- members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

Charging scheme 2025 proposal (simple, bounded, conservative)
by James A. T. Rice - Jump Networks 19 Apr '24

19 Apr '24

Hi Folks, A very simple charging scheme proposal - Base fee per LIR: €950 Per /24 IPv4 fee, up to 1750 /24s: €20 each Per /24 IPv4 fee, above 1750 /24s: €0 each Independent resources charged as currently - €50 each. This * achieves simplicity (one knows how much each extra /24 of space costs, so can easily know their LIR fee - there's no logarithm component) * bounds the maximum fee at €35950, so even the largest RIPE member won't be paying any more than with any other RIR * should be generally favourable with the vast majority of members - 18,000 out of 20,500 members would be better off under this scheme * leads to the same income for the RIPE NCC as their existing proposed options It would be good to see it on the options presented to members this year. Thanks James Rice Jump Networks Ltd

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New RIPE Labs Article - Building a stable future for the RIPE NCC
by Remco van Mook 19 Apr '24

19 Apr '24

Dear colleagues, I’d like to draw your attention to an article that was just published on RIPE Labs, about building a stable future for the RIPE NCC. As it touches on some very foundational aspects all across the various working groups and NCC membership, I thought it important to share, and I would very much like to ask everyone for their input and ideas. In order to not spread the discussion too much across the various mailing lists, I suggest that we use the general RIPE list (which I’ve put into the reply-to field of this email. I’m currently in the process of organising a BOF during RIPE 88 on this topic as well and am looking forward to a constructive discussion! Kind regards, Remco van Mook RIPE NCC Executive Board

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Re: [members-discuss] [ripe-list] New RIPE Labs Article - Building a stable future for the RIPE NCC
by Sergey Myasoedov 18 Apr '24

18 Apr '24

Hi, The topic is definitely for members-discuss, not for ripe-list, so I'll continue in m-d. > 1) RIPE need to make some reserve funds for compensate some looses due sanctions, banking troubles and etc... for example 5% of total budget. That's far away from the reality. As far as I remember, the target was about 100% of the budget, so the association could survive 1 to 2 years without any funding. The current status of the reserves is 80%+ of the budget. > 2) Change Charging Scheme from LIR based to Resource based and spare RIPE budget spending in equal parts. Big LIRs with large amount of resouces - will be pay more (in equal share), LIRs with small amount of resources - will be pay less (in equal share). Paying more than others usually means having more rights. Should the top payers benefit more from their membership? -- Best, Sergey

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Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic)
by sdy＠a-n-t.ru 17 Apr '24

