I think we can tell for sure this is a reverse Black Friday. Maybe a first in BF history. Sent from my iPhone

On 29 Nov 2019, at 11:24, Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz> wrote:

 I was waiting for such message here, in m-d list!

...

On 29 Nov 2019, at 09:42, José Manuel Giner <jm@ginernet.com> wrote:

Hello,

we're interested to buy (full-transfer) a /22,

If anybody is interested to sell us with a special price, please contact me with the proposal details.

Thanks.

-- José Manuel Giner https://ginernet.com

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50$ per ip and free hugs it's a good BF! Nikolay Gorstkin wrote on 2019-11-29 10:32:

:)) Yeah!! This morning I heard a price of $ 40 / per address :) Anti-BF !

...

29 нояб. 2019 г., в 12:27, Bunea Petru <suport@bunea.eu> написал(а):

I think we can tell for sure this is a reverse Black Friday. Maybe a first in BF history.

Sent from my iPhone

...

On 29 Nov 2019, at 11:24, Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz> wrote:

 I was waiting for such message here, in m-d list!

...

On 29 Nov 2019, at 09:42, José Manuel Giner <jm@ginernet.com> wrote:

Hello,

we're interested to buy (full-transfer) a /22,

If anybody is interested to sell us with a special price, please contact me with the proposal details.

Thanks.

-- José Manuel Giner https://ginernet.com

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Hi So here it becomes the same market, and the same propositions as you start to condemned in discussion "RIPE DB T&C violation by brokers" We also do have a lot of IP addresses and price is not to high. Regards, 29.11.2019 12:05, Hassan Dirsanji пишет:

Hi guys,

An IPv4 block /19 with is a PI allocation available for immediate transfer. Please let me know if you are interested in.

Regards,

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 13:11 Pablo Serrano <info@pabloserrano.net <mailto:info@pabloserrano.net>> wrote:

50$ per ip and free hugs it's a good BF!

Nikolay Gorstkin wrote on 2019-11-29 10:32: > :)) > Yeah!! This morning I heard a price of $ 40 / per address :) > Anti-BF ! > > >> 29 нояб. 2019 г., в 12:27, Bunea Petru <suport@bunea.eu <mailto:suport@bunea.eu>> написал(а): >> >> I think we can tell for sure this is a reverse Black Friday. Maybe a first in BF history. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 11:24, Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I was waiting for such message here, in m-d list! >>> >>> >>>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 09:42, José Manuel Giner <jm@ginernet.com <mailto:jm@ginernet.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> we're interested to buy (full-transfer) a /22, >>>> >>>> If anybody is interested to sell us with a special price, please contact me with the proposal details. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> José Manuel Giner >>>> https://ginernet.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kaa%40net-art.cz >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> members-discuss mailing list >>> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/nikolay.gorstkin%40gm... > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/info%40pabloserrano.n...

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-- С уважением, Ксения Сокол

Are you seriously trying to sell IPv4 space via the members discuss mailing list, which is being used to discuss the underhand tactics of people just like you? I think it's time I pulled out of the mailing list.All I have seen is decent people raise decent points only to be shot down and taken over by Spamy IPv4 brokers. Congratulations once more RIPE for not being able to organise a proverbial drink up in a brewery. /me left -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Kseniya Sokol Sent: 29 November 2019 10:28 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer Hi So here it becomes the same market, and the same propositions as you start to condemned in discussion "RIPE DB T&C violation by brokers" We also do have a lot of IP addresses and price is not to high. Regards, 29.11.2019 12:05, Hassan Dirsanji пишет:

Hi guys,

An IPv4 block /19 with is a PI allocation available for immediate transfer. Please let me know if you are interested in.

Regards,

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 13:11 Pablo Serrano <info@pabloserrano.net <mailto:info@pabloserrano.net>> wrote:

50$ per ip and free hugs it's a good BF!

Nikolay Gorstkin wrote on 2019-11-29 10:32: > :)) > Yeah!! This morning I heard a price of $ 40 / per address :) > Anti-BF ! > > >> 29 нояб. 2019 г., в 12:27, Bunea Petru <suport@bunea.eu <mailto:suport@bunea.eu>> написал(а): >> >> I think we can tell for sure this is a reverse Black Friday. Maybe a first in BF history. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 11:24, Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I was waiting for such message here, in m-d list! >>> >>> >>>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 09:42, José Manuel Giner <jm@ginernet.com <mailto:jm@ginernet.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> we're interested to buy (full-transfer) a /22, >>>> >>>> If anybody is interested to sell us with a special price, please contact me with the proposal details. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> José Manuel Giner >>>> https://ginernet.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kaa%40net-art.cz >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> members-discuss mailing list >>> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/nikolay.gorstkin%40gm... > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe:

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In my opinion, the IP ranges that are on IP transfers should be taken back by RIPE and given to LIRs in need.

