Dear all, Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources? I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way). It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer! And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line. Cheers Michel LANNERS CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81 LU-CIX Management G.I.E. 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu/> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu/> luxembourg-internet-days.com <https://luxembourg-internet-days.com/> lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu/>
At least because large IP holders now have no motivation to release them. The dependence of the contribution on the number of addresses used will give an additional incentive not to keep unnecessary address space. Ср, 10 апр. 2024 г. в 22:59, Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu>:
Dear all,
Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources?
I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way).
It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer!
And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line.
Cheers
*Michel LANNERS* CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81
*LU-CIX Management G.I.E.* 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F <https://www.google.com/maps/search/202,+Z.A.E.+Wolser+F?entry=gmail&source=g> L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu> luxembourg-internet-days.com lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu>
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Hello. Because it solves both purposes - some small motivation for unused “hoarded” IP address space to be distributed back to those who suffer from total lack of them - at least a little bit will go back to market. There are still really A LOT of entities who hoard them not for the purpose of need (now or in future, commercial or not), but ONLY because some time ago v4 distribution was not managed properly. This, per my opinion, should be somehow resolved. - small LIR’s without large clients or subnets should not fund RIPE expensive projects on equal basis with transcontinental corporations. Latter will easily agree on 100x price increase just to knock off anyone else - still not even notice this fee. But existing fee and its increase is more than significant for smaller networks or someone trying to enter market. What I see in proposed schemes is total lack of choice. Let’s not pretend that increase to 1800, increase 1850 or increase to 1900 is actually a choice. It is not! And what I see in this mailing list is that almost everyone agree with this fact. My initial proposal remains the same: 0.1 EUR (adjusted to real RIPE financial needs) per v4 address in use. Absolutely flat and fair. It will be eventually distributed up to the IP end user by supply chain and be totally unnoticeable for them. At least there should be couple of more options in vote if community opinion really counted. Otherwise vote is nonsense, why it is needed at all?
On 10 Apr 2024, at 16:09, Евгений Удовихин <eudovihin@gmail.com> wrote:
At least because large IP holders now have no motivation to release them. The dependence of the contribution on the number of addresses used will give an additional incentive not to keep unnecessary address space.
Ср, 10 апр. 2024 г. в 22:59, Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu>>:
Dear all,
Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources?
I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way).
It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer!
And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line.
Cheers
Michel LANNERS CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu <http://01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu/> Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81
LU-CIX Management G.I.E. 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F <https://www.google.com/maps/search/202,+Z.A.E.+Wolser+F?entry=gmail&source=g> L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu/> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu/> luxembourg-internet-days.com <https://luxembourg-internet-days.com/> lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu/> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/eudovihin%40gmail.com
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IPv4 sells in the private market for anywhere from $40-$50 per address. When a /24 is worth $10,000~ When a /22 is worth $40,000~ When a /20 is worth $162,000~ Do you really think you will motivate someone to give them up by charging 0.1 EUR per address? That's just a fantasy. On 4/10/24 8:34 AM, Mihail Fedorov wrote:
Hello.
Because it solves both purposes
- some small motivation for unused “hoarded” IP address space to be distributed back to those who suffer from total lack of them - at least a little bit will go back to market. There are still really A LOT of entities who hoard them not for the purpose of need (now or in future, commercial or not), but ONLY because some time ago v4 distribution was not managed properly. This, per my opinion, should be somehow resolved.
- small LIR’s without large clients or subnets should not fund RIPE expensive projects on equal basis with transcontinental corporations. Latter will easily agree on 100x price increase just to knock off anyone else - still not even notice this fee. But existing fee and its increase is more than significant for smaller networks or someone trying to enter market.
What I see in proposed schemes is total lack of choice. Let’s not pretend that increase to 1800, increase 1850 or increase to 1900 is actually a choice. It is not! And what I see in this mailing list is that almost everyone agree with this fact.
My initial proposal remains the same: 0.1 EUR (adjusted to real RIPE financial needs) per v4 address in use. Absolutely flat and fair. It will be eventually distributed up to the IP end user by supply chain and be totally unnoticeable for them.
At least there should be couple of more options in vote if community opinion really counted. Otherwise vote is nonsense, why it is needed at all?