17 Apr '24

Yes! And it is why is need to reform budget of NCC too. It is need to divide it by 2 path to. So not in 2025, but in 2026 it will be good try to do. > If you look at the current pricing model from RIPE's angle, everyone is equal in terms of making the budget. In a sense this diversification is good as each member is 1/21570th of the whole. In the big picture it does not really matter if someone is slightly late or cannot pay or it turns out that they're a high risk and aren't invoiced. > > With models where some would be paying a larger (or very large) share of the budget, revenue assurance (collections) is much more important. > > Also, not everyone needs to be happy with the fee structure. It is enough that the majority is. ?? > > > > Kaj > ________________________________ > From: Evgeniy Brodskiy <Evgeniy.Brodskiy(a)kyivstar.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 14:56 > To: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu(a)basen.net> > Cc: Kurt Jaeger <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net>; members-discuss(a)ripe.net <members-discuss(a)ripe.net>; sdy(a)a-n-t.ru <sdy(a)a-n-t.ru> > Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic) > > You don't often get email from evgeniy.brodskiy(a)kyivstar.net. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> > > Confidential/Конфіденційно > > > Thank you. > > > > I agree with you, today there is practically no sense in shifting between RIRs. > > But if someone says you'll pay 10 times (or even bigger) what you pay today because the current fee is "simply unfair", inter RIRs transfer might be an option to think. > > In that case everything will be fair. Small LIR will stay in RIPE with fair, per single IP, share of spends and big LIRs will receive registry services from other RIRs. > > > > At least I don't see any other options to make everybody happy with fees. > > > > From: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu(a)basen.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 2:27 PM > To: sdy(a)a-n-t.ru; Evgeniy Brodskiy <Evgeniy.Brodskiy(a)kyivstar.net> Cc: Kurt Jaeger <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net>; members-discuss(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic) > > > > It is possible to transfer resources between the RIRs with a bunch of conditions attached and some caveats. For example: > > > > 1. both RIRs must approve the intended transfer, > > 1. there needs to be some kind of justification why it would need to > occur, > > 1. at least in LACNIC's case one would need to re-justify the incoming > assignment using their rules, > > 1. if addresses were considered legacy at RIPE, they would convert to > non-legacy when being registered with LACNIC, > > 1. you'd end up paying both sides of the transaction assuming you're > controlling two LIRs under separate RIRs. > > > > So, it doesn't really make sense to try to "RIR shop" on price. Transfers might make sense if you want to consolidate assets for M&A purposes somewhere than where they originated. > > > > Realistically, if someone were to return IPv4 addresses to a RIR, the returned addresses would in practice instantly be gone as there are waiting lists for these. > > > > > > > > Kaj > > > > ________________________________ > > From: members-discuss > <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Evgeniy Brodskiy via members-discuss > <members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 13:28 > To: sdy(a)a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru> <sdy(a)a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru>> Cc: Kurt Jaeger > <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>>; members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > <members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic) > > > > Confidential/Конфіденційно > > Maybe, but to be sure we all understand consequences for this "easy" solution to "complicated problem" I have two questions: > - do LIRs have ability to transfer IPv4 networks between RIRs (because > for the land example, transfer is not an option) ?? > - is this transfer more complicated and costly than have fair share of > RIPE spends ? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss > <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> On Behalf Of sdy(a)a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 12:59 PM > To: Evgeniy Brodskiy > <Evgeniy.Brodskiy(a)kyivstar.net<mailto:Evgeniy.Brodskiy@kyivstar.net>> Cc: Kurt Jaeger > <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>>; members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic) > > Sorry, but my 5 cents... > > Not only "result in some IPv4 addresses being transferred back to RIPE". Lets do not forget, It will decrease payment for LIR who could not take more IPv4 an AS. > So, This will make the relationship between the NCC participants more honest too. > >> Confidential/Конфіденційно >> >> Hello Kurtis! >> >> I think there is one more circle. Some members simply want to increase the cost of ownership IPv4 address space. >> Perhaps, from their point of view, this will result in some IPv4 addresses being transferred back to RIPE. >> >> >> P.S. I believe it