NRO letter to Mauritian Government
Hi, I just read the message from the NRO (co-signed by Hans Petter Holen on behalf of the RIPE NCC) to the Mauritian Government: https://www.nro.net/nro-letter-to-mauritius-government/ and I must say I was shocked. The letter is about the lawsuits of Cloud Innovation Ltd (Lu Heng) against AFRINIC. The NRO is urging the government to recognise AFRINIC as an international organisation "that if granted, it might lead to more appropriate outcomes”. So basically the NRO is urging the Mauritian government’s executive branch to intervene in its judicial branch. Asking a government is to violate their separation of powers is NOT OK™. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t like Lu Heng and the way he does business, but not all his lawsuits are without merit, so this is something for the Mauritian court to decide. The NRO pushing the government to intervene goes against the basis of the democratic system. The letter even does more than urging. It basically threatens/insults Mauritius: """ To successfully operate a continental wide entity such as AFRINIC, the African Internet community deliberately chose to locate its headquarters in Mauritius in order to obtain the benefit of a stable and consistent legal system. [...] It would be very unfortunate for the African regional community if the above situation proves that the designation of Mauritius as the place to locate AFRINIC has been wrong. """ This letter has raised some eyebrows around the world (and as I understand it in Brussels) to say the least. I would like a response from the RIPE NCC and its board on how they have dared to write such a letter. Sincerely, Sander Steffann
On 13/07/2022 12:57, Sander Steffann wrote: I personally see nothing wrong. The NRO is requesting that AFRINIC be granted status as an "international organization" based on Mauritius law. One can always read a text and see things between the lines that don't exist. I do not see nefarious activity by the NRO here. I see the NRO doing what it was mandated to do. Regards, Hank
Hi,
I just read the message from the NRO (co-signed by Hans Petter Holen on behalf of the RIPE NCC) to the Mauritian Government: https://www.nro.net/nro-letter-to-mauritius-government/ and I must say I was shocked.
The letter is about the lawsuits of Cloud Innovation Ltd (Lu Heng) against AFRINIC. The NRO is urging the government to recognise AFRINIC as an international organisation "that if granted, it might lead to more appropriate outcomes”. So basically the NRO is urging the Mauritian government’s executive branch to intervene in its judicial branch. Asking a government is to violate their separation of powers is NOT OK™.
Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t like Lu Heng and the way he does business, but not all his lawsuits are without merit, so this is something for the Mauritian court to decide. The NRO pushing the government to intervene goes against the basis of the democratic system.
The letter even does more than urging. It basically threatens/insults Mauritius:
""" To successfully operate a continental wide entity such as AFRINIC, the African Internet community deliberately chose to locate its headquarters in Mauritius in order to obtain the benefit of a stable and consistent legal system. [...] It would be very unfortunate for the African regional community if the above situation proves that the designation of Mauritius as the place to locate AFRINIC has been wrong. """
This letter has raised some eyebrows around the world (and as I understand it in Brussels) to say the least. I would like a response from the RIPE NCC and its board on how they have dared to write such a letter.
Sincerely, Sander Steffann
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I personally see nothing wrong. The NRO is requesting that AFRINIC be granted status as an "international organization" based on Mauritius law. One can always read a text and see things between the lines that don't exist. I do not see nefarious activity by the NRO here. I see the NRO doing what it was mandated to do.
yup
I wonder if all other RIRs are "international organizations". If not, then why AFRINIC should? 14.07.2022 07:14, Hank Nussbacher пишет:
On 13/07/2022 12:57, Sander Steffann wrote:
I personally see nothing wrong. The NRO is requesting that AFRINIC be granted status as an "international organization" based on Mauritius law. One can always read a text and see things between the lines that don't exist. I do not see nefarious activity by the NRO here. I see the NRO doing what it was mandated to do.
Regards, Hank
-- Kind regards, --- D.Sidelnikov
On 14/07/2022 21:10, Dimitri I Sidelnikov wrote: The NRO Executive Council consists of 1 rep from each RIR. Since the NRO sent out the letter I assume they know their own status and what AFRINIC needs. Regards, Hank
I wonder if all other RIRs are "international organizations". If not, then why AFRINIC should?
14.07.2022 07:14, Hank Nussbacher пишет:
On 13/07/2022 12:57, Sander Steffann wrote:
I personally see nothing wrong. The NRO is requesting that AFRINIC be granted status as an "international organization" based on Mauritius law. One can always read a text and see things between the lines that don't exist. I do not see nefarious activity by the NRO here. I see the NRO doing what it was mandated to do.
Regards, Hank
Hank Nussbacher <hank@interall.co.il> ha scritto:
On 13/07/2022 12:57, Sander Steffann wrote:
I personally see nothing wrong. The NRO is requesting that AFRINIC be granted status as an "international organization" based on Mauritius law. One can always read a text and see things between the lines that don't exist. I do not see nefarious activity by the NRO here. I see the NRO doing what it was mandated to do.
