Re: [ncc-services-wg] UA IP transfers situation
Hi All !
Hi All!
Let me point out what is happening with Ukrainian resources transfers.
We are now facing with the hugest government based attack against our basic principles of government free self regulation.
I think the real target of the attacker is to obtain a financial gain from IPv4 market.
First, the deputy of Ukrainian Parliament Olexandr Fedienko wrote a letter to RIPE NCC with the initiative of hand-checking transfer requests with Ukrainian government agency. This idea was not accepted neither by Ukrainian, nor by European community. People understand this is a step out from RIPE community self-governance and the source of corrupted money for this agency as it should decide either pass the transfer or not.
After that initiative was rejected, Fedienko with the help of his representatives at the RIPE 85 meeting in Belgade tried to ban all the transfers outside Ukraine. His representatives promoted a set of very expressive and emotional speeches about possible forced transfers. He also used his power and pushed a set of Ukrainian companies to register online to RIPE 85 (and for some reason - for GM, I think he just don't understand the difference) and to send a copy-pasted message about support of the ban.
The idea is to close the market, limiting the transfers only to Ukrainian companies.
The proposal is to temporarily deny ALL transfers, inside and outside of Ukraine, so that all resource holders will remain with what they have, and nobody could possibly get hold of their resources.
And to buy resources almost for free, as the war pushes people to sell it, while the buy offers are very limited. It looks logical. But their arguments for the ban are not.
This is very hypothetical scenario, based on wrong assumption, described one paragraph above. And even if that assumption would not be wrong, it is quite unrealistic that Ukrainian companies that maintain infrastructure and struggle to rebuild networks on destroyed or de-occupied territories are going to sell their IP addresses to get some profit - they do not have enough of them already, how are they going to get more? On the other hand, there is quite real scenario for companies whose business is based on re-selling IP addresses or providing "services" of moving resources out of Ukraine, including the one that Max Tulyev announced just several days ago ( https://www.facebook.com/mt6561/posts/pfbid0273c1ndwbZXBLc9ST7sFwisCC9o8Bw9Y... ). Such businesses will not thrive if the transfers will be frozen. Of course, these companies are also part of the RIPE community. But the community could choose what values it supports.
They said they need the whole-Ukrainian ban to protect resources at the distressed areas against the forced transfer.
First, while RIPE NCC accepts "documents" issued on the occupied territories based on LPR/DPR/Russian jurisdiction, this ban of Ukrainian resources transfer can be easily avoided just using these "documents". Including for the real forced transfers.
It isn't clear what is the problem you describe here. However, it is a problem that many companies from those territories are registered by RIPE NCC based on registration papers issued either by russia or dnr/lnr, and therefore might not be seen as Ukrainian. Ideally RIPE NCC should block transfers of companies registered on the whole internationally recognized territory of Ukraine, including all occupied territories.
Second, it is nothing to do with Ukrainian companies based on the territories not in the distress area. From the war front line to for example Uzhgorod city there are ~800km and 2000m high mountains. Why should we complicate the life for these companies?
For someone who fled the country it might seem that there are distressed areas and areas "behind high mountains". But the reality in Ukraine is that the whole country is distressed. There are companies registered in what you describe as "safe areas", but they have representatives on all territory of the country, including occupied areas. Or the head of a company in the "safe" territory could have relatives who are under occupation. In all such cases they could be threatened and forced to sign transfer documents.
Third, it is unclear why transfers inside Ukraine should not be banned for the time the policy is being updated. If we really have the problem, it is logical to ban all transfers.
Again, the proposal is to temporarily hold all transfers of Ukrainian holders.
Forth, I asked many times to show any example of the forced transfer in the distress area. They can't. I did not hear any of these situations myself. So for me the problem they are trying to solve did not even exist.
This situation with the possible country-wide transfer ban rose a big discussion in Telecom Ukraine telegram channel, which is a discussion point for a lot of (but not all) Ukrainian Internet and telecom companies.
