has nothing to do with the charging scheme for 2019. Thanks and have a nice weekend Met vriendelijke groeten, Peter Bin WebhostNow Rivium Boulevard 156 2909 LK Capelle aan den IJssel Nederland E: peterbin@webhostnow.nl T: 0111 - 700 508 www.webhostnow.nl KVK: 64957713 BTW: NL226573485B01
Op 13 apr. 2018 om 20:11 heeft Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
So, what will you do if euro is gone?) Brexit is only beginning.
пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 14:57 William <william@william.si>:
Yes, this sums it up pretty much, including the micro management. RIPE is overall in an excellent financial position (it rarely was better) and i see a lot of this ideas ignore the sole costs of moving staff needed, hardware (eg. import tax) and accounting to another jurisdiction which eats away the profit from it for years.
--
If RIPE accepts payment in RUR (or GBP, or USD) it has to be exchanged to Euro immediately, so you pay the interbank rate anyway. In practice, the same you pay now.
This exchange is either open market based on horrible rates (for eg. RUR) or government only and thus a fixed rate nobody can adjust to reality (eg. a lot of Arab country currencies). RIPE will not, and is not supposed to, hold foreign bank accounts and store money until better FX rates (that might never happen) or invest local for profit.
Your complain is also not really RIPE related at all - Russia's currency is still based on *dollar* and *oil*, any loss is attributable to your economy and government, we should not subsidise your problems in any way (and neither should we finance anyone else this way).
In RIPE countries the most used currency overall is simply Euro, so alone this justifies the sole usage IMO.
-- William Weber
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 10:50, Daniel Suchy <danny@danysek.cz> wrote: This depends on currency exchange rate, which is variable and RIPE has no control over it. Other services (IXP, for example) also doesn't accept payment fixed in local currency from member origin country.
Even in case of accepting payments in local currency, the membership/anual fees *must* be equal for each member regardless of member's regional currency (= respecting currency exchange rates).
And it's much easier (and with less administrative overhead on RIPE side) to have membership fees in *single* currency, as exchange rate is - by design - variable.
It was already mentioned - some members are trying to "micromanage" RIPE NCC. That's wrong idea in general.
With regards, Daniel
On 04/13/2018 09:45 AM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now.
пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru <mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru>>: It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region.
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/william%40william.si _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail...
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Guys, this is turning into a spam channel. There has to be a better forum to air any complaints / recommendations instead of sending 30 e-mail messages a day. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2018, at 14:38, Peter Bin <peterbin@webhostnow.nl<mailto:peterbin@webhostnow.nl>> wrote: Can we cut the crap and get serious, please? I would suggest to host this topic another time because it moving location will not happen before 2020 and has nothing to do with the charging scheme for 2019. Thanks and have a nice weekend Met vriendelijke groeten, Peter Bin WebhostNow Rivium Boulevard 156 2909 LK Capelle aan den IJssel Nederland E: peterbin@webhostnow.nl<mailto:peterbin@webhostnow.nl> T: 0111 - 700 508<tel:0111%20-%20700%20508> www.webhostnow.nl<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.webhostnow.nl%2f&c=E,1,tXdcQ2aLO0eRYQmXvl8KkAWlhdfVTH_RNJTakx6yZoFXxJom-0vJVRuyfTKj7Tr17vnp-qgHxYKrvu_aerI5PWmVwJlgbiSfdra3HNdbJw,,&typo=1> KVK: 64957713<tel:64957713> BTW: NL226573485B01 Op 13 apr. 2018 om 20:11 heeft Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com<mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>> het volgende geschreven: So, what will you do if euro is gone?) Brexit is only beginning. ??, 13 ??? 2018 ?., 14:57 William <william@william.si<mailto:william@william.si>>: Yes, this sums it up pretty much, including the micro management. RIPE is overall in an excellent financial position (it rarely was better) and i see a lot of this ideas ignore the sole costs of moving staff needed, hardware (eg. import tax) and accounting to another jurisdiction which eats away the profit from it for years. -- If RIPE accepts payment in RUR (or GBP, or USD) it has to be exchanged to Euro immediately, so you pay the interbank rate anyway. In practice, the same you pay now. This exchange is either open market based on horrible rates (for eg. RUR) or government only and thus a fixed rate nobody can adjust to reality (eg. a lot of Arab country currencies). RIPE will not, and is not supposed to, hold foreign bank accounts and store money until better FX rates (that might never happen) or invest local for profit. Your complain is also not really RIPE related at all - Russia's currency is still based on *dollar* and *oil*, any loss is attributable to your economy and government, we should not subsidise your problems in any way (and neither should we finance anyone else this way). In RIPE countries the most used currency overall is simply Euro, so alone this justifies the sole usage IMO. -- William Weber On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 10:50, Daniel Suchy <danny@danysek.cz<mailto:danny@danysek.cz>> wrote: This depends on currency exchange rate, which is variable and RIPE has no control over it. Other services (IXP, for example) also doesn't accept payment fixed in local currency from member origin country. Even in case of accepting payments in local currency, the membership/anual fees *must* be equal for each member regardless of member's regional currency (= respecting currency exchange rates). And it's much easier (and with less administrative overhead on RIPE side) to have membership fees in *single* currency, as exchange rate is - by design - variable. It was already mentioned - some members are trying to "micromanage" RIPE NCC. That's wrong idea in general. With regards, Daniel On 04/13/2018 09:45 AM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now. ??, 13 ??? 2018 ?., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru<mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru> <mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru<mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru>>>: It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region. _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.ripe.net%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fmembers-discuss&c=E,1,YS1ZYvPrKuOQQoZEQvbLQLRXmJJnAcvUR18D8vYAh4R8cKi9fb6p24_Vu3R0nWx7ibmpij75A4Uulxerw5XYPdK5wmqjWKysA0v5vWLyMYYB9pojH1NVUxI,&typo=1> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/william%40william.si<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.ripe.net%2fmailman%2foptions%2fmembers-discuss%2fwilliam%2540william.si&c=E,1,XH9ER3RqVA0iabCvUJTBuP8rzfCLRkvbSSzXlMZIHl45gr-9GZMccjOvA2XDM1o3os2XCO-9B28ShPQ3VeYNReeuC6KbQ6YX_NT6p77MQLUZ&typo=1> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.ripe.net%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fmembers-discuss&c=E,1,5JtXj0xSj28Sbt5muNSt_6s5K_zjivQYI5VirEmaYK5yzWOY3xHGXhRUxZLrcdEhmJu7xJxp1WL8rzg7MNWHa-MlcCxTknLParEFH5eDpGKROUB7y0BGgw,,&typo=1> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.ripe.net%2fmailman%2foptions%2fmembers-discuss%2faleksbulgakov%2540gmail.com&c=E,1,Zh5NbyEKP-ACXrw4ya3I1AGv0ZRdTevld_EQk42HDjqRqrhWvqZmCvsJFWFTvNuXFJ6mRed99pO4cMcGE0zr311quO_xb5EJz0_jZA1lGwfa&typo=1> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.ripe.net%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fmembers-discuss&c=E,1,xB0auV4cjPjFNY6LB0lhRAPQa-2JcMTPZOpE40EYeuH002_CKraQRAKb2Py3vvnOaQPuf5J6UkNlkWDiBWm6OuVD3IBYeBLfhq1qgXK46Q,,&typo=1> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/peterbin%40webhostnow.nl<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.ripe.net%2fmailman%2foptions%2fmembers-discuss%2fpeterbin%2540webhostnow.nl&c=E,1,QQOZyaQ-86w-YN-Z6BlGZgzYxMvP-USAGGyru93mE3ItsfxP5miGDOtM_kcbamvEEAdo0sUcMd7pAcThkW9lEa2Cs6RDEgKbGwPnptddRSVAQLa0&typo=1> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.ripe.net%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fmembers-discuss&c=E,1,YUyyNB-y4Vy9-Vvha51bHLre0Rop_XuswFVwg9eR52bLNLFgeqhLO55ISl2zyeyLZLd9gzjR6P4nEWT_z398JCeMtE3Nu9xpXp4shiQnxsa-FJhE&typo=1 Unsubscribe: https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.ripe.net%2fmailman%2foptions%2fmembers-discuss%2ftk%40lpcap.com&c=E,1,Sxdew0Obncr_XIC4jmov2KIPCmVHHqbbTbFSLitaMV-Due6Vjf0KJP-Nt_gCEoLECApBQyJNijIXslQGIWCYkX4X6_4S_qYzGJpDCCLde7LtLuyEWhdaiZR4Mg,,&typo=1 ________________________________ |LPC| DISCLAIMER This message is solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you have received this message in error, you should notify the sender by reply e-mail and immediately delete the message and all copies of it from your system and destroy any hard copies or printouts. The information contained in this message and any attachment is confidential, proprietary and legally protected, and any mistransmission does not alter or waive the protections afforded such information. Unauthorized review, use, dissemination, printing, copying, disclosure or publication of all or any part of the contained information is prohibited without the express written consent of the sender. The sender does not endorse or guarantee the accuracy and completeness of the contained information, and neither the recipient nor any other person is entitled to rely on such information. The sender has assumed no obligation to correct or supplement the contained information. Some or all of the contained information constitutes opinion and may be based on unconfirmed communications. This is not an offer, recommendation or solicitation to buy or sell securities.
Yes please only use this for critical updates.
On 13 Apr 2018, at 21:45, Kwalwasser, Thomas W. <tk@lpcap.com> wrote:
Guys, this is turning into a spam channel. There has to be a better forum to air any complaints / recommendations instead of sending 30 e-mail messages a day.
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 13, 2018, at 14:38, Peter Bin <peterbin@webhostnow.nl<mailto:peterbin@webhostnow.nl>> wrote:
Can we cut the crap and get serious, please?
I would suggest to host this topic another time because it moving location will not happen before 2020 and has nothing to do with the charging scheme for 2019.
Thanks and have a nice weekend
Met vriendelijke groeten, Peter Bin
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Op 13 apr. 2018 om 20:11 heeft Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com<mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>> het volgende geschreven:
So, what will you do if euro is gone?) Brexit is only beginning.
??, 13 ??? 2018 ?., 14:57 William <william@william.si<mailto:william@william.si>>: Yes, this sums it up pretty much, including the micro management. RIPE is overall in an excellent financial position (it rarely was better) and i see a lot of this ideas ignore the sole costs of moving staff needed, hardware (eg. import tax) and accounting to another jurisdiction which eats away the profit from it for years.
--
If RIPE accepts payment in RUR (or GBP, or USD) it has to be exchanged to Euro immediately, so you pay the interbank rate anyway. In practice, the same you pay now.
This exchange is either open market based on horrible rates (for eg. RUR) or government only and thus a fixed rate nobody can adjust to reality (eg. a lot of Arab country currencies). RIPE will not, and is not supposed to, hold foreign bank accounts and store money until better FX rates (that might never happen) or invest local for profit.
Your complain is also not really RIPE related at all - Russia's currency is still based on *dollar* and *oil*, any loss is attributable to your economy and government, we should not subsidise your problems in any way (and neither should we finance anyone else this way).
In RIPE countries the most used currency overall is simply Euro, so alone this justifies the sole usage IMO.
-- William Weber
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 10:50, Daniel Suchy <danny@danysek.cz<mailto:danny@danysek.cz>> wrote: This depends on currency exchange rate, which is variable and RIPE has no control over it. Other services (IXP, for example) also doesn't accept payment fixed in local currency from member origin country.
Even in case of accepting payments in local currency, the membership/anual fees *must* be equal for each member regardless of member's regional currency (= respecting currency exchange rates).
And it's much easier (and with less administrative overhead on RIPE side) to have membership fees in *single* currency, as exchange rate is - by design - variable.
It was already mentioned - some members are trying to "micromanage" RIPE NCC. That's wrong idea in general.
With regards, Daniel
On 04/13/2018 09:45 AM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now.
??, 13 ??? 2018 ?., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru<mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru> <mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru<mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru>>>: It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region.
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Hi, On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 10:06:35PM +0300, Efe Cakinberk wrote:
Yes please only use this for critical updates.
On 13 Apr 2018, at 21:45, Kwalwasser, Thomas W. <tk@lpcap.com> wrote:
Guys, this is turning into a spam channel. There has to be a better forum to air any complaints / recommendations instead of sending 30 e-mail messages a day.
