Re: [address-policy-wg] [Ticket#2012092701011684] FW: Sub-allocations - fast and simple re-using IP-addresses
And for this very special “may” we should treat the whole existing idea as obsolete? Regards, Vladislav Potapov IIAT, Ltd. Ru.iiat From: LeaderTelecom B.V. [mailto:info@leadertelecom.nl] Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 2:35 PM To: Potapov Vladislav Cc: address-policy-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [Ticket#2012092701011684] [address-policy-wg] FW: Sub-allocations - fast and simple re-using IP-addresses Dear Vladislav, It is just one case. Anyway may be some company started big telecom project which was paused and they have IPs which they can't use in this moment. -- Kind regards, Alexey Ivanov LeaderTelecom B.V. Team 11.10.2012 12:37 - написал(а):
For example, in Russia you need 1,5-2 years from incorporation until receving all permissions (licenses, etc.) from goverment to provide telecommunication services. In this case company can sub-allocate all space for some time.
Alexey Ivanov
I think this message is irrelevant (as soon as the new company won’t have much to sub-allocate) and misleading in the terms of time margins for beginners. Regards, Vladislav Potapov IIAT, Ltd. Ru.iiat
Dear Vladislav, It is not just "may". It is real case. Permanenent transfer cost 10USD per 1 IP. It is too high. We won't pay this money. We ready pay monthly. It this case the best way to give legal IPs for us - make "sub allocation". But we have restricion in policy - another LIR can sub-allocate only /20 every twelve months. This is too small size. While we need assign now in several times more. And as soon as we will assign this space - we will receive additional requests, but the same supplier by current policy can't give us additional networks while he can do it only one time in twelve months. About "may" - it was an example when can be sub-allocated all space. While Gert Doering wrote about this case. -- Kind regards, Alexey Ivanov LeaderTelecom B.V. Team 11.10.2012 14:51 - написал(а): And for this very special “may” we should treat the whole existing idea as obsolete? Regards, Vladislav Potapov IIAT, Ltd. Ru.iiat From: LeaderTelecom B.V. [mailto:info@leadertelecom.nl] Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 2:35 PM To: Potapov Vladislav Cc: address-policy-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [Ticket#2012092701011684] [address-policy-wg] FW: Sub-allocations - fast and simple re-using IP-addresses Dear Vladislav, It is just one case. Anyway may be some company started big telecom project which was paused and they have IPs which they can't use in this moment. -- Kind regards, Alexey Ivanov LeaderTelecom B.V. Team 11.10.2012 12:37 - написал(а):
For example, in Russia you need 1,5-2 years from incorporation until receving all permissions (licenses, etc.) from goverment to provide telecommunication services. In this case company can sub-allocate all space for some time. Alexey Ivanov I think this message is irrelevant (as soon as the new company won’t have much to sub-allocate) and misleading in the terms of time margins for beginners. Regards, Vladislav Potapov IIAT, Ltd. Ru.iiat
Hi Alexey,
Permanenent transfer cost [...]
Please remember that the current transfer policy explicitly states "This re-allocation may be on either a permanent or non-permanent basis." so you can already use the current transfer policy for temporary transfers. - Sander
Dear Sander,
Permanenent transfer cost [...]
Please remember that the current transfer policy explicitly states "This re-allocation may be on either a permanent or non-permanent basis." so you can already use the current transfer policy for temporary transfers.
After temporary transfer you can receive back IPs which listed in Spamhouse. I don't know any company which will temporary transfers IPs. -- Kind regards, Alexey Ivanov LeaderTelecom B.V. 12.10.2012 15:29 - Sander Steffann написал(а): Hi Alexey,
Permanenent transfer cost [...]
Please remember that the current transfer policy explicitly states "This re-allocation may be on either a permanent or non-permanent basis." so you can already use the current transfer policy for temporary transfers. - Sander
Hi, On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 04:06:04PM +0400, LeaderTelecom B.V. wrote:
Permanenent transfer cost [...]
Please remember that the current transfer policy explicitly states "This re-allocation may be on either a permanent or non-permanent basis." so you can already use the current transfer policy for temporary transfers.
After temporary transfer you can receive back IPs which listed in Spamhouse. I don't know any company which will temporary transfers IPs.
So how is this different from a sub-allocation which is then listed in Spamhouse? I'm finding this argument difficult to understand. Gert Doering -- APWG chair -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Dear Gert,
So how is this different from a sub-allocation which is then listed in Spamhouse?
I'm finding this argument difficult to understand.