Instead of explaining things for my requests, Olexandr Fedienko call me there a hidden Russian FSB agent, and Olena Kushnir said I do not understand that "we should keep a valuable resource inside our country during the war". But sorry, these are definitely not their resources! So they should not tell holders what to do with it, until we are not live in a Communist country where all things belongs to the government.
This situation makes deeply concern Ukrainian community and resources holders. We are really afraid some of this proposals will be implemented without consensus inside Ukrainian community, just because of government letters, emotional speeches. And definitely without any "closed meetings" (C) Olena Kushnir with NCC staff inaccessible for people with another opinion.
It will be so kind if RIPE NCC officials release a statement where they clearly state they will not implement any bans for resource holders not in the distress area. And any changes on the policy will be implemented with the current policy development process, consensus, and in the co-operation with all community. This will calm down the situation and will convince people that NCC really respects and protects the interests of the community members.
Thank you very much for the long reading!
And in the end it will be better if we focus our efforts on solving the problem, and not on writing a hypothetical stories. The discussion should be constructive and effective. Thanks. Viktoriia Opanasiuk
Who's asking for that? As a business, such an offer only harms me! What LIR do you represent and how many IP have been stolen from you? On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 9:43 AM Viktoriia Opanasiuk < viktoriia.opanasiuk@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All !
Hi All!
Let me point out what is happening with Ukrainian resources transfers.
We are now facing with the hugest government based attack against our basic principles of government free self regulation.
I think the real target of the attacker is to obtain a financial gain from IPv4 market.
First, the deputy of Ukrainian Parliament Olexandr Fedienko wrote a letter to RIPE NCC with the initiative of hand-checking transfer requests with Ukrainian government agency. This idea was not accepted neither by Ukrainian, nor by European community. People understand this is a step out from RIPE community self-governance and the source of corrupted money for this agency as it should decide either pass the transfer or not.
After that initiative was rejected, Fedienko with the help of his representatives at the RIPE 85 meeting in Belgade tried to ban all the transfers outside Ukraine. His representatives promoted a set of very expressive and emotional speeches about possible forced transfers. He also used his power and pushed a set of Ukrainian companies to register online to RIPE 85 (and for some reason - for GM, I think he just don't understand the difference) and to send a copy-pasted message about support of the ban.
The idea is to close the market, limiting the transfers only to Ukrainian companies.
The proposal is to temporarily deny ALL transfers, inside and outside of Ukraine, so that all resource holders will remain with what they have, and nobody could possibly get hold of their resources.
And to buy resources almost for free, as the war pushes people to sell it, while the buy offers are very limited. It looks logical. But their arguments for the ban are not.
This is very hypothetical scenario, based on wrong assumption, described one paragraph above.
And even if that assumption would not be wrong, it is quite unrealistic that Ukrainian companies that maintain infrastructure and struggle to rebuild networks on destroyed or de-occupied territories are going to sell their IP addresses to get some profit - they do not have enough of them already, how are they going to get more?
On the other hand, there is quite real scenario for companies whose business is based on re-selling IP addresses or providing "services" of moving resources out of Ukraine, including the one that Max Tulyev announced just several days ago ( https://www.facebook.com/mt6561/posts/pfbid0273c1ndwbZXBLc9ST7sFwisCC9o8Bw9Y... ).
Such businesses will not thrive if the transfers will be frozen.
Of course, these companies are also part of the RIPE community. But the community could choose what values it supports.
They said they need the whole-Ukrainian ban to protect resources at the distressed areas against the forced transfer.
First, while RIPE NCC accepts "documents" issued on the occupied territories based on LPR/DPR/Russian jurisdiction, this ban of Ukrainian resources transfer can be easily avoided just using these "documents". Including for the real forced transfers.
It isn't clear what is the problem you describe here. However, it is a problem that many companies from those territories are registered by RIPE NCC based on registration papers issued either by russia or dnr/lnr, and therefore might not be seen as Ukrainian. Ideally RIPE NCC should block transfers of companies registered on the whole internationally recognized territory of Ukraine, including all occupied territories.