Uh, what? This list is calles "members-discuss" to, uh, *discuss* things that affect RIPE NCC members. If you can't stand the heat, do not go near the fire... (*If* you want to complain about something, do it about people that post a very lengthy full e-mail to add a single sentence above it... we who we read this list have threading-capable mail clients, so we already know what was in the e-mail thread you replied to) But yeah, maybe one should just create a web forum and send you all there (and please take your ticket systems with you). Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
On Friday, 13 April 2018 20:45:56 CEST Kwalwasser, Thomas W. wrote:
Guys, this is turning into a spam channel. There has to be a better forum to air any complaints / recommendations instead of sending 30 e-mail messages a day.
This *is* the correct forum: - it's a mailing list, - it's called "members-*discuss*", - its description says "This is a list for RIPE NCC members to discuss membership-related issues." - the addresses subscribed to this list should belong to LIR contacts who can be reasonably expected to be interested in membership-related issues. - there is a SEPARATE ncc-announce list that, as the name suggests, is intended for announcements and critical updates. Additionally, members are capable of managing their own subscription to this list and ncc-announce separately. I can see how someone could be upset about the quality of some of these particular messages, but that's an entirely different issue. One would think that people who are capable of running an ISP or any other highly technical internet-related business should be capable of, among other things: - using mailing lists, - setting up email filters, - configuring their email notifications based on the filters, - managing their subscriptions, - looking up easy to find information on all of the above. In fact, one would think that those people would be familliar with proper usage of a mailing list thanks to being a subscriber to a number of those, related to technologies they use to run their business or whatever. This, however, turns out not to be the case. The mind boggles. -- Remigiusz Marcinkiewicz, remigiusz@marcinkiewicz.me
On 4/13/2018 12:51 PM, William wrote:
Yes, this sums it up pretty much, including the micro management. RIPE is overall in an excellent financial position (it rarely was better) and i see a lot of this ideas ignore the sole costs of moving staff needed, hardware (eg. import tax) and accounting to another jurisdiction which eats away the profit from it for years.
RIPE is in excellent financial position because its overcharging for something that shouldn't cost that much. Moving staff - why ? You buy new equipment. Hardware has no import tax within EU Accounting is much cheaper in a lot jurisdictions versus Netherlands
--
If RIPE accepts payment in RUR (or GBP, or USD) it has to be exchanged to Euro immediately, so you pay the interbank rate anyway. In practice, the same you pay now.
No , you can keep any currency at almost all banks. Noone is going to force to you to convert it to EUR unless you are going to spend it immediately.
This exchange is either open market based on horrible rates (for eg. RUR) or government only and thus a fixed rate nobody can adjust to reality (eg. a lot of Arab country currencies). RIPE will not, and is not supposed to, hold foreign bank accounts and store money until better FX rates (that might never happen) or invest local for profit.
Your complain is also not really RIPE related at all - Russia's currency is still based on *dollar* and *oil*, any loss is attributable to your economy and government, we should not subsidise your problems in any way**(and neither should we finance anyone else this way).
No , its about being fair. It's not. You cant ask 2000 euro from a company created in a country where the median sallary is 400E ( and im not talking about Russia ) and at the same time ask the SAME from a company created in a country where the median sallary is 2000 euro. That is 5x more expensive financially.
In RIPE countries the most used currency overall is simply Euro, so alone this justifies the sole usage IMO.
Based on what ? 9 out of 28 states don't use EUR. You can't ignore also ignore the fact of population density per country per acceptance of the eurozone. Your comments simply make no sense in any way
-- William Weber
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 10:50, Daniel Suchy <danny@danysek.cz> wrote:
This depends on currency exchange rate, which is variable and RIPE has no control over it. Other services (IXP, for example) also doesn't accept payment fixed in local currency from member origin country.
Even in case of accepting payments in local currency, the membership/anual fees *must* be equal for each member regardless of member's regional currency (= respecting currency exchange rates).
And it's much easier (and with less administrative overhead on RIPE side) to have membership fees in *single* currency, as exchange rate is - by design - variable.
It was already mentioned - some members are trying to "micromanage" RIPE NCC. That's wrong idea in general.
With regards, Daniel
On 04/13/2018 09:45 AM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now.
пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru <mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru> <mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru <mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru>>>: It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region.
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/william%40william.si
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A slightly offtopic. I searched through RIPE NCC site but I have not found where I could send question about maillist. I did not receive quoted letter from Aleksey Bulgakov and I would like to check mail delivery.
On Apr 13, 2018, at 11:42, Daniel Suchy <danny@danysek.cz> wrote:
This depends on currency exchange rate, which is variable and RIPE has no control over it. Other services (IXP, for example) also doesn't accept payment fixed in local currency from member origin country.
Even in case of accepting payments in local currency, the membership/anual fees *must* be equal for each member regardless of member's regional currency (= respecting currency exchange rates).
And it's much easier (and with less administrative overhead on RIPE side) to have membership fees in *single* currency, as exchange rate is - by design - variable.
It was already mentioned - some members are trying to "micromanage" RIPE NCC. That's wrong idea in general.
With regards, Daniel
On 04/13/2018 09:45 AM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now.
пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru <mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru>>: It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region.
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-- Best regards Taras Heichenko tasic@hostmaster.ua
The list is since we had the backend change very slow to update for some - one of my LIRs gets mails practically instant while i waited forever on this one. Your example seems to be very weird though; i had this mail on one LIR very early but on another nearly 12 hours later; one does not have it at all yet. Since the mailing list distributes based only on verification of the mail address (there is no moderation) it is a backend issue. lir-help@ is always useful to redirect to the proper people, ideally you'd open a ticket in the LIR Portal though. -- William Weber On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 15:02, Taras Heichenko wrote: A slightly offtopic. I searched through RIPE NCC site but I have not found where I could send question about maillist. I did not receive quoted letter from Aleksey Bulgakov and I would like to check mail delivery. On Apr 13, 2018, at 11:42, Daniel Suchy wrote: This depends on currency exchange rate, which is variable and RIPE has no control over it. Other services (IXP, for example) also doesn't accept payment fixed in local currency from member origin country. Even in case of accepting payments in local currency, the membership/anual fees *must* be equal for each member regardless of member's regional currency (= respecting currency exchange rates). And it's much easier (and with less administrative overhead on RIPE side) to have membership fees in *single* currency, as exchange rate is - by design - variable. It was already mentioned - some members are trying to "micromanage" RIPE NCC. That's wrong idea in general. With regards, Daniel On 04/13/2018 09:45 AM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now. пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo : It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region. _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/tasic%40hostmaster.ua (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/tasic%40hostmaster.ua) -- Best regards Taras Heichenko tasic@hostmaster.ua (mailto:tasic@hostmaster.ua) _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/william%40william.si (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/william%40william.si)
On Apr 13, 2018, at 16:24, William <william@william.si> wrote:
The list is since we had the backend change very slow to update for some - one of my LIRs gets mails practically instant while i waited forever on this one.
Your example seems to be very weird though; i had this mail on one LIR very early but on another nearly 12 hours later; one does not have it at all yet.
Since the mailing list distributes based only on verification of the mail address (there is no moderation) it is a backend issue.
lir-help@ is always useful to redirect to the proper people, ideally you'd open a ticket in the LIR Portal though.
Thank you. At least I have got the letter so it is really issue of too many members of the list. Since my first letter to maillist yesterday I have received 6 requests of confirmation of unsubscription and 2 password reminder. I wrote to this list first time so I wonder does anyone also received such strange kind of attack or is this my personal fan?
-- William Weber
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 15:02, Taras Heichenko <tasic@hostmaster.ua> wrote: A slightly offtopic.
I searched through RIPE NCC site but I have not found where I could send question about maillist. I did not receive quoted letter from Aleksey Bulgakov and I would like to check mail delivery.
On Apr 13, 2018, at 11:42, Daniel Suchy <danny@danysek.cz> wrote:
This depends on currency exchange rate, which is variable and RIPE has no control over it. Other services (IXP, for example) also doesn't accept payment fixed in local currency from member origin country.
Even in case of accepting payments in local currency, the membership/anual fees *must* be equal for each member regardless of member's regional currency (= respecting currency exchange rates).
And it's much easier (and with less administrative overhead on RIPE side) to have membership fees in *single* currency, as exchange rate is - by design - variable.
It was already mentioned - some members are trying to "micromanage" RIPE NCC. That's wrong idea in general.
With regards, Daniel
On 04/13/2018 09:45 AM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now.
пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru <mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru>>: It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region.
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Taras Heichenko tasic@hostmaster.ua
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In addition to the comments below I think idea to have multiple bank accounts in different countries just to make some members proud because paying in local currency will make entire service more expensive for nothing. In addition adding more bureaucracy is never good. We should look how to simplifying things not overcomplicated. The current option paying in euro is the best possible option. About the earlier emails and comments about training, quality of service etc. Honestly who is perfect, but have you ever worked with others e.g. ARIN? Believe me it is not the same, RIPE is much better and always happy to help you. Regards and have good day Slavey Dishkov Senior Network Engineer ScanSource Avenue du Bourget / Bourgetlaan 44 - B-1130 Brussels - Belgium Tel<+32%20(0)2%20763%204070%20ext.%207812>: +32 (0) 2 763 4070 ext. 7812, Mobile<+32%20(0)495%20673%20061>: +32 (0)495 673 061 Fax<+32%20(0)2%20762%207850>: +32 (0) 2 762 7850, Video<194.78.159.13>: 204.10.5.231##407812, WebEx<https://scansource.webex.com/meet/slavey.dishkov> Audio bridge:<+32%202%20761%206949,%207812> +32 2 761 6949, +44 1784 740 029, +49 221 963 7383 id: 7812 Find solutions that support your business at www.scansource.com ________________________________ ScanSource Europe SPRL, Avenue du Bourget / Bourgetlaan 44, B-1130 Brussels, Belgium - numéro d'entreprise 0476.373.928 Commercial Register (registre des personnes morales) tribunal de commerce de Bruxelles - TVA BE 0476.373.928. From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Aleksey Bulgakov Sent: 13 April 2018 09:46 Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: [EXT] Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 I completely agree. The Membership in Russia was 150k rubles in 2014 and 255k rubles is now. The annual fees were 60k rub in 2014 and 100k rub now. пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 10:21 Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru<mailto:a.gurbo@severen.ru>>: Hello, It is better to pay in our region in Russian rubles, in Europe in Euro, in England in pounds. All RIPE community should think about change not only about membership service fees, but and about currency per region. On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 16:13:42 +0300 Juri <hostmaster@ntx.ru<mailto:hostmaster@ntx.ru>> wrote:
Good note,
But system is big and bureaucratic. I never see that board try to ask members if they are agree or not agree with something. Or what decision they would like to follow.
Have you ever seen at polls in LIR portal for key questions? For training? For budget questions? I don't feel any feedback from that. Of course board would decide by them-self. But they should hear the voice and real stats of the community.
RIPE NCC gets more and more funds from members, but service is still not good but suitable. It takes months and years to even fix bugs in LIR portal as example.
If we have, lets say, same services. RIPE NCC get more members - then membership service fees should become lower! Otherwise that tells everybody that management from RIPE NCC is not efficient. RIPE NCC should work for members interests, but not as a commercial monopoly structure.
Juri
On 12.04.2018 15:35, Nick Hilliard wrote:
Juri wrote:
Fiscal expenses must be justified and agreed with the members.
I'm not sure it would be a good idea to support this level of micromanagement - too many cooks spoil the broth.
The RIPE NCC board publishes reports and budgets and the RIPE NCC membership votes on whether or not to support the spending plans at RIPE NCC general meetings. This is how membership based organisations usually work.
As members, we elect a board to do the job of deciding whether or not the spending requests from the RIPE NCC look reasonable. If members have a problem with how the board is handling this, they can put themselves up for election to the board to fix the problems that they've identified.
Nick
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On Apr 12, 2018, at 13:09, Juri <hostmaster@ntx.ru> wrote:
Hello,
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
Question stands about membership fees as well. Usually when people ask such questions they get answers like ripe community desired so, or they didn't discuss any other way and didn't choose it.
But each year amount of LIRs is growing. But annual membership fees are stays the same (of course they talk about surplus redistribution, but it almost same).
I support the question that RIPE NCC expenses are not clear for community. It's not clear and not open how much NCC pays for services, hardware, data-centers, staff.
I suggest that financial reports should be more open. Main expenses should be agreed with members.
Fiscal expenses must be justified and agreed with the members. The IT community knows the cost of IT infrastructure. And the membership self-cost should stand for needed expenses.
