- members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [members-discuss] Sign-up fee for additional LIR account
by Brandon Butterworth 24 Jul '16

24 Jul '16

On Sun Jul 24, 2016 at 10:18:19AM +0200, Prager-IT e.U. wrote: > > With membership fee based on number of /24 then members may decide > > to also get one vote per /24. Would they vote for this scheme (do > > they get their N*/24 votes before or after this vote...) > > I don't understand what you are trying to say I'm saying that if fees are proportional to resource then the members with more resource (/24's or whatever the measure) may wish to have a quantity of votes proportional to the resource they pay for > each entity has one vote > even if they have multiple LIR accounts under the same entity. In the current scheme, if you change the scheme that may change too > We are not shifting any costs, we are just asking each member to pay their > fair share for the amount of resources they are using Yes it is, it is shifting the cost to larger members, hugely > 8,23 Euros per year per 256 IPv4 addresses is hardly a business case > breaking amount of money. I referred to the current scheme which is also hardly a business case breaking amount of money. So cost is not a good reason to change it especially when changing it will drive the sort of behaviour that RIPE are trying to prevent > These changes will also bring a very real cost to > super large LIRs that hold a ton of resources and may > finally spark some meaningful IPv6 adoption. It may but the access networks with large amounts of IPv4 are adopting IPv6 already, it takes a long time and it's only been started in the last few years but it's happening in large chunks, like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoqGvZr4Uto The hard bit is content hosters who mostly have enough space and don't have enough IPv4 that charging more for it will be a large incentive brandon

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Re: [members-discuss] Sign-up fee for additional LIR account
by Prager-IT e.U. 24 Jul '16

24 Jul '16

On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Brandon Butterworth <brandon(a)bogons.net> wrote: > On Sun Jul 24, 2016 at 08:27:38AM +0200, Prager-IT e.U. wrote: > > Membership fee after we have switched to a per /24 system: 8,23 Euros per > > /24 per Year > > > > Therefore it is quite clear that we need to change the charging scheme > via > > majority vote to a per /24 system as supported by the numbers above. > > With membership fee based on number of /24 then members may decide > to also get one vote per /24. Would they vote for this scheme (do > they get their N*/24 votes before or after this vote...) > I don't understand what you are trying to say, each entity has one vote even if they have multiple LIR accounts under the same entity. > > The aim is for some smaller members (like us, so we'd win) to shift > the balance of cost to larger members? That sounds fine, however the > fees are hardly huge and if they can't afford them it sounds like > the business case for having a LIR is marginal, they'd be better > off money wise and dfz table size using an upstreams space. > We are not shifting any costs, we are just asking each member to pay their fair share for the amount of resources they are using. I am just calculating in terms of /24s as that is easiest to calculate to base the membership fee of. For example if you hold one /22 you will be charged, 4*8,23 Euros, 32,92 Euros per Year as you hold four /24s in size in total. 8,23 Euros per year per 256 IPv4 addresses is hardly a business case breaking amount of money. These changes will also bring a very real cost to super large LIRs that hold a ton of resources and may finally spark some meaningful IPv6 adoption. > > If the aim is to make it cheap enough they can go crazy taking > extra LIRs to get /22s then don't bother, that scheme was to > moderate demand and there'd likely be other measures introduced > to preserve that > > brandon > I don't understand what you are trying to say.

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Re: [members-discuss] Sign-up fee for additional LIR account
by Prager-IT e.U. 24 Jul '16

24 Jul '16

Dear RIPE NCC members, it seems that nobody has run the numbers yet, so let’s just do that. LIR Count: 13499 Allocated IPv4 Count: 587766784 Allocated IPv4 Count in terms of /24s: 2295964 Collected membership fees based on the membership count: 18.898.600 Euros per year Membership fee after we have switched to a per /24 system: 8,23 Euros per /24 per Year Therefore it is quite clear that we need to change the charging scheme via majority vote to a per /24 system as supported by the numbers above. Kind Regards, Stefan Prager -- Prager-IT e.U. VAT Number: ATU69773505 Austrian Company Register: 438885w Skype: Prager-IT contact(a)prager-it.com +43 680 300 99 80

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Additional LIR accounts
by IP.RO - IPv4 Management SRL 22 Jul '16