is not, a lot of reasons why. >> >> From: members-discuss >> <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> On Behalf Of >> Kurtis Lindqvist >> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 11:56 AM >> To: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu(a)basen.net<mailto:kajtzu@basen.net>>; Kurt Jaeger <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>> Cc: members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal >> (logarithmic) >> >> You don't often get email from kurtis(a)linx.net<mailto:kurtis@linx.net>. Learn why this is >> important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> >> >> Hi Kaj! >> >> Isn’t this really at the heart of the problem. In a Venn diagram there are (at least) three circles here, the members with an opinion the mailinglist who want to crystalise the core services and keep RIPE NCC costs lower and see greater efficiency gains, there is the circle of members who respond to the membership survey and are happy and want to keep all services as they are and then there is a circle of the members who actually vote (and possibly manage the payments). I am not convinced there is a great overlap of these circles and so we end up in a situation with very little guidance. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> - kurtis - >> -- >> Kurt Erik Lindqvist, CEO >> T: +44 (0) 20 7645 3528 | >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.l%2F&d…<http://www.l/> inx.net%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e1 0c441352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C63 8489448786280462%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV 2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QEXMYddLt GMe%2B5YroI0pEgvAe3%2BTJBPajNC65st8t6o%3D&reserved=0<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur01.saf… > <https://eur01.saf/>> > elinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linx.net%2F&data=0 >> 5%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec 54984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786299804% 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik 1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vtv4hBXwlC5CcMN8aZ1Dfg3aCU ErpIb1fOJhmWNmekk%3D&reserved=0> >> [b8dd7c7e-5b7a-4bb3-bf55-4265639a41be]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur01.saf… > <https://eur01.safelinks.protect/>> > ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linx.net%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvge >> niy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9b d573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786313582%7CUnknown%7CT WFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI 6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VTF2xqEsQquRE5dLjkUMPvI4UP8lVMjkC9k7dUY y2BM%3D&reserved=0> >> London Internet Exchange Ltd (LINX) >> C/O WeWork, 2 Minister Court, London, EC3R 7BB, United Kingdom >> Registered in England number 3137929 >> [09f5285b-9bf5-4663-a1d5-f335264499f8]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur01.saf… > <https://eur01.safelinks.protect/>> > ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Flinx_network&data=05% >> 7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec54 984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786324932%7C Unknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1h aWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6iKup8bVtB4LtGLG0TxkuCHpewpX yef3oKar3140azA%3D&reserved=0>[0ab2af08-4510-4094-a068-c92129623c5c]<h ttps://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.l inkedin.com%2Fcompany%2Flinx&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivsta r.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a 30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786333281%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4 wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C% 7C&sdata=3DvsDweiQlhS0ZOkvrLzIcLlxahiESXocYqlrQrcssQ%3D&reserved=0>[34 761a22-8ab1-4259-b5a4-c45509cfc94a]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur01.saf… > <https://eur01.safelinks.protection/>> > .outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FLondonInternetExcha >> nge%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c44 1352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489 448786341755%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luM zIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nrAUIZRXumi8m ycHPygzTeP15GicspQVnrotFfWm5WU%3D&reserved=0>[591060a6-addb-47a4-a833- 1c93e4b644f4]<http://http/ > <http://http/%0b>> > s%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fuser%2FLINXnetwork&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy. >> Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd573 bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786350626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpb GZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0 %3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xEsJW7jwlv9%2FPy9B8fWqM8wXWNGfmxxAqXzViM8rD TY%3D&reserved=0> >> >> From: members-discuss >> <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe. > <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.