On 10 Apr 2024, at 16:09, Евгений Удовихин <eudovihin@gmail.com> wrote:
At least because large IP holders now have no motivation to release them. The dependence of the contribution on the number of addresses used will give an additional incentive not to keep unnecessary address space.
Ср, 10 апр. 2024 г. в 22:59, Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu>:
Dear all,
Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources?
I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way).
It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer!
And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line.
Cheers
*Michel LANNERS* CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu <http://01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu/> Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81 *LU-CIX Management G.I.E.* 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F <https://www.google.com/maps/search/202,+Z.A.E.+Wolser+F?entry=gmail&source=g> L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu/> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu/> luxembourg-internet-days.com <https://luxembourg-internet-days.com/> lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu/>
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Hello. No, that’s a mistaken assumption that anyone expect that addresses will be just freed or returned to RIPE. No one said that (at least not me!). But this will a little bit motivate those who simply don’t need it to go and sell them, affecting market price. Current price is based on fact there between very few to almost none supply in the market. It will just become a little uncomfortable to keep /16 without intent to use them at some point. Im perfectly fine with that result, nothing more needed. BTW, if someone has ability to compose my offer as well as other offers from this mailing list into human readable article or presentation - please DM me, lets do it and present back to people here in normal form, non in form of trashy e-mails.
On 10 Apr 2024, at 16:43, Daniel Pearson <daniel@privatesystems.net> wrote:
IPv4 sells in the private market for anywhere from $40-$50 per address.
When a /24 is worth $10,000~ When a /22 is worth $40,000~ When a /20 is worth $162,000~ Do you really think you will motivate someone to give them up by charging 0.1 EUR per address?
That's just a fantasy.
On 4/10/24 8:34 AM, Mihail Fedorov wrote:
Hello.
Because it solves both purposes
- some small motivation for unused “hoarded” IP address space to be distributed back to those who suffer from total lack of them - at least a little bit will go back to market. There are still really A LOT of entities who hoard them not for the purpose of need (now or in future, commercial or not), but ONLY because some time ago v4 distribution was not managed properly. This, per my opinion, should be somehow resolved.
- small LIR’s without large clients or subnets should not fund RIPE expensive projects on equal basis with transcontinental corporations. Latter will easily agree on 100x price increase just to knock off anyone else - still not even notice this fee. But existing fee and its increase is more than significant for smaller networks or someone trying to enter market.
What I see in proposed schemes is total lack of choice. Let’s not pretend that increase to 1800, increase 1850 or increase to 1900 is actually a choice. It is not! And what I see in this mailing list is that almost everyone agree with this fact.
My initial proposal remains the same: 0.1 EUR (adjusted to real RIPE financial needs) per v4 address in use. Absolutely flat and fair. It will be eventually distributed up to the IP end user by supply chain and be totally unnoticeable for them.
At least there should be couple of more options in vote if community opinion really counted. Otherwise vote is nonsense, why it is needed at all?
On 10 Apr 2024, at 16:09, Евгений Удовихин <eudovihin@gmail.com> <mailto:eudovihin@gmail.com> wrote:
At least because large IP holders now have no motivation to release them. The dependence of the contribution on the number of addresses used will give an additional incentive not to keep unnecessary address space.
Ср, 10 апр. 2024 г. в 22:59, Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu>>:
Dear all,
Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources?
I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way).
It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer!
And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line.
