@EXT: RE: Get a warrant or direct request ?
Hi again, I am a bit puzzled by this statement. If you only have the information concerning the tech support of said company, you would invest time and effort in sending the request to that country - where they would turn down the request as the company is not legally incorporated in such country, but in another one, at which point you would have to do all the process again, losing time and wasting resources. Just because you could not immediately pinpoint a geographical jurisdiction. This is why this proposal is useful, and not only for LEAs. I imagine CSIRTs could have the same view. Best, Sara -----Original Message----- From: ncc-services-wg [mailto:ncc-services-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Jim Reid Sent: 10 October 2018 15:17 To: ROBINOT Stephane DCPJ SDLC Cc: RIPE NCC Services WG Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Get a warrant or direct request ?
On 10 Oct 2018, at 13:21, ROBINOT Stephane DCPJ SDLC <stephane.robinot@interieur.gouv.fr> wrote:
So one question might also be : would you agree answering an official request coming directly from a foreign LEA ?
IIUC it doesn't work that way. Overseas law enforcement is supposed to contact the appropriate national law enforcement body and have them make the request on their behalf. Anyone else who approaches a registry should be told to go through the official (MLAT?) channels. ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. *******************
On 10 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Marcolla, Sara Veronica <Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu> wrote:
I am a bit puzzled by this statement. If you only have the information concerning the tech support of said company, you would invest time and effort in sending the request to that country - where they would turn down the request as the company is not legally incorporated in such country, but in another one, at which point you would have to do all the process again, losing time and wasting resources. Just because you could not immediately pinpoint a geographical jurisdiction.
Sara, we seem to be talking at cross purposes. I was answering the OP’s question about what happens when overseas law enforcement knocks on the door of the NCC (or some other registry). To answer your question, law enforcement obviously wouldn’t or shouldn’t send an MLAT request to the wrong jurisdiction. Just like they wouldn’t submit an extradition request (say) to the wrong court. That’s common sense.
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018, Marcolla, Sara Veronica wrote:
Hi again,
I am a bit puzzled by this statement. If you only have the information concerning the tech support of said company, you would invest time and effort in sending the request to that country - where they would turn down the request as the company is not legally incorporated in such country, but in another one, at which point you would have to do all the process again, losing time and wasting resources. Just because you could not immediately pinpoint a geographical jurisdiction.
This is why this proposal is useful, and not only for LEAs. I imagine CSIRTs could have the same view.
<CSIRT hat = ON> Yes, it is useful -- and a CSIRT is *NOT* a Law Enforcement Agency. ps: i would say very few CSIRT people are on this list -- and i would like to be proven wrong. :-) Regards, Carlos
Best, Sara
-----Original Message----- From: ncc-services-wg [mailto:ncc-services-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Jim Reid Sent: 10 October 2018 15:17 To: ROBINOT Stephane DCPJ SDLC Cc: RIPE NCC Services WG Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Get a warrant or direct request ?
On 10 Oct 2018, at 13:21, ROBINOT Stephane DCPJ SDLC <stephane.robinot@interieur.gouv.fr> wrote:
So one question might also be : would you agree answering an official request coming directly from a foreign LEA ?
IIUC it doesn't work that way.
Overseas law enforcement is supposed to contact the appropriate national law enforcement body and have them make the request on their behalf. Anyone else who approaches a registry should be told to go through the official (MLAT?) channels.
*******************
DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated.
*******************
Hi Carlos, On 10/10/18 23:45, Carlos Friaças wrote: [...]
ps: i would say very few CSIRT people are on this list -- and i would like to be proven wrong. :-)
well, at least there are some, but yes, we may be just a few :-) but we often know who to talk to if needed. And, on a side-line, the industry and/or national CERTs in many country do have a pretty good knowledge of how to find and contact local players. which IMHO is another argument for *not* trying to find some contact info from abroad and afar and send requests along an "arbitrary" pattern, but rather to follow the established paths. And yes, some of those paths are not really well-established yet, and need some improvement. But I can't see a substantial difference when compared to other fields of complaints and/or investigations, either financial, fraud, criminal, traffic violations... Cheers, Wilfried
Regards, Carlos
Hi,
This is why this proposal is useful, and not only for LEAs, I imagine CSIRTs could have the same view. I think any proposal can demonstrate that it is useful in some cases, to fix this issue of "losing time and wasting resources", someone needs to pay the price. I still cannot see that much benefit for the RIPE community here to outweigh the costs. so I'm against it for the moment.
Regards, Arash Naderpour On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 12:33 AM Marcolla, Sara Veronica < Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu> wrote:
Hi again,
I am a bit puzzled by this statement. If you only have the information concerning the tech support of said company, you would invest time and effort in sending the request to that country - where they would turn down the request as the company is not legally incorporated in such country, but in another one, at which point you would have to do all the process again, losing time and wasting resources. Just because you could not immediately pinpoint a geographical jurisdiction.
This is why this proposal is useful, and not only for LEAs. I imagine CSIRTs could have the same view.
Best, Sara
-----Original Message----- From: ncc-services-wg [mailto:ncc-services-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Jim Reid Sent: 10 October 2018 15:17 To: ROBINOT Stephane DCPJ SDLC Cc: RIPE NCC Services WG Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Get a warrant or direct request ?
On 10 Oct 2018, at 13:21, ROBINOT Stephane DCPJ SDLC < stephane.robinot@interieur.gouv.fr> wrote:
So one question might also be : would you agree answering an official request coming directly from a foreign LEA ?
IIUC it doesn't work that way.
Overseas law enforcement is supposed to contact the appropriate national law enforcement body and have them make the request on their behalf. Anyone else who approaches a registry should be told to go through the official (MLAT?) channels.
*******************
DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated.
*******************
participants (5)
-
Arash Naderpour -
Carlos Friaças -
Jim Reid -
Marcolla, Sara Veronica -
Wilfried Wöber