That letter if full of nonsense. AFRINIC is not an "international organization": an international organization requires a treaty between all the involved countries, and AFAIK such a treaty does not exist... So, AFRNIC is subjected to his country law, as anything nd anyone else... Even more: asking a government to interfere in judicial activity is always very delicate, and almost always wrong. Regards Franco Tauceri DOMAINREGISTER m: 39.3483064202 w: https://DomainRegister.international e: franco.tauceri@domainregister.it
Hi everybody, So, after clearing up my position against Lu Heng (assuming that messages makes it through the moderation queue before this one), I’d like to focus again on what I was actually trying to say. I wrote my previous message while very angry, and my wording has caused some confusion and offence. My apologies. I therefore like to clarify some things: First of all, I have no opinion on whether AFRINIC should be regarded as an international organisation by the Mauritian government or not. I don’t even know what that means. I have however checked the AGM and board meeting minutes, and there is no mention of requesting a special status anywhere. So it’s at the least very weird that other RIRs sent a letter to the Mauritian government pushing for it. But ok, that is not what upset me. The first thing that upset me was the mention "that if granted, it might lead to more appropriate outcomes” in the context of the lawsuits going on at the moment. Who are we (the RIRs are speaking on the member’s behalf after all) to decide what is “appropriate” here? I spoke to a CEO of one of the RIRs after sending this email, and they told me that they meant that it shouldn’t be possible to have ex-parte rulings against AFRINIC, like what happened last year where AFRINIC’s bank accounts were frozen for months. I fully agree that that was bad and unfair. But if that is all that concerns the RIRs, then that is not clear from their letter. The contents and tone of the letter are quite different. And in my view the tone gets even worse when talking about whether Mauritius and the Mauritian legal system (I have heard it called “too French, not English enough” in private, but I won’t attribute that) would be the wrong place for AFRINIC. This attitude, coming from non African organisations, triggered all the anti-colonialist nerves in my body. Hence my strong wording. And the last sentence of my message, asking how they “dared” to do this, was certainly written in anger, and I should never have worded it like that. My apologies for that. I hope providing this extra context aids in asking for forgiveness for that. Cheers, Sander
Dear Sander, all, The RIPE NCC is part of the NRO, together with the other four RIRs. This body has a very clear mission to actively contribute to an open, stable and secure Internet. Where joint action or a common voice among the RIRs is needed, the NRO provides the platform that allows that to happen. Through the NRO, we, along with the other RIRs, have been supporting the efforts to maintain a stable Internet presence in Africa. And this letter from the NRO is part of those supporting efforts: https://www.nro.net/nro-letter-to-mauritius-government/ The NRO’s letter was a joint effort by the legal teams of the five RIRs, after AFRINIC requested our support in the matter. We firmly believe it was important to add our name alongside the other RIRs and collectively put our weight behind AFRINIC’s request to the Mauritian government. I understand that not everyone will agree with this approach. I and my fellow NRO EC members are committed, however, to being as transparent as possible about any such communications to governments and welcome any discussions in our communities. This is how it should be. I believe you are aware that the RIPE NCC and all the RIRs regularly deal with governments when they believe it is necessary to protect the Internet number registry system. Indeed, we regularly communicate with the Dutch government in relation to sanctions, and we have published much of our correspondence with other governments, in line with our commitment to be transparent in these matters. If, as the RIPE NCC, we felt that such interactions with governments could be helped by adding the weight of the NRO, I hope the other RIRs would consider lending their voice to such matters. Finally, the RIR system is bigger than any of its individual RIRs, so I will reiterate what the NRO stated in its recent message asking the AFRINIC community to come together to solve issues with its RIR: “The regional activities and policy process of an RIR are solely in the hands of that community, but the health of those processes is of paramount importance to the global Internet community.” https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ This is why the NRO was willing to support AFRINIC in its requests to the Mauritian government - while it is up to each RIR community to address issues with their own RIR, it is up to all RIRs to address issues that can impact the overall system. To not do so would constitute inadequate governance on the part of the RIRs. I understand that you do not agree with the approach taken here, but I hope you will understand why the RIPE NCC and its Board feels it is important that we stand together on this matter. Regards, Hans Petter Holen Christian Kaufmann Managing Director Chairman RIPE NCC RIPE NCC Executive Board
On 13 Jul 2022, at 11:57, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi,
I just read the message from the NRO (co-signed by Hans Petter Holen on behalf of the RIPE NCC) to the Mauritian Government: https://www.nro.net/nro-letter-to-mauritius-government/ and I must say I was shocked.
The letter is about the lawsuits of Cloud Innovation Ltd (Lu Heng) against AFRINIC. The NRO is urging the government to recognise AFRINIC as an international organisation "that if granted, it might lead to more appropriate outcomes”. So basically the NRO is urging the Mauritian government’s executive branch to intervene in its judicial branch. Asking a government is to violate their separation of powers is NOT OK™.
Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t like Lu Heng and the way he does business, but not all his lawsuits are without merit, so this is something for the Mauritian court to decide. The NRO pushing the government to intervene goes against the basis of the democratic system.
The letter even does more than urging. It basically threatens/insults Mauritius:
""" To successfully operate a continental wide entity such as AFRINIC, the African Internet community deliberately chose to locate its headquarters in Mauritius in order to obtain the benefit of a stable and consistent legal system. [...] It would be very unfortunate for the African regional community if the above situation proves that the designation of Mauritius as the place to locate AFRINIC has been wrong. """
This letter has raised some eyebrows around the world (and as I understand it in Brussels) to say the least. I would like a response from the RIPE NCC and its board on how they have dared to write such a letter.