Hi! As for me RIPE looks like a club. It has some enter fee (the same for anybody) and you do not buy something for this money. But as a member of club you have some rights. For example to get some amount of IP-addresses. :) Of course there are some residual things like separate fee for PI blocks... Of course for this money RIPE could provide more attention and information for newbies (this time we have not received yet messages "unsubscribe me from this strange list", isn't it?) but I still hope that RIPE moves this direction.
Juri
On 12.04.2018 10:30, Gert Doering wrote:
Hi,
On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 03:51:55PM +0000, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
-- Juri +7 (499) 346-76-29
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Hi, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees. чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering <gert@space.net>:
Hi,
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail...
Hello All, Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe. Best Regards, -engur tr.bilkent
On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> wrote:
So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees.
чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering <gert@space.net>:
Hi,
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail...
members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t...
Let's not even start on political climate and safety in Turkey; this discussion is pointless (because neither exists anymore). Funny enough, as i noted to a Russian writing me direct the *worst* possibilities are Turkey, Belarus and the arab countries - Russia is not THAT bad, i just noted what i know as it was specifically mentioned as option. RIPE is where it always was, where it should be and safe there at higher but not insane costs - if you want INSANE costs look at the LACNIC and ARIN spending (which also are far less open generally about it). If you want to see legal corruption on paper look at AFRINIC. APNIC and RIPE are pretty much the only fair, affordable and *predictable* RIRs. -- William Weber On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 11:36, Engür Rıza Pişirici wrote: Hello All, Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe. Best Regards, -engur tr.bilkent On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees. чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering : Hi, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail...) _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t... (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t...)
The Belarus Republic is more stable in economics and politics. About staff quality - the NCC has many trainings and should grow the new talent people. пт, 13 Апр 2018 г., 16:31 William <william@william.si>:
Let's not even start on political climate and safety in Turkey; this discussion is pointless (because neither exists anymore).
Funny enough, as i noted to a Russian writing me direct the *worst* possibilities are Turkey, Belarus and the arab countries - Russia is not THAT bad, i just noted what i know as it was specifically mentioned as option.
RIPE is where it always was, where it should be and safe there at higher but not insane costs - if you want INSANE costs look at the LACNIC and ARIN spending (which also are far less open generally about it). If you want to see legal corruption on paper look at AFRINIC.
APNIC and RIPE are pretty much the only fair, affordable and *predictable* RIRs.
-- William Weber
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 11:36, Engür Rıza Pişirici <engur@bilkent.edu.tr> wrote:
Hello All,
Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe.
Best Regards,
-engur tr.bilkent
On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> wrote:
So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees.
чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering <gert@space.net>:
Hi,
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail...
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Oh, I’m sorry, but this discussion is really out of hand. Are you talking about moving RIPE offices because of lower costs in certain parts of the world ? I think this is insane to even bring to subject such matters. Ripe is based in Netherlands, one of the best and most respected countries on Earth, and it should remain there. Proposing to move RIPE or even propose for RIPE to open offices in parts of the world that are politically, military and economically unstable (like Turkey or Russia) is simply BS. Even in my country, with a socialist Government we have political and economical uncertainties just about every other week. To be honest, the only place I would RIPE to open offices any time soon is in London, which is one of the financial and IT capitals of the EU (so far). The entire world really needs to be focused on the West in every aspect possible, rather than heading East. Sincerely, — Petru Bunea / CEO suport@bunea.eu <mailto:suport@bunea.eu> / +40752481282 <tel:+40752481282> Bunea TELECOM / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT http://www.bunea.eu <http://www.bunea.eu/> / +40745495495 <tel:+40745495495>
On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:23, Engür Rıza Pişirici <engur@bilkent.edu.tr> wrote:
Hello All,
Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe.
Best Regards,
-engur tr.bilkent
On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com <mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>> wrote:
So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees.
чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering <gert@space.net <mailto:gert@space.net>>: Hi,
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail.com> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t... <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.tr>
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Even more fun - What you read here is in fact the Turkish government (this is the head of the IT department of the ministry in charge of IT) offering to make available subsidies. Let's spin it on for a second: If the costs would really be *any* arguable point i guarantee we can reduce the RIPE member needed funding to zero in a few hours - we call up a bunch of Saudi and Qatari LIRs, play them against each other and the financing is there next Tuesday, but they take influence for it. Same with a few governments that gladly finance the NCC... for influence. Everyone takes influence for favours (and for money as well), this is business. And as we all surely know, stability costs money as well (taxes finance healthcare and other spending, unless your country is resource rich but then the chance of having much democracy at all is very low statistically) - it is not free. We do not want to end up in a permanent uncertainty state like AFRINIC (which ironically was split from... RIPE). That is why it is fine how it is, especially as NL covers a lot of similar institutions (ICoJ & several other UN institutions, Air traffic related things for EU, etc. etc.) and has an excellent track record from human rights to solid legal system, with still the EU courts on top if ever required. ---- Obviously also unrealistic as you said but I'd vote strictly against London as well - Primarily as UK is soon not EU member anymore (which removes the EU court recourse) and while ok-ish legal system it is not really as transparent or free as NL (see OECD indexes & Transparency International reports) plus somewhat too US aligned (which a lot of RIPE served area is not interested in, my country included). I'd also not want to see 2 RIRs in the UK's influence sphere (which AU is in with APNIC). -- William Weber On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 15:41, Bunea TELECOM wrote: Oh, I’m sorry, but this discussion is really out of hand. Are you talking about moving RIPE offices because of lower costs in certain parts of the world ? I think this is insane to even bring to subject such matters. Ripe is based in Netherlands, one of the best and most respected countries on Earth, and it should remain there. Proposing to move RIPE or even propose for RIPE to open offices in parts of the world that are politically, military and economically unstable (like Turkey or Russia) is simply BS. Even in my country, with a socialist Government we have political and economical uncertainties just about every other week. To be honest, the only place I would RIPE to open offices any time soon is in London, which is one of the financial and IT capitals of the EU (so far). The entire world really needs to be focused on the West in every aspect possible, rather than heading East. Sincerely, — Petru Bunea / CEO suport@bunea.eu (mailto:suport@bunea.eu) / +40752481282 (tel:+40752481282)Bunea TELECOM / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT http://www.bunea.eu (http://www.bunea.eu) / +40745495495 (tel:+40745495495) On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:23, Engür Rıza Pişirici wrote: Hello All, Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe. Best Regards, -engurtr.bilkent On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees. чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering : Hi, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail...) _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t... (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t...) _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu)
I was just about to write the same. I didn’t read all mails on this discussion as the threat is escalating and to many very personal opinions where made. In general it seems that the community is looking for more details on investments and expenses made and how things are calculated. Please allow RIPE time to take a statement on this. Mit freundlichen Grüßen Mauricio Schäpers CIO / Trainer & Consultant From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Bunea TELECOM Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 12:02 PM To: Engür Rıza Pişirici <engur@bilkent.edu.tr> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Oh, I’m sorry, but this discussion is really out of hand. Are you talking about moving RIPE offices because of lower costs in certain parts of the world ? I think this is insane to even bring to subject such matters. Ripe is based in Netherlands, one of the best and most respected countries on Earth, and it should remain there. Proposing to move RIPE or even propose for RIPE to open offices in parts of the world that are politically, military and economically unstable (like Turkey or Russia) is simply BS. Even in my country, with a socialist Government we have political and economical uncertainties just about every other week. To be honest, the only place I would RIPE to open offices any time soon is in London, which is one of the financial and IT capitals of the EU (so far). The entire world really needs to be focused on the West in every aspect possible, rather than heading East. Sincerely, — [cid:image001.jpg@01D3D345.C24DF750] Petru Bunea / CEO suport@bunea.eu<mailto:suport@bunea.eu> / +40752481282<tel:+40752481282> Bunea TELECOM / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT http://www.bunea.eu<http://www.bunea.eu/> / +40745495495<tel:+40745495495> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:23, Engür Rıza Pişirici <engur@bilkent.edu.tr<mailto:engur@bilkent.edu.tr>> wrote: Hello All, Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe. Best Regards, -engur tr.bilkent On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com<mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>> wrote: So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees. чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>>: Hi, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu
Hello All, If you want to carry your surrogate and your operations. we can give support and encouragement as a state. [cid:image001.png@01D3D330.0E1A1E40] [cid:image002.png@01D3D330.0E1A1E40] [cid:image003.png@01D3D330.0E1A1E40][cid:image004.png@01D3D330.0E1A1E40][cid:image005.png@01D3D330.0E1A1E40][cid:image006.png@01D3D330.0E1A1E40][cid:image007.png@01D3D330.0E1A1E40] From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Engür Rıza Pişirici Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 12:24 PM To: Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Hello All, Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe. Best Regards, -engur tr.bilkent On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com<mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>> wrote: So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees. чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>>: Hi, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t...
Imho, the debate should not only be about money, but about political stability, too. We all see some non-democratic changes in several countries (!). Since RIPE has to be independent, I would suggest such countries, if any. That would be Switzerland and Austria only, as far as I can see. Since Switzerland is definitely more expensive than Netherlands, Austria may seem the only choice. But, the move and loosing / changing staff would be far more expensive and disruptive than remaining in Amsterdam. So, at the end of the day, I _definitely_ want RIPE NCC remain in NL. Kind regards, John Fitzgerald ---------------------------------------------------------------- John Fitzgerald Interactive Network GmbH MD/Geschaeftsfuehrer Lindleystraße 14 http://www.internet.de D-60314 Frankfurt am Main ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Emre Ögütcen Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 1:02 PM To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Hello All, If you want to carry your surrogate and your operations. we can give support and encouragement as a state. From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Engür Rıza Pişirici Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 12:24 PM To: Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Hello All, Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe. Best Regards, -engur tr.bilkent On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> wrote: So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees. чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering <gert@space.net>: Hi, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t...
Dear Friends Could you move this discussion towards another thread. However just some thoughts from my side. For me Amsterdam is a good place for RIPE to stay. It’s stable and has a political govern that is democratic. We cannot say that this situation happens in countries like Russia or Turkey. I would love you move to Barcelona – but I see what political instability means and therefore the money is not everything. An organization as RIPE must stay in a very stable and political correct nation. Kind Regards Ramon Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Engür Riza Pisirici Gesendet: Freitag, 13. April 2018 11:24 An: Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Hello All, Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe. Best Regards, -engur tr.bilkent On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com <mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> > wrote: So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees. чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering <gert@space.net <mailto:gert@space.net> >: Hi, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t...
maybe, it’s good idea to change the subject. we have some nonAdult ‘friends’ here. these are the 2 ipv4 address that try to unsubscribe me from the list ;) i hope, they QUICKLY learn how to behave.. 185.191.166.218 178.209.19.156 Best Regards, -engur
On 13 Apr 2018, at 14:07, Ramon Amat <amat@tvfactory.ch> wrote:
Dear Friends
Could you move this discussion towards another thread. However just some thoughts from my side.
For me Amsterdam is a good place for RIPE to stay. It’s stable and has a political govern that is democratic. We cannot say that this situation happens in countries like Russia or Turkey.
I would love you move to Barcelona – but I see what political instability means and therefore the money is not everything. An organization as RIPE must stay in a very stable and political correct nation.
Kind Regards Ramon
Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Engür Riza Pisirici Gesendet: Freitag, 13. April 2018 11:24 An: Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Hello All,
Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe.
Best Regards,
-engur tr.bilkent
On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> wrote:
So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees.
чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering <gert@space.net>: Hi,
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote:
Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t...
So how's the weather where you are? It's going to be hot here today and then nothing but rain this weekend :( :) On 04/13/2018 07:11 AM, "R. Engür Pişirici" wrote:
maybe, it’s good idea to change the subject. we have some nonAdult ‘friends’ here.
these are the 2 ipv4 address that try to unsubscribe me from the list ;)
i hope, they QUICKLY learn how to behave..
185.191.166.218
178.209.19.156
Best Regards, -engur
On 13 Apr 2018, at 14:07, Ramon Amat <amat@tvfactory.ch <mailto:amat@tvfactory.ch>> wrote:
Dear Friends
Could you move this discussion towards another thread. However just some thoughts from my side.
For me Amsterdam is a good place for RIPE to stay. It’s stable and has a political govern that is democratic.
We cannot say that this situation happens in countries like Russia or Turkey.
I would love you move to Barcelona – but I see what political instability means and therefore the money
is not everything. An organization as RIPE must stay in a very stable and political correct nation.
Kind Regards Ramon
*Von:*members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *Im Auftrag von *Engür Riza Pisirici *Gesendet:* Freitag, 13. April 2018 11:24 *An:* Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com <mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> *Betreff:* Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Hello All,
Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe.
