- members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012
by poty＠iiat.ru 18 Oct '11

18 Oct '11

Hello everybody, >From the counts it seems that the "not much increase" paradigm is not in the intentions of the new charging scheme. While I'd prefer to see the numbers in percents of amount to pay, the counting shows - the new charging scheme is way off the initial good feeling. (I hope the counting are fair - i.e. includes independent resources like PI and ASN). I'd like also hear some words from RIPE NCC about several suggestions voiced in the list. Regards, Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat From: members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Jochem de Ruig Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 6:18 PM To: Nigel Titley; members-discuss(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012 Dear all, About 40% of members will pay less and about 60% of members will pay more. Pay less in EUR less than 1,000 0% 1,000 - 500 9% 499 - 0 31% Pay more 1 - 499 32% 500 - 999 3% 1,000 - 1,999 19% 2,000 - 5,000 4% more than 5,000 1% Regards, Jochem On Oct 12, 2011, at 6:24 PM, Nigel Titley wrote: On 12/10/2011 13:56, Mike Hollowell wrote: On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 13:30 +0100, Nigel Titley wrote: 30% of XSmall members moving up, 9% of XSmall members moving down. 59% of Small members moving up, 14% Small members moving down. 100% M, L& XL moving up. Doesn't look the least bit balanced, roughly or otherwise. I did talk about the costs and not the membership category. Let me see if Jochem can give us some figures on what percentage of members will see *cost* increase and decrease. Nigel

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Clarification re proposed Charging Scheme 2012
by Sascha Luck 13 Oct '11

13 Oct '11

Hi, the proposed CS2012 contains the following footnote to the table for the calculation of membership categories: "Note 1: All IPv4 and IPv6 addresses (Provider Independent and Provider Aggregatable) are taken into account." For clarification, does this mean all PI space managed by the LIR on behalf of End Users, or only PI space directly assigned to the LIR? If the former, what is the justification to charging for this space twice, once through moving into a higher category and again through the EUR50 annual charge for Independent Resources? rgds, Sascha Luck ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012
by poty＠iiat.ru 13 Oct '11

13 Oct '11

Then - could you explain - why my question about why selling ASN per-number is not violating the current policy was not answered? Or you would deny this question too? > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Hartmann [mailto:richih.mailinglist@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 6:54 PM > To: Potapov Vladislav > Cc: gert(a)space.net; bangert(a)parknet.dk; members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012 > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 16:32, <poty(a)iiat.ru> wrote: > > > It IS true. Several people can prove that. The answer of the RIPE NCC > > was - it is already late to change something. The presentation was > > forged - and personally you knew that. > > While Gert did a good job of dismantling your factual points, I would > like to add a more personal/netiquette note. > > If you feel that you absolutely _have_ to accuse someone not only of > lying but of deliberate manipulation, please have some specific, > verifiable facts at the ready to back up your claim. In this specific > case, I highly doubt you have any. > > 2007-01 has been discussed at length prior to its voting. Coming late > to the game is not an excuse to pretend your voice was ignored on > purpose. > > > Richard ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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Side tracking on Charging schema and Auto-mail responders ...
by Erik Bais 13 Oct '11

13 Oct '11

If one would like to put a proposal forward that RIPE would actually increase the cost category of a LIR that replies to send emails on the general mail lists with a ticketing system with at least 1 category for the year ahead ... Is that something that one can ask for to vote on the AGM or is that something that needs a PDP proposal ? Kind regards, Erik Bais ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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FW: Clarification re proposed Charging Scheme 2012
by poty＠iiat.ru 13 Oct '11