%0b>> net>> on behalf of Kaj Niemi >> <kajtzu(a)basen.net<mailto:kajtzu@basen.net<mailto:kajtzu@basen.net%3cmailto:kajtzu@basen.net>>> Date: Tuesday, 16 April 2024 at 19:49 >> To: Kurt Jaeger >> <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>>> Cc: >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> <members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal >> (logarithmic) >> Hi, >> >> >> Good points. >> >> On the topic of AFRINIC, I would slightly disagree. Membership numbers have been increasing from about 1200 in 2018-ish, when they restated revenue, at around 5.3M USD to the 6M-ish USD I mentioned in my previous email. I haven't actively been following the story there but assumed the legal troubles started FY2021-ish.. since revenue was restated, there was probably something else going on earlier. They spent about 140k on legal in 2022 although only non-audited numbers exist. I'm reading it as if the legal issues themselves did not affect revenue one way or another. >> >> As for RIPE, well, I'm advocating on spending less and crystallizing the value prop because right now it's all over the place. >> >> >> 1. LIRs [must] pay because they need the registry services >> 2. In exchange they get a ton of services that many do not use at all 3. All services and functions are necessary because [list with many >> reasons] >> 4. "We need to increase the fees because of 2 and 3" >> 5. Goto 1 >> >> That being said, the gym analogy someone replied with a few days ago is quite apt. Most people there, too, pay but do not use. >> >> >> >> Kaj >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Kurt Jaeger >> <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2024 8:06 PM >> To: Kaj Niemi >> <kajtzu(a)basen.net<mailto:kajtzu@basen.net<mailto:kajtzu@basen.net%3cmailto:kajtzu@basen.net>>> Cc: >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> <members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal >> (logarithmic) >> >> [You don't often get email from >> members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>>. Learn why this is important at >> https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ] >> >> Hi! >> >> Thanks for writing up those stats. >> >>> Let's do some napkin math and comps with the other RIRs. [...] >>> >>> RIPE, revenue 38M EUR (40M USD), members 20k = 2 k/member ARIN, revenue 25M USD, members 25k = 1 k/member APNIC, revenue 33M AUD (21M USD), members 10k = 2 k/member LACNIC, revenue 10M USD, members 12k = 0.8 k/member AFRINIC, revenue 6M USD, members 2k = 3 k/member >> [...] >> >>> Now, in my opinion, there are a few surprises. >>> ARIN, located in a very expensive country, is quite efficient per member. >> >> I think one has to analyse if ARIN and RIPE do the same when it comes to reach-out, research etc. I'm not sure that ARIN is as active as RIPE is. Also: The language barrier in the service area is much more difficult to traverse than in the ARIN service area. And the RIPE has to cope with a very difficult legal and political landscape compared to ARIN. >> >>> On the other hand, AFRINIC seems to be rather inefficient. >> >> I would not hold that against AFRINIC, given their legal and political landscape. >> >> -- >> MfG/Best regards, Kurt Jaeger Now what ? Dr.-Ing. Nepustil & Co. GmbH fon +49 7123 93006-0 >> pi(a)nepustil.net<mailto:pi@nepustil.net> >> Rathausstr. 3 mob +49 171 3101372 >> 72658 Bempflingen >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >> https://list/ >> s.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss&data=05%7C02%7CEvgen iy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd 573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786359237%7CUnknown%7CTW FpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6 Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=c1Ct1rc%2FVEmU%2FQQW9uF0M1pxl%2Fb%2Fu6vt ySSlccitatw%3D&reserved=0 >> Unsubscribe: >> https://list/ >> s.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Fsdy%2540a-n-t.ru&da ta=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808d c5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786371 577%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTi I6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=N6K4cM8VFSdKljxWbyRHok brVc3o%2FuTxvapypwsGJ48%3D&reserved=0 >> > > > ----------------------------- > С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий > ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" > +7(498)785-8-000 раб. > +7(495)940-92-11 доп. > +7(925)518-10-69 сот. > > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.rip…<https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss> Unsubscribe: > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.rip…<https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/registry%40kyivstar.…> _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.rip…<https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss> Unsubscribe: > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.rip…<https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kajtzu%40basen.net> > ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот. ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by Daniel Pearson 17 Apr '24