Best Regards,
-engur
tr.bilkent
On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com <mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>> wrote:
So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees.
чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering <gert@space.net <mailto:gert@space.net>>:
Hi,
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote: > Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. > All those things should be discussed separately.
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource consumption from fee structure.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail...
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.t...
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/daniel%40privatesyste...
On 04/13/2018 10:23 AM, Engür Rıza Pişirici wrote:
Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe.
Ah yes, what we need to fix the trust issues with the RIPE NCC is to move it to a country that's totally not a dictatorship [1] in which the government would totally not interfere with any of its' functioning [2] [3]. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_constitutional_referendum,_2017#Recept... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_regulation_in_Turkey [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_block_of_Wikipedia_in_Turkey -- Serge 'q3k' Bazanski serge@bazanski.pl
Gert, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 05:47:25PM +0200, Gert Doering wrote:
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way,
You know full well that one has to join the RIPE NCC (or some other RIR) in order to register resources even if bought on the "free market". This argument, on its own, doesn't stand. rgds, Sascha Luck
This is not correct. Legacy resources are exempt if not in a LIR account/locked (which does NOT prevent sale/changes) and a LIR can in practice hold purchased PA allocations for a single customer as well (under their data/account) at no additional yearly costs. If you trust the LIR you can also just sign a purchase agreement with them, negating any RIPE need at all. -- William Weber On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 02:23, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote: Gert, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 05:47:25PM +0200, Gert Doering wrote: As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way, You know full well that one has to join the RIPE NCC (or some other RIR) in order to register resources even if bought on the "free market". This argument, on its own, doesn't stand. rgds, Sascha Luck _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/william%40william.si (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/william%40william.si)
Hi, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 09:03:04PM +0100, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 05:47:25PM +0200, Gert Doering wrote:
As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 that way,
You know full well that one has to join the RIPE NCC (or some other RIR) in order to register resources even if bought on the "free market". This argument, on its own, doesn't stand.
PI and AS numbers can be registered just fine without joining a RIR (via a trusted sponsoring LIR). If you want to buy someone else's RIPE PA space, indeed, then you need to be a RIPE member yourself. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
On Thursday, 12 April 2018 09:30:09 CEST Gert Doering wrote:
As people still use "open a new LIR!" as a cheaper way to acquire a /22 than "buy it on the market", the price is still not high enough, I would say.
So it seems to be a reasonable compromise if one side says "it's too high" and the other side says "it should be higher"
This is extremely dependent on who you ask due to extreme operating scale differences between RIPE members, who are somewhat artificially held to the same standards of rights and responsibilities even if under no other circumstances would they be presumed equal in any respect or considered peers. For a multinational corporation or a national ISP, the signup and annual RIPE fees are peanuts with a side of pocket lint. It costs them more per year to top up Coca-Cola in the free soft drink vending machines at their offices than to keep their RIPE membership. Regional ISPs and other medium-sized businesses are probably more inclined to actually notice that membership fee in an expenses report, but I'm pretty sure it's not something anyone frets over. Come to think of it, a single decent server or L3 managed switch easily costs way more, and that's not even anywhere close to the "actually expensive" end of the scale. Small local businesses, especially in low-income countries of Eastern and Southern Europe, are likely to be hit pretty hard by those fees, though, and there really isn't any alternative to becoming a member for a very small ISP that wishes to remain independent and competetive (read: small scale and often remote area of operation doesn't leave many "trusted LIRs" to choose from, who are not direct competitors at the same time, so the argument for asking a "trusted LIR" to manage resource registration is sometimes kind of sketchy). On one hand, I would still be inclined to say that if 1400 EUR per year is a matter of life and death for one's business, they're probably doing something wrong; on the other, I can't help but agree that this *can* be a lot of money for someone who just wanted to run an ISP for their small town and a couple villages around it and remain independent from the bigger fish like their national ISP, but just happens to live in the middle of nowhere within a former Soviet republic or something like that. Lastly, I presume there are some member-funded (as in funded by *their* members) non-profit NGOs among the RIPE memers, for whom the fees are rather painfully high. I should know, I represent one. 1400 EUR is about 5 to 6% of our *whole* expected annual budget for 2018, which is almost exclusively covered by member contributions and donations. Yet we are paying that fee and, apparently, we're less fussy about it than some members who are probably better prepared to afford it. So, that's my take on the "why" of this whole discussion. As for "what to do about it" - hell if I know, but I don't think it's possible to do much of anything without acknowledging factitiousness of the notion that entities of such wildly different sizes and financial capabilities can be considered equal peers in all respects. I haven't got the faintest idea of how to do that *properly*, though, and I can see at least a dozen ways to abuse any potential rules that tried to do that (knowing the human creativity when it comes to self-interest, there are probably a couple dozen more), so I'm not putting forth any proposals. I just hope that, should this discussion continue now or resume in the future, the above will help it kickstart a more analytical approach to the problem, instead of a torrent of angry three-sentence tit-for-tats it is now. Regards, Remigiusz Marcinkiewicz Warsaw Hackerspace // https://bgp.wtf/ // https://hackerspace.pl/ -- Remigiusz Marcinkiewicz, remigiusz@marcinkiewicz.me
On 04/14/2018 12:54 AM, Remigiusz Marcinkiewicz wrote:
For a multinational corporation or a national ISP, the signup and annual RIPE fees are peanuts with a side of pocket lint. It costs them more per year to top up Coca-Cola in the free soft drink vending machines at their offices than to keep their RIPE membership.
Yes, and in that regard it would be much more fair to differentiate annual fees by allocation size, like other RIRs do. I think it is kinda odd that when this was last discussed in 2016 the two parties that were most vocally opposed against any type of price differentiation whatsoever -now matter how little- were an entertainment and communications group with a multi-billion turnover. As well as a city council -with a 250 million GBP budget- that felt any price increase should not apply to them, as they were both a legacy holder and "non-profit"... The board subsequently concluded that since there was no consensus on another funding model, it would not put any proposal to change the current system up to vote. I strongly suggest this to be reconsidered. Do keep in mind that the number of new small LIRs is increasing by the day, and regardless how older LIRs may feel about what this club should be about, and how it should be run, do keep in mind that we all have voting rights, and the majority has the power to change things. If you prefer things not to escalate to the point where one day there could indeed be relocation and micro-management, start by taking some steam off the issues, and reconsider fees. Yours sincerely, Floris Bos
On one hand, I would still be inclined to say that if 1400 EUR per year is a matter of life and death for one's business, they're probably doing something wrong; on the other, I can't help but agree that this *can* be a lot of money for someone who just wanted to run an ISP for their small town and a couple villages around it and remain independent from the bigger fish
Hi, Rmiqiusz Marcinkiewicz wrote: like their national ISP, but just happens to live in the middle of nowhere within a former Soviet republic or something like that. In fact i am such a small company (only me and myself). The RIPE fee is already more than 60% of all my years expenses of my business. If there is any discount that can apply to small companies or a fee based on revenue would be a much better position for me. Also if my reveived IPv4 net is already fully used i would never be able to get other IPv4 addresses anymore as i cannot afford to buy ip addresses on the market neither i am allowed to officially receive more from RIPE. A real issue that can prevent the competition against other companies. Rgds. Michael
Dear Aleksey,
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration.
I understand you refer to the sign-up fee, which is indeed 2000 EUR ever since I remember.
Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
I do not think the expenses with new members are only related to signing/sending the contract. Usually new LIRs need more attention, they are not familiar with the processes. The RIPE NCC provides free training where the new LIRs have priority. Free meeting tickets for new LIRs are also available: https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/become-a-member/free-tickets... All these are (partly) covered by the sign-up fee. I hope this helps. Best regards, Janos Zsako
ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>>:
Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
> Dear RIPE NCC members,
> The following important documents are now online:
> - RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 > - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 > - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
> All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting > (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to > approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
> The full list of supporting documents is available at: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
> If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net <mailto:agm@ripe.net>>.
> We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on > these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will > take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those > who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
> We previously announced that publication of these documents would take > place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
> All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to > register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
> Best regards,
> Axel Pawlik > Managing Director > RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
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On 04/12/2018 10:18 AM, Janos Zsako wrote:
Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
I do not think the expenses with new members are only related to signing/sending the contract.
Usually new LIRs need more attention, they are not familiar with the processes. The RIPE NCC provides free training where the new LIRs have priority.
So, how many brand new LIRs actually followed that training? Think the majority of smaller providers does not do their own routing, but outsources that to their colocation provider. Yours sincerely, Floris Bos
Honestly, depends, as if you want to do something serious, then you should follow the trainig courses. Because the colo provider might not be there for you when you have real problems. — Petru Bunea / CEO suport@bunea.eu / +40752481282 Bunea TELECOM / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT http://www.bunea.eu / +40745495495
On 12 Apr 2018, at 14:55, Floris Bos <bos@je-eigen-domein.nl> wrote:
On 04/12/2018 10:18 AM, Janos Zsako wrote:
Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
I do not think the expenses with new members are only related to signing/sending the contract.
Usually new LIRs need more attention, they are not familiar with the processes. The RIPE NCC provides free training where the new LIRs have priority.
So, how many brand new LIRs actually followed that training?
Think the majority of smaller providers does not do their own routing, but outsources that to their colocation provider.
Yours sincerely,
Floris Bos
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On 04/12/2018 02:07 PM, Bunea Petru wrote:
Honestly, depends, as if you want to do something serious, then you should follow the trainig courses. Because the colo provider might not be there for you when you have real problems.
Following a "BGP operations" course would help us in what way exactly, if we are not the ones doing BGP? Courses in dnssec are already given by various domain registries we are a member of. And there is not that much to create objects for if you only get assigned a very tiny allocation. :-( So following a database training course is overkill as well... Yours sincerely, Floris Bos
Hi, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 02:19:21PM +0200, Floris Bos wrote:
And there is not that much to create objects for if you only get assigned a very tiny allocation. :-(
You get a /29 allocation. That is lots of objects. Leave IPv4 behind. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi there: Seriously don’t think 25k net income is a lot money adjusted for Dutch price level. On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 21:45 Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 02:19:21PM +0200, Floris Bos wrote:
And there is not that much to create objects for if you only get assigned a very tiny allocation. :-(
You get a /29 allocation. That is lots of objects.
Leave IPv4 behind.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/h.lu%40outsideheaven....
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Hello There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations. Best regards, Hans Govenius Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Puolesta Aleksey Bulgakov Lähetetty: keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 Kopio: members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Dear, Axel. Thank you for your report. But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive? ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz<mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>>: Dear Axel, Thank you for publishing the reports. It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained? -- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net<mailto:agm@ripe.net>>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail...
Hello, It's very interesting to see over couple of years that charging scheme stays the same https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do... So on General Meetings people just can vote for this one or against it, If against - it stays the same as it was before, i.e. the same. So it's just voting without selection. The questions on GM was never rized up if we should - keep higher, - keep lower - or keep the same membership fees. Of course not much old LIRs don't care about membership fees. But all new companies who would like to become an LIR cares, and they don't understand at all how the systems works yet. So I advice and suggest that members take more part in control of NCC. This is the responsibility of current members. It will be good if more members take active part in such discussions. Juri On 12.04.2018 13:01, Hans Govenius wrote:
Hello
There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations.
Best regards,
I really doubt that uncovering salary numbers are appropriate in this case. RIPE NCC was always helpful and trusty from my POV. And who could disagree that Axel is the biggest asset they are paying for? -- Alex Lobachov Telenet, sia Network Systems Engineer LinkedIn: https://lv.linkedin.com/in/allxll E-mail: alxl@telenet.lv Skype: alxl__ Direct office: +371 67886224 Office: +371 67711111 From: Hans Govenius Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 1:01 PM To: Aleksey Bulgakov Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net ; agm@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Hello There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations. Best regards, Hans Govenius Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Puolesta Aleksey Bulgakov Lähetetty: keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 Kopio: members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Dear, Axel. Thank you for your report. But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive? ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz>: Dear Axel, Thank you for publishing the reports. It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained? -- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/alxl%40telenet.lv
Hello These are not salary numbers. Salary numbers would be significantly higher. These are some expenses just calculated per person. And these are relatively high compared to companies of the same size. I do agree however that new memberships should not be cheaper as mentioned before. Best regards, Hans Govenius Lähettäjä: Alex Lobachov <alxl@telenet.lv> Lähetetty: torstai 12. huhtikuuta 2018 13.36 Vastaanottaja: Hans Govenius <Hans.Govenius@devnet.fi>; Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> Kopio: members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 I really doubt that uncovering salary numbers are appropriate in this case. RIPE NCC was always helpful and trusty from my POV. And who could disagree that Axel is the biggest asset they are paying for? [Smile] -- Alex Lobachov Telenet, sia Network Systems Engineer LinkedIn: https://lv.linkedin.com/in/allxll E-mail: alxl@telenet.lv<mailto:alxl@telenet.lv> Skype: alxl__ Direct office: +371 67886224 Office: +371 67711111 From: Hans Govenius<mailto:Hans.Govenius@devnet.fi> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 1:01 PM To: Aleksey Bulgakov<mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> ; agm@ripe.net<mailto:agm@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Hello There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations. Best regards, Hans Govenius Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> Puolesta Aleksey Bulgakov Lähetetty: keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 Kopio: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>; agm@ripe.net<mailto:agm@ripe.net> Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Dear, Axel. Thank you for your report. But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive? ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz<mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>>: Dear Axel, Thank you for publishing the reports. It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained? -- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net<mailto:agm@ripe.net>>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... ________________________________ _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/alxl%40telenet.lv
I agree with you, I think that the operation of RIPE is highly efficient, people must be well paid to do their job correctly.
