- members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

NCC acting on registrations pursuant to "police order"?
by Sascha Luck 14 Nov '11

14 Nov '11

All, in the recent discussion on RPKI, it was stated by the NCC that it would not act on resource registrations (and, by extension, certificates and ROAs) without a valid Dutch court order. According to: http://www.ripe.net/internet-coordination/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/ripe… ther NCC has blocked changes to registered resources pursuant to "an order from Dutch police". Now, I'm not overly familiar with the Dutch legal system but in ours, a court order is different from a "police order". Considering the implications for, in particular, RPKI; could someone from the NCC confirm that this was, in fact, on foot of a court order? Alternatively, is a "police order" something equivalent, eg an order that must be followed on pain of legal sanction?` Regards, Sascha Luck

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Re: [members-discuss] [#22756] Re: FW: NCC acting on registrations pursuant to "police order"?
by Sven Olaf Kamphuis 12 Nov '11

12 Nov '11

Security expert Ronald Prince of forensic firm Fox-IT across all Macworld speculated that this action may be related to the rolling up of the DNS gang. "De DNS-servers draaiden op bepaalde ip-adressen. Nu zijn die vervangen door servers van de politie zelf." "The DNS servers were running on certain IP addresses. Now those servers replaced by the police themselves." ah so-called "security expert" and well known sockpuppet of the amerifags, ronald prins, is at it again... when he's not too busy persecuting the international souvereign military order of internet knights that is anonymous, he's always to be found to make some foolish statements in the press. The rolled malware gang has four million PCs worldwide able to infect. This is done through rogue DNS servers. NO -THIS IS DONE THROUGH MICROSOFT WINDOWS-, go and arrest bill gates for selling utter crap that doesn't belong on a network in the first place, and not fixing it on purpose although code is much easier to fix than to maintain a dictionary of search strings for 'known' virus code that exploits it. Prince says that the RIPE-blocking by the Dutch police can ensure that the infected computers keep their connection. Only is it not the rogue machines, but the police servers. " And that solves the problem ... how exactly... the next virus will show up and microsoft continue keep sell crap and isn't even being blamed by this rather pro-american so-called "security" expert. i'd say, flash the god damn biosses with an advertisement that gets them to the mac store, or force install ubuntu if you're already taking over a botnet anyway :P the dutch police gets paid by dutch taxpayers to protect dutch/european interests, not those of mickeysoft or the usa, or to run after people that exploit bugs (probably purposely) not fixed by microsoft to keep their "anti virus industry" buddies in business. i'd say, this whole thing is EASILY solved by a forced update of windows, on THEIR side of the ocean, i see no need to waste further european tax money on whatever that god damn ex-colony of amsterdam wants. (and while we're at the subject, why on earth do we let them sell that crap in our stores ;) -- Greetings, Sven Olaf Kamphuis, CB3ROB Ltd. & Co. KG ========================================================================= Address: Koloniestrasse 34 VAT Tax ID: DE267268209 D-13359 Registration: HRA 42834 B BERLIN Phone: +31/(0)87-8747479 Germany GSM: +49/(0)152-26410799 RIPE: CBSK1-RIPE e-Mail: sven(a)cb3rob.net ========================================================================= <penpen> C3P0, der elektrische Westerwelle http://www.facebook.com/cb3rob ========================================================================= Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 11 Nov 2011, support(a)privatelayer.com wrote: > Dear Valued Private Layer Customer, > > > Our tech support department has received your message in good order and we have assigned a ticket number to your request. > > The ticket number assigned is: 22756. We are reviewing your ticket and will reply to it shortly. > > > Best Regards, > > Private Layer INC > Tech Support Department > support(a)privatelayer.com >

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Re: [members-discuss] FW: NCC acting on registrations pursuant to "police order"?
by Erik Bais 11 Nov '11