+1 Marcus Pamelia

I actually disagree with you Sebastian. The transfer between LIR's from different owners should be completely forbidden. The only case i see that RIPE should allow the transfer will be for enterprises only, and only when the enterprise is being acquired by another enterprise. If the transfer between LIR's is forbidden, it will insure: - There won't be a savage creation of new LIRs with the only intent to transfer/acquire IPs. - It will reduce the production of profit by IPv4 selling to a very very minimum. - LIR's that won't use the IPs, won't have any other choice to keep them or to give them back. But RPKI validation can be set to prevent LIRs to keep unused IPs for a long time. Important Note: RIPE is a association, not a enterprise. And again, THE IPs DON'T BELONG TO LIRs, THEY BELONG TO RIPE! This subject is also being touched because of the IPv4 run-out. Everyone had enough time to deploy IPv6, why didn't they had? Is it more profitable to purchase IPv4 than deploy IPv6? You said that developpers aren't thinking on IPv6 yet. OFC they don't! If providers push the IPv6, and start decomissioning the IPv4, Devs won't have other choice than think and update their softwares to support IPv6. A 2019-11-29 14:07, Sebastian Wiesinger escreveu: We had this discussion many years ago. LIRs were "transferring" IP ranges and the RIPE NCC had no way of knowing who was actually using them. The "official" way to do it was implemented so that the database was accurate. If people want to pay money for the transfer that is their decision. They will do it anyway. I see no benefit in doing the same discussion all over again just to have IPv4 space run out again a few weeks later. Anyway, this would be something for the address policy WG. Regards Sebastian

Agree On 29/11/2019 13:28, Marcus Pamelia wrote:

...

 In my opinion, the IP ranges that are on IP transfers should be taken back by RIPE and given to LIRs in need.

+1

Marcus Pamelia

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-- José Manuel Giner https://ginernet.com

Hi “In my opinion, the IP ranges that are on IP transfers should be taken back by RIPE and given to LIRs in need” I agree. It will stop developing bussines models based on buy/sell IPv4. It should also be in line with RIPE policy, I guess. Regards Vladimir From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of noc Sent: Friday, 29 November , 2019 12:35 PM To: Stuart Willet; Kseniya Sokol; members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer It's been a while that I am reading the messages and not answering. But in my opinion, this deserves to be answered. Almost all brokers/operators here try to sell something that they don't own. You guys should put something on your heads: the ips don't belong to you. They are NOT yours! The IPs belong to RIPE and RIPE assign you a range for you to use. The RIPE transfer was never meant to be used to make profit. It was created to transfer ips between LIRs that need IPs and LIRs that don't need IPs. I have seen a lot of "we sell ips from RIPE, ARIN, etc...". You don't sell them. You can't sell something that don't belong to you. Don't you? This topic seriously needs to be handled by RIPE. In my opinion, the IP ranges that are on IP transfers should be taken back by RIPE and given to LIRs in need. Regards Enviado a partir do meu smartphone Samsung Galaxy. -------- Mensagem original -------- De : Stuart Willet <stu@safehosts.co.uk> Data: 29/11/19 12:05 (GMT+01:00) Para: Kseniya Sokol <ksyu@netassist.ua>, members-discuss@ripe.net Assunto: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer Are you seriously trying to sell IPv4 space via the members discuss mailing list, which is being used to discuss the underhand tactics of people just like you? I think it's time I pulled out of the mailing list.All I have seen is decent people raise decent points only to be shot down and taken over by Spamy IPv4 brokers. Congratulations once more RIPE for not being able to organise a proverbial drink up in a brewery. /me left -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Kseniya Sokol Sent: 29 November 2019 10:28 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer Hi So here it becomes the same market, and the same propositions as you start to condemned in discussion "RIPE DB T&C violation by brokers" We also do have a lot of IP addresses and price is not to high. Regards, 29.11.2019 12:05, Hassan Dirsanji пишет:

Hi guys,

An IPv4 block /19 with is a PI allocation available for immediate transfer. Please let me know if you are interested in.

Regards,

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 13:11 Pablo Serrano <info@pabloserrano.net <mailto:info@pabloserrano.net>> wrote:

50$ per ip and free hugs it's a good BF!