I really doubt that uncovering salary numbers are appropriate in this case. RIPE NCC was always helpful and trusty from my POV. And who could disagree that Axel is the biggest asset they are paying for? Smile
-- Alex Lobachov Telenet, sia Network Systems Engineer LinkedIn: https://lv.linkedin.com/in/allxll E-mail: alxl@telenet.lv Skype: alxl__ Direct office: +371 67886224 Office: +371 67711111
*From:* Hans Govenius <mailto:Hans.Govenius@devnet.fi> *Sent:* Thursday, April 12, 2018 1:01 PM *To:* Aleksey Bulgakov <mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> ; agm@ripe.net <mailto:agm@ripe.net> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Hello
There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations.
Best regards,
Hans Govenius
*Lähettäjä:* members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> *Puolesta *Aleksey Bulgakov *Lähetetty:* keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 *Kopio:* members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net *Aihe:* Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Dear, Axel.
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>>:
Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
> Dear RIPE NCC members,
> The following important documents are now online:
> - RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 > - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 > - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
> All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting > (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to > approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
> The full list of supporting documents is available at: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
> If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net <mailto:agm@ripe.net>>.
> We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on > these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will > take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those > who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
> We previously announced that publication of these documents would take > place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
> All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to > register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
> Best regards,
> Axel Pawlik > Managing Director > RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail...
------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/alxl%40telenet.lv
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I think we can all agree to the fact that the service RIPE provides us is vital to 90% of its the members. And it really is a top quality one, so I have absolutely no wish to inquire information regarding personnel’s salaries, as most of us are completely satisfied with their service. — Petru Bunea / CEO suport@bunea.eu / +40752481282 Bunea TELECOM / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT http://www.bunea.eu / +40745495495
On 12 Apr 2018, at 13:35, Alex Lobachov <alxl@telenet.lv> wrote:
I really doubt that uncovering salary numbers are appropriate in this case. RIPE NCC was always helpful and trusty from my POV. And who could disagree that Axel is the biggest asset they are paying for? <wlEmoticon-smile[1].png>
-- Alex Lobachov Telenet, sia Network Systems Engineer LinkedIn: https://lv.linkedin.com/in/allxll E-mail: alxl@telenet.lv Skype: alxl__ Direct office: +371 67886224 Office: +371 67711111
From: Hans Govenius Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 1:01 PM To: Aleksey Bulgakov Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net ; agm@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Hello
There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations.
Best regards,
Hans Govenius
Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Puolesta Aleksey Bulgakov Lähetetty: keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 Kopio: members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Dear, Axel.
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz>: Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/alxl%40telenet.lv _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff. I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000. David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34 Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr - www.ipeva-studio.com Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur. Le 12 avr. 2018 à 12:01, Hans Govenius a écrit :
Hello
There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations.
Best regards,
Hans Govenius
Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Puolesta Aleksey Bulgakov Lähetetty: keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 Kopio: members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Dear, Axel.
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz>: Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/david.ponzone%40ipeva...
Sorry, my mistake, 3125€ per month per staff (4000/1,28). The net income remains around 2500€. David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34 Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr - www.ipeva-studio.com Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur. Le 12 avr. 2018 à 14:55, David Ponzone a écrit :
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.
I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000.
David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34
Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr - www.ipeva-studio.com
Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur.
Le 12 avr. 2018 à 12:01, Hans Govenius a écrit :
Hello
There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations.
Best regards,
Hans Govenius
Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Puolesta Aleksey Bulgakov Lähetetty: keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 Kopio: members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Dear, Axel.
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz>: Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/david.ponzone%40ipeva...
Hello again As i did point out we are speaking of some OPEX items NOT salary. Salary components are 9720 Keuros/year which means around 5300 euros/month/empoyee including indeed components you pointed out below and as we speak about work that is demanding i dont find that to be a problem in anyway. I did just count that not clearly opened NON-salary OPEX components which adds up to more than 4000 euros/month/person is quite high for these expenses. Salaries are not problem here. And maybe even not other expenses, it was just pointed out that NON-salary components could be disclosed more specifically. Best regads, Hans Govenius Lähettäjä: David Ponzone <david.ponzone@ipeva.fr> Lähetetty: torstai 12. huhtikuuta 2018 15.57 Vastaanottaja: Hans Govenius <Hans.Govenius@devnet.fi> Kopio: Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>; members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Sorry, my mistake, 3125€ per month per staff (4000/1,28). The net income remains around 2500€. David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr<mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr> tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34 Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr<blocked::http://www.ipeva.fr/> - www.ipeva-studio.com<blocked::http://www.ipeva-studio.com/> Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur. Le 12 avr. 2018 à 14:55, David Ponzone a écrit : AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff. I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000. David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr<mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr> tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34 Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr<blocked::http://www.ipeva.fr/> - www.ipeva-studio.com<blocked::http://www.ipeva-studio.com/> Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur. Le 12 avr. 2018 à 12:01, Hans Govenius a écrit : Hello There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations. Best regards, Hans Govenius Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> Puolesta Aleksey Bulgakov Lähetetty: keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 Kopio: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>; agm@ripe.net<mailto:agm@ripe.net> Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Dear, Axel. Thank you for your report. But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive? ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz<mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>>: Dear Axel, Thank you for publishing the reports. It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained? -- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net<mailto:agm@ripe.net>>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/david.ponzone%40ipeva...
Hans, Understood, sorry I missed your point. David Ponzone
Le 12 avr. 2018 à 15:09, Hans Govenius <Hans.Govenius@devnet.fi> a écrit :
Hello again
As i did point out we are speaking of some OPEX items NOT salary. Salary components are 9720 Keuros/year which means around 5300 euros/month/empoyee including indeed components you pointed out below and as we speak about work that is demanding i dont find that to be a problem in anyway.
I did just count that not clearly opened NON-salary OPEX components which adds up to more than 4000 euros/month/person is quite high for these expenses.
Salaries are not problem here. And maybe even not other expenses, it was just pointed out that NON-salary components could be disclosed more specifically.
Best regads,
Hans Govenius
Lähettäjä: David Ponzone <david.ponzone@ipeva.fr> Lähetetty: torstai 12. huhtikuuta 2018 15.57 Vastaanottaja: Hans Govenius <Hans.Govenius@devnet.fi> Kopio: Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>; members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Sorry, my mistake, 3125€ per month per staff (4000/1,28). The net income remains around 2500€.
David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34
Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr - www.ipeva-studio.com
Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur.
Le 12 avr. 2018 à 14:55, David Ponzone a écrit :
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.
I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000.
David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34
Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr - www.ipeva-studio.com
Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur.
Le 12 avr. 2018 à 12:01, Hans Govenius a écrit :
Hello
There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations.
Best regards,
Hans Govenius
Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Puolesta Aleksey Bulgakov Lähetetty: keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 Kopio: members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Dear, Axel.
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz>: Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/david.ponzone%40ipeva...
Well… never saw a company where expenses double the cost… 5.3 + 4 = 9.3k / month / head (which includes secretary). I don’t think this is the usual behaviour for a non profit association. <http://www.a0labs.com/>
Le 12 avr. 2018 à 15:13, David Ponzone <david.ponzone@ipeva.fr> a écrit :
Hans,
Understood, sorry I missed your point.
David Ponzone
Le 12 avr. 2018 à 15:09, Hans Govenius <Hans.Govenius@devnet.fi <mailto:Hans.Govenius@devnet.fi>> a écrit :
Hello again
As i did point out we are speaking of some OPEX items NOT salary. Salary components are 9720 Keuros/year which means around 5300 euros/month/empoyee including indeed components you pointed out below and as we speak about work that is demanding i dont find that to be a problem in anyway.
I did just count that not clearly opened NON-salary OPEX components which adds up to more than 4000 euros/month/person is quite high for these expenses.
Salaries are not problem here. And maybe even not other expenses, it was just pointed out that NON-salary components could be disclosed more specifically.
Best regads,
Hans Govenius
Lähettäjä: David Ponzone <david.ponzone@ipeva.fr <mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>> Lähetetty: torstai 12. huhtikuuta 2018 15.57 Vastaanottaja: Hans Govenius <Hans.Govenius@devnet.fi <mailto:Hans.Govenius@devnet.fi>> Kopio: Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com <mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>>; members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>; agm@ripe.net <mailto:agm@ripe.net> Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Sorry, my mistake, 3125€ per month per staff (4000/1,28). The net income remains around 2500€.
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Le 12 avr. 2018 à 14:55, David Ponzone a écrit :
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.
I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000.
David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr <mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr> tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34
Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr <blocked::http://www.ipeva.fr/> - www.ipeva-studio.com <blocked::http://www.ipeva-studio.com/>
Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur.
Le 12 avr. 2018 à 12:01, Hans Govenius a écrit :
Hello
There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations.
Best regards,
Hans Govenius
Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> Puolesta Aleksey Bulgakov Lähetetty: keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 Kopio: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>; agm@ripe.net <mailto:agm@ripe.net> Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Dear, Axel.
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>>: Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do... <https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-documents/supporting-documents>
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net <mailto:agm@ripe.net>>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/ <https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/>
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
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I even dare to say the amount may be even lower, because of dutch tax system. All in all, it's NOT much. On Thu, Apr 12, 2018, at 14:57, David Ponzone wrote:
Sorry, my mistake, 3125€ per month per staff (4000/1,28). The net income remains around 2500€.
David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34
Service Client IPeva
tel: 0811 46 26 26
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*Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. ***IPeva*** décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur.*> **
Le 12 avr. 2018 à 14:55, David Ponzone a écrit :
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income.>> And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.>> I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000.
David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34
Service Client IPeva
tel: 0811 46 26 26
_www.ipeva.fr[3]_ - _www.ipeva-studio.com[4]_ __
*Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. ***IPeva*** décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur.*>> **
Le 12 avr. 2018 à 12:01, Hans Govenius a écrit :
Hello
There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations.>>> Best regards,
Hans Govenius
*Lähettäjä:* members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> *Puolesta *Aleksey Bulgakov *Lähetetty:* keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 *Kopio:* members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net *Aihe:* Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019>>> Dear, Axel.
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?>>> ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz>:
Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail.com>>> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/david.ponzone%40ipeva.fr>>>
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<david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>:
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.
I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€
So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow. What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.
On 04/12/2018 05:14 PM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow.
What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.
It's not only about staff salaries. There's no quarantee, that such migration doesn't affect service quality. Cheaper staff doens't always mean better job. Also there may be some other (hidden) costs. Also there're so many questions related to legal aspects of such migration. I *don't* support such idea. There's no deep analysis mentioning pros and cons provided by author of this idea. With regards, Daniel
On 12/04/2018 21:57, Daniel Suchy wrote: Rather than us micromanaging the RIPE NCC management, it should be the memberships responsibility to determine a cap on total salaries. The number can be based on number of employees, CoL increases, non-profit organizational status, etc. And we are *not* moving the office or staff. [Side note: The annual report will not open using Foxit Reader 9.0, but does open in Adobe Reader] Finally, I would have liked to see the financial report (and parts of the annual report) without a grey background on every page, which when printed causes a huge amount of extra ink to be wasted. Also, the entire idea of using grey lettering on a grey background may be the current fad, but makes for extreme difficulty in reading. Regards, Hank
On 04/12/2018 05:14 PM, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow.
What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation. It's not only about staff salaries. There's no quarantee, that such migration doesn't affect service quality. Cheaper staff doens't always mean better job. Also there may be some other (hidden) costs.