Cheers
Michel LANNERS CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu <http://01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu/> Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81
LU-CIX Management G.I.E. 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F <https://www.google.com/maps/search/202,+Z.A.E.+Wolser+F?entry=gmail&source=g> L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu/> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu/> luxembourg-internet-days.com <https://luxembourg-internet-days.com/> lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu/> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/eudovihin%40gmail.com
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of course, that the fee per IP will change the price in the market. if there is no fee and it does not generate any costs then no one moves it. it's simple when you pay for something you have to consider whether to pay for the resource or sell it currently there are more than 15% of completely unused addresses. and I suppose that another 10% are addresses which, after cleaning up and paying fees, would be redundant or so insignificant that someone would either lease or sell them. Which may end up on the exchange which will result in a drop in price and better availability for all who need IPv4 addresses Translated with DeepL.com (free version) Best Regard’s / Pozdrawiam Gabriel Sulka ------------------------------------------------------------- Firma Handlowo - Usługowa KOMPEX 34-400 Nowy Targ ul. Szaflarska 62A tel(18) 264-60-55 pn-pt 09:30 - 17:00 sb. 09:30 - 13:00 www.kompex.pl ; bok@kompex.pl ; kompex@nowytarg.net From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Daniel Pearson Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 3:44 PM To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging Scheme 2025 IPv4 sells in the private market for anywhere from $40-$50 per address. When a /24 is worth $10,000~ When a /22 is worth $40,000~ When a /20 is worth $162,000~ Do you really think you will motivate someone to give them up by charging 0.1 EUR per address? That's just a fantasy. On 4/10/24 8:34 AM, Mihail Fedorov wrote: Hello. Because it solves both purposes - some small motivation for unused “hoarded” IP address space to be distributed back to those who suffer from total lack of them - at least a little bit will go back to market. There are still really A LOT of entities who hoard them not for the purpose of need (now or in future, commercial or not), but ONLY because some time ago v4 distribution was not managed properly. This, per my opinion, should be somehow resolved. - small LIR’s without large clients or subnets should not fund RIPE expensive projects on equal basis with transcontinental corporations. Latter will easily agree on 100x price increase just to knock off anyone else - still not even notice this fee. But existing fee and its increase is more than significant for smaller networks or someone trying to enter market. What I see in proposed schemes is total lack of choice. Let’s not pretend that increase to 1800, increase 1850 or increase to 1900 is actually a choice. It is not! And what I see in this mailing list is that almost everyone agree with this fact. My initial proposal remains the same: 0.1 EUR (adjusted to real RIPE financial needs) per v4 address in use. Absolutely flat and fair. It will be eventually distributed up to the IP end user by supply chain and be totally unnoticeable for them. At least there should be couple of more options in vote if community opinion really counted. Otherwise vote is nonsense, why it is needed at all? On 10 Apr 2024, at 16:09, Евгений Удовихин <mailto:eudovihin@gmail.com> <eudovihin@gmail.com> wrote: At least because large IP holders now have no motivation to release them. The dependence of the contribution on the number of addresses used will give an additional incentive not to keep unnecessary address space. Ср, 10 апр. 2024 г. в 22:59, Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> >: Dear all, Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources? I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way). It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer! And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line. Cheers Michel LANNERS CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu <http://01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu/> Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81 LU-CIX Management G.I.E. 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F <https://www.google.com/maps/search/202,+Z.A.E.+Wolser+F?entry=gmail&source=g> L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu/> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu/> luxembourg-internet-days.com <https://luxembourg-internet-days.com/> lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu/> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/eudovihin%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> members-discuss@ripe.net <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/mihail%40fedorov.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/mihail%40fedorov.net _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/daniel%40privatesyste...
We are trying to find a diplomatic way to suggest that larger organisations can afford to contribute more because they can defray the cost over more clients. We have only have 210 clients, so cost per capita is quite significant. Paul. F4RN On Wed, 10 Apr 2024, 13:58 Michel Lanners, <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> wrote:
Dear all,
Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources?
I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way).
It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer!
And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line.
Cheers
*Michel LANNERS* CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81
*LU-CIX Management G.I.E.* 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu> luxembourg-internet-days.com lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu>
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I still find it very special that if you look at an ISP that has +/- 1500 resource assignments, they only pay a maximum of 115k per year (!) with all these models, even though they have millions in turnover and are the largest customer of the basic services of RIPE. This does not seem like a sustainable financial plan to me. *Wieger Bontekoe* Principal Site Reliability Engineer wieger.bontekoe@productsup.com | Den Bosch www.productsup.com *Productsup B.V.* Part of the globally operative Productsup Group - *office locations* <https://www.productsup.com/contact-us/> Den Bosch: Emmaplein 4D 5211 VW 's-Hertogenbosch, Netherlands KvK-nummer 75051370; VAT ID NL860122657B01 Managing Directors: Vincent Peters, Stefan Sonntag, Koen Looijmans On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 3:20 PM Paul Newton <paul.newton@f4rn.org.uk> wrote:
We are trying to find a diplomatic way to suggest that larger organisations can afford to contribute more because they can defray the cost over more clients.
We have only have 210 clients, so cost per capita is quite significant.
Paul. F4RN
On Wed, 10 Apr 2024, 13:58 Michel Lanners, <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> wrote:
Dear all,
Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources?
I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way).