Nikolay Gorstkin wrote on 2019-11-29 10:32: > :)) > Yeah!! This morning I heard a price of $ 40 / per address :) > Anti-BF ! > > >> 29 нояб. 2019 г., в 12:27, Bunea Petru <suport@bunea.eu <mailto:suport@bunea.eu>> написал(а): >> >> I think we can tell for sure this is a reverse Black Friday. Maybe a first in BF history. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 11:24, Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I was waiting for such message here, in m-d list! >>> >>> >>>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 09:42, José Manuel Giner <jm@ginernet.com <mailto:jm@ginernet.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> we're interested to buy (full-transfer) a /22, >>>> >>>> If anybody is interested to sell us with a special price, please contact me with the proposal details. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> José Manuel Giner >>>> https://ginernet.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kaa%40net-art.cz >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> members-discuss mailing list >>> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/nikolay.gorstkin%40gm... > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe:

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I believe RIPE NCC can disprove your claim by listing IPv4 resources which were given back by (still existing) LIRs in the past. And yes, I also support forcing takeback of resources by RIPE (i.e. by revoking rPKI certs) if they are sold to a different party. Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Im Auftrag von NOC Gesendet: Freitag, 29. November 2019 13:50 An: members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer Hello, At the past it was the main idea, that if you don`t use IP`s you return them back to RIPE. But, in such case, NOBODY return IP`s back. Everyone thinks "we can use them later" OR "what we will do if we need IP`s later and we already returned them". Especially now, when no IP`s avail anymore. Who will return ? Ofc NOBODY. I think that it`s the MAIN REASON why RIPE permit selling when IPv4 is over. Bc now, at least somehow, organizations, who need IP`s can receive them. It's better than nothing. I DON`T tell that I`am not agree with you. I AGREE with you, bc I also don`t like situation with selling. But I just can understand RIPE`s decision. Think about it. -- С наилучшими пожеланиями :: With best regards, Дмитрий Николаев :: Dmitry Nikolaev On 29.11.2019 14:35, noc wrote: It's been a while that I am reading the messages and not answering. But in my opinion, this deserves to be answered. Almost all brokers/operators here try to sell something that they don't own. You guys should put something on your heads: the ips don't belong to you. They are NOT yours! The IPs belong to RIPE and RIPE assign you a range for you to use. The RIPE transfer was never meant to be used to make profit. It was created to transfer ips between LIRs that need IPs and LIRs that don't need IPs. I have seen a lot of "we sell ips from RIPE, ARIN, etc...". You don't sell them. You can't sell something that don't belong to you. Don't you? This topic seriously needs to be handled by RIPE. In my opinion, the IP ranges that are on IP transfers should be taken back by RIPE and given to LIRs in need. Regards Enviado a partir do meu smartphone Samsung Galaxy. -------- Mensagem original -------- De : Stuart Willet <stu@safehosts.co.uk><mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk> Data: 29/11/19 12:05 (GMT+01:00) Para: Kseniya Sokol <ksyu@netassist.ua><mailto:ksyu@netassist.ua>, members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Assunto: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer Are you seriously trying to sell IPv4 space via the members discuss mailing list, which is being used to discuss the underhand tactics of people just like you? I think it's time I pulled out of the mailing list.All I have seen is decent people raise decent points only to be shot down and taken over by Spamy IPv4 brokers. Congratulations once more RIPE for not being able to organise a proverbial drink up in a brewery. /me left -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Kseniya Sokol Sent: 29 November 2019 10:28 To: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer Hi So here it becomes the same market, and the same propositions as you start to condemned in discussion "RIPE DB T&C violation by brokers" We also do have a lot of IP addresses and price is not to high. Regards, 29.11.2019 12:05, Hassan Dirsanji пишет:

Hi guys,

An IPv4 block /19 with is a PI allocation available for immediate transfer. Please let me know if you are interested in.

Regards,

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 13:11 Pablo Serrano <info@pabloserrano.net<mailto:info@pabloserrano.net> <mailto:info@pabloserrano.net><mailto:info@pabloserrano.net>> wrote:

50$ per ip and free hugs it's a good BF!

Nikolay Gorstkin wrote on 2019-11-29 10:32: > :)) > Yeah!! This morning I heard a price of $ 40 / per address :) > Anti-BF ! > > >> 29 нояб. 2019 г., в 12:27, Bunea Petru <suport@bunea.eu<mailto:suport@bunea.eu> <mailto:suport@bunea.eu><mailto:suport@bunea.eu>> написал(а): >> >> I think we can tell for sure this is a reverse Black Friday. Maybe a first in BF history. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 11:24, Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz<mailto:kaa@net-art.cz> <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz><mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I was waiting for such message here, in m-d list! >>> >>> >>>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 09:42, José Manuel Giner <jm@ginernet.com<mailto:jm@ginernet.com> <mailto:jm@ginernet.com><mailto:jm@ginernet.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> we're interested to buy (full-transfer) a /22, >>>> >>>> If anybody is interested to sell us with a special price, please contact me with the proposal details. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> José Manuel Giner >>>> https://ginernet.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>> members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net><mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kaa%40net-art.cz >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> members-discuss mailing list >>> members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net><mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net><mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/nikolay.gorstkin%40gm... > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net><mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe:

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On 29 Nov 2019, at 14:26, Petru Bunea <suport@bunea.eu> wrote:

Perhaps you could enlighten all of us how a company that will be a startup next year (for example) and needs BGP and IPv4 would be able to work if they are not even able to buy IPs from the grey market? Did you even think before hitting the send button ? Really now ...

