Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2016
I'm not that sure anymore, the AS transfer policy is being implemented and ASN16s will soon have a value once the free pool is depleted.
People have learnt from v4 that you don't give up scarce things. One day people will pay for them, and as I said the other week if you want to garbage collect them you'd have to charge a high price to make it worth giving up (or pay as others have suggested) and people won't vote for that. A 50 Euro fee is way too low to do it and a pointless complication to the simplified charging scheme. I also doubt the unadvertised figure gives the whole picture, some will be used privately (no idea how many). I think trying to retrofit other hand back schemes now is futile (it was hard to hand back once, back when people wanted to hand back) brandon
Hi Brandon, I do not really believe that the purpose of this discussion has ever been garbage collection. It may seem like that but I doubt it. As Daniel pointed out, there are stats showing that the RIPE NCC has been allocated 25624(AS16)+5632(AS32)= 31256 out of which 4128 are not assigned yet. That makes it 27128 assigned ASNs. If each would have a (very low) 50E fee, that would bring ~1.35M Eur additional budget to the RIPE NCC which could be spent on outreach or could be used to lower member fees. I think that is the discussion we are having and I believe this has always been the reasoning for the presentation at the GM and the noise on the mailing list. I also think we should forget about garbage collection in ASN16 because it will never happen. If companies/LIRs ever decide to hand ASN16 back, it's only because they want to, nobody will be able to 'force' them, either by adding a fee to the ASN or by chasing them when the ASN is not in use. From my point of view, ASN16s, once depleted (and we are still a couple of years from that moment), will have a value and will be traded.. if you need one to be able to use communities in BGP, you buy one... otherwise, you get a 32bit from the RIPE NCC for free. This is my last reply on this topic, I think I have made myself very clear. Regards, Elvis On 29/03/15 15:24, Brandon Butterworth wrote:
I'm not that sure anymore, the AS transfer policy is being implemented and ASN16s will soon have a value once the free pool is depleted. People have learnt from v4 that you don't give up scarce things.
One day people will pay for them, and as I said the other week if you want to garbage collect them you'd have to charge a high price to make it worth giving up (or pay as others have suggested) and people won't vote for that. A 50 Euro fee is way too low to do it and a pointless complication to the simplified charging scheme.
I also doubt the unadvertised figure gives the whole picture, some will be used privately (no idea how many).
I think trying to retrofit other hand back schemes now is futile (it was hard to hand back once, back when people wanted to hand back)
brandon