Also there're so many questions related to legal aspects of such migration.
I *don't* support such idea. There's no deep analysis mentioning pros and cons provided by author of this idea.
With regards, Daniel
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/hank%40efes.iucc.ac.i...
Must be some joke (i hope at least). Russia does not have staff needs available unless you pay excessive (skilled are in fact leaving anyway, we have a bunch of Russians working from Cyprus nowadays), Russia is not politically stable (a stable autocracy is not politically stable overall) and the currency fluctuates between basically worthless and entirely worthless. Government control is excessive, freedom of business is low, growth is low, legal security is nil.... plus one more round of UN sanctions could cut off any RIPE member from paying invoices entirely. Russia is in no way suitable for RIPE (and in fact, Bulgaria has less tax than Russia anyway + a much more simple tax system + EU). In case of no joke... after speaking with some LIRs we'll boycott any attempts to move the NCC out of the EU and i assume from the statutes this requires a full member vote which is extremely unlikely to pass for Russia (or in practice anyone else). -- William Weber On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 01:39, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: : AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff. I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€ So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow. What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.
Thumb up, no support from our site for any relocation attempts. Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message -------- From: William <william@william.si> Date: 13/04/2018 07:54 (GMT+01:00) To: Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net, agm@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Must be some joke (i hope at least). Russia does not have staff needs available unless you pay excessive (skilled are in fact leaving anyway, we have a bunch of Russians working from Cyprus nowadays), Russia is not politically stable (a stable autocracy is not politically stable overall) and the currency fluctuates between basically worthless and entirely worthless. Government control is excessive, freedom of business is low, growth is low, legal security is nil.... plus one more round of UN sanctions could cut off any RIPE member from paying invoices entirely. Russia is in no way suitable for RIPE (and in fact, Bulgaria has less tax than Russia anyway + a much more simple tax system + EU). In case of no joke... after speaking with some LIRs we'll boycott any attempts to move the NCC out of the EU and i assume from the statutes this requires a full member vote which is extremely unlikely to pass for Russia (or in practice anyone else). -- William Weber On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 01:39, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> wrote: <david.ponzone@ipeva.fr<mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>>: AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff. I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€ So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow. What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation. NTT Security GmbH Registergericht: AG München HRB 227018 Geschäftsführer: Frank Brandenburg, Clive Lewis NTT Security (Germany) GmbH Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRB 147654 Geschäftsführer: Frank Brandenburg, Clive Lewis NTT Security (Germany) Services GmbH Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRB 139273 Geschäftsführer: Frank Brandenburg Registered office:Robert-Bürkle-Str. 3 85737 Ismaning Please note that: This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.
William, while I don't feel competent enough to comment on the first part of your reply, I fully second the last paragraph! Oliver. Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von William Gesendet: Freitag, 13. April 2018 02:16 An: Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Must be some joke (i hope at least). Russia does not have staff needs available unless you pay excessive (skilled are in fact leaving anyway, we have a bunch of Russians working from Cyprus nowadays), Russia is not politically stable (a stable autocracy is not politically stable overall) and the currency fluctuates between basically worthless and entirely worthless. Government control is excessive, freedom of business is low, growth is low, legal security is nil.... plus one more round of UN sanctions could cut off any RIPE member from paying invoices entirely. Russia is in no way suitable for RIPE (and in fact, Bulgaria has less tax than Russia anyway + a much more simple tax system + EU). In case of no joke... after speaking with some LIRs we'll boycott any attempts to move the NCC out of the EU and i assume from the statutes this requires a full member vote which is extremely unlikely to pass for Russia (or in practice anyone else). -- William Weber On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 01:39, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com<mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>> wrote: <david.ponzone@ipeva.fr<mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>>: AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff. I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€ So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow. What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.
As my grandfather use to say. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I know it makes everyone feel good to have these pointless discussions and if that's what it takes by all means continue on, I do find them entertaining, but please, join reality. End of the day this is business, it costs money. Considering no rate increases and the fact that most years we've had a surplus so who cares if they blow a little money on hookers and coke, it's ok. RIPE provides us a good, reliable service and prompt turn around time on any requests. As someone else has said, try working with other RIRs. Anyways, carry on. On 04/13/2018 02:03 AM, Huf Oliver, CI-A Rolls-Royce Power Systems AG wrote:
William,
while I don't feel competent enough to comment on the first part of your reply, I fully second the last paragraph!
Oliver.
*Von:* members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *Im Auftrag von *William *Gesendet:* Freitag, 13. April 2018 02:16 *An:* Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net *Betreff:* Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Must be some joke (i hope at least).
Russia does not have staff needs available unless you pay excessive (skilled are in fact leaving anyway, we have a bunch of Russians working from Cyprus nowadays), Russia is not politically stable (a stable autocracy is not politically stable overall) and the currency fluctuates between basically worthless and entirely worthless.
Government control is excessive, freedom of business is low, growth is low, legal security is nil.... plus one more round of UN sanctions could cut off any RIPE member from paying invoices entirely.
Russia is in no way suitable for RIPE (and in fact, Bulgaria has less tax than Russia anyway + a much more simple tax system + EU).
In case of no joke... after speaking with some LIRs we'll boycott any attempts to move the NCC out of the EU and i assume from the statutes this requires a full member vote which is extremely unlikely to pass for Russia (or in practice anyone else).
--
William Weber
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 01:39, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com <mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>> wrote:
<david.ponzone@ipeva.fr <mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>>:
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income.
And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.
I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€
So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow.
What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/daniel%40privatesyste...
Whomever 104.254.252.60 & 2a04:a9c0::42 are, that's not very nice trying to unsubscribe me from this list :) On 04/13/2018 06:32 AM, Daniel Pearson wrote:
As my grandfather use to say. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
I know it makes everyone feel good to have these pointless discussions and if that's what it takes by all means continue on, I do find them entertaining, but please, join reality. End of the day this is business, it costs money. Considering no rate increases and the fact that most years we've had a surplus so who cares if they blow a little money on hookers and coke, it's ok. RIPE provides us a good, reliable service and prompt turn around time on any requests. As someone else has said, try working with other RIRs.
Anyways, carry on.
On 04/13/2018 02:03 AM, Huf Oliver, CI-A Rolls-Royce Power Systems AG wrote:
William,
while I don't feel competent enough to comment on the first part of your reply, I fully second the last paragraph!
Oliver.
*Von:* members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *Im Auftrag von *William *Gesendet:* Freitag, 13. April 2018 02:16 *An:* Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net *Betreff:* Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Must be some joke (i hope at least).
Russia does not have staff needs available unless you pay excessive (skilled are in fact leaving anyway, we have a bunch of Russians working from Cyprus nowadays), Russia is not politically stable (a stable autocracy is not politically stable overall) and the currency fluctuates between basically worthless and entirely worthless.
Government control is excessive, freedom of business is low, growth is low, legal security is nil.... plus one more round of UN sanctions could cut off any RIPE member from paying invoices entirely.
Russia is in no way suitable for RIPE (and in fact, Bulgaria has less tax than Russia anyway + a much more simple tax system + EU).
In case of no joke... after speaking with some LIRs we'll boycott any attempts to move the NCC out of the EU and i assume from the statutes this requires a full member vote which is extremely unlikely to pass for Russia (or in practice anyone else).
--
William Weber
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 01:39, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com <mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>> wrote:
<david.ponzone@ipeva.fr <mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>>:
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income.
And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.
I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€
So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow.
What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe:https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/daniel%40privatesyste...
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/daniel%40privatesyste...
Goodness, someone must be really bored to continue to 'try' and spam me with unsubscribe requests and password resets. (p.s. mail filters work wonders) Oh well will give the abuse departments of these IP ranges and transit providers something to do: 80.243.40.25 185.191.248.15 77.106.190.72 104.254.252.50 104.254.252.60 188.29.165.127 164.215.32.116 2a04:a9c0::42 On 04/13/2018 07:28 AM, Daniel Pearson wrote:
Whomever 104.254.252.60 & 2a04:a9c0::42 are, that's not very nice trying to unsubscribe me from this list :)
On 04/13/2018 06:32 AM, Daniel Pearson wrote:
As my grandfather use to say. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
I know it makes everyone feel good to have these pointless discussions and if that's what it takes by all means continue on, I do find them entertaining, but please, join reality. End of the day this is business, it costs money. Considering no rate increases and the fact that most years we've had a surplus so who cares if they blow a little money on hookers and coke, it's ok. RIPE provides us a good, reliable service and prompt turn around time on any requests. As someone else has said, try working with other RIRs.
Anyways, carry on.
On 04/13/2018 02:03 AM, Huf Oliver, CI-A Rolls-Royce Power Systems AG wrote:
William,
while I don't feel competent enough to comment on the first part of your reply, I fully second the last paragraph!
Oliver.
*Von:* members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *Im Auftrag von *William *Gesendet:* Freitag, 13. April 2018 02:16 *An:* Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net *Betreff:* Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Must be some joke (i hope at least).
Russia does not have staff needs available unless you pay excessive (skilled are in fact leaving anyway, we have a bunch of Russians working from Cyprus nowadays), Russia is not politically stable (a stable autocracy is not politically stable overall) and the currency fluctuates between basically worthless and entirely worthless.
Government control is excessive, freedom of business is low, growth is low, legal security is nil.... plus one more round of UN sanctions could cut off any RIPE member from paying invoices entirely.
Russia is in no way suitable for RIPE (and in fact, Bulgaria has less tax than Russia anyway + a much more simple tax system + EU).
In case of no joke... after speaking with some LIRs we'll boycott any attempts to move the NCC out of the EU and i assume from the statutes this requires a full member vote which is extremely unlikely to pass for Russia (or in practice anyone else).
--
William Weber
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 01:39, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com <mailto:aleksbulgakov@gmail.com>> wrote:
<david.ponzone@ipeva.fr <mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>>:
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income.
And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.
I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€
So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow.
What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe:https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/daniel%40privatesyste...
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On 13/04/2018 17:29, Daniel Pearson wrote:
Goodness, someone must be really bored to continue to 'try' and spam me with unsubscribe requests and password resets. (p.s. mail filters work wonders)
Oh well will give the abuse departments of these IP ranges and transit providers something to do:
80.243.40.25
185.191.248.15
77.106.190.72
104.254.252.50
104.254.252.60
188.29.165.127
164.215.32.116
2a04:a9c0::42
Ditto. I got from these as well: 88.220.134.142 185.43.249.70 151.237.48.3 -Hank
Hello, Great idea! You are welcome in Saint-Petersburg. )) Not only Russia good place for relocation. I also know other countries with strong IT society, were profit may be better, eg Belarus. On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 15:14:43 +0000 Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> wrote:
<david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>:
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.
I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€
So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow.
What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.
-- Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru>
Hi all, I'd like to contribute to this discussion. I believe that when it comes to save the money, moving organization always leads to some things * moving organization is very expensive itself * if moving is becouse of cost saving, there will be *always* big drop of quality of services, we can see it on many other companies I believe there is a lot of experts in Ripe NCC and they must be appropriately paid. If Ripe NCC needs more finances for it's staff or projects etc, I'm for increasing the charge. It's the most effective way to solve the problem. We also don't want to move such important organization beouse of cost savings. We want progress, new projects, better performance and more secure and free internet and that is no cheap tasks. If Ripe need more financess, create some finance analysis and then rise up the charge. On 12.4.2018 17:14, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
<david.ponzone@ipeva.fr <mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>>:
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.
I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€
So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow.
What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/robert.vojcik%40lives...