Second, it is nothing to do with Ukrainian companies based on the territories not in the distress area. From the war front line to for example Uzhgorod city there are ~800km and 2000m high mountains. Why should we complicate the life for these companies?
For someone who fled the country it might seem that there are distressed areas and areas "behind high mountains". But the reality in Ukraine is that the whole country is distressed. There are companies registered in what you describe as "safe areas", but they have representatives on all territory of the country, including occupied areas. Or the head of a company in the "safe" territory could have relatives who are under occupation. In all such cases they could be threatened and forced to sign transfer documents.
Third, it is unclear why transfers inside Ukraine should not be banned for the time the policy is being updated. If we really have the problem, it is logical to ban all transfers.
Again, the proposal is to temporarily hold all transfers of Ukrainian holders.
Forth, I asked many times to show any example of the forced transfer in the distress area. They can't. I did not hear any of these situations myself. So for me the problem they are trying to solve did not even exist.
This situation with the possible country-wide transfer ban rose a big discussion in Telecom Ukraine telegram channel, which is a discussion point for a lot of (but not all) Ukrainian Internet and telecom companies.
Instead of explaining things for my requests, Olexandr Fedienko call me there a hidden Russian FSB agent, and Olena Kushnir said I do not understand that "we should keep a valuable resource inside our country during the war". But sorry, these are definitely not their resources! So they should not tell holders what to do with it, until we are not live in a Communist country where all things belongs to the government.
This situation makes deeply concern Ukrainian community and resources holders. We are really afraid some of this proposals will be implemented without consensus inside Ukrainian community, just because of government letters, emotional speeches. And definitely without any "closed meetings" (C) Olena Kushnir with NCC staff inaccessible for people with another opinion.
It will be so kind if RIPE NCC officials release a statement where they clearly state they will not implement any bans for resource holders not in the distress area. And any changes on the policy will be implemented with the current policy development process, consensus, and in the co-operation with all community. This will calm down the situation and will convince people that NCC really respects and protects the interests of the community members.
Thank you very much for the long reading!
And in the end it will be better if we focus our efforts on solving the problem, and not on writing a hypothetical stories. The discussion should be constructive and effective. Thanks.
Viktoriia Opanasiuk --
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Hi, On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:25:58AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
Who's asking for that? As a business, such an offer only harms me! What LIR do you represent and how many IP have been stolen from you?
I am seriously astonished how many LIRs have their businesses depend on "selling IPv4 address". This is not exactly how this was planned, and is not exactly a sustainable business model either. But from the discussion it seems that there is sufficient non-consensus on "block transfers for all ukrainian LIRs" - so maybe the version proposed "LIR can request a full transfer stop at the NCC, and the only way to revoke that request is by showing up in person" (or have it timeout after 12 months?) might be workable... Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi, On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:30:54AM +0100, Gert Doering wrote:
But from the discussion it seems that there is sufficient non-consensus on "block transfers for all ukrainian LIRs" - so maybe the version proposed "LIR can request a full transfer stop at the NCC, and the only way to revoke that request is by showing up in person" (or have it timeout after 12 months?) might be workable...
Possibly making this even stronger: the NCC contacts all LIRs in Ukraine and any that does not explicitly refuse(!) this offer in 7? 14? days time will be assumed to be under distress, and put into transfer stop. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi All, yes, that's look much better! May be add a phone call before blocking. This can protect companies in distress, and do not make a harm to others. Also NCC can gather some stats on that, update LIR contacts. I personally support the "Red button" inside the LIR portal to block any transfers for certain period of time. This also might be helpful in solving the corporate conflicts. And yes, there is DEFINITELY NO CONSENSUS on "block all transfers in/outside Ukraine". 31.10.22 11:34, Gert Doering пише:
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:30:54AM +0100, Gert Doering wrote:
But from the discussion it seems that there is sufficient non-consensus on "block transfers for all ukrainian LIRs" - so maybe the version proposed "LIR can request a full transfer stop at the NCC, and the only way to revoke that request is by showing up in person" (or have it timeout after 12 months?) might be workable...