There is a term for this: anti-trust legislation. This thread was completely predictable, in one form or another, and I do not think any drastic moderation changes are necessary (yet). Process of mourning/denial/rejection/disbelief etc takes its time. From ::/0 to ::1 , have a good weekend. Sent from my mobile device

...

On 29 Nov 2019, at 14:57, Lutz Donnerhacke <L.Donnerhacke@iks-service.de> wrote:

I believe RIPE NCC can disprove your claim by listing IPv4 resources which were given back by (still existing) LIRs in the past. And yes, I also support forcing takeback of resources by RIPE (i.e. by revoking rPKI certs) if they are sold to a different party.

Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Im Auftrag von NOC Gesendet: Freitag, 29. November 2019 13:50 An: members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer

Hello,

At the past it was the main idea, that if you don`t use IP`s you return them back to RIPE. But, in such case, NOBODY return IP`s back. Everyone thinks "we can use them later" OR "what we will do if we need IP`s later and we already returned them". Especially now, when no IP`s avail anymore. Who will return ? Ofc NOBODY.

I think that it`s the MAIN REASON why RIPE permit selling when IPv4 is over. Bc now, at least somehow, organizations, who need IP`s can receive them. It's better than nothing.

I DON`T tell that I`am not agree with you. I AGREE with you, bc I also don`t like situation with selling. But I just can understand RIPE`s decision.

Think about it.

-- С наилучшими пожеланиями :: With best regards, Дмитрий Николаев :: Dmitry Nikolaev

On 29.11.2019 14:35, noc wrote: It's been a while that I am reading the messages and not answering. But in my opinion, this deserves to be answered.

Almost all brokers/operators here try to sell something that they don't own.

You guys should put something on your heads: the ips don't belong to you. They are NOT yours! The IPs belong to RIPE and RIPE assign you a range for you to use.

The RIPE transfer was never meant to be used to make profit. It was created to transfer ips between LIRs that need IPs and LIRs that don't need IPs.

I have seen a lot of "we sell ips from RIPE, ARIN, etc...". You don't sell them. You can't sell something that don't belong to you. Don't you?

This topic seriously needs to be handled by RIPE. In my opinion, the IP ranges that are on IP transfers should be taken back by RIPE and given to LIRs in need.

Regards

Enviado a partir do meu smartphone Samsung Galaxy.

-------- Mensagem original -------- De : Stuart Willet <stu@safehosts.co.uk> Data: 29/11/19 12:05 (GMT+01:00) Para: Kseniya Sokol <ksyu@netassist.ua>, members-discuss@ripe.net Assunto: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer

Are you seriously trying to sell IPv4 space via the members discuss mailing list, which is being used to discuss the underhand tactics of people just like you?

I think it's time I pulled out of the mailing list.All I have seen is decent people raise decent points only to be shot down and taken over by Spamy IPv4 brokers.

Congratulations once more RIPE for not being able to organise a proverbial drink up in a brewery.

/me left

-----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Kseniya Sokol Sent: 29 November 2019 10:28 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer

Hi So here it becomes the same market, and the same propositions as you start to condemned in discussion "RIPE DB T&C violation by brokers" We also do have a lot of IP addresses and price is not to high.

Regards,

29.11.2019 12:05, Hassan Dirsanji пишет:

...

Hi guys,

An IPv4 block /19 with is a PI allocation available for immediate transfer. Please let me know if you are interested in.

Regards,

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 13:11 Pablo Serrano <info@pabloserrano.net <mailto:info@pabloserrano.net>> wrote:

50$ per ip and free hugs it's a good BF!