-- Robert Vojčík, Systems Specialist +420 733 351 088 robert.vojcik@livesport.eu Livesport s.r.o. Aspira Business Centre Bucharova 2928/14a, 158 00 Praha 13 www.livesport.eu
Dear All, With respect to all, I received a lot of emails on moving the service and unfortunately I read few of them only. I strongly agree with below comments made by Robert, my concern is “ the Service” my point is very clear that the Service is most important for my organization & in deed for all of us. Therefor my understanding is not to compromise to move the organization only for low expenses. It’s all about finance and expenses, so surely there will be a way to come out of this situation and we all will support to fix this issue. Regard’s [Description: SP-Logo] Engr. Jaleel Ahmed B.E. CCIE(W), HCIE(W), APMG, ITIL(v3) IT-Infrastructure Department Office: +966 1 2897109 Mobile: +966 506878379 Email: jahmed@sp.com.sa<mailto:jahmed@sp.com.sa> P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need it From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Robert Vojcik Sent: 16 April 2018 11:05 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Hi all, I'd like to contribute to this discussion. I believe that when it comes to save the money, moving organization always leads to some things * moving organization is very expensive itself * if moving is becouse of cost saving, there will be always big drop of quality of services, we can see it on many other companies I believe there is a lot of experts in Ripe NCC and they must be appropriately paid. If Ripe NCC needs more finances for it's staff or projects etc, I'm for increasing the charge. It's the most effective way to solve the problem. We also don't want to move such important organization beouse of cost savings. We want progress, new projects, better performance and more secure and free internet and that is no cheap tasks. If Ripe need more financess, create some finance analysis and then rise up the charge. On 12.4.2018 17:14, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: <david.ponzone@ipeva.fr<mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>>: AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff. I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€ So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow. What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation. _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1TgXsPxEIf2tYV2N5xE7Id4CNRFrqRH0SUyn-8juKI3h0S6OQl_0KmW7olREsT3eUhUeffxjl1jNxLmRqKmi32SjHqe6G6gh_ZXd367j7THtHnEVm4EtIBqCeqrXLanQLy6W1N38HirNKCEsZ5_esbbkFcyvyU1sfVJUJn9FPVVwoxMAEfizADJXO1LlLGBDc_HRW5-uRO4jj0lmSig6zApfpUeKpj8pCwUBuyxoCpz6e9G_usCesWJoNBlf2kOZbEbprmeFqrzqhBfWEy49lIQ/https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss<https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Z5DC_5LNXVchE0RAIbFK4XcnqPTWR8MufcXBcDSKMTOI-SC4lg_cXSMhiuO7lBgIbHJQdwvmGCe8hazaiyG7xfa5bYgVyn0AGoPefgzFRtS_Oy0HcUVJwjrABQgCcohfvz6wHu7Sqrv4QzajHyHupvnolfVHuyy2PI5h4oFEoVMjUBe88dtT3-2jZv1nLAX32wpwyy0u2DuFX4FWUfKphc_x-bGeKQ4jO90U1ovqSLsdpYpwKk5wPdhP3Byx6iGZ9n9OORJbWtzhchIeng53kA/https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss> Unsubscribe: https://secure-web.cisco.com/1mgtdrdkdko5wT6IIJ1_lWUTn1-xqdBDGILJCtz8Sf9jsbVNxtut0WoxGzzRhx8gIiWIbUsxu-L3z3lwM5oBdBx0yCS4w3y0GNEuHz5XpeP_1Ipdr5IjfMEAA6gbwXyqZhdJQ7tEaumcpLbTp3v8ZVOZ0LfpwykKDq25dkhHCzCJ-GbolhzaOi5cEcMi8yt9DwLRAm2SOYibOdFyHuMtxbiRqqh0c63Y25Em-HDiiFYBGAPKTRfmUh_L1t6be3ciJ7Mlyyd1QQpN5Z1jl1HffUA/https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Frobert.vojcik%2540livesport.eu<https://secure-web.cisco.com/1hdiNuR94g0wQ27b7XNF-n74ue2DT7mAyLyoUl-8SWsJ03HVApJEg8Hh23aG5Xpk6stk1jRE5aZozwPkzENnoDN2zr4NZ-643BzNjIXJ7KBXLJhY_kdUob744aPdIfh6sUwo3fALyAUFirz638lFbqjcfhfbPETcN49NhQvyauQDp-Pl7D93Y0XQTMouykUCelCqEypqE7peSZqRZMbUvsKDCpxZPG1l-TeEt3JGDjYJxMz1Dtnijpt2VVSwRljykLXiezjHahbFlqI6P2XTBYQ/https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Frobert.vojcik%2540livesport.eu> -- Robert Vojčík, Systems Specialist +420 733 351 088 robert.vojcik@livesport.eu<mailto:robert.vojcik@livesport.eu> Livesport s.r.o. Aspira Business Centre Bucharova 2928/14a, 158 00 Praha 13 http://secure-web.cisco.com/1DSKXPExzD9Ccg58WrcyDqbnZD_7MKZEdWP-nw945dDLz70T7P6nt731lz9FxVv-YCe12ftoUONcpNe5AnxNikgcZt0OdqdPq-60U-_Cei901roJSWAvOXA2FzrLV05WfeZpJIOTyxZ1_LDNZmXSFWZ64tsv_9MBlSzjWCguVXLlKMCq2KPIGtJC6sUtKbj9FB2kdJgEcQD3I4i9T6oHdP-8CxzA6rWeYAIs5ulKMuG6HUvd0EYCe2OfpLlwdW5lolZDFKXZjjF42ow0oKv7mUQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livesport.eu<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1FiWe2n9GgUb65S9JyYjkfx4lLJcyvW1W00dIEykua3-7XC8kAXSMNwyKirFfpxfWFE4X9tzbq1atvHp6tj1uNffqEq4H7beC7Bn9DykyxYTe7jRBsAoY8B9tTiPoWWDVgk5wIAHyXPDpoTobuIVNDToAEzO6PvIJaQCLwI2bwpCZlspzpWzU9EvCiBO6ZPwewhCX9wrKkX2ZrgKecu_FqQkD6yVSFvHQ02mpDLhLbeD6CGtdbSoRuScHJjl-dFVYgPDt7Z4KhGZuzlyIcxysdQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livesport.eu> ________________________________ Disclaimer: This email has been sent from Saudi Post Organization. The information in this email is considered to be confidential. It is solely intended for the person(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete this email from your system.
For the "movers", 5'ish or how many you are there , just an idea - build your own NCC with blackjack and hooke.. :-) On 16/04/2018 12:38, Jaleel A. Mohammad wrote:
Dear All,
With respect to all, I received a lot of emails on moving the service and unfortunately I read few of them only.
I strongly agree with below comments made by Robert, my concern is “ the Service” my point is very clear that the Service is most important for my organization & in deed for all of us. Therefor my understanding is not to compromise to move the organization only for low expenses.
It’s all about finance and expenses, so surely there will be a way to come out of this situation and we all will support to fix this issue.
Regard’s
Description: SP-Logo
*Engr. Jaleel Ahmed **B.E. CCIE(W), HCIE(W), APMG, ITIL(v3)***
IT-Infrastructure Department
Office: +966 1 2897109
Mobile: +966 506878379
Email: jahmed@sp.com.sa <mailto:jahmed@sp.com.sa>
P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need it
*From:*members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Robert Vojcik *Sent:* 16 April 2018 11:05 *To:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Hi all,
I'd like to contribute to this discussion.
I believe that when it comes to save the money, moving organization always leads to some things
* moving organization is very expensive itself * if moving is becouse of cost saving, there will be *always* big drop of quality of services, we can see it on many other companies
I believe there is a lot of experts in Ripe NCC and they must be appropriately paid.
If Ripe NCC needs more finances for it's staff or projects etc, I'm for increasing the charge. It's the most effective way to solve the problem.
We also don't want to move such important organization beouse of cost savings. We want progress, new projects, better performance and more secure and free internet and that is no cheap tasks.
If Ripe need more financess, create some finance analysis and then rise up the charge.
On 12.4.2018 17:14, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
<david.ponzone@ipeva.fr <mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>>:
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income.
And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.
I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€
So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow.
What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.
_______________________________________________
members-discuss mailing list
members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>
https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss <https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Z5DC_5LNXVchE0RAIbFK4XcnqPTWR8MufcXBcDSKMTOI-SC4lg_cXSMhiuO7lBgIbHJQdwvmGCe8hazaiyG7xfa5bYgVyn0AGoPefgzFRtS_Oy0HcUVJwjrABQgCcohfvz6wHu7Sqrv4QzajHyHupvnolfVHuyy2PI5h4oFEoVMjUBe88dtT3-2jZv1nLAX32wpwyy0u2DuFX4FWUfKphc_x-bGeKQ4jO90U1ovqSLsdpYpwKk5wPdhP3Byx6iGZ9n9OORJbWtzhchIeng53kA/https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss>
Unsubscribe:https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/robert.vojcik%40lives... <https://secure-web.cisco.com/1hdiNuR94g0wQ27b7XNF-n74ue2DT7mAyLyoUl-8SWsJ03HVApJEg8Hh23aG5Xpk6stk1jRE5aZozwPkzENnoDN2zr4NZ-643BzNjIXJ7KBXLJhY_kdUob744aPdIfh6sUwo3fALyAUFirz638lFbqjcfhfbPETcN49NhQvyauQDp-Pl7D93Y0XQTMouykUCelCqEypqE7peSZqRZMbUvsKDCpxZPG1l-TeEt3JGDjYJxMz1Dtnijpt2VVSwRljykLXiezjHahbFlqI6P2XTBYQ/https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Frobert.vojcik%2540livesport.eu>
-- Robert Vojčík, Systems Specialist
+420 733 351 088 robert.vojcik@livesport.eu <mailto:robert.vojcik@livesport.eu>
Livesport s.r.o. Aspira Business Centre Bucharova 2928/14a, 158 00 Praha 13 www.livesport.eu <http://secure-web.cisco.com/1FiWe2n9GgUb65S9JyYjkfx4lLJcyvW1W00dIEykua3-7XC8kAXSMNwyKirFfpxfWFE4X9tzbq1atvHp6tj1uNffqEq4H7beC7Bn9DykyxYTe7jRBsAoY8B9tTiPoWWDVgk5wIAHyXPDpoTobuIVNDToAEzO6PvIJaQCLwI2bwpCZlspzpWzU9EvCiBO6ZPwewhCX9wrKkX2ZrgKecu_FqQkD6yVSFvHQ02mpDLhLbeD6CGtdbSoRuScHJjl-dFVYgPDt7Z4KhGZuzlyIcxysdQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livesport.eu>
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_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/jj%40streamnetworks.l...
Janis, good idea. Do you need new job? ;) I understand position EU people, I ask you try to look on this eyes of people in Eastern Europe or Arab Region. You have all the levers of control, we are nothing. Many are mistakenly think, that in these regions the service will be bad. Nobody to talk about move all RINE NCC, let's do few steps towards each other and crete new eg technical/support/developer office in CIS/Arab region. Everything is discussed. On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:38:28 +0300 Janis Jaunosans <jj@streamnetworks.lv> wrote:
For the "movers", 5'ish or how many you are there , just an idea - build your own NCC with blackjack and hooke.. :-)
On 16/04/2018 12:38, Jaleel A. Mohammad wrote:
Dear All,
With respect to all, I received a lot of emails on moving the service and unfortunately I read few of them only.
I strongly agree with below comments made by Robert, my concern is “ the Service” my point is very clear that the Service is most important for my organization & in deed for all of us. Therefor my understanding is not to compromise to move the organization only for low expenses.
It’s all about finance and expenses, so surely there will be a way to come out of this situation and we all will support to fix this issue.
Regard’s
Description: SP-Logo
*Engr. Jaleel Ahmed **B.E. CCIE(W), HCIE(W), APMG, ITIL(v3)***
IT-Infrastructure Department
Office: +966 1 2897109
Mobile: +966 506878379
Email: jahmed@sp.com.sa <mailto:jahmed@sp.com.sa>
P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need it
*From:*members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Robert Vojcik *Sent:* 16 April 2018 11:05 *To:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Hi all,
I'd like to contribute to this discussion.
I believe that when it comes to save the money, moving organization always leads to some things
* moving organization is very expensive itself * if moving is becouse of cost saving, there will be *always* big drop of quality of services, we can see it on many other companies
I believe there is a lot of experts in Ripe NCC and they must be appropriately paid.
If Ripe NCC needs more finances for it's staff or projects etc, I'm for increasing the charge. It's the most effective way to solve the problem.
We also don't want to move such important organization beouse of cost savings. We want progress, new projects, better performance and more secure and free internet and that is no cheap tasks.
If Ripe need more financess, create some finance analysis and then rise up the charge.
On 12.4.2018 17:14, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
<david.ponzone@ipeva.fr <mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>>:
AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income.
And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff.
I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€
So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow.
What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.