13 Oct '11

-----Original Message----- From: Potapov Vladislav Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 12:27 PM To: 'Nigel Titley' Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Clarification re proposed Charging Scheme 2012 Nigel, Yes, LIR can charge the end user for this service, but the artificial "protection" measures have led to strange "side effects", which I'll try to explain in the real numbers of one of the LIRs I administer: What the LIR has: PA: 1x /19 AS: 1 Client PI: 1x /23 Client AS: 1 As you can see - nothing special and abusive? But let's think about that once more: - according to the PA allocation and LIRs ASN I'd pay in 2012: Category=M, >20 but <=19 IPv4, >8 but <=16 ASN = 2000 euro + 50 euro (1 ASN)= 2050 euro - serving the client's resources in addition: Category=L, >19 but <=16 IPv4, >16 but <=32 ASN = 3000 euro + 150 euro (2 ASN + PI)= 3150 euro So the "protective measures" costs the LIR legally serving only [1 PI assignment with ASN] additional 1100 euro or 550 euro for a "independent resource". Is it fair? How could the LIR count how much the client should pay for the resources if every year RIPE NCC invents new charging scheme with such huge deviations? IF (I pointed out once more - IF) the scheme should be voted - it MUST have some "independent resources margin" like it has about ASNs, but not pile up all addresses chunks. I should clarify my position about the three supporting documents listed in the GM 2011 agenda. - I'm not against rising budget, but the rise should be clearly explained. In this case the Activity Plan should have all the necessary cost values, the Budget - clear explanation what the additional expenses will go, Charging Scheme should be stable to be able to predict LIRs expenses. (Side note: if a company due to a very good business plan has unnecessary 1k-2k euro to pay for bad work of financial department of RIPE NCC, it could as well send the money to me - I'm very welcomed this motion. :) ). - The proposed Charging Scheme has not achieved declared goal - simplicity and in my opinion became even more tough to understand and have many dishonest issues. Then for the 2012 the Charging Scheme should be saved from 2011. Regards, Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss- > bounces(a)ripe.net] On Behalf Of Nigel Titley > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 9:52 PM > To: members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Clarification re proposed Charging > Scheme 2012 > > On 12/10/2011 18:48, Sascha Luck wrote: > > Hi Jochem, > > > > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 07:35:38PM +0200, Jochem de Ruig wrote: > >> For example, if a /18 is requested and would put an LIR into a > larger > >> category, if we did not take the PI resource into account for the > >> categorisation, requesting a /18 of PI space would be beneficial > over a > >> requesting a /18 of PA space. > > Right, this makes kind of sense for PI space assigned to the > requesting > > LIR. What about space requested on behalf of end users - the LIR > does > > not benefit from the use of this space, in fact after 2007-01 it > merely > > handles the request on behalf of the end user and the NCC. > > > The LIR is free to charge the end user for this service, surely? Or am > I > confused? > > Nigel > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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Fwd: [ncc-announce] [NOC #EXN-767-26459]: 128.0.0.0/16 configured as martian: Please update your routers
by Alfredo Sola 13 Oct '11

13 Oct '11

Does this set a new record? These mor^H^H^Hcolleagues have their RIPE-subscribed address redirected to their ticketing system, AND this Fabien guy who receives the new ticket notifications has set an auto-responder that respects neither a mailing list, nor his own ticketing system. I have to confess that I am beginning to be rather unpolite with this kind of situation. If I had nothing better to do... Inicio del mensaje reenviado: > De: "postmaster(a)internet-fr.net" <noc(a)fmn.uk.net> > Asunto: [ncc-announce] [NOC #EXN-767-26459]: 128.0.0.0/16 configured as martian: Please update your routers > Fecha: 13 de octubre de 2011 10:45:09 GMT+02:00 > Para: ncc-announce(a)ripe.net > Responder a: noc(a)fmn.uk.net > > Bonjour, > Je suis actuellement en cong?, de retour mercredi 19 Octobre. En cas d'urgence, merci de contacter notre service support au +33 1 64 53 17 98. > Cordialement, > > Hi, > I'm in vacation until Wednesday 19th Oct. You can reach our support team at this phone number: +33 1 64 53 17 98. > regards, > > Fabien Dedenon > Internet Fr > > > > Ticket Details > Ticket ID: EXN-767-26459 > Department: Network Operations (NOC) > Type: Issue > Status: Open > Priority: Medium > > Support Center: http://helpdesk.fmn.uk.net/index.php? > > Cordialement, > > Hi, > I'm in vacation until Wednesday 19th Oct. You can reach our support team at this phone number: +33 1 64 53 17 98. > regards, > > Fabien Dedenon > Internet Fr > > > > Ticket Details > Ticket ID: EXN-767-26459 > Department: Network Operations (NOC) > Type: Issue > Status: Open > Priority: Medium > > Support Center: http://helpdesk.fmn.uk.net/index.php? -- Alfredo Sola ASP5-RIPE http://www.solucionesdinamicas.net/ ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012
by Brandon Butterworth 12 Oct '11