Possibly making this even stronger: the NCC contacts all LIRs in Ukraine and any that does not explicitly refuse(!) this offer in 7? 14? days time will be assumed to be under distress, and put into transfer stop.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
For example, to transport your IP with infrastructure to a European state where there is no power outage, etc. Also sell part of the IP to maintain business and pay salaries in a war and the company's profits fall into the red. On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:30 AM Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:25:58AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
Who's asking for that? As a business, such an offer only harms me! What LIR do you represent and how many IP have been stolen from you?
I am seriously astonished how many LIRs have their businesses depend on "selling IPv4 address". This is not exactly how this was planned, and is not exactly a sustainable business model either.
But from the discussion it seems that there is sufficient non-consensus on "block transfers for all ukrainian LIRs" - so maybe the version proposed "LIR can request a full transfer stop at the NCC, and the only way to revoke that request is by showing up in person" (or have it timeout after 12 months?) might be workable...
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi, On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:37:01AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
For example, to transport your IP with infrastructure to a European state where there is no power outage, etc.
For this, I do not need a transfer to another LIR. While it's still "my Internet business", it can be located anywhere - the sort of transfer stop we're talking about is "move to another LIR", not "move to another location" (which is of no interest to the RIPE NCC, as it's still the same resource holder).
Also sell part of the IP to maintain business and pay salaries in a war and the company's profits fall into the red.
I can't argue this, as it is a possibility. It just does not seem overly convincing in the overall context. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Gert Doering how many resources do you have registered in Ukraine? On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:47 AM Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:37:01AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
For example, to transport your IP with infrastructure to a European state where there is no power outage, etc.
For this, I do not need a transfer to another LIR. While it's still "my Internet business", it can be located anywhere - the sort of transfer stop we're talking about is "move to another LIR", not "move to another location" (which is of no interest to the RIPE NCC, as it's still the same resource holder).
Also sell part of the IP to maintain business and pay salaries in a war and the company's profits fall into the red.
I can't argue this, as it is a possibility. It just does not seem overly convincing in the overall context.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi, On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:51:51AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
Gert Doering how many resources do you have registered in Ukraine?
None, but this is not a relevant question here. There is a proposal on the table, which got shot down by a number of individuals that claim that "selling IPv4 addresses" is crucial to their businesses. I can find this shady as much as I want, but it is still clear that there is no consensus for the original proposal. Thus, alternatives have been proposed, so you and Max can continue to sell IPv4 addresses, while others can keep the Infrastructure up and provide services. gert -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
It is very convenient to reason what and who needs to be 10,000-12,000 kilometers from the scene of events. On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:58 AM Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:51:51AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
Gert Doering how many resources do you have registered in Ukraine?
None, but this is not a relevant question here.
There is a proposal on the table, which got shot down by a number of individuals that claim that "selling IPv4 addresses" is crucial to their businesses. I can find this shady as much as I want, but it is still clear that there is no consensus for the original proposal.
Thus, alternatives have been proposed, so you and Max can continue to sell IPv4 addresses, while others can keep the Infrastructure up and provide services.
gert -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi, On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:01:55AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
It is very convenient to reason what and who needs to be 10,000-12,000 kilometers from the scene of events.
We, as "the RIPE community", are trying to help. Otherwise we would not need to have this whole discussion. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Quite right! The topic was raised by people from the authorities who have nothing to do with LIR, but they speak on behalf of all LIRs in Ukraine! On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:04 AM Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:01:55AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
It is very convenient to reason what and who needs to be 10,000-12,000 kilometers from the scene of events.
We, as "the RIPE community", are trying to help.
Otherwise we would not need to have this whole discussion.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi, On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:08:29AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
Quite right! The topic was raised by people from the authorities who have nothing to do with LIR, but they speak on behalf of all LIRs in Ukraine!