22 Jul '16

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dear colleagues, It's the first time that I'm writing on this list... even I'm dealing with RIPE for more then 10 years... I will present you the downside of this "Additional LIR accounts" which seems that everybody didn't think... You have an ISP which have 4x/22 IPv4 DHCP pools for his clients (allocated for more then 2 years)... and decide that it's time to make some extra money.... This ISP signup for 4 additional LIR accounts... and get 4 brand new /22's... Then use then new ones for DHCP, sell his old 4x/22 and guess what... he make some extra money... ( selling old blocks price - RIPE fees > 0 ) What is the ISP have 100x/22's... or even better... if it's not an ISP and it's a spammer .. with 1000x/22s... double win... replace his blocks use them for spam and get extra money selling his old blocks... Maybe I'm wrong... Kind Regards, Cristian Haja IPv4 Management SRL -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJXkYiKAAoJEI4w2mD8vaVONCAP/iRirkS4F01fSQmRPYBG1qQI htNz61i0YgmPQuWWd4mEI2uf5IpP2fS54cWVmOjjDtsbg9NMsgpy180uiYglKNwi n3+Y7/ez6IvQFBXSgI7Gs76VTgieTxqQUzIXwkHKllgdAzVuqG0eo+8O7t8QZ6ZA Ubvl1Dzg6cFiTFawW54Ijj+kyCwVfZiQda30ZhnodsI40m9VzJQ8wnP6shbgTLiY X6egYKIzBoKWnEy+SzApBp+vb/gy45y9NB4gmSJIG1Ba4iZTDeu1mAByj12YNUK+ X73Z8U6C/ROjgsFz3RUiqlHk/3iZRYSRRFzwQAvPOeTBQkTbw38gxorMISDmhvOU fNp8JwR8RIgOJK6cWGAUPAI36cWIsbpiPVtevq8oV5jQApGHGmf7OtiO+i7tXOfg uqbyI9dR7lhJdNiMMjdAoAH/5zwhp2Is+CsT9LMjTPB/w7+SxrqAcUo1+dXOBZaT rlHYu0ZQkz+OGh/tGYBFS2H+3a0S9M/GP4s3pa2ISwkUnf5LLDeEyKGLhjjHV3sL 9jg3L3oNRxDznWifGH5eYnlPmFlVzuM4uktSg4cTCULIDNctBmRHQ1F+kp0nmJtV D3tlSzHE18lI+mi/736DXbule4jC7nGpWX79MuOolouf/tKZnMoshX66BBfCbNk5 lOHofSPxBkesnvGuWQ8z =32Ph -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: [members-discuss] Sign-up fee for additional LIR account
by Morten Westerberg 22 Jul '16

22 Jul '16

I disagree, LIR accounts are LIR accounts and they are separate entities, if you want multiple LIR accounts to hoard IPv4's, it's only fair that you pay per /22 you aquire this way. Sincerely, Morten Westerberg------------------------------------------------Secure Data Center ApsNaverland 22600 GlostrupDenmark T: +45 70 215 101E: mw(a)securedatacenter.dkW: http://www.securedatacenter.dk---------------------------------------------… <div> </div><div> </div><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Sergiu IANCIUC <sergiu.ianciuc(a)itns.md> </div><div>Date: 7/21/16 12:14 (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: Ping IP <pingip.network(a)gmail.com> </div><div>Cc: members-discuss(a)ripe.net </div><div>Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Sign-up fee for additional LIR account </div><div> </div>salut Ping, agree with you, the additional LIR account have to be 50% from the first sign-up Best Regards, - Sergiu IANCIUC SC ITNS.NET SRL MD-2068, Moldova or. Chisinau, str. Miron Costin 3/1 tel.: +373 22 877 877 fax : +373 22 44 11 73 mobile: +373 690 22 111 url: http://www.itns.md Save a tree... Don't print this email unless you have to... Thursday, July 21, 2016, 7:08:02 PM, you wrote: Hello, A recent change has been made in the Billing and Fee Schedule 2016 , regarding the following sentence: "Members are charged a one-time sign-up fee of EUR 2,000 (two thousand euro) for each new LIR account." I'd like to discuss why an existing LIR member has to pay the sign-up fee again? As a new small LIR I'm paying a high price for a /22 IPv4. I think it's disproportionately to charge the sign-up fee again from an existing LIR member who is requesting an additional LIR account. I'd like to suggest to remove the one-time sign-up fee of EUR 2,000 for each additional LIR account. Or at least lower the sign-up fee to an acceptable rate. I'm not talking about the sign-up fee for a new LIR member, but about the sign-up fee for an additional LIR account. Thanks for discussing this subject. Best regards, Abdelouahed Haitoute Ping IP network