Nikolay Gorstkin wrote on 2019-11-29 10:32: > :)) > Yeah!! This morning I heard a price of $ 40 / per address :) > Anti-BF ! > > >> 29 нояб. 2019 г., в 12:27, Bunea Petru <suport@bunea.eu <mailto:suport@bunea.eu>> написал(а): >> >> I think we can tell for sure this is a reverse Black Friday. Maybe a first in BF history. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 11:24, Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I was waiting for such message here, in m-d list! >>> >>> >>>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 09:42, José Manuel Giner <jm@ginernet.com <mailto:jm@ginernet.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> we're interested to buy (full-transfer) a /22, >>>> >>>> If anybody is interested to sell us with a special price, please contact me with the proposal details. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> José Manuel Giner >>>> https://ginernet.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kaa%40net-art.cz >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> members-discuss mailing list >>> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/nikolay.gorstkin%40gm... > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe:

https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/info%40pabloser rano.net

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-- С уважением, Ксения Сокол

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Hi, the problem is that it's currently cheaper and easier to rent IPv4 space from a 3rd party, than to sign up for LIR membership and MAYBE get some space through the waiting list system. Going price for a /24 seems to be around 60 EUR a month, which equates to around 720 EUR a year. The RIPE sign up fee and yearly maintenance is much much higher; a small hosting company that's just starting out might not be able to afford it. I was in this exact spot just over a year ago. Kind Regards, Filip On 11/29/19 15:26, Bernd Naumann wrote:

Petru,

Maybe you start first with reading the updates, ok?

Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 14:49:52 +0200 Subject: [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Member Update October 2019

where you can find the following

...

https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/how-waiting-list-works Who Can Join the Waiting List?

In order to submit an IPv4 request, the following criteria apply:

    You must have completed the process to become a RIPE NCC member (LIR)     The LIR requesting addresses must not have received an IPv4 allocation from the RIPE NCC previously (including via the waiting list)     The allocation must be used to make assignments     The address space must be used on a network with at least one active element in the RIPE NCC service region

...

The LIR requesting addresses must not have received an IPv4 allocation from the RIPE NCC previously (including via the waiting list)

Which clearly applies for NEW "startups", or any other org which has no ASN and IPv4 right now but plans to do so. Yet uncool that a bunch of people do speculation with exhausted/exhausting resources and do not free up space.

I have a hard time following the thoughts of these evangelist of greed.

So at least the process is formalized, but I agree that "we" have to wait and see if that even works out.

Please, stay calm and civilized.

Bernd

On 29.11.19 14:23, Petru Bunea wrote:

...

Perhaps you could enlighten all of us how a company that will be a startup next year (for example) and needs BGP and IPv4 would be able to work if they are not even able to buy IPs from the grey market? Did you even think before hitting the send button ? Really now ...

...

On 29 Nov 2019, at 14:57, Lutz Donnerhacke <L.Donnerhacke@iks-service.de> wrote:

I believe RIPE NCC can disprove your claim by listing IPv4 resources which were given back by (still existing) LIRs in the past. And yes, I also support forcing takeback of resources by RIPE (i.e. by revoking rPKI certs) if they are sold to a different party.

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Well, if you're so picky about words... OK, not "nobody", rephrase to "Very few". What is RIPE ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIPE *Réseaux IP Européens* (*RIPE*, French <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language> for "European IP Networks") is a *forum open to all *parties with an interest in the technical development of the Internet <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet>. The*RIPE community*’s objective is to ensure that the administrative and technical coordination necessary to maintain and develop the Internet continues. So, it`s all of us. And so anyone, who don`t agree or wants to change something goes to RIPE meeting and tell it there.

Can I ask ? Anyone who wrote "+1" and/or "I agree" in previous letters, was on RIPE`s meeting ? I think the answer will be "NO". All I want to say is that there is a reason why RIPE made such a decision. And if it was adopted in this way, then no one suggested a different way. P.S.

We have received a request from 185.141.5.88 for the removal of your email address, "noc@mega-net.ru" from the members-discuss@ripe.net Very funny. Good luck o you 185.141.5.88.

С наилучшими пожеланиями :: With best regards, Дмитрий Николаев :: Dmitry Nikolaev On 29.11.2019 15:57, Lutz Donnerhacke wrote:

I believe RIPE NCC can disprove your claim by listing IPv4 resources which were given back by (still existing) LIRs in the past.

And yes, I also support forcing takeback of resources by RIPE (i.e. by revoking rPKI certs) if they are sold to a different party.

*Von:*members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> *Im Auftrag von *NOC *Gesendet:* Freitag, 29. November 2019 13:50 *An:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Betreff:* Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer

Hello,

At the past it was the main idea, that if you don`t use IP`s you return them back to RIPE. But, in such case, NOBODY return IP`s back. Everyone thinks "we can use them later" OR "what we will do if we need IP`s later and we already returned them". Especially now, when no IP`s avail anymore. Who will return ? Ofc NOBODY.

I think that it`s the MAIN REASON why RIPE permit selling when IPv4 is over. Bc now, at least somehow, organizations, who need IP`s can receive them. It's better than nothing.

I DON`T tell that I`am not agree with you. I AGREE with you, bc I also don`t like situation with selling. But I just can understand RIPE`s decision.

Think about it.