_______________________________________________
members-discuss mailing list
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Hi all, I barely engage in such discussions on mailing lists, but... Am 17.04.18 um 16:22 schrieb Alexandr Gurbo: I understand position EU people, I ask you try to look on this eyes of people in Eastern Europe or Arab Region. You have all the levers of control, we are nothing. I dare to call this not true. RIPE is clearly steered by membership, and every member has the same rights and powers. The change in the structure of the members (especially referring to their country of origin) has been reflected in the locations of the RIPE meetings at least since 2006, with more and more "eastern" cities also hosting such (Istanbul, Tallinn, Dubai, Prague, Ljubljana, Warsaw, Bucharest, Budapest). Many are mistakenly think, that in these regions the service will be bad. Nobody to talk about move all RINE NCC, let's do few steps towards each other and crete new eg technical/support/developer office in CIS/Arab region. Everything is discussed. The location of RIPE itself and the RIPE NCC is obviously due to historical reasons, and it's "known good" - so why change it. Cost efficiency is clearly a valid argument, and of course cost of employment is (at the moment) much lower in certain countries than in the Netherlands/Amsterdam. Still, it is not a convincing argument from my POV. Having people together on one site compared to a distributed setup always wins from a productivity POV. Having people in an area (time zone, e.g.) where the majority of the members is sitting, has clear advantages. See https://labs.ripe.net/statistics/lirs-by-region and https://labs.ripe.net/statistics/membership-by-country Transforming a well-running, single-site organisation to a distributed org which would include replacing significant numbers of staff who are in many cases with the org for many years involves tremendous effort and cost that you for quite sure underestimate. And again, the question is: Why? For what benefit? Just for the sake of squeezing the (rather insignificant) membership fees down? I don't see the point. Cheers, Malte (speaking for himself only. My employer might or might not share this opinion.) -- Malte von dem Hagen | Director Global Backbone malte@godaddy.com<mailto:malte@godaddy.com> Office: Hansestrasse 79, 51149 Cologne [cid:part1.09CEB00F.8099A28E@godaddy.com]<http://www.godaddy.com/> GoDaddy Deutschand GmbH - http://www.godaddy.de Hansestrasse 111 - 51149 Köln - Germany HRB 78934 Amtsgericht Köln Geschäftsführer: Patrick Pulvermüller, Tobias Mohr, Dr. Christian Koch, Dr. Andreas Palm GoDaddy Deutschand GmbH is a company of GoDaddy
Hi, On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 08:18:55AM +0300, Alexandr Gurbo wrote:
Janis, good idea. Do you need new job? ;)
I understand position EU people, I ask you try to look on this eyes of people in Eastern Europe or Arab Region. You have all the levers of control, we are nothing. Many are mistakenly think, that in these regions the service will be bad. Nobody to talk about move all RINE NCC, let's do few steps towards each other and crete new eg technical/support/developer office in CIS/Arab region. Everything is discussed.
There is a RIPE NCC office in Dubai already. Arab covered. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
On 4/17/2018 17:30, Gert Doering wrote:
There is a RIPE NCC office in Dubai already. Arab covered.
And it also explains those 7mio in question. Case closed ;) br, Primoz Jeroncic Senior aquarist ----------------------------------------------------------- Softnet d.o.o. | Borovec 2 tel: +386 1 8100100 | The longer I run, SI-1236 Trzin primoz(at)softnet.si | the smaller the Slovenia http://www.softnet.si| problems become. -----------------------------------------------------------
Janis, good idea. Do you need new job? ;)
I understand position EU people, I ask you try to look on this eyes of
Hi people, I´m one of those new and small LIRs. For a while I´m reading this discussion and I can´t understand some arguments here. It seems that this is really just about shrinking fees for a membership. I can understand that point in some way since all members pay the same although old LIRs may have extraordinary higher allocations than a simple /22. But well, first come, first served. Though you should consider that an own /22 allocation as LIR still brings advantages compared to renting a /22 from any other LIR. It is still cheaper and I consider the signup fee as an investment. Further those IPs are "your" IPs, you can bring/route them to wherever you want. Further don´t forget that you still get a big IPv6 allocation which will most likely cover all needs in future as IPv6 will be our standard someday. And even for small LIRs like me those prices are affordable. Honestly, I don´t have a deep insight into the organsation but I don´t see any problems in how it currently works in my perspective. Never change a running system ;) Greetings, Thomas -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Gert Doering Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. April 2018 17:30 An: Alexandr Gurbo <a.gurbo@severen.ru> Cc: Janis Jaunosans <jj@streamnetworks.lv>; members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Hi, On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 08:18:55AM +0300, Alexandr Gurbo wrote: people in Eastern Europe or Arab Region. You have all the levers of control, we are nothing. Many are mistakenly think, that in these regions the service will be bad. Nobody to talk about move all RINE NCC, let's do few steps towards each other and crete new eg technical/support/developer office in CIS/Arab region. Everything is discussed.
There is a RIPE NCC office in Dubai already. Arab covered. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hello This discussion sidetracked to salaries and even to moving of Ripe to other country. I atleast would not support such idea as its very rare to do that successfully and salaries and other expenses are always related to the ”level” where particular country is and that is always part of the equation. One cant expect to have same level of political and judical stability in a developing country than in a country like Netherlands. (Just want to clarify so that no one got impression that I was supporting this) Interesting part in my opinion is for members to understand where investments are made. I think this was the idea of the discussion in the beginning. We have indeed a situation where it would be bad idea to decrease membership fees because demand and supply is also affecting this part of the question. Therefore it is quite hard do decrease income of RIPE. Rather pricing should be increased. Instead of discussing decreasing funding or moving RIPE it would be more important to discuss where money want to be spent. It is true that this part is allready partly done but the discussion did arise from rather large expenses that where not very openly documented. But afterwards Axel also did provide link to the budget and that did open again more of the expenses. One thing is also to have a 10-20 year plan because soon new membership fees will end as IPV4 is exhausted. This means that the redistribution of profits will end and there seems to be no policy of getting huge buffer of funds to cover the future. In my opinion it might be even better to increase buffers, increase membership fees and make the major financial contributions to specific areas voted most important by the members. But i also agree that in general micromanagement by a email list is not going to work but its good to have refreshing discussion of the topics. And there is a yearly meeting also where these things can be addressed 😊 Best regareds, Hans Govenius DevNet Oy Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Puolesta Jaleel A. Mohammad Lähetetty: maanantai 16. huhtikuuta 2018 12.38 Vastaanottaja: Robert Vojcik <robert.vojcik@livesport.eu>; members-discuss@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Dear All, With respect to all, I received a lot of emails on moving the service and unfortunately I read few of them only. I strongly agree with below comments made by Robert, my concern is “ the Service” my point is very clear that the Service is most important for my organization & in deed for all of us. Therefor my understanding is not to compromise to move the organization only for low expenses. It’s all about finance and expenses, so surely there will be a way to come out of this situation and we all will support to fix this issue. Regard’s [Description: SP-Logo] Engr. Jaleel Ahmed B.E. CCIE(W), HCIE(W), APMG, ITIL(v3) IT-Infrastructure Department Office: +966 1 2897109 Mobile: +966 506878379 Email: jahmed@sp.com.sa<mailto:jahmed@sp.com.sa> P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need it From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Robert Vojcik Sent: 16 April 2018 11:05 To: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 Hi all, I'd like to contribute to this discussion. I believe that when it comes to save the money, moving organization always leads to some things * moving organization is very expensive itself * if moving is becouse of cost saving, there will be always big drop of quality of services, we can see it on many other companies I believe there is a lot of experts in Ripe NCC and they must be appropriately paid. If Ripe NCC needs more finances for it's staff or projects etc, I'm for increasing the charge. It's the most effective way to solve the problem. We also don't want to move such important organization beouse of cost savings. We want progress, new projects, better performance and more secure and free internet and that is no cheap tasks. If Ripe need more financess, create some finance analysis and then rise up the charge. On 12.4.2018 17:14, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: <david.ponzone@ipeva.fr<mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr>>: AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff. I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€ So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow. What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation. _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss<https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Z5DC_5LNXVchE0RAIbFK4XcnqPTWR8MufcXBcDSKMTOI-SC4lg_cXSMhiuO7lBgIbHJQdwvmGCe8hazaiyG7xfa5bYgVyn0AGoPefgzFRtS_Oy0HcUVJwjrABQgCcohfvz6wHu7Sqrv4QzajHyHupvnolfVHuyy2PI5h4oFEoVMjUBe88dtT3-2jZv1nLAX32wpwyy0u2DuFX4FWUfKphc_x-bGeKQ4jO90U1ovqSLsdpYpwKk5wPdhP3Byx6iGZ9n9OORJbWtzhchIeng53kA/https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/robert.vojcik%40livesport.eu<https://secure-web.cisco.com/1hdiNuR94g0wQ27b7XNF-n74ue2DT7mAyLyoUl-8SWsJ03HVApJEg8Hh23aG5Xpk6stk1jRE5aZozwPkzENnoDN2zr4NZ-643BzNjIXJ7KBXLJhY_kdUob744aPdIfh6sUwo3fALyAUFirz638lFbqjcfhfbPETcN49NhQvyauQDp-Pl7D93Y0XQTMouykUCelCqEypqE7peSZqRZMbUvsKDCpxZPG1l-TeEt3JGDjYJxMz1Dtnijpt2VVSwRljykLXiezjHahbFlqI6P2XTBYQ/https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Frobert.vojcik%2540livesport.eu> -- Robert Vojčík, Systems Specialist +420 733 351 088 robert.vojcik@livesport.eu<mailto:robert.vojcik@livesport.eu> Livesport s.r.o. 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Welcome to Poland. 1k eur per person, including all social costs. Wysłane z urządzenia android. -----Original Message----- From: David Ponzone <david.ponzone@ipeva.fr> To: Hans Govenius <Hans.Govenius@devnet.fi> Cc: "agm@ripe.net" <agm@ripe.net>, "members-discuss@ripe.net" <members-discuss@ripe.net> Sent: czw., 12 kwi 2018 21:54 Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff. I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000. David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34 Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr - www.ipeva-studio.com Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur. Le 12 avr. 2018 à 12:01, Hans Govenius a écrit :
Hello
There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations.
Best regards,
Hans Govenius
Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Puolesta Aleksey Bulgakov Lähetetty: keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 Kopio: members-discuss@ripe.net; agm@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
Dear, Axel.
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz>: Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The following important documents are now online:
- RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
The full list of supporting documents is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net>.
We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
We previously announced that publication of these documents would take place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
Best regards,
Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmail... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/david.ponzone%40ipeva...
Dear Aleksey and all, The Executive Board concluded that the existing charging scheme model provides the most equality between members, matches the organisation governance model best and is the simplest model. Janos is also right to mention that the sign-up fee covers much more than the initial paperwork. More details on the RIPE NCC's activities and their associated costs can be found in the RIPE NCC Activity Plan and Budget 2018: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-693 We are always interested to hear what the members think is the right charging scheme model to use. We will follow discussions here and of course at the General Meeting in May where we will present on the Charging Scheme 2019 in more detail and where members can vote whether or not to approve the proposed charging scheme. Best regards, Axel On 11/04/2018 17:51, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
Dear, Axel.
Thank you for your report.
But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive?
ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>>:
Dear Axel,
Thank you for publishing the reports.
It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM:
> Dear RIPE NCC members,
> The following important documents are now online:
> - RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 > - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 > - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
> All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting > (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to > approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM.
> The full list of supporting documents is available at: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-do...
> If you have any feedback, please email <agm@ripe.net <mailto:agm@ripe.net>>.
> We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on > these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will > take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those > who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille.
> We previously announced that publication of these documents would take > place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay.
> All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to > register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/
> Best regards,
> Axel Pawlik > Managing Director > RIPE NCC
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
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participants (35)
-
"R. Engür Pişirici" -
Aleksey Bulgakov -
Alex Lobachov -
Alexandr Gurbo -
Axel Pawlik -
Bunea Petru -
Bunea TELECOM
-
Daniel Pearson -
Daniel Suchy -
David Ponzone -
Efe Cakinberk -
Emre Öğütcen -
Engür Rıza Pişirici
-
Floris Bos -
Gert Doering -
Hank Nussbacher -
Hans Govenius -
Huf Oliver, CI-A Rolls-Royce Power Systems AG -
info＠cowmedia.de -
Jaleel A. Mohammad -
Janis Jaunosans -
Janos Zsako -
John Fitzgerald -
Juri -
Kwalwasser, Thomas W. -
Leopoldo Maestro -
Lu Heng -
malte.von.dem.hagen＠godaddy.com -
Mauricio Schäpers -
Nick Hilliard -
noc＠publicloud.com -
Olivier Warin -
Peter Bin -
piotr＠karwos.hk -
Primoz Jeroncic -
Radu-Adrian Feurdean -
Ramon Amat -
Remigiusz Marcinkiewicz -
Robert Vojcik -
Sascha Luck [ml] -
Serge Bazanski -
Sergey Myasoedov -
Slavey Dishkov -
Stefan Hillert -
Taras Heichenko -
Thomas Schneider -
William