It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer!
And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line.
Cheers
*Michel LANNERS* CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81
*LU-CIX Management G.I.E.* 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu> luxembourg-internet-days.com lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu>
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Realistically you cannot compensate for recurring charges with one-time charges. The former you know, the latter you do not have any idea whether they will occur or not. Thus, while xfers could be invoiced at cost plus principles (or whatever), budgetarily it is insanity to assume that such events would occur. I like the gym analogy. Although most have different categories for different kinds of members, whether you can go to group lessons or not, whether you train during busy hours our outside of them, etc. as well as the implicit assumption that most pay but do not use. Also, they sell t-shirts, towels, chocolate, energy drinks, porridge, etc. Kaj ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 15:55 To: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: [members-discuss] Charging Scheme 2025 You don't often get email from michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Dear all, Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources? I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way). It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer! And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line. Cheers Michel LANNERS CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- [https://www.lu-cix.lu/LOGO/sign-20231207.png]<https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu<mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81 LU-CIX Management G.I.E. 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu<https://www.lu-cix.lu/> luxchat.lu<https://www.luxchat.lu/> luxembourg-internet-days.com<https://luxembourg-internet-days.com/> lunog.lu<https://www.lunog.lu/>
I'm never going to wear a t-shirt saying 'Ripe' ... On Wed, 10 Apr 2024, 14:21 Kaj Niemi, <kajtzu@basen.net> wrote:
Realistically you cannot compensate for recurring charges with one-time charges. The former you know, the latter you do not have any idea whether they will occur or not. Thus, while xfers could be invoiced at cost plus principles (or whatever), budgetarily it is insanity to assume that such events would occur.
I like the gym analogy. Although most have different categories for different kinds of members, whether you can go to group lessons or not, whether you train during busy hours our outside of them, etc. as well as the implicit assumption that most pay but do not use. Also, they sell t-shirts, towels, chocolate, energy drinks, porridge, etc.
Kaj ------------------------------ *From:* members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 10, 2024 15:55 *To:* members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> *Subject:* [members-discuss] Charging Scheme 2025
You don't often get email from michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu. Learn why this is important <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Dear all,
Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources?
I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way).
It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer!
And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line.
Cheers
*Michel LANNERS* CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81
*LU-CIX Management G.I.E.* 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu/> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu/> luxembourg-internet-days.com lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu/>
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/paul.newton%40f4rn.or...
And here I was thinking of publishing snarky "RIPE NCC budget to the moon" T-shirts on RedBubble 😉 Kaj ________________________________ From: Paul Newton <paul.newton@f4rn.org.uk> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 16:24 To: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu@basen.net> Cc: Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu>; <members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging Scheme 2025 I'm never going to wear a t-shirt saying 'Ripe' ... On Wed, 10 Apr 2024, 14:21 Kaj Niemi, <kajtzu@basen.net<mailto:kajtzu@basen.net>> wrote: Realistically you cannot compensate for recurring charges with one-time charges. The former you know, the latter you do not have any idea whether they will occur or not. Thus, while xfers could be invoiced at cost plus principles (or whatever), budgetarily it is insanity to assume that such events would occur. I like the gym analogy. Although most have different categories for different kinds of members, whether you can go to group lessons or not, whether you train during busy hours our outside of them, etc. as well as the implicit assumption that most pay but do not use. Also, they sell t-shirts, towels, chocolate, energy drinks, porridge, etc. Kaj ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu<mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu>> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 15:55 To: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: [members-discuss] Charging Scheme 2025 You don't often get email from michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu<mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu>. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Dear all, Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources? I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way). It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer! And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line. Cheers Michel LANNERS CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- [https://www.lu-cix.lu/LOGO/sign-20231207.png]<https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu<mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu<http://01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu/> Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81 LU-CIX Management G.I.E. 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu<https://www.lu-cix.lu/> luxchat.lu<https://www.luxchat.lu/> luxembourg-internet-days.com<https://luxembourg-internet-days.com/> lunog.lu<https://www.lunog.lu/> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/paul.newton%40f4rn.or...
I would love to see the RIPE serving porridge Vincent
On 10. Apr 2024, at 15:21, Kaj Niemi <kajtzu@basen.net> wrote:
Realistically you cannot compensate for recurring charges with one-time charges. The former you know, the latter you do not have any idea whether they will occur or not. Thus, while xfers could be invoiced at cost plus principles (or whatever), budgetarily it is insanity to assume that such events would occur.