-- С наилучшими пожеланиями :: With best regards, Дмитрий Николаев :: Dmitry Nikolaev

On 29.11.2019 14:35, noc wrote:

It's been a while that I am reading the messages and not answering.

But in my opinion, this deserves to be answered.

Almost all brokers/operators here try to sell something that they don't own.

You guys should put something on your heads: the ips don't belong to you. They are NOT yours!

The IPs belong to RIPE and RIPE assign you a range for you to use.

The RIPE transfer was never meant to be used to make profit. It was created to transfer ips between LIRs that need IPs and LIRs that don't need IPs.

I have seen a lot of "we sell ips from RIPE, ARIN, etc...". You don't sell them. You can't sell something that don't belong to you. Don't you?

This topic seriously needs to be handled by RIPE.

In my opinion, the IP ranges that are on IP transfers should be taken back by RIPE and given to LIRs in need.

Regards

Enviado a partir do meu smartphone Samsung Galaxy.

-------- Mensagem original --------

De : Stuart Willet <stu@safehosts.co.uk> <mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>

Data: 29/11/19 12:05 (GMT+01:00)

Para: Kseniya Sokol <ksyu@netassist.ua> <mailto:ksyu@netassist.ua>, members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>

Assunto: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer

Are you seriously trying to sell IPv4 space via the members discuss mailing list, which is being used to discuss the underhand tactics of people just like you?

I think it's time I pulled out of the mailing list.All I have seen is decent people raise decent points only to be shot down and taken over by Spamy IPv4 brokers.

Congratulations once more RIPE for not being able to organise a proverbial drink up in a brewery.

/me left

-----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Kseniya Sokol Sent: 29 November 2019 10:28 To: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer

Hi So here it becomes the same market, and the same propositions as you start to condemned in discussion "RIPE DB T&C violation by brokers" We also do have a lot of IP addresses and price is not to high.

Regards,

29.11.2019 12:05, Hassan Dirsanji пишет: > Hi guys, > > An IPv4 block /19 with is a PI allocation available for immediate transfer. > Please let me know if you are interested in. > > Regards, > > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 13:11 Pablo Serrano <info@pabloserrano.net <mailto:info@pabloserrano.net> > <mailto:info@pabloserrano.net> <mailto:info@pabloserrano.net>> wrote: > > 50$ per ip and free hugs it's a good BF! > > Nikolay Gorstkin wrote on 2019-11-29 10:32: > > :)) > > Yeah!! This morning I heard a price of $ 40 / per address :) > > Anti-BF ! > > > > > >> 29 нояб. 2019 г., в 12:27, Bunea Petru <suport@bunea.eu <mailto:suport@bunea.eu> > <mailto:suport@bunea.eu> <mailto:suport@bunea.eu>> написал(а): > >> > >> I think we can tell for sure this is a reverse Black Friday. > Maybe a first in BF history. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 11:24, Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz> > <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz> <mailto:kaa@net-art.cz>> wrote: > >>> > >>>  > >>> I was waiting for such message here, in m-d list! > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 09:42, José Manuel Giner <jm@ginernet.com <mailto:jm@ginernet.com> > <mailto:jm@ginernet.com> <mailto:jm@ginernet.com>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hello, > >>>> > >>>> we're interested to buy (full-transfer) a /22, > >>>> > >>>> If anybody is interested to sell us with a special price, > please contact me with the proposal details. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> José Manuel Giner > >>>> https://ginernet.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> members-discuss mailing list > >>>> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > >>>> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kaa%40net-art.cz > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> members-discuss mailing list > >>> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > >>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > >>> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> members-discuss mailing list > >> members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > >> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/nikolay.gorstkin%40gm... > > > > _______________________________________________ > > members-discuss mailing list > > members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/info%40pabloser > rano.net > > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aidinsystem%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ksyu%40netassis > t.ua >

-- С уважением, Ксения Сокол

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Hi! On 2019.11.29. 15:06, ivaylo wrote:

It is enough only google (yourube) to start running only on IPV6 and IPV4 will be totaly abandoned in ONE month :) + all brokers/spekulators will drink cold water with all money they spend buying IPV4 in the past :)

+1 I'm think Google have the power for speeding up IPv4 --> IPv6 migrations. If Google will rank a little bit up the IPv6 accessible webpages in the search engines, almost all of the webpage owners (including the SEO guys) will cry for IPv6 access asap. From my view it's a similar possibility what we got in the https vs http ranking up. What do You think? BR, Janos Angeli RackForest

Today ONLY! CYBER MONDAY! IPv4 /22 PA transfer for EUR 50 for one IP! Not 70, not 59.90! Hurry, while someone else haven't accepted this great offer! --- Your friend in community Alex пн, 2 дек. 2019 г., 21:06 Bruno Cordioli <br1@br1.com>:

Yes Janos, I have the same idea, if google changed their ranking a little bit to prefer ipv6 everything would change.

br1 -- Bruno 'br1' Cordioli www.br1.com br1@br1.com

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:49 PM Angeli Janos <angeli.janos@rackforest.hu> wrote:

...