17 Apr '24

Hello, Why do we not have an option that refuses any rate increases, and forces RIPE to reduce it's budget? Option D - No change to rates, RIPE reduces budget according to fewer number of LIR! The Board MUST make tough decisions. If RIPE is serving fewer LIR then the board must adjust RIPE to be a proper size. Daniel~ On 4/10/24 4:18 AM, Simon-Jan Haytink wrote: > > Dear RIPE NCC members, > > > We can now share three draft charging scheme models for 2025 that the > Executive Board approved with the following resolution at its meeting > on 25 March 2024: > > > The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the submission of the RIPE NCC > Charging Scheme 2025 options to the upcoming RIPE NCC General Meeting > for members to vote on. > > - Option A - Charging Scheme as is with 22.58% price increase for > the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,900) and a 0% price > increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 50) > > - Option B - Charging Scheme as is with 20.97% price increase for > the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,875) and a 50% price > increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) > > - Option C - Charging Scheme as is with 16.13% price increase for > the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price > increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR > 75) and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment > > > *Resources falling under this charge are IPv4 and IPv6 PI assignments; > Anycast assignments; IPv4 and IPv6 IXP assignments; and Legacy IPv4 > resource registrations through a sponsoring LIR. > > > The full draft charging scheme models are available from the GM > Documentation > page:https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/document… > <https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/documentation…> > > > Although the proposed models are relatively simple, we provide a > calculator where you can see exactly what you would pay under each of > the proposed models: > > https://www.ripe.net/documents/3757/CS2025_Member_Calculator.xlsx > <https://www.ripe.net/documents/3757/CS2025_Member_Calculator.xlsx> > > > The main considerations for the Executive Board in proposing these > three models are: > > 1. The consolidation of LIR accounts, which means the burden to > generate sufficient income must be met by fewer accounts > > 2. Increased costs due to inflation that were previously catered for > by the large number of LIR accounts > > 3. Following the discussions last year and again this year, there > appears to be no clear consensus among members on how a category-based > model would work and the Board does not wish to put another category > model forward at the upcoming GM that will be rejected by the members. > Rather, the Board will propose a simple model that guarantees adequate > funding for 2025 and 2026 - under this proposal, we expect there would > be no need for a fee increase for 2026. The Board will work with the > RIPE NCC on a more in-depth consultation with the members aimed at > arriving at a sustainable solution for 2027 and beyond, possibly > involving a new charging scheme task force. > > > All three proposed models are designed to arrive at the same income of > EUR 41.1 million for the RIPE NCC in 2025. This will cover all current > services and activities, a 5% staff cost increase, a 2% inflation > increase on all non-staff costs, and EUR 1 million for additional work > relating to registry complexity and security projects aimed at > ensuring the resilience of the Registry and the RIPE NCC more broadly. > Any such additional work would be discussed with the membership during > Activity Plan and Budget consultations and then need to be approved by > the Board. This will also allow some leeway should more LIR accounts > close than we expect. > > > It’s important to note that the RIPE NCC aims for an income budget > that will provide a surplus, and this means that should we meet our > budgetary targets, a surplus can be returned to members in 2026 should > they so wish. > > > While the RIPE NCC continues to carry out cost-cutting efforts across > the organisation, drastically reducing the budget at this time is not > advisable due to the work that needs to be carried out, especially in > relation to maintaining high-quality registry services and securing > the registry and RIPE NCC systems. Cutting services or activities is > not something the Board is planning to do, and such actions would take > time and need full consultation with the membership. An overview of > the activities and services that the membership fee covers is provided > below this email. > > > I also urge you to see the presentation we delivered at the charging > scheme open house in March so that the full context of the situation > and the financial landscape we face is clear to you. The slides are > available at: > > https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem… > <https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem…> > > > Finally, I want to thank all those who have contributed to the > consultation so far on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. The models > we present here are draft and in two weeks we will announce the final > proposal that members will vote on at the GM on 22-24 May. Please > discuss the draft proposal on the members-discuss(a)ripe.net > <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>list - any input received by 19 April > can be incorporated if possible into the final models we propose. And > make sure to register for the GM so that you can vote on the charging > scheme that will apply for you and all members next year: > > https://my.ripe.net/#/meetings/active > <https://my.ripe.net/#/meetings/active> > > > Simon-Jan Haytink > > Chief Financial Officer > > RIPE NCC > > > Services and Activities Covered by the Member Fee > > > - A trusted, efficient, accurate and resilient registry that > guarantees uniqueness of resources held by members > > - Neutral information services uninfluenced by commercial or > government interests that allow both the RIPE NCC and the community to > carry out useful research into the Internet > > - Engagement activities, including RIPE and regional meetings, that > build an active membership and community and that contribute to the > overall good of the Internet > > - A voice and influence for the membership in key decision-making > fora, including with governments and regulators > > - Protection of the Joint Internet Number Registry as developed by the > Internet community > > - Learning and development activities that help to address skills > shortages and contribute to an educated membership > > - Support for the Policy Development Process (PDP) > > - An authoritative registry of routing information provided by RPKI > and the RIPE Database > > - K-root and DNS services > > - A dedicated staff with considerable expertise contributing to all of > the above > >

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by sdy＠a-n-t.ru 15 Apr '24

15 Apr '24

If you pay more tax have you more rights? > On 15/04/2024 09:22, Michel Lanners wrote: >> Because RIPE is a MEMBERSHIP organisation. It’s not a commercial company selling something. >> >> If I’m asked to pay more I also want more voting rights. Consequence: the few big ones will dominate and steer RIPE in the direction THEY want. I don’t think that’s in the interest of those who yell at the unfair membership rate. >> >> RIPE is fair because every member has the same right and the same one vote. > > No, you're not getting more voting rights by paying more. > It is common practice in membership orgs to charge members according to their category or size, and it's still 1 member = 1 vote. > > > Sebastien Brossier > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru > ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.