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Re: [members-discuss] Additional LIR accounts
by IP.RO - IPv4 Management SRL 22 Jul '16

22 Jul '16

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Stefan, Let's remember that you sent me the request for return half of ipv4 space on 15.10.2015 so you can lower your fees (125 Euro/year) and get half of the IPs for free... so have some decency and tell the true... Or you still want to have an annual renting fee of 30 euro/YEAR for a /24 range ... ?! or free ??? If you do not afford a renting fee of 125 Euro/YEAR for a /24... my bad... I forget that business means that only yours should be profitable... The main idea was in your interest so you do not remain by this RIPE decision without IPs... but have it your way... and lose the objective of this discussion.... If you want to discuss this in personal... just give me a call... RIPE LISTS are not for PERSONAL VENDETA... Cristian On 22.07.2016 08:03, Stefan Lazar wrote: > - hello Cristi, i think u are the last one who can give advice ... i will get advice from you if i will have > 8milion ipv4 and i wwill need to sell - remember u forced all Romanian ipv4 user to return half of ipv4 space, even > we need that blocks and we had dificulty to resolv with our clients > > Stefan ISP and now thx to Cristi LIR > > 2016-07-22 5:44 GMT+03:00 IP.RO <http://IP.RO> - IPv4 Management SRL <office(a)ip.ro <mailto:office@ip.ro>>: > > Dear colleagues, > > It's the first time that I'm writing on this list... even I'm dealing with RIPE for more then 10 years... > > I will present you the downside of this "Additional LIR accounts" which seems that everybody didn't think... > > You have an ISP which have 4x/22 IPv4 DHCP pools for his clients (allocated for more then 2 years)... and decide > that it's time to make some extra money.... > > This ISP signup for 4 additional LIR accounts... and get 4 brand new /22's... > > Then use then new ones for DHCP, sell his old 4x/22 and guess what... he make some extra money... ( selling old > blocks price - RIPE fees > 0 ) > > What is the ISP have 100x/22's... or even better... if it's not an ISP and it's a spammer .. with 1000x/22s... > double win... replace his blocks use them for spam and get extra money selling his old blocks... > > Maybe I'm wrong... > > Kind Regards, Cristian Haja IPv4 Management SRL > > ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR > Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > > -- Servicii & Consultanta IT Str. Culturii, Nr 16 Navodari, Jud Constanta Tel1 : +40 723 306 978 Tel 2 : +40 > 7internet Tel 3 : +40 7navodari > > Tel/Fax : +40 241 762 002 / +40 241 762 000 +40 241 766 666 / +40 241 700 000 Mail : _office(a)sel.ro_ > <mailto:office@sel.ro> http://www.sel.ro <http://www.sel.ro/> - Servicii & Consultanta IT > http://www.07internet.ro - Internet, Telefonie, Televiziune http://www.pcdoctors.ro > <http://www.pcdoctors.ro/> - Magazin produse IT online -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJXkbiZAAoJEI4w2mD8vaVOe+QQAL+JqplSnKGDKolQkk0iYiQd iqlKCbkiT81CVFo/zBsFQtcqnwStto6N4P3VX2FyAPfH4NkayGaTMl8PBQLgsuEY 6qq2dtoSrVK+7MMXp9IJzAguTCtLebSaN1TAYrbRgjyfVWWUjeCyyqxq4AKj0cGc rYU3Att9RfNpYlw31XyZZ6iOYbsmPuCxz1tPMgGrLRCpc8u7lPQ1Qr3GX9za5yEj Tg1/6uj3kY5Da6eMDF+v40DTylki+wRSu0ruQOgAGm/Oy+uSgIRqhRVHcpxkR3Nb HswxAbJF0HBRtI+wHpY/UHT4sShR9OiOFnYSb+z85ZtpzfgkaLn3S+LLarAM16bu bQeSw9pfzUb1bSqcUW+y6H8VknWYFJ7uJmkGXUYwMUfc3X7tJ5Ecapgz6XdvRo6y 9Tm1+6arjbgu1a2vvVBp1JwGJHNNTTaLkhoPC+GhUh0E1VG1GNJVhe8mdWrZBV1n gNqw8IGMENOnOpUeli4PwvWeNGUjcYhvlXbPA2Jm/+O5UaIaUBBBGyK0ElYYVu9x ajuXouLtE/AdCsvDIquA/2baIkaMrk1gOXe8upi3NctGLEZ7pFkChbJDI9C+o8Cy bdrPn+KvPZOh8CXqsOvZWCRfXNbVV3Xm1ywZwsCvC752rpIq9UEmNV1nepKEBmFU ltYmuwdo6giwGA3rF1k3 =eFlx -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: [members-discuss] Bots subscribed to the list
by Brandon Butterworth 30 May '16