Sincerely, Sander Steffann
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/hph%40ripe.net
Hi Hans Petter,
The NRO’s letter was a joint effort by the legal teams of the five RIRs, after AFRINIC requested our support in the matter. We firmly believe it was important to add our name alongside the other RIRs and collectively put our weight behind AFRINIC’s request to the Mauritian government.
There is nothing wrong with that (although a have seen no board resolution or community mandate in AFRINIC to this effect, but that’s up to the AFRINIC community to discuss). I do however have big problem with the language used in that letter, as I have made clear in this email and follow up emails. You have omitted responding to that. As that is the core question i would ask you and the board to respond to that please. Cheers, Sander
Dear Hans, if you and the Board were so keen on transparency and discussion, you would have brought the letter to the community for feedback prior to signing it. my only .2c Elvis On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 02:16 Hans Petter Holen <hph@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Sander, all,
The RIPE NCC is part of the NRO, together with the other four RIRs. This body has a very clear mission to actively contribute to an open, stable and secure Internet. Where joint action or a common voice among the RIRs is needed, the NRO provides the platform that allows that to happen. Through the NRO, we, along with the other RIRs, have been supporting the efforts to maintain a stable Internet presence in Africa. And this letter from the NRO is part of those supporting efforts: https://www.nro.net/nro-letter-to-mauritius-government/
The NRO’s letter was a joint effort by the legal teams of the five RIRs, after AFRINIC requested our support in the matter. We firmly believe it was important to add our name alongside the other RIRs and collectively put our weight behind AFRINIC’s request to the Mauritian government.
I understand that not everyone will agree with this approach. I and my fellow NRO EC members are committed, however, to being as transparent as possible about any such communications to governments and welcome any discussions in our communities. This is how it should be. I believe you are aware that the RIPE NCC and all the RIRs regularly deal with governments when they believe it is necessary to protect the Internet number registry system. Indeed, we regularly communicate with the Dutch government in relation to sanctions, and we have published much of our correspondence with other governments, in line with our commitment to be transparent in these matters. If, as the RIPE NCC, we felt that such interactions with governments could be helped by adding the weight of the NRO, I hope the other RIRs would consider lending their voice to such matters.
Finally, the RIR system is bigger than any of its individual RIRs, so I will reiterate what the NRO stated in its recent message asking the AFRINIC community to come together to solve issues with its RIR: “The regional activities and policy process of an RIR are solely in the hands of that community, but the health of those processes is of paramount importance to the global Internet community.” https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/
This is why the NRO was willing to support AFRINIC in its requests to the Mauritian government - while it is up to each RIR community to address issues with their own RIR, it is up to all RIRs to address issues that can impact the overall system. To not do so would constitute inadequate governance on the part of the RIRs. I understand that you do not agree with the approach taken here, but I hope you will understand why the RIPE NCC and its Board feels it is important that we stand together on this matter.
Regards,
Hans Petter Holen Christian Kaufmann Managing Director Chairman RIPE NCC RIPE NCC Executive Board
On 13 Jul 2022, at 11:57, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi,
I just read the message from the NRO (co-signed by Hans Petter Holen on behalf of the RIPE NCC) to the Mauritian Government: https://www.nro.net/nro-letter-to-mauritius-government/ and I must say I was shocked.
The letter is about the lawsuits of Cloud Innovation Ltd (Lu Heng) against AFRINIC. The NRO is urging the government to recognise AFRINIC as an international organisation "that if granted, it might lead to more appropriate outcomes”. So basically the NRO is urging the Mauritian government’s executive branch to intervene in its judicial branch. Asking a government is to violate their separation of powers is NOT OK™.
Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t like Lu Heng and the way he does business, but not all his lawsuits are without merit, so this is something for the Mauritian court to decide. The NRO pushing the government to intervene goes against the basis of the democratic system.
The letter even does more than urging. It basically threatens/insults Mauritius:
""" To successfully operate a continental wide entity such as AFRINIC, the African Internet community deliberately chose to locate its headquarters in Mauritius in order to obtain the benefit of a stable and consistent legal system. [...] It would be very unfortunate for the African regional community if the above situation proves that the designation of Mauritius as the place to locate AFRINIC has been wrong. """
This letter has raised some eyebrows around the world (and as I understand it in Brussels) to say the least. I would like a response from the RIPE NCC and its board on how they have dared to write such a letter.
Sincerely, Sander Steffann
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-- This message was sent from a mobile device. Some typos may be possible.
Hi Elvis,
if you and the Board were so keen on transparency and discussion, you would have brought the letter to the community for feedback prior to signing it.
I have to take it up for the board and Hans Petter here. What you suggest would be unworkable. That would imply that the RIPE NCC couldn’t operate independently anymore and would be micro managed by its members. That is also not ok. Cheers, Sander
Hi Sander, On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 02:33 Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi Elvis,
if you and the Board were so keen on transparency and discussion, you would have brought the letter to the community for feedback prior to signing it.