Hi!

On 2019.11.29. 15:06, ivaylo wrote:

...

It is enough only google (yourube) to start running only on IPV6 and IPV4 will be totaly abandoned in ONE month :) + all brokers/spekulators will drink cold water with all money they spend buying IPV4 in the past :)

+1

I'm think Google have the power for speeding up IPv4 --> IPv6 migrations. If Google will rank a little bit up the IPv6 accessible webpages in the search engines, almost all of the webpage owners (including the SEO guys) will cry for IPv6 access asap. From my view it's a similar possibility what we got in the https vs http ranking up. What do You think?

BR, Janos Angeli RackForest

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Ahoy

I'm think Google have the power for speeding up IPv4 --> IPv6 migrations. If Google will rank a little bit up the IPv6 accessible webpages in the search engines, almost all of the webpage owners (including the SEO guys) will cry for IPv6 access asap. From my view it's a similar possibility what we got in the https vs http ranking up. What do You think?

The idea is very good ! As all google services are fully dual stack already and running perfectly on IPV6, I dont think will be technical unimposible. The only problem is how can we make google do this? Ivaylo Josifov Varteh LTD Varna, Bulgaria On Mon, 2 Dec 2019, Angeli Janos wrote:

Hi!

On 2019.11.29. 15:06, ivaylo wrote:

...

It is enough only google (yourube) to start running only on IPV6 and IPV4 will be totaly abandoned in ONE month :) + all brokers/spekulators will drink cold water with all money they spend buying IPV4 in the past :)

+1

I'm think Google have the power for speeding up IPv4 --> IPv6 migrations. If Google will rank a little bit up the IPv6 accessible webpages in the search engines, almost all of the webpage owners (including the SEO guys) will cry for IPv6 access asap. From my view it's a similar possibility what we got in the https vs http ranking up. What do You think?

BR, Janos Angeli RackForest

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On 03/12/2019 11:29, Brandon Butterworth wrote:

On Tue Dec 03, 2019 at 11:17:04AM +0200, ivaylo wrote:

...

The idea is very good ! As all google services are fully dual stack already and running perfectly on IPV6, I dont think will be technical unimposible.

The only problem is how can we make google do this?

It's been suggested to them many times at over the years (probably started with v6 day) but it's failed to get attention.

May be we've never run into the right people to tell, other than telling any googler you meet maybe it needs to find a way higher up. Publicity, social?

Similar proposal was done for the first time (I think) back in 2010 (by Sander and myself), but what we got back from Google repeatedly over all this years (several times) was more or less excuses why they can't do it... https://go6.si/2010/08/suggestion-for-internet-search-engines-proposed-ipv6-... Maybe if we collectively suggest it again they would look at it again. I heard that they'll take "speed of loading" into account, they already implemented it for http/https scoring, so I really can't see why offering content over IPv6 could not improve the ranking... Cheers, Jan Žorž

Hi! Am 03.12.19 um 13:34 schrieb Daniel Pearson:

It's a novel idea but it won't help much.

Three years ago now Apple required all applications within its store to run on IPv6. Do you know what the solution was for the vast majority of those app developers?

Toss CloudFlare or another CDN in-front of their IPv4 only stack to give it IPv6 without addressing the underlying service or stack.

If Google now ranks based on IPv6, that's all anyone will do, is toss CloudFlare infront of the site.

The content will at least be reachable via IPv6. At the moment we have a chicken and egg problem. The access is not deploying IPv6 as there is no content and the content is not deploying it, as no one will access it via v6. Things could be start rolling and then there should be some incentives to get the access providers to use more IPv6 (cheaper traffic / exclusive IPv6 content). Matthias

On 12/3/19 4:44 AM, Jan Zorz - Go6 wrote:

...

On 03/12/2019 11:29, Brandon Butterworth wrote:

...

On Tue Dec 03, 2019 at 11:17:04AM +0200, ivaylo wrote:

...

The idea is very good ! As all google services are fully dual stack already and running perfectly on IPV6, I dont think will be technical unimposible.

The only problem is how can we make google do this?

It's been suggested to them many times at over the years (probably started with v6 day) but it's failed to get attention.

May be we've never run into the right people to tell, other than telling any googler you meet maybe it needs to find a way higher up. Publicity, social?

Similar proposal was done for the first time (I think) back in 2010 (by Sander and myself), but what we got back from Google repeatedly over all this years (several times) was more or less excuses why they can't do it...

https://go6.si/2010/08/suggestion-for-internet-search-engines-proposed-ipv6-...