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Response from Board on Charging Scheme Comments
by Ondrej Filip 13 Apr '24

13 Apr '24

Dear members, Thank you very much for your comments on the proposed Charging Scheme options. I am sorry I am not able to answer all your messages individually. It is not in my capability to do so. However, I want to assure you we read all your comments and take them seriously. In this message I will, of course, not address those comments that express a support for the board's proposal. First of all, the board is carefully listening to the members. We opened several channels to collect your feedback. We had the RIPE NCC Survey followed by the Open House discussion, and both indicated that members want the RIPE NCC to continue with the current projects helping our primary mission, which is to support technical coordination in our region. I understand that some of you have different opinions but we need to also consider the wishes and opinions of the wider membership. So we are preparing the Activity Plan and Budget in this regard. The discussion on this topic will be held in the Autumn. But whatever is the output of this discussion, the Charging Scheme should cover the expected company costs. Please note that a vast majority of our costs are related to salaries. That is something that we cannot get rid off quickly even if we decide to stop some of the projects. The RIPE NCC has to and will respect the local labour law in the Netherlands and other respective countries. We (the board and staff) will be very happy to discuss the usefulness of all activities, but again the survey very strongly indicated that the majority of the members does not want any radical change in this regard and is satisfied with the current NCC activities. The board and the management of the company take very seriously members' concerns related to the company costs. We made a lot of effort to cut many of them last year and again this year. However, it is necessary to note that cost saving cannot go on indefinitely. We strongly believe that the quality of our services cannot be affected and that we should continue to provide world class services to our members and community. On top of it, please keep in mind the rapidly changing environment we operate in. The high inflation in the previous years is one of the drivers of the costs. We employ highly skilled people and I guess that is something most of you recognize. But those people deserve corresponding salaries. Another aspect is related to security and privacy. As you know we have made a lot of improvements in this area. And yet with NIS2, there will be more of it. Last but not least, the changing geo-political situation brings many additional burdens that we need to deal with. By that I mean sanctions and other things related to the biggest war in our service region during the RIPE NCC’s existence. Saying all that, again I don't want to reconcile to the fact that costs are rising. The board with the management will continue to find opportunities for cost saving. Also please keep in mind that the fees are upper limits of what the NCC needs to operate. If we create a surplus (which is what we believe in) it can be redistributed by the standard mechanisms we use. We do not want to needlessly accumulate money, but we have to be sure the fees can allow the NCC to operate in this rapidly changing environment. It wouldn't be responsible to propose fees that would not allow the NCC to cover its costs. On the comments asking that the RIPE NCC budget be linked to the number of LIR accounts, it is true that the number of LIR accounts is reducing. But the number of members is actually very stable and using the membership number as a guide provides more stability than looking at LIR numbers. And the costs for the RIPE NCC are not necessarily linked to the number of accounts anyway. Also, as I noted above, IPv4 scarcity and the outbreak of war has added a lot of complexity to the work of the RIPE NCC just as the number of LIR accounts has started to reduce. For example, work to secure the registry or defend the registry system needs to happen regardless of how many LIR accounts there are. Let me also address the point of the fee structure and alternative suggestions raised by several of you. I understand and sympathise with the idea that the current fee structure means that the majority of the budget is covered by small members while larger and richer companies pay a minor part. This concept was approved a long time ago and the board unsuccessfully tried to propose changes. We are very open to discuss this topic again and again, but so far there is no solid model on the table. But we hear you and we will continue this discussion with you. Again, thank you for your comments and reactions. I am looking forward to meeting you for the GM in the beautiful town of Krakow or online. On behalf of the Executive Board Ondrej

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Unfair RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025
by Евгений Удовихин 13 Apr '24

13 Apr '24

Hello colleagues! I propose to add option "D" of LIR fees proportional to the number of IP resources and ASNs of a given LIR. Now we have an unfair situation when small companies and huge corporations pay the same amount. Thank you!