I have to take it up for the board and Hans Petter here. What you suggest would be unworkable. That would imply that the RIPE NCC couldn’t operate independently anymore and would be micro managed by its members. That is also not ok.
this situation is not something unforeseen. this whole AfriNIC issue has been brewing up for years… this letter could have been discussed before it became an emergency on the other hand, the letter, the tone, what it suggests… that is a big thing that may ruin reputation worked and fought for decades. Question for CK and HPH: Is there such a thing as an ‘International Organization’ in the Dutch Law? Has the RIPE NCC requested such status for itself before asking it for another RIR?
Cheers, Sander
cheers, elvis PS: I still think I am in a simulation or a dream. This text should not have been written, corrected, approved, signed. Never ever! What right does the NRO have to speak on behalf of the ‘African regional community’ on such harsh terms? ‘It would be very unfortunate for the African regional community if the above situation proves that the designation of Mauritius as the place to locate AFRINIC has been wrong.’
-- This message was sent from a mobile device. Some typos may be possible.
Hi, On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 4:38 PM Elvis Daniel Velea <elvis@v4escrow.net> wrote:
[...]
Question for CK and HPH: Is there such a thing as an ‘International Organization’ in the Dutch Law? Has the RIPE NCC requested such status for itself before asking it for another RIR?
I do want to point out that as HPH mentioned, the RIPE NCC has talked with the dutch government with regards to sanctions which I would probably consider pretty similar. Also I understand this as a request that possibly originated with AFRINIC although it is a bit unclear and a clarification on this could be helpful. I do not want to really get too involved in this debate though I do want to make it clear that I don't really see this as necessarily as too different from what the RIPE NCC has requested from the Dutch government, however I don't know much about Mauritius Law or what classification as an international organization could imply. -Cynthia
There is huge difference between an 'International Organisation' and a local incorporated entity (such as RIPE, ARIN etc). The fact that you have a conversation with the Dutch government about sanctions does not make you an IO. And having a conversation with the Dutch government is very easy, so absolutely nothing to be impressed by. The list of IO's The Netherlands recognises: https://www.government.nl/topics/international-organisations/multilateral-fo... (RIPE is missing as it is 'just' an Association) https://uia.org/archive/types-organization/cc gives a very detailed explainer about IO's. (The NGO part is of relevance here) So writing a letter, asking Mauritius to view AFRINIC as an IO while non of the other RIR's are IO's, is a bit 'strange' and most likely not at all helpful. -- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221 On Tue, 19-07-2022 19h 21min, Cynthia Revström via members-discuss <members-discuss@ripe.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 4:38 PM Elvis Daniel Velea " target="_blank"><elvis@v4escrow.net> wrote:
[...]
Question for CK and HPH: Is there such a thing as an ‘International Organization’ in the Dutch Law? Has the RIPE NCC requested such status for itself before asking it for another RIR?
I do want to point out that as HPH mentioned, the RIPE NCC has talked with the dutch government with regards to sanctions which I would probably consider pretty similar. Also I understand this as a request that possibly originated with AFRINIC although it is a bit unclear and a clarification on this could be helpful.
I do not want to really get too involved in this debate though I do want to make it clear that I don't really see this as necessarily as too different from what the RIPE NCC has requested from the Dutch government, however I don't know much about Mauritius Law or what classification as an international organization could imply.
-Cynthia
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The Dutch government recognizes the following international organizations https://www.government.nl/topics/international-organisations/multilateral-fo... Almost all countries have a concept of international organization, which is not to be confused with associations and corporate entities, with their own criteria on what they wish to recognize and invite to their country. Usually, these organizations exist in a country because the host government is part of them one way or another (UN, NATO, ICJ, etc.) and the privileges extended of course depend on the treaty between the organization and the host country itself. Kaj From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Elvis Daniel Velea Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2022 13:31 To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> Cc: Christian Kaufmann <exec-board@ripe.net>; members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] NRO letter to Mauritian Government Hi Sander, On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 02:33 Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> wrote: Hi Elvis,
if you and the Board were so keen on transparency and discussion, you would have brought the letter to the community for feedback prior to signing it.
I have to take it up for the board and Hans Petter here. What you suggest would be unworkable. That would imply that the RIPE NCC couldn’t operate independently anymore and would be micro managed by its members. That is also not ok. this situation is not something unforeseen. this whole AfriNIC issue has been brewing up for years… this letter could have been discussed before it became an emergency on the other hand, the letter, the tone, what it suggests… that is a big thing that may ruin reputation worked and fought for decades. Question for CK and HPH: Is there such a thing as an ‘International Organization’ in the Dutch Law? Has the RIPE NCC requested such status for itself before asking it for another RIR? Cheers, Sander cheers, elvis PS: I still think I am in a simulation or a dream. This text should not have been written, corrected, approved, signed. Never ever! What right does the NRO have to speak on behalf of the ‘African regional community’ on such harsh terms? ‘It would be very unfortunate for the African regional community if the above situation proves that the designation of Mauritius as the place to locate AFRINIC has been wrong.’ -- This message was sent from a mobile device. Some typos may be possible.