11 Nov '11

Hi Brandon, >>> 1 Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as >>> may be necessary to enable its competent authorities to order or >>> similarly obtain the expeditious preservation of specified computer >>> data > >It's just preservation, it doesn't say prevention of new data creation (you'd have to preserve that too) >It would just be a limitation of the RIPE systems if they have to lock an account to ensure retention of data, they could implement other means to provide a preserved data trail while leaving the account active. Your statement might be true and is also the problem with international ratification of Treaties and the underlying national implementation into the law. In this case, the question would be, what was the actual request from the Police, in order to get some more detail on it. If a preservation of information would have been enough or if a freeze of an account would be required. An online copy of the actual request from the KLPD in that case would be nice, where the personal details can be removed with black marker to protect the innocence etc. (blah blah .. ;-) ) I can only imagine that the operational system of RIPE would not have been designed to comply with anything like a Data retention act in mind. (Off-topic: Which in the Netherlands is still on 12 months btw.) So was the locking of the accounts towards the RIPE systems or freezing of the subnets, was it about the LIR portal, the associated maintainer passwd, or something else, like preventing them from doing changes to rev. dns. ? Or was it about avoiding transfers or changes in the Whois DB ? And instead of dealing with all the fuzz of the above, RIPE NCC might have taken the route of ... disable the accounts and wait ... Which is a perfectly good action imho as it would freeze the evidence present and the people involved would only notice it when they would actually need to make changes. Questions .. questions .. And only a few that know. Erik

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Re: [members-discuss] FW: NCC acting on registrations pursuant to "police order"?
by Brandon Butterworth 11 Nov '11

11 Nov '11

>> 1 Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as >> may be necessary to enable its competent authorities to order or >> similarly obtain the expeditious preservation of specified computer >> data It's just preservation, it doesn't say prevention of new data creation (you'd have to preserve that too) It would just be a limitation of the RIPE systems if they have to lock an account to ensure retention of data, they could implement other means to provide a preserved data trail while leaving the account active. brandon

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Some thoughts I was not able to say at GM-2011
by poty＠iiat.ru 09 Nov '11

09 Nov '11

Hello everybody, At the beginning I'd like to apologize for my poor spoken English which prevented me to clearly state my opinion at GM. It is not related to any problems with EB preventing me to do that! Thank them for the opportunity given and sorry for emotional expressions. I hope that something from my speech at GM was understandable, but to make my position more consistent I'll sum the thoughts I wanted to express. My main concern is about openness of the decisions if we speak about money, not technical and police things. All the three interrelated finance documents (The Activity Plan, which defines the expenses and is the base for the Budget, which defines the balance between the expenses and incomes, and the Charging Scheme as a result of defined incomes to cover expenses) were compiled inside of the RIPE NCC and were not clear to me and (according to several posts here in the list) to several other members. For example, who exactly gave the feedbacks for initial RIPE NCC Proposed New Charging Scheme 2012? The members-discuss list was pristine innocent about this "the current Charging Scheme model is complex and makes it difficult for individual members to easily determine their own fees" complains. Private conversations? Maybe... But it shouldn't in my opinion be private as soon as it relates to all the members! The new published EB email which enables another private channel between a person and the EB is a bad thing according to the logic of my sentences above. The main and the only "panel" for discussion should be either the members-discuss list or new "finance-discuss?" list, opened maybe only to members (I don't mind if it is completely opened). As stated by Nigel Titley, the Chairman of the Executive Board, at the GM the things are going to change to the next GM. The lack of discussions about the documents before GM-2011 was in my opinion related to usefulness and the source reasons in the documents. Speaking about the Activity Plan - we (members) asked the EB about adding cost to each activity in 2007-2008. Without the numbers the Activity Plan is a way of stating things, but not evaluating effectiveness of the services. Discuss "marked on stone" statements is not very rewarding venture. Thankfully the numbers will appear soon in the document. Second point in the matter - the procedure of changing the Activity Plan - it is not exist now and should be invented. There was already the suggestions about it in the list I won't going to repeat them now. Speaking about the Charging Scheme... I'm not against the increase of the amount to pay, I'm against of the misty motivations for the rise and some predictability of expenses. There should be clearly defined "resource classes" included in each membership category, and clearer definition of fairness. (I'd also decide on the consulting about the taxation issue, but it in unrelated thing up to now.) I can give many examples of that but I'm trying to make this message as short as possible. For example, I don't agree with the "free" IPv6: the LIRs would pay for the blocks indirectly, through IPv4 counting, anyway - whom we are going to trick then? The last thing which is the most important to me - the services of the RIPE NCC above the main baseline of "providing unique blocks of numbers and register them on the DB". It is related to the Activity Plan certainly, but I'd like to mention them from different point of view - in term of including some of them in the Charging Scheme. I'm repeating - I'm not against developed services "made in RIPE NCC", think that many of them (not all though) are very useful, but why some of them deserves to be mentioned in the Charging Scheme, the others - not? Why not related to the main activity things should be mentioned in invoices at all? I think of it like "tie in sale", not very pleasant thought of course. Regards, Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat

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Re: [members-discuss] Voting @ GM 2011
by Brandon Butterworth 07 Nov '11

07 Nov '11

> The alternative, of course, is to continue with the old charging scheme > as we have used up until now but of course we put together the new > charging scheme as a response to the membership after complaints about > the old one, so I wouldn't expect that to be popular. There will always be some who think the price is too damn high and they should pay less (and in this case others should pay more instead). When you change it you'll make some happier, some will think it's still to high and you'll add others who now think it's too high. The latter two will continue to be heard. Overall the RIPE fees aren't that large and for big ISP are just noise. If there is change that's a sign where to make it. brandon

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activity plan suggestion
by Sergey Myasoedov 07 Nov '11

07 Nov '11

Hello, there is a proposal for RIPE NCC and Executive board. As there is a criticism of RIPE NCC Activity plan and voting at the GM for the whole plan, I would like to propose to split the Activity plan into several statements and vote for each item of the plan separately. The voting can be done by show of hands directly at the GM. Thank you. -- Kind regards, Sergey

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Privatelayer Inc
by Nigel Titley 07 Nov '11

07 Nov '11

Dear Private Layer If there is anybody from Private Layer actually reading this list can they please take their ticketing system OFF it. You are the last member to do this. It is difficult to understand why you are unable to do this. There are two possibilities: 1. No one at Private Layer reads trouble tickets 2. No one at Private Layer knows how to take their ticket system off the list Neither bodes well for your continued viability as a commercial entity. Fondest regards Nigel

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Re: [members-discuss] Voting @ GM 2011
by Hank Nussbacher 07 Nov '11

07 Nov '11

At 11:54 07/11/2011 +0100, Lu Heng wrote: >Hi Hank: >They will take money from reserve as I heard in the GM. >It was like 4M(if I was not remember it wrong) shortage Always nice to have reserves, but they tend to dry up after extensive use. I hope the EB has some plans of cost cutting, other than RIPE NCC's ideas of cost cutting such as <sarcasm> taking on a 2MEuro RIPE ATLAS Probe project</sarcasm>. -Hank >On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Hank Nussbacher <hank(a)efes.iucc.ac.il> wrote: > > At 10:25 07/11/2011 +0000, James Blessing wrote: > >>On 07/11/2011 10:16, SPEEDNIC S.R.L. - RIPE Handling wrote: > >> > >> > Can you explain us and to the whole list what will be happen now as I > >> > guess it was the first time since we are a member that the GM don't > >> > adopt the Charging Scheme ?? > >> > >>As was explained at the GM by Nigel, the charging scheme that currently > >>exists would be used leading to an expected revenue shortfall > > > > In most businesses I know of, when there is an expected revenue shortfall, > > cuts are made - either in salary, amount of manpower or in projects. I > > hope RIPE NCC has contingency plans in place. > > > > Regards, > > Hank > > > > > >>J > >>-- > >>James Blessing > >>+44 7989 039 476 > >>Strategic Relations Manager, EMEA > >>Limelight Networks > >> > >>---- > >>If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > >>mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > >>general page: > >>https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > >> > >>Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > >>here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > > > ---- > > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > > >-- >This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. >It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or >otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use >of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the >intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received >this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and >e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this >message and including the text of the transmission received.

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Re: [members-discuss] Proposed 2012 Charging scheme, Board comments
by Hank Nussbacher 29 Oct '11

29 Oct '11

At 11:16 03/10/2011 +0200, Erik Bais wrote: >Hi Jon, > >Without repeating myself in this discussion, I'll just post a url for you >to read from earlier this year on the topic. >http://www.ripe.net/maillists/ncc-archives/members-discuss/2011/msg00154.ht… > >Basically, the members approve the activity schedule for the RIPE NCC. >That means that we also shouldn't bitch about a certain cost, not for >profit doesn't mean free :) We do not get much of a say as to how much budget should be applied for regional meetings, consultancy, training courses, RIPE meetings, marketing, r&d, etc. We are given a budget that increases every year and are told to ratify it - of which only 5% of the membership vote. Most LIRs don't care if the fee is 3KEuro or 10KEuro since it just gets absorbed as a minor cost overhead as passed on to customers. And RIPE knows it. -Hank >If we don't agree..either we should have a look at how certain costs are >being made or we should scrap certain activities. > >In the end.. we're only talking about 6.25 euro per LIR per day. > >Regards, >Erik Bais > >---- >If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >general page: >https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > >Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >here, you can add or remove addresses.

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