Someone needs to raise a topic, and it then needs to be evaluated and discussed based on its merits, not on who raised it. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
You need to understand why people from power want to do business on this without having anything to do with LIR. I think that blocking your LIR with a button and a certain unlocking mechanism will be the best solution for everyone. On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:09 AM Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:08:29AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
Quite right! The topic was raised by people from the authorities who have nothing to do with LIR, but they speak on behalf of all LIRs in Ukraine!
Someone needs to raise a topic, and it then needs to be evaluated and discussed based on its merits, not on who raised it.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Or may be you mean Fedienko? Then for sure yes, it is a crime in Ukraine for him to run any business, as he is a parliament deputy. 31.10.22 12:16, Leonid Khorolets пише:
You need to understand why people from power want to do business on this without having anything to do with LIR. I think that blocking your LIR with a button and a certain unlocking mechanism will be the best solution for everyone.
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:09 AM Gert Doering <gert@space.net <mailto:gert@space.net>> wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:08:29AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote: > Quite right! The topic was raised by people from the authorities who have > nothing to do with LIR, but they speak on behalf of all LIRs in Ukraine!
Someone needs to raise a topic, and it then needs to be evaluated and discussed based on its merits, not on who raised it.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Good afternoon, I congratulate Maksym Tulyev’s good friend - Mr. Leonid Khorolets ( I am attaching a photo of these friends) https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=419278544911556&set=p.419278544911556&type=3 <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=419278544911556&set=p.419278544911556&type=3> I am the director and co-owner of the company WEB PRO, UKRAINIAN LIR Registry ID:ua.webpro, a communication operator that continues to work under bombs. I am not a person from the authorities, I have nothing to do with government bodies (these are only my clients), I do not trade IP addresses compared to YOU, and first of all I think about the security of my network and other operators. Also, I represent not only my interests, but also the interests of the Internet Association of Ukraine, which delegated me to the conference. AS A BOARD MEMBER, MAXIM TULYEV has done nothing since 2014 except to protect his business by making money from the sale of IP addresses. Thank you for your support of Ukraine, I hope this will continue to be the solution. Pay attention, we are not talking about any financial restrictions of citizens of Ukraine, every day we are constantly cyberattacked by IP addresses, this is one of the components of the issue of cyber security. I support the proposals that we, representatives of the public sector, voiced at the conference. I remind you that we look for constructive discussions and are looking for solutions. I continue many consultations on our issue, collect the evidence base both with the help of coercion, threats to life and forged documents, the operators were left without networks. This is the first step to IP transfer And let me remind, that Ukrainian comunity LIR to be those that are currently in Ukraine, not in Spain! I want to summarize - this hysteria that is happening gives me strength. Because we are on the right path. Together we will win! _______________ Best regards, Olena Kushnir www.webpro.ua
31 жовт. 2022 р. о 11:16 Leonid Khorolets <inetcomas29442@gmail.com> написав(ла):
You need to understand why people from power want to do business on this without having anything to do with LIR. I think that blocking your LIR with a button and a certain unlocking mechanism will be the best solution for everyone.
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:09 AM Gert Doering <gert@space.net <mailto:gert@space.net>> wrote: Hi,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:08:29AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
Quite right! The topic was raised by people from the authorities who have nothing to do with LIR, but they speak on behalf of all LIRs in Ukraine!