Maybe if we collectively suggest it again they would look at it again. I heard that they'll take "speed of loading" into account, they already implemented it for http/https scoring, so I really can't see why offering content over IPv6 could not improve the ranking...

Cheers, Jan Žorž

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The problem is not that they don't care, but that they want to keep the pagerank score exclusively for things that improve the user experience, not to push technical things.

That's a surprising claim. I made some measurements some time ago and IPv6 did improve the SEO rank (at least for second page hits). See slide 11 and following (in German) https://docplayer.org/3183113-Ipv6-und-google-ranking-lutz-donnerhacke-iks-s...

I would like to make technical proposal. Do someone know link on RIPE website for this: All web services provided by RIPE to be available _only_ on IPV6 after 01.06.2020. And All web services provided by RIPE on IPV4 after 01.06.2020 to be stopped. Lets start with with something small from our house. Other services as APIs , mail lists and etc that RIPE provide to be still accessible on IPV4. Ivaylo Josifov Varteh LTD Varna Bulgaria On Fri, 29 Nov 2019, Carlos Fria?as via members-discuss wrote:

About Project Issue : Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer

Sent by SUNIC using Odoo

____________________________________________________________________________

Hi,

On Fri, 29 Nov 2019, NOC wrote:

(...)

...

So, it`s all of us. And so anyone, who don`t agree or wants to change something goes to RIPE m eeting and tell it there.

Can I ask ? Anyone who wrote "+1" and/or "I agree" in previous letters, wa s on RIPE`s meeting ? I think the answer will be "NO". (...)

Going to RIPE meetings is not something absolutely necessary to "change the rules", because the PDP and all related discussions really happen on working group mailing lists.

Please see: https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/policy-development-process-info-pd f (There is a "Want to make or change policies?" box...)

These are the four current policy proposals: https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/current-proposals/current-policy-p roposals

Anyone can issue a new proposal. It just takes some effort.

Regards, Carlos

_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/info%40s unic.com.ua

Why don’t we rename split members-discuss into members-address-market.. and add a sign-up cost of /32, must also add ROA for it.. sorry cant resist. — speaking not on behalf of AS29067 (Dual stack since 2012, five stars of IPv6 RIPEness)

On Nov 29, 2019, at 12:05, Hassan Dirsanji <aidinsystem@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi guys,

An IPv4 block /19 with is a PI allocation available for immediate transfer. Please let me know if you are interested in.

Regards,

...

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 13:11 Pablo Serrano <info@pabloserrano.net> wrote: 50$ per ip and free hugs it's a good BF!

Nikolay Gorstkin wrote on 2019-11-29 10:32:

...

:)) Yeah!! This morning I heard a price of $ 40 / per address :) Anti-BF !

If it was not pity it could be funny. We are in this situation, because RIPE total wrong polices in the years. To sell public resources that no one own and that drive modern life of almost all human being on the planet says we are on total wrong road. I am sure between 25% and 35% from all IPV4 addresses are unused now and maybe half of them are on the market. Of course the prices for IPV4 will go much higher (is there anything changed to stop this ?). Speculators who even do not know what is abbreviature of IP, hijacking public resources with agreement of the organization that have to cover and prevent such scenarios and to guarantee stable work of the system. Obviously RIPE will not change its policies to stop this (as I can see the tries in the past), so what we can do: 1. Do not buy even a single IPV4 address for your bussines. 2. Do not buy IP transit if no IPV6 support, or push upstreams to put such. 3. Fully deploy IPV6 dual stack in your network 2.1 Use IPV4 private addresses + NAT, and spam sites your clients mostly using to make them available and on IPV6. 2.2 If your bussiness is hosting, provide services that need unique IP address on IPV6 only (if you do not have any more available IPV4) 2.3 Push hard all software developers to add IPV6 support in their software if there are no such. You payed for that software right ? Keep in mind IPV6 is the future and you can get them brand new, all IPV4 you can buy now are "second hand" (was used before and may be blacklisted or privately blocked) so if you buy IPV4 you are buying second hand equipment (in unknown condition) on hundred times greater price that it costs as new. Is it a good deal ? Ivaylo Josifov Varteh LTD Varna, Bulgaria On Fri, 29 Nov 2019, Piotr Siwicki - Connected wrote:

Hello,

You made my day.  :-)

But, why not to try - YOLO. :-)

Piotr Siwicki

 

W dniu 2019-11-29 09:42, Jose Manuel Giner napisa?(a):

Hello,

we're interested to buy (full-transfer) a /22,

If anybody is interested to sell us with a special price, please contact me with the proposal details.

Thanks.