Hi I think the following commentary would be interesting to the members. The world's Regional Internet Registries (RIRs), coordinated by Number Resource Organization (NRO), manage the distribution of Internet Protocol (IP) addresses in five continents respectively. Although far less well known than domain names, IP addresses are also the critical resources essential to the proper function of the global internet. As the steward of the critical address resources, NRO and all the Regional Registries are highly respected technical organizations. However, many people in the internet community are surprised, though not in a lovely way, by the NRO's public call requesting Mauritius government to intervene in a court case in which AFRINIC was sued by a company reportedly located in Hong Kong for a contractual dispute. AFRINIC is the RIR for Africa, established in 2004 and headquartered in Ebene, Mauritius. Since the case involves the complicated legal and internet governance issues during a long period of time, the merit and procedure of the case cannot be elaborated in such a short piece. But anyone, of course, has the right to comment or opine on the case and may well have the different propositions or preferences. But the NRO's Open Letter dated July 12, 2022 to Mauritius Foreign Minister and Attorney General uncommonly requests the government take action against the on-going court proceeding in a country with "stable and consistent legal system." Should the NRO's request be successful, Mauritius would hardly be able to maintain her "stable and consistent legal system" simply because judicial independence, the cornerstone of rule of law, would be subverted. Since AFRINIC deliberately chose "Mauritius as the most appropriate place to host this fundamental role for the regional Internet", it shall comply with the laws and court orders of that country. The NRO's belief that preservation and protection of "the independence of AFRINIC" be only achieved through repudiating Mauritius legal system that actually "benefit" AFRINIC is entirely paradoxical. The contractual dispute is a civil dispute in nature. The NRO's blames on both the "abusive" litigation and Mauritius court orders (such as the interim measure to freeze the AFRINIC's bank account) should be able to be reviewed or resolved within the legal system of Mauritius. Instead of keeping any faith in the "stable and consistent legal system" from which AFRINIC chose to reside in order to obtain the benefit, the NRO's resort to the government powers to influence or control the court proceeding seems arbitrary, cynical and a bit arrogant to a sovereignty state. Doing so is of little help to AFRINIC that is subject to the territorial jurisdiction of Mauritius. Doesn't NRO consider that its proactive Letter could make AFRINIC less welcome in local host country? More interestingly, the NRO requests in the letter that the AFRINIC be recognized from Mauritius "as an international organization." Actually, what's requested by the NRO is the legal immunity granted to the legal status of an international organization. However, only Intergovernmental Organizations (IGOs) created through multilateral international treaties, like the UN based in New York or World Trade Organization (WTO) based in Geneva, are entitled to the legal status of privileges or immunities based upon the respective founding charters or treaties. AFRINIC, as stated at www.afrinic.net, is a nonprofit and member-based organization registered and operating under the Corporate Legal Frameworks of Mauritius. Irrespective of the NRO's call to recognize AFRINIC as an international organization "as rapidly as possible", obviously, no such international treaty exists at the moment. Before requesting for AFRINIC's legal status of an international organization, the international treaty that can support the NRO's request has to be concluded. Notwithstanding AFRINIC's importance to Africa, including but not limited to providing the services to internet operators, fostering digital culture throughout the region, and supporting regional digital economy, it will inevitably take years for African countries to convene, negotiate and reach an agreement on the treaty for AFRINIC. Actually, very few internet organizations transform into treaty organizations. Most of them remain non-governmental nonprofit organizations. For example, both the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers and Internet Engineering Task Force, two most influential global internet organizations, are incorporated under the American laws without any treaty immunity status. Although the pros and cons about the so-called "UN model" has been hotly debated for a couple of years, technical community is largely not keen of transforming into treaty organizations for a variety of reasons. The NRO's request that AFRINIC be recognized as an IGO is an eyebrow-raising move to the internet technical community. Alternatively, Mauritius legislature may extraordinarily enact a special law to grant the legal immunity for AFRINIC. If NRO calls for this approach, it is ironical that the call was made to the Foreign Minister and Attorney General, none of whom has the legislative powers. By all means, transformation of AFRINIC into an international organization either through an international treaty or a special Mauritius law deserves strategic thinking and planning, not just for convenience. Further, should AFRINIC obtain the legal immunity of an international organization, such legal status generally shouldn't be applied retrospectively. In an unlikely scenario that Mauritius government did address this issue "as rapidly as possible" as urged by NRO, it is still highly contentious why AFRINIC should be allowed to resort to the newly-gained legal immunity in the preexisting legal proceeding of a contractual dispute. Since non-retrospective is the commonly-recognized legal principle in the world, NRO's request for AFRINIC's international organization status, no matter successful or not, is unlikely to have any effect on the current court case. Although internet technical organizations origined from North America and Europe, they now commit to function as the steward of critical internet resources in the global public interests. They should keep in mind that mutual respect and trust between the internet organizations and sovereign states in the Global South are very important to the stable operation and development of the internet. NRO's Open Letter not only shows little understanding of the real legal issues in the proceeding but the striking sense of superiority in the post-colonist world. If NRO really wants to ensure AFRINIC "to remain accountable and subject to Mauritian laws", it should contribute to resolve the dispute, not to cause collateral damage. (*The author is a professor of law with the Beijing Normal University*.) Source:https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202207/1271059.shtml On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:09 PM Kaj Niemi <kajtzu@basen.net> wrote:
The Dutch government recognizes the following international organizations https://www.government.nl/topics/international-organisations/multilateral-fo...