Someone needs to raise a topic, and it then needs to be evaluated and discussed based on its merits, not on who raised it.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg
охранить перевод Great photos and memories, but what do they have to do with this topic? Max has been known by most IT people since FIDO. On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 12:41 PM Олена Кушнір <kea@webpro.net.ua> wrote:
Good afternoon, I congratulate Maksym Tulyev’s good friend - Mr. Leonid Khorolets ( I am attaching a photo of these friends)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=419278544911556&set=p.419278544911556&type=3
I am the director and co-owner of the company WEB PRO, UKRAINIAN LIR Registry ID:ua.webpro, a communication operator that continues to work under bombs. I am not a person from the authorities, I have nothing to do with government bodies (these are only my clients), I do not trade IP addresses compared to YOU, and first of all I think about the security of my network and other operators. Also, I represent not only my interests, but also the interests of the Internet Association of Ukraine, which delegated me to the conference. AS A BOARD MEMBER, MAXIM TULYEV has done nothing since 2014 except to protect his business by making money from the sale of IP addresses. Thank you for your support of Ukraine, I hope this will continue to be the solution. Pay attention, we are not talking about any financial restrictions of citizens of Ukraine, every day we are constantly cyberattacked by IP addresses, this is one of the components of the issue of cyber security. I support the proposals that we, representatives of the public sector, voiced at the conference. I remind you that we look for constructive discussions and are looking for solutions. I continue many consultations on our issue, collect the evidence base both with the help of coercion, threats to life and forged documents, the operators were left without networks. This is the first step to IP transfer
And let me remind, that Ukrainian comunity LIR to be those that are currently in Ukraine, not in Spain!
I want to summarize - this hysteria that is happening gives me strength. Because we are on the right path.
Together we will win!
_______________ Best regards, Olena Kushnir
www.webpro.ua
31 жовт. 2022 р. о 11:16 Leonid Khorolets <inetcomas29442@gmail.com> написав(ла):
You need to understand why people from power want to do business on this without having anything to do with LIR. I think that blocking your LIR with a button and a certain unlocking mechanism will be the best solution for everyone.
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:09 AM Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:08:29AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
Quite right! The topic was raised by people from the authorities who have nothing to do with LIR, but they speak on behalf of all LIRs in Ukraine!
Someone needs to raise a topic, and it then needs to be evaluated and discussed based on its merits, not on who raised it.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
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31.10.22 13:41, Олена Кушнір пише:
Good afternoon, I congratulate Maksym Tulyev’s good friend - Mr. Leonid Khorolets ( I am attaching a photo of these friends) https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=419278544911556&set=p.419278544911556&type=3 <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=419278544911556&set=p.419278544911556&type=3>
Really we are not a close friends, but yes, we know each other, like I know you, for example. If you want to talk about it - let me remind you that Fedienko is not only your friend - this is a person who your business depend on. The majority of WebPro customers are government and state companies, so if he will be not satisfied - you will lost your customers.
I do not trade IP addresses compared to YOU, and first of all I think about the security of my network and other operators.
Trading of IPv4 address space, which is only a part of my business, is a legal business. If you want IPv4 - buy it on the market. If you do not like me - buy it from another seller, ask for financial help or donations. But do not try to steal it from mine and my customers, closing the market with government-based regulations. Once again: THIS IS NOT YOUR RESOURCES. And we (officially) not a communist country.
Also, I represent not only my interests, but also the interests of the Internet Association of Ukraine, which delegated me to the conference.
This is clear lie. All delegations, statements, presenting and so on in InAU can be only after board members voting about it. There was no vote about your delegation. I have just asked our managing director (may be I forgot something?) - and he confirmed it too. May be you have similar "mandates" from other associations? Needs to be checked well.
TULYEV has done nothing since 2014
Again, you can just see through the RIPE mailing list archives.
I continue many consultations on our issue,
And again, THERE IS NO ISSUE at all. Only your fantasies.
Hello everyone, let’s try to be a working group and try to work on solution, not new troubles and argues. For now, all of it looks bad, some “shady games”, after I’ve asked some questions on RIPE 85 about this “suspend UA” ideas, I have received threats and was asked to shut up for “my own good”. Now about problem and solution, I think we should lean to idea of “self suspend” for a 1/2 years button or just using RIPE LIR support ticket and more investigation and due diligence on all transfer tickets from occupied territories of Ukraine. On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 at 15:08, Max Tulyev <maxtul@netassist.ua> wrote:
31.10.22 13:41, Олена Кушнір пише:
Good afternoon, I congratulate Maksym Tulyev’s good friend - Mr. Leonid Khorolets ( I am attaching a photo of these friends)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=419278544911556&set=p.419278544911556&type=3
< https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=419278544911556&set=p.419278544911556&type=3
Really we are not a close friends, but yes, we know each other, like I know you, for example.