12 Oct '11

> Complication was further > introduced by 2007-01 and we put off implementing this for an additional > year under the principle of least surprise. If you need to charge to make people use it effectively just put it on our bill like everything else. Having to faff with clients signing contracts was surprise and not wanted, trying to make clients become LIR/direct RIPE customers was not wanted. > We also have to work within the constraints of the Dutch tax > system, which eliminates certain options, as we've seen. Finally we, the > board, have a legal duty, affecting us personally (yes, that means they > take my house away if the RIPE NCC gets into difficulty), to run the > business of the RIPE NCC in a prudent and legal fashion. Move it to UK and make a limited company then, that's a crazy risk to have to take on personally regards brandon ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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FW: budget 2012
by poty＠iiat.ru 12 Oct '11

12 Oct '11

Hello everyone, The activity plan is almost useless as soon as it doesn't include any expenses. The biggest part of the so called "plan" is a copy from previous years' plans and there is no mention why the budget for executing the plan should be raised and for what needs particularly. The community is asking for the information for many years and many years the "plan" exists in the pristine clear from expenses form. Regards, Potapov Vladislav Ru.iiat From: members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Nigel Titley Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:30 PM To: members-discuss(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012 On 11/10/2011 10:18, Geert Hauwaerts wrote: I strongly agree with the motions raised about maintaining a responsible budget; and perhaps in light of recent developments, we should take a moment and evaluate some of the projects the RIPE NCC has taken on itself. This is why we circulate the activity plan well in advance of setting the budget and the charging scheme. We typically get no response to the activity plan at all. I do take on board Kurtis' comments about making the activity plan more transparent with regards to costs of individual activities and we will ask the RIPE NCC to make this clearer. Additionally, and without any disrespect, if any of the Board Members feel they do not have adequate time to fulfill their duties; they might wish to vacate their seat in favor of somebody who does. RIPE NCC board/RIPE WG activities take up roughly 2 days per *week* of my time. I'm lucky to have an employer that is happy with this. However, as I made clear, this discussion blew up at the time of the month when I happen to have to spend a couple of days full time on the day job. Apologies for this. Nigel ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012
by poty＠iiat.ru 11 Oct '11

11 Oct '11

As far as those not contributing in the list "not care" or "agreed with everything" it is unwise to predict "what the membership as a whole wants". All the more nobody can act as God to be able to say: "I know what everybody thinks and what everybody wants". I appreciate the answers of RIPE NCC, but "I am happy to monitor", "Rest assured", "the board is very well paying attention" are not answers the members of the list are waiting for and doesn't bring any clear vision on the process of determination of what changes we should welcomed at GM. The questions at the RIPE meeting will be late and not productive at all. Looking at the expenses in the proposed budget I can see the increase in all parts. I do not agree with the situation. Some time ago in 1998 I was in London attending the RIPE courses. It was 5* hotel and one of the natives said with some sadness, "We all do not live like that!" Maybe we'll look into decreasing the pomp for all our rather technical meetings/courses/hotels...? I'll look also into decreasing the stuff: as soon as it's said they are the best in the industry they can do more than average middle-salaried worker. Regards, Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss- > bounces(a)ripe.net] On Behalf Of Christian Kaufmann > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 2:54 AM > To: Nigel Titley > Cc: members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012 > > ...as Nigel and Fahad said, the board is very well paying attention to > the list and what the members want. > And for the ones who don't want to send an email to the list, feel free > to send a direct email to us or even better feel free to talk to us in > person at the next RIPE meeting.:-) > > Best regards, > > ck > > > > > On Oct 11, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Nigel Titley wrote: > > > On 10/10/2011 22:50, Fahad AlShirawi wrote: > >> And on my side I am happy to monitor the members' discussion and see > what it is the members want and then to bring it up internally. Rest > assured Hank that we will consider all concerns where applicable and as > much as possible within the constraints we have. > > Yes, thanks for making this clear, Fahad. > > > > As far as I am aware, all members of the board read this list and > take > > notice of what the members want. Our sometimes difficult job is to > try > > and sort out what the membership as a whole wants, rather than just > the > > dozen or so active contributors to the list. > > > > Always feel free to send any of us a direct personal question or > > comment, especially if there is a period of quiet. As I've mentioned > > before, we all have day jobs which sometimes intrude on our board > work. > > > > Nigel > > > > ---- > > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". > From here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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Electronic voting.
by Pawel Tyll 11 Oct '11

11 Oct '11

Why is electronic voting made so complicated? Why can't it be a part of LIR portal? In who's interest lies reduction of votes given? ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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