Almost all countries have a concept of international organization, which is not to be confused with associations and corporate entities, with their own criteria on what they wish to recognize and invite to their country. Usually, these organizations exist in a country because the host government is part of them one way or another (UN, NATO, ICJ, etc.) and the privileges extended of course depend on the treaty between the organization and the host country itself.
Kaj
*From:* members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> *On Behalf Of *Elvis Daniel Velea *Sent:* Tuesday, July 19, 2022 13:31 *To:* Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> *Cc:* Christian Kaufmann <exec-board@ripe.net>; members-discuss@ripe.net *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] NRO letter to Mauritian Government
Hi Sander,
On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 02:33 Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi Elvis,
if you and the Board were so keen on transparency and discussion, you would have brought the letter to the community for feedback prior to signing it.
I have to take it up for the board and Hans Petter here. What you suggest would be unworkable. That would imply that the RIPE NCC couldn’t operate independently anymore and would be micro managed by its members. That is also not ok.
this situation is not something unforeseen. this whole AfriNIC issue has been brewing up for years… this letter could have been discussed before it became an emergency
on the other hand, the letter, the tone, what it suggests… that is a big thing that may ruin reputation worked and fought for decades.
Question for CK and HPH: Is there such a thing as an ‘International Organization’ in the Dutch Law? Has the RIPE NCC requested such status for itself before asking it for another RIR?
Cheers, Sander
cheers,
elvis
PS: I still think I am in a simulation or a dream. This text should not have been written, corrected, approved, signed. Never ever! What right does the NRO have to speak on behalf of the ‘African regional community’ on such harsh terms?
‘It would be very unfortunate for the African regional community if the above situation proves that the designation of Mauritius as the place to locate AFRINIC has been wrong.’
--
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well, if the Board can not get my message directly, I do hope it gets past moderation so they can see it… 🤞 /elvis On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 02:27 Elvis Daniel Velea <elvis@v4escrow.net> wrote:
Dear Hans,
if you and the Board were so keen on transparency and discussion, you would have brought the letter to the community for feedback prior to signing it.
my only .2c
Elvis
On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 02:16 Hans Petter Holen <hph@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Sander, all,
The RIPE NCC is part of the NRO, together with the other four RIRs. This body has a very clear mission to actively contribute to an open, stable and secure Internet. Where joint action or a common voice among the RIRs is needed, the NRO provides the platform that allows that to happen. Through the NRO, we, along with the other RIRs, have been supporting the efforts to maintain a stable Internet presence in Africa. And this letter from the NRO is part of those supporting efforts: https://www.nro.net/nro-letter-to-mauritius-government/
The NRO’s letter was a joint effort by the legal teams of the five RIRs, after AFRINIC requested our support in the matter. We firmly believe it was important to add our name alongside the other RIRs and collectively put our weight behind AFRINIC’s request to the Mauritian government.
I understand that not everyone will agree with this approach. I and my fellow NRO EC members are committed, however, to being as transparent as possible about any such communications to governments and welcome any discussions in our communities. This is how it should be. I believe you are aware that the RIPE NCC and all the RIRs regularly deal with governments when they believe it is necessary to protect the Internet number registry system. Indeed, we regularly communicate with the Dutch government in relation to sanctions, and we have published much of our correspondence with other governments, in line with our commitment to be transparent in these matters. If, as the RIPE NCC, we felt that such interactions with governments could be helped by adding the weight of the NRO, I hope the other RIRs would consider lending their voice to such matters.
Finally, the RIR system is bigger than any of its individual RIRs, so I will reiterate what the NRO stated in its recent message asking the AFRINIC community to come together to solve issues with its RIR: “The regional activities and policy process of an RIR are solely in the hands of that community, but the health of those processes is of paramount importance to the global Internet community.” https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/
This is why the NRO was willing to support AFRINIC in its requests to the Mauritian government - while it is up to each RIR community to address issues with their own RIR, it is up to all RIRs to address issues that can impact the overall system. To not do so would constitute inadequate governance on the part of the RIRs. I understand that you do not agree with the approach taken here, but I hope you will understand why the RIPE NCC and its Board feels it is important that we stand together on this matter.
Regards,
Hans Petter Holen Christian Kaufmann Managing Director Chairman RIPE NCC RIPE NCC Executive Board
On 13 Jul 2022, at 11:57, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi,
I just read the message from the NRO (co-signed by Hans Petter Holen on behalf of the RIPE NCC) to the Mauritian Government: https://www.nro.net/nro-letter-to-mauritius-government/ and I must say I was shocked.
The letter is about the lawsuits of Cloud Innovation Ltd (Lu Heng) against AFRINIC. The NRO is urging the government to recognise AFRINIC as an international organisation "that if granted, it might lead to more appropriate outcomes”. So basically the NRO is urging the Mauritian government’s executive branch to intervene in its judicial branch. Asking a government is to violate their separation of powers is NOT OK™.
Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t like Lu Heng and the way he does business, but not all his lawsuits are without merit, so this is something for the Mauritian court to decide. The NRO pushing the government to intervene goes against the basis of the democratic system.
The letter even does more than urging. It basically threatens/insults Mauritius:
""" To successfully operate a continental wide entity such as AFRINIC, the African Internet community deliberately chose to locate its headquarters in Mauritius in order to obtain the benefit of a stable and consistent legal system. [...] It would be very unfortunate for the African regional community if the above situation proves that the designation of Mauritius as the place to locate AFRINIC has been wrong. """
This letter has raised some eyebrows around the world (and as I understand it in Brussels) to say the least. I would like a response from the RIPE NCC and its board on how they have dared to write such a letter.