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RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: Recording and Slides Available
by Fergal Cunningham 12 Apr '24

12 Apr '24

Dear all, This Wednesday, 20 March, we held an Open House with members about the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. There was a presentation from RIPE NCC staff, including our CFO and Managing Director, as well as statements from both the Executive Board Chair and Treasurer. There was a productive discussion about the financial landscape we are operating in and thoughts about how best to fund the RIPE NCC. The Executive Board will meet on Monday and discuss what we heard this week, and they will decide on a draft charging proposal to put forward to the members in April. The session recording and the slides from the presentation are available at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem… At the bottom of this mail you can find the timestamps for the sections of the presentation and Q&A. We greatly appreciate the input we received from members this week and the constructive nature of the discussions. We encourage you all to continue to discuss the charging scheme on this list. Kind regards, Fergal Cunningham Head of Membership Engagement RIPE NCC Open House Timestamps 01:30 Welcome and Agenda, Fergal Cunningham 04:30 Development and History of the Charging Scheme, Fergal Cunningham 12:45 Consolidation and Inflation, Simon Jan Haytink 19:10 The Work We Need to Fund, Simon Jan Haytink 22:30 Summary and Key Questions, Hans Petter Holen 27:20 Statement from Executive Board Chair, Ondřej Filip 30:30 Statement from Executive Board Treasurer, Raymond Jetten 32:45 Q&A with RIPE NCC Members