I like the gym analogy. Although most have different categories for different kinds of members, whether you can go to group lessons or not, whether you train during busy hours our outside of them, etc. as well as the implicit assumption that most pay but do not use. Also, they sell t-shirts, towels, chocolate, energy drinks, porridge, etc.
Kaj From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu>> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 15:55 To: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: [members-discuss] Charging Scheme 2025
You don't often get email from michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu>. Learn why this is important <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Dear all,
Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources?
I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way).
It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer!
And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line.
Cheers
Michel LANNERS CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81
LU-CIX Management G.I.E. 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu/> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu/> luxembourg-internet-days.com <https://luxembourg-internet-days.com/> lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu/> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ripe%40kaminot.net
Hi guys: Either we accept higher membership fee or ask ripe stop services that not essential to the registration service, we can not have both here. Stop service that is not essential will probably cut membership fee by 80%, ripe NCC please confirm the barebones cost of registration service alone. Lu On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 15:58 Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> wrote:
Dear all,
Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources?
I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way).
It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer!
And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line.
Cheers
*Michel LANNERS* CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81
*LU-CIX Management G.I.E.* 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F <https://www.google.com/maps/search/202,+Z.A.E.+Wolser+F?entry=gmail&source=g> L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu> luxembourg-internet-days.com lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu>
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/h.lu%40outsideheaven....
Hi, This is something I was thinking about as well, maybe it is time for RIPE to plan its budget and activities as: - core (LIR related) - extras (ripe atlas, k-root, etc) Core activities is something that should be financed from members fees, while the extras either by voluntary member payments or external financing (sponsors). -----Original Message----- From: Lu <h.lu@anytimechinese.com> To: Michel <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> Cc: members-discuss <members-discuss@ripe.net> Date: Wednesday, 10 April 2024 3:28 PM CEST Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging Scheme 2025 Hi guys: Either we accept higher membership fee or ask ripe stop services that not essential to the registration service, we can not have both here. Stop service that is not essential will probably cut membership fee by 80%, ripe NCC please confirm the barebones cost of registration service alone. Lu On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 15:58 Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> wrote: Dear all, Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources? I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way). It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer! And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line. Cheers Michel LANNERS CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81 LU-CIX Management G.I.E. 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu luxchat.lu luxembourg-internet-days.com lunog.lu _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/h.lu%40outsideheaven....
I totally agree with Adam. There should be a division between the two activities with their budget. RIPE LIRs should already be able to cover “core” activities, but why should the LIR fee be increased for extras that are not required and necessary for everyone? From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Adam Sent: mercoledì 10 aprile 2024 16:02 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging Scheme 2025 Hi, This is something I was thinking about as well, maybe it is time for RIPE to plan its budget and activities as: - core (LIR related) - extras (ripe atlas, k-root, etc) Core activities is something that should be financed from members fees, while the extras either by voluntary member payments or external financing (sponsors). _____ From: Lu <h.lu@anytimechinese.com <mailto:h.lu@anytimechinese.com> > To: Michel <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> > Cc: members-discuss <members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > Date: Wednesday, 10 April 2024 3:28 PM CEST Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging Scheme 2025 Hi guys: Either we accept higher membership fee or ask ripe stop services that not essential to the registration service, we can not have both here. Stop service that is not essential will probably cut membership fee by 80%, ripe NCC please confirm the barebones cost of registration service alone. Lu On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 15:58 Michel Lanners <michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> > wrote: Dear all, Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources? I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way). It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer! And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line. Cheers Michel LANNERS CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu <http://01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu> Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81 LU-CIX Management G.I.E. 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F <https://www.google.com/maps/search/202,+Z.A.E.+Wolser+F?entry=gmail&source=g> L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu> luxembourg-internet-days.com <https://luxembourg-internet-days.com> lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/h.lu%40outsideheaven....
participants (12)
-
Adam -
Daniel Pearson -
Firma KOMPEX -
Kaj Niemi -
Lu Heng -
Michel Lanners -
Mihail Fedorov -
Paul Newton -
ripe＠kaminot.net -
support＠c1vhosting.it -
Wieger Bontekoe -
Евгений Удовихин