If you want to talk about it - let me remind you that Fedienko is not only your friend - this is a person who your business depend on. The majority of WebPro customers are government and state companies, so if he will be not satisfied - you will lost your customers.
I do not trade IP addresses compared to YOU, and first of all I think about the security of my network and other operators.
Trading of IPv4 address space, which is only a part of my business, is a legal business. If you want IPv4 - buy it on the market. If you do not like me - buy it from another seller, ask for financial help or donations. But do not try to steal it from mine and my customers, closing the market with government-based regulations.
Once again: THIS IS NOT YOUR RESOURCES. And we (officially) not a communist country.
Also, I represent not only my interests, but also the interests of the Internet Association of Ukraine, which delegated me to the conference.
This is clear lie.
All delegations, statements, presenting and so on in InAU can be only after board members voting about it. There was no vote about your delegation. I have just asked our managing director (may be I forgot something?) - and he confirmed it too.
May be you have similar "mandates" from other associations? Needs to be checked well.
TULYEV has done nothing since 2014
Again, you can just see through the RIPE mailing list archives.
I continue many consultations on our issue,
And again, THERE IS NO ISSUE at all. Only your fantasies.
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-- С уважением, Артем КСТ
Very interesting. I also got a threat of physical violence from Fedienko bacause of my mails in this working group yesterday, but it was in a public chat, in a presence of NCC board member Ondřej Filip. It looks like they think this is a mafia home, don't afraid to do anyting... 31.10.22 18:28, Артем Зубков пише:
Hello everyone, let’s try to be a working group and try to work on solution, not new troubles and argues. For now, all of it looks bad, some “shady games”, after I’ve asked some questions on RIPE 85 about this “suspend UA” ideas, I have received threats and was asked to shut up for “my own good”.
Hello, An option, for all members, to block an outgoing transfer for all ranges or a certain set of ranges within a LIR would be good. Blocking it for 1 of 2 years, while able to renew the blocking while it didn't end. This would improve security in general (eg when an account is hacked). An option to remove the block earlier (eg by visiting a RIPE NCC office or meeting with some RIPE NCC staff elsewhere) could be an option. I support this idea. I see no direct reason to limit this to a subset of LIRs. Regards, Mark
-----Original Message----- From: ncc-services-wg <ncc-services-wg-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Max Tulyev Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 17:50 To: ncc-services-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] UA IP transfers situation
Very interesting.
I also got a threat of physical violence from Fedienko bacause of my mails in this working group yesterday, but it was in a public chat, in a presence of NCC board member Ondřej Filip.
It looks like they think this is a mafia home, don't afraid to do anyting...
31.10.22 18:28, Артем Зубков пише:
Hello everyone, let’s try to be a working group and try to work on solution, not new troubles and argues. For now, all of it looks bad, some “shady games”, after I’ve asked some questions on RIPE 85 about this “suspend UA” ideas, I have received threats and was asked to shut up for “my own good”.
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Hello, that's so-called "The Red Button" proposal. I support it too. 31.10.22 20:23, Mark Scholten пише:
Hello,
An option, for all members, to block an outgoing transfer for all ranges or a certain set of ranges within a LIR would be good. Blocking it for 1 of 2 years, while able to renew the blocking while it didn't end. This would improve security in general (eg when an account is hacked). An option to remove the block earlier (eg by visiting a RIPE NCC office or meeting with some RIPE NCC staff elsewhere) could be an option.
I support this idea.
I see no direct reason to limit this to a subset of LIRs.
Regards, Mark
-----Original Message----- From: ncc-services-wg <ncc-services-wg-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Max Tulyev Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 17:50 To: ncc-services-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] UA IP transfers situation
Very interesting.
I also got a threat of physical violence from Fedienko bacause of my mails in this working group yesterday, but it was in a public chat, in a presence of NCC board member Ondřej Filip.
It looks like they think this is a mafia home, don't afraid to do anyting...
31.10.22 18:28, Артем Зубков пише:
Hello everyone, let’s try to be a working group and try to work on solution, not new troubles and argues. For now, all of it looks bad, some “shady games”, after I’ve asked some questions on RIPE 85 about this “suspend UA” ideas, I have received threats and was asked to shut up for “my own good”.
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 authorities == evil ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, October 31st, 2022 at 12:08 PM, Leonid Khorolets <inetcomas29442@gmail.com> wrote:
Quite right! The topic was raised by people from the authorities who have nothing to do with LIR, but they speak on behalf of all LIRs in Ukraine!
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:04 AM Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:01:55AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
It is very convenient to reason what and who needs to be 10,000-12,000 kilometers from the scene of events.
We, as "the RIPE community", are trying to help.
Otherwise we would not need to have this whole discussion.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: ProtonMail
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That's just not true. I still run a few LIR companies in Ukraine. One of the LIR does support for more than 260 PI resources. That's my primary business to help and protect them. 31.10.22 12:08, Leonid Khorolets пише:
Quite right! The topic was raised by people from the authorities who have nothing to do with LIR, but they speak on behalf of all LIRs in Ukraine!
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:04 AM Gert Doering <gert@space.net <mailto:gert@space.net>> wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:01:55AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote: > It is very convenient to reason what and who needs to be 10,000-12,000 > kilometers from the scene of events.
We, as "the RIPE community", are trying to help.
Otherwise we would not need to have this whole discussion.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
I can't argue this, as it is a possibility. It just does not seem overly convincing in the overall context. Considering I have done this for my company earlier this year (however unrelated to Ukraine or any other wars), I very much think this is a realistic possibility. Very few people here are saying they are selling IP resources as a business, but it can still be a source of some emergency cash when things are not going as expected. In any case, it seems infinitely more likely than IP resources being stolen in the RIPE region, considering it clearly is happening and there have not been any actual confirmed (or even alleged) cases of resources being stolen from Ukrainian LIRs. I don't think any resource lock should be applied automatically, as it is easy enough to miss such a notification. Having an opt-in resource lock might be a possibility, but we also need to consider the possibility of a rogue employee (perhaps shortly before being fired or quitting, but even outside of this) activating a resource lock that could then cause significant financial harm to the LIR. We also need to consider that ownership and management of a company can change completely for legitimate reasons. Maybe there could be an opt in button with a notification being sent to all LIR contacts with an opportunity of a week or two to cancel it? — Matthias Merkel [https://cdn.staclar.com/logos/novecore/newlogo.png] [Sent from Front] On October 31, 2022 at 10:52 AM GMT+1 inetcomas29442@gmail.com<mailto:inetcomas29442@gmail.com> wrote: Gert Doering how many resources do you have registered in Ukraine? On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:47 AM Gert Doering <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> wrote: Hi, On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 10:37:01AM +0100, Leonid Khorolets wrote:
For example, to transport your IP with infrastructure to a European state where there is no power outage, etc.
For this, I do not need a transfer to another LIR. While it's still "my Internet business", it can be located anywhere - the sort of transfer stop we're talking about is "move to another LIR", not "move to another location" (which is of no interest to the RIPE NCC, as it's still the same resource holder).
Also sell part of the IP to maintain business and pay salaries in a war and the company's profits fall into the red.
I can't argue this, as it is a possibility. It just does not seem overly convincing in the overall context. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
participants (9)
-
Elad Cohen -
Gert Doering -
Leonid Khorolets -
Mark Scholten -
Matthias Merkel -
Max Tulyev -
Viktoriia Opanasiuk -
Артем Зубков -
Олена Кушнір