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by Kaj Niemi 12 Apr '24

12 Apr '24

Hi, Very politely put I do not think any of the three proposed charging schemes are in the membership's interest - they certainly aren't in mine. All three seem to be designed to assure that NCC can continue along, business as usual, with its tasks. Thus, we could pretend that there isn't a big issue with the membership numbers declining. We could also pretend there isn't a real problem with the value proposition of the services. Furthermore, we could also pretend that we do not care that it all is conveniently funded by the membership. I mean, what is 1500 or 1900 euro to most people? I have heard the last several times in the past. After all, why should we care about the expenditure when the sums are so small for each LIR? Why should we care when it is not our own money? I'll tell you. Not caring about the transaction size is bad, if you are willing to let these kinds of sums slide, you'll let it slide on bigger amounts. As is treating other people's money (OPM) differently than if it were your own. These eventually lead to lack of accountability. What is being proposed is really a significant increase in membership fees. In particular, significantly above what it used to cost on average to produce services for each member (whether they use them or not). Note when I say what it used to cost, as in FY2024 the cost per LIR will be higher. Now, with the membership in further decline the average cost per member will once more be higher in FY2025. Next year, I forecast that we will have the same "discussion" for FY2026 as NCC comes around and asks for more money. Once again. Why? Because according to projections the amount of members will continue to decrease resulting in higher fees per organization. Once again. All in the advantageous name of the articles of association that allow pretty much anything. Following the above rational thought with another is, that what one should be doing is choosing what to either invoice separately or drop completely. Yes, really. Everyone is happy with free services, it is when you apply the money test - request someone to pay for something - when you see if what you create contains value. Considering NCC managed to "save" 5% in the FY2024 budget compared to FY2023, asking for 8.1% increase (4% annualized) the next year is, well, kind of cheeky. It restores the budget pretty much to what it would have been with two annual increases. As an exercise in budgetary engineering I do approve. As a paying member I do not. What really would be needed is competition. Competition would make the RIR market more efficient. It is rather obvious that the RIR markets aren't anywhere near the efficiency they could be at. Competition would mean that people wanting to pay 1900 - or even more in the future - could choose to do so and those who don't want could potentially pay less. Reduced to the very basics one is paying for bits in a database. In that sense this is rather similar to the certificate market where at one time the cost per certificate was sky high and there were only a few issuers. Today, I am guessing most do not pay thousands annually for a few bits in theirs. Neither do most people care whether the cert was issued by Verisign, Gandi or someone else. Having looked into it out of curiosity, real competition does not seem to be possible as the principles in ICP-2 pretty much state that there can/should only be one RIR per region. Which makes NCC the definition of a monopoly. Monopolies with nice and polite people, well intended purpose and mission creep are not good, they're bad. For everyone. Finally, the surplus. The concept itself is interesting and I do know where it comes from. But from an financial point of view it is really lending money to someone else and then (maybe) getting it back, a year later, less inflation if they did not spend it. I would kindly request that the EB would add option D or "Option D: No Changes from 2023". :) Kaj Kaj ________________________________ From: ncc-announce <ncc-announce-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf of Simon-Jan Haytink <simonjh(a)ripe.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 12:18 To: ncc-announce(a)ripe.net <ncc-announce(a)ripe.net> Subject: [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals You don't often get email from simonjh(a)ripe.net. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Dear RIPE NCC members, We can now share three draft charging scheme models for 2025 that the Executive Board approved with the following resolution at its meeting on 25 March 2024: The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the submission of the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 options to the upcoming RIPE NCC General Meeting for members to vote on. - Option A - Charging Scheme as is with 22.58% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,900) and a 0% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 50) - Option B - Charging Scheme as is with 20.97% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,875) and a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) - Option C - Charging Scheme as is with 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment *Resources falling under this charge are IPv4 and IPv6 PI assignments; Anycast assignments; IPv4 and IPv6 IXP assignments; and Legacy IPv4 resource registrations through a sponsoring LIR. The full draft charging scheme models are available from the GM Documentation page: https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/documentation… Although the proposed models are relatively simple, we provide a calculator where you can see exactly what you would pay under each of the proposed models: https://www.ripe.net/documents/3757/CS2025_Member_Calculator.xlsx The main considerations for the Executive Board in proposing these three models are: 1. The consolidation of LIR accounts, which means the burden to generate sufficient income must be met by fewer accounts 2. Increased costs due to inflation that were previously catered for by the large number of LIR accounts 3. Following the discussions last year and again this year, there appears to be no clear consensus among members on how a category-based model would work and the Board does not wish to put another category model forward at the upcoming GM that will be rejected by the members. Rather, the Board will propose a simple model that guarantees adequate funding for 2025 and 2026 - under this proposal, we expect there would be no need for a fee increase for 2026. The Board will work with the RIPE NCC on a more in-depth consultation with the members aimed at arriving at a sustainable solution for 2027 and beyond, possibly involving a new charging scheme task force. All three proposed models are designed to arrive at the same income of EUR 41.1 million for the RIPE NCC in 2025. This will cover all current services and activities, a 5% staff cost increase, a 2% inflation increase on all non-staff costs, and EUR 1 million for additional work relating to registry complexity and security projects aimed at ensuring the resilience of the Registry and the RIPE NCC more broadly. Any such additional work would be discussed with the membership during Activity Plan and Budget consultations and then need to be approved by the Board. This will also allow some leeway should more LIR accounts close than we expect. It’s important to note that the RIPE NCC aims for an income budget that will provide a surplus, and this means that should we meet our budgetary targets, a surplus can be returned to members in 2026 should they so wish. While the RIPE NCC continues to carry out cost-cutting efforts across the organisation, drastically reducing the budget at this time is not advisable due to the work that needs to be carried out, especially in relation to maintaining high-quality registry services and securing the registry and RIPE NCC systems. Cutting services or activities is not something the Board is planning to do, and such actions would take time and need full consultation with the membership. An overview of the activities and services that the membership fee covers is provided below this email. I also urge you to see the presentation we delivered at the charging scheme open house in March so that the full context of the situation and the financial landscape we face is clear to you. The slides are available at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem… Finally, I want to thank all those who have contributed to the consultation so far on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. The models we present here are draft and in two weeks we will announce the final proposal that members will vote on at the GM on 22-24 May. Please discuss the draft proposal on the members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> list - any input received by 19 April can be incorporated if possible into the final models we propose. And make sure to register for the GM so that you can vote on the charging scheme that will apply for you and all members next year: https://my.ripe.net/#/meetings/active Simon-Jan Haytink Chief Financial Officer RIPE NCC Services and Activities Covered by the Member Fee - A trusted, efficient, accurate and resilient registry that guarantees uniqueness of resources held by members - Neutral information services uninfluenced by commercial or government interests that allow both the RIPE NCC and the community to carry out useful research into the Internet - Engagement activities, including RIPE and regional meetings, that build an active membership and community and that contribute to the overall good of the Internet - A voice and influence for the membership in key decision-making fora, including with governments and regulators - Protection of the Joint Internet Number Registry as developed by the Internet community - Learning and development activities that help to address skills shortages and contribute to an educated membership - Support for the Policy Development Process (PDP) - An authoritative registry of routing information provided by RPKI and the RIPE Database - K-root and DNS services - A dedicated staff with considerable expertise contributing to all of the above

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