When you make sub-allocation - you will receive abuses and discuss these issues with client and cancel agreement if it was broken by client. After temporary transfer you can't receive abuses. You don't know anything about IPs until they will be returned back. They are not under your control. -- Kind regards, Alexey Ivanov LeaderTelecom B.V. Team 14.10.2012 16:10 - Gert Doering написал(а): Hi, On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 04:06:04PM +0400, LeaderTelecom B.V. wrote:
Permanenent transfer cost [...]
Please remember that the current transfer policy explicitly states "This re-allocation may be on either a permanent or non-permanent basis." so you can already use the current transfer policy for temporary transfers.
After temporary transfer you can receive back IPs which listed in Spamhouse. I don't know any company which will temporary transfers IPs.
So how is this different from a sub-allocation which is then listed in Spamhouse? I'm finding this argument difficult to understand. Gert Doering -- APWG chair -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi,
Permanenent transfer cost [...]
Please remember that the current transfer policy explicitly states "This re-allocation may be on either a permanent or non-permanent basis." so you can already use the current transfer policy for temporary transfers.
After temporary transfer you can receive back IPs which listed in Spamhouse. I don't know any company which will temporary transfers IPs.
But exactly the same can happen with sub-allocated address space. Why would transfers be any different? At least with a transfer you can show that the responsibility for those addresses was (temporarily) transferred to another organisation. With sub-allocated addresses the responsibility remains with the original holder, who would then probably even have a bigger problem explaining everything and getting off the spam lists. This seems to be an argument *in favour* of using temporary transfers... Sander
But exactly the same can happen with sub-allocated address space. Why would transfers be any different? At least with a transfer you can show that the responsibility for those addresses was (temporarily) transferred to another organisation. With sub-allocated addresses the responsibility remains with
Dear Sander, the
original holder, who would then probably even have a bigger problem explaining everything and getting off the spam lists.
This seems to be an argument *in favour* of using temporary transfers...
It is very difficult discuss with black lists delisting. Some of black lists can ignore requests. It is better prevent blacklisting. If I understund well policy of transfers - minimal term of transfer - 2 years. It is too long too. I understund that it is normail for EU, but for Russia most of agreement usualy for 1 year. -- Kind regards, Alexey Ivanov LeaderTelecom B.V. Team URL: [1]http://www.LeaderTelecom.nl/ - IP- addresses URL: [2]http://www.GetWildcard.com/nl - WildCard SSL certificates 14.10.2012 16:23 - Sander Steffann написал(а): Hi,
Permanenent transfer cost [...]
Please remember that the current transfer policy explicitly states "This re-allocation may be on either a permanent or non-permanent basis." so you can already use the current transfer policy for temporary transfers.
After temporary transfer you can receive back IPs which listed in Spamhouse. I don't know any company which will temporary transfers IPs.
But exactly the same can happen with sub-allocated address space. Why would transfers be any different? At least with a transfer you can show that the responsibility for those addresses was (temporarily) transferred to another organisation. With sub-allocated addresses the responsibility remains with the original holder, who would then probably even have a bigger problem explaining everything and getting off the spam lists. This seems to be an argument *in favour* of using temporary transfers... Sander [1] http://www.leadertelecom.nl/ [2] http://www.GetWildcard.com/nl
Hi,
It is very difficult discuss with black lists delisting. Some of black lists can ignore requests.
IMHO blacklist operators should keep an eye on address transfers and adjust their lists accordingly. But what makes you think that abuse complaints will always reach the original holder of the address space and not only the holder of the sub-allocated space?
It is better prevent blacklisting.
That is always true :-)
If I understund well policy of transfers - minimal term of transfer - 2 years.
No it doesn't. It says that the organisation *receiving* the address space may not transfer it on within 24 months. There are no constraints in the policy about the term for temporary transfers. - Sander
Hi,
It is very difficult discuss with black lists delisting. Some of black lists can ignore requests. IMHO blacklist operators should keep an eye on address transfers and adjust their lists accordingly. Seeing that some RBL providers seem to be more of an extortion business
On 14.10.2012 14:53, Sander Steffann wrote: than spam prevention, I doubt you will have a hard time getting out of the lists quickly if required ... though, I don't see why this should be a problem preventing sub-allocations, as long as the original holder of the address space is aware of the risks, and is not so short in addresses that they need to be re-used right away once they are returned ... -garry
I doubt you will have a hard time getting out of the lists quickly if required ... This of course was supposed to read "I doubt you will get out of the
On 14.10.2012 16:54, Garry Glendown wrote: list quickly" ... at least without paying for it ... -garry
I don't know any company which will temporary transfers IPs.
i have given multi-year loans, admittedly not transfers as they did not exist at the time, a number of times. i have space out on loan now. randy
participants (6)
-
Garry Glendown -
Gert Doering -
LeaderTelecom B.V. -
poty＠iiat.ru -
Randy Bush -
Sander Steffann