30 May '16

On Sun May 29, 2016 at 08:34:04AM +0300, Sergiu IANCIUC wrote: > <p>hi,</p> > <p><br></p> > <p>let's imagine that each member will answer - i agree... </p> > <p><br></p> > <p>I also propose to unsubscribe guys that with answer as "yes, I agree" > or "Agree fully" or something like this. ;)</p> > <p><br></p> and those sending html only email brandon

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Bots subscribed to the list
by Dominik Nowacki 29 May '16

29 May '16

Hi, Can I please ask RIPE staff to look at the list again and get all the bots to be unsubscribed ? It's very disruptive to get a significant number of ticket desks, autoresponders, or mailer daemon emails every time you send anything to the discussion list... Kind Regards, Dom uk.clouvider

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IETF funding
by Sander Steffann 28 May '16

28 May '16

Hi, As requested by Nigel Titley at the NCC Services working group session, I would like to express my support for the RIPE NCC to participate in the long-term funding to the IETF. For those who didn't attend the session, here are the slides: https://ripe72.ripe.net/presentations/107-RIPE-Presentation-Deck-for-Svcs-W… And the video recording: https://ripe72.ripe.net/archives/video/179 Cheers, Sander

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IPV4 Addresses
by David Benwell 27 May '16

27 May '16

Hi, With IPv4 running out and LIRs only being allowed final /22 in my view makes it unfair to new members who may need additional addresses. With some of the other LIRs having for example /19 unused makes it unfair for them to advertise their unused address space on the transfer service and want to charge up words of £8 per IP Address. Given the fact the IP Addresses is a public resource, I fail to see how it should be allowed for LIRs to make a profit out of unused space. There should be a policy and if the address space is not used / required, it must be handed back to the public pool of resources so can then be allocated to other LIRS as part of their annual membership. I even recall the Government sitting on "I believe" a /8 and then tried to sell this off to raise money. Again this should not be allowed. LIRS should NOT be able to make profit for selling a public resource. Regards Dave [http://www.3cxacademy.com/mod/certificate/pix/seals/3CX-Certified-Engineer.…] Dave Benwell - 3CX Certified Professional [http://www.3cx-phone-system.co.uk/email-sig/Signature.png] [http://www.3cx-phone-system.co.uk/email-sig/image001.png] support(a)it-communicationsltd.co.uk<mailto:support@it-communicationsltd.co.uk> [http://www.3cx-phone-system.co.uk/email-sig/image003.png] www.it-communicationsltd.co.uk<http://www.it-communicationsltd.co.uk> [http://www.3cx-phone-system.co.uk/email-sig/image005.png] @IT Communications<https://twitter.com/ITCommsltd> [http://www.3cx-phone-system.co.uk/email-sig/image007.png] Facebook<http://www.facebook.com/pages/IT-Communications-LTD-3cx-support/17304530937…> Telephone: 01702 66 88 36 | Fax: 01702 66 88 37 Office: I.T Communications Limited, 20-24 High Street, Rayleigh, Essex, SS6 7EF [cid:image006.gif@01CE1059.1B386EA0] This email, including any attachment, is private and confidential. It should not be read, copied, disclosed or otherwise used by any person other than the intended recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately. I.T Communications Limited is a company registered in England, registered number 7418692. Registered office: I.T Communications Limited, Seedbed Business Centre, Vanguard Way, Shoeburyness, Essex, SS3 9QY

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