Sincerely, Sander Steffann
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Hi, This thread on AfriNIC got me curious once again of this line of business. It seems the whole thing started when someone sued them and then got an injunction in a civil lawsuit. It also seems that AfriNIC has in the past had some issues with corporate governance... There have been allegations of sexual harassment, workplace harassment, the previous auditor (PwC) resigned, the co-founder fired, etc. the list is rather long even going back only a few years. I think that is what most people need to know but in case you are curious just google AfriNIC and you'll find a lot of material on mailing lists, news outlets, etc. on these and some other subjects. There are currently five regional internet registries, RIRs, that handle IP addressing and quite a lot of other things in their organizations. For everyone's convenience I've listed them here below with their legal name, domicile, and entity type. AfriNIC, or AFRICAN NETWORK INFORMATION CENTRE (AfriNIC) LTD by its full name, seems to be a Mauritius private domestic company, limited by guarantee. [1] RIPE NCC, or RESEAUX IP EUROPEENS NETWORK COORDINATION CENTRE (RIPE NCC) , seems to be an Association incorporated in The Netherlands. [2] APNIC, or APNIC PTY LTD, seems to be a Proprietary limited company incorporated in Australia with one person as the Global Ultimate Owner (GUO). [3] ARIN, or AMERICAN REGISTRY FOR INTERNET NUMBERS, seems to be incorporated in Commonwealth of Virgina, USA, a non-profit company under IRC 501(c)(6). [4] LACNIC, incorporated as REGISTRO REGIONAL DE DIRECCION IP LATINOAMERICANO Y CARIBE, is a private company [5] but is registered as an accredited international organization with the UY MFA [6] What do all these five organisations have in common? Well, besides getting most of their revenue from their customers (members) for miscellaneous services, currently they do need to follow the laws of the country they're incorporated in. Yes, even LACNIC. I'll come back to the why slightly later in this message. While looking at LACNIC, interestingly, it turned out that they had had to restate their financials for FY2020 due to IFRS for SMEs and fair value treatment (mark to market really) at EOY 2020 to value investments at their amortized cost starting FY2021. Nothing improper, as KPMG noted, as sometimes restatements are technical in nature. [7] AfriNIC, which was the subject of the letter, has had its share of "issues" which have been a bit more serious as was mentioned previously. Anyway, back to the original topic of The Letter. The Mauritus Companies Act of 2001, which both superseded and repealed the Companies Act 1984 as well as the International Companies Act 1994, does not include a construct called "international organisation" that was mentioned in the original letter sent to the Government of Mauritius. Curiously, there is an International Organisations and Conferences (Privileges and Immunities) Act of 1971 which does cover entities such as the United Nations and its agencies, the International Court of Justice, etc. These are organizations that are established based on international treaties ratified by the member nations. Part 4, Section 19 states "The Minister may, by regulations, designate an international organization established under an international agreement to which Mauritius is or intends to become a party to be an organisation to which this Part applies and, for the purposes of section 21, make provision for the inviolability, exemptions, facilities, privileges, immunities and rights of any organisation to which this Part applies." Furthermore in Part 4, Section 21 states "An organisation to which this Part applies, its institutions or organs, and its property, any person who is a member of any of its institutions or organs, any official of the organisation or a delegate or a representative of a State or Government that is a member of the organisation or is performing duties as-signed to him by the organisation and any person, being a spouse of that person or a member of his family dependent on him, shall have and enjoy in-violability, exemptions, facilities, privileges, immunities and rights in the manner, to the extent and subject to the limitations, including the provisions relating to waiver, specified in each case in regulations made under section 19." You wrote that "The NRO's letter was a joint effort by the legal teams of the five RIRs". Could you or someone from the legal team(s) describe: * Whether the "international organization" defined in the Mauritius IOCPI Act of 1971 was what was really meant in the letter that was sent * What international agreement Mauritius is party to or intends to become a party to that would apply to AfriNIC * What were the thought processes within the RIRs, ICANN NRO and their legal teams on why AfriNIC as an organization, AND some of its designated representatives and potentially family, should be extended something that effectively resembles an immunity by the government of the country the company operates in * Your (RIPE's) thinking why the Government of Mauritus should extend something that might contain clauses for the purposes of immunity to some random domestic company (this is what you are really requesting, some level of protection from at least civil lawsuits) * What would be the judicial process for such an international organization, that does not have its own internal judicial body, in any kind of dispute that would normally be handled through a civil or criminal law process of the host country * How would any of this be beneficial to AfriNIC's members (customers) or anyone else for that matter ("to protect ourselves from lawsuits from the people who rent IP addresses elsewhere" is not what I am looking for) As I am entitled to my opinion, I think that The Letter was a terrible, just terrible idea. The obvious end result is that it reduces generally accepted corporate governance policies, reduces oversight and certainly reduces corporate transparency, it reduces the accountability of the organization and its representatives and is certainly not in line with the "we are here for our members, provide services to our community, do come and join us for a beer on Friday to meet new faces and lets make the internet a nicer and more safe place for everyone" perspective. Furthering and implementing less governance, less oversight and less transparency is certainly not in the interest of any customers ("members"). While the role of corporate legal - "the legal teams of the five RIRs" - is to protect the entity and ensure continuity of the organization, I am of the view that entities like the RIRs are there to provide useful services to their members. Thus, the organization and its independent board - which should provide oversight - should take the role and viewpoint of the membership (customers) when making decisions because sometimes how things seem is exactly how they are. If it the RIRs and ICANN NRO want to become international organizations for reasons of convenience, they could just as well be part of ITU. I did a bit of napkin math a few years ago, based on publicly disclosed information, of all the RIRs and that was quite the surprise at least for me. It turned out that together they had roughly 100M EUR top line with 10% profit margin, held 131M EUR in assets of which in 80M EUR cash or equivalents, employed roughly 400 people full-time, and were funded by 62500 customers (members). Well-meaning organizations such as the RIRs also seem to suffer from serious mission creep since the budgets tend to increase year over year. Most of the customers (members), of course, are completely unaware of these things. Looking forward to a very constructive discussion. Kaj [1] MNS CBRIS [2], [3], [4] ORBIS [5] Equifax Uruguay [6] UY MFA [7] LANIC Report to the Board of Directors regarding to the audit of financial statements in US Dollars as of December 31, 2021 -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Hans Petter Holen Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2022 11:54 To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net; board@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] NRO letter to Mauritian Government Dear Sander, all, The RIPE NCC is part of the NRO, together with the other four RIRs. This body has a very clear mission to actively contribute to an open, stable and secure Internet. Where joint action or a common voice among the RIRs is needed, the NRO provides the platform that allows that to happen. Through the NRO, we, along with the other RIRs, have been supporting the efforts to maintain a stable Internet presence in Africa. And this letter from the NRO is part of those supporting efforts: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nro.ne... The NRO's letter was a joint effort by the legal teams of the five RIRs, after AFRINIC requested our support in the matter. We firmly believe it was important to add our name alongside the other RIRs and collectively put our weight behind AFRINIC's request to the Mauritian government. I understand that not everyone will agree with this approach. I and my fellow NRO EC members are committed, however, to being as transparent as possible about any such communications to governments and welcome any discussions in our communities. This is how it should be. I believe you are aware that the RIPE NCC and all the RIRs regularly deal with governments when they believe it is necessary to protect the Internet number registry system. Indeed, we regularly communicate with the Dutch government in relation to sanctions, and we have published much of our correspondence with other governments, in line with our commitment to be transparent in these matters. If, as the RIPE NCC, we felt that such interactions with governments could be helped by adding the weight of the NRO, I hope the other RIRs would consider lending their voice to such matters. Finally, the RIR system is bigger than any of its individual RIRs, so I will reiterate what the NRO stated in its recent message asking the AFRINIC community to come together to solve issues with its RIR: "The regional activities and policy process of an RIR are solely in the hands of that community, but the health of those processes is of paramount importance to the global Internet community." https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nro.ne... This is why the NRO was willing to support AFRINIC in its requests to the Mauritian government - while it is up to each RIR community to address issues with their own RIR, it is up to all RIRs to address issues that can impact the overall system. To not do so would constitute inadequate governance on the part of the RIRs. I understand that you do not agree with the approach taken here, but I hope you will understand why the RIPE NCC and its Board feels it is important that we stand together on this matter. Regards, Hans Petter Holen Christian Kaufmann Managing Director Chairman RIPE NCC RIPE NCC Executive Board
On 13 Jul 2022, at 11:57, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi,
I just read the message from the NRO (co-signed by Hans Petter Holen on behalf of the RIPE NCC) to the Mauritian Government: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nro.ne... and I must say I was shocked.
The letter is about the lawsuits of Cloud Innovation Ltd (Lu Heng) against AFRINIC. The NRO is urging the government to recognise AFRINIC as an international organisation "that if granted, it might lead to more appropriate outcomes". So basically the NRO is urging the Mauritian government's executive branch to intervene in its judicial branch. Asking a government is to violate their separation of powers is NOT OK(tm).
Now don't get me wrong, I don't like Lu Heng and the way he does business, but not all his lawsuits are without merit, so this is something for the Mauritian court to decide. The NRO pushing the government to intervene goes against the basis of the democratic system.
The letter even does more than urging. It basically threatens/insults Mauritius:
""" To successfully operate a continental wide entity such as AFRINIC, the African Internet community deliberately chose to locate its headquarters in Mauritius in order to obtain the benefit of a stable and consistent legal system. [...] It would be very unfortunate for the African regional community if the above situation proves that the designation of Mauritius as the place to locate AFRINIC has been wrong. """
This letter has raised some eyebrows around the world (and as I understand it in Brussels) to say the least. I would like a response from the RIPE NCC and its board on how they have dared to write such a letter.
Sincerely, Sander Steffann
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participants (11)
-
Alex de Joode -
Cynthia Revström -
Dimitri I Sidelnikov -
Elvis Daniel Velea -
Franco Tauceri -
Hank Nussbacher -
Hans Petter Holen -
Heng Lu -
Kaj Niemi -
Randy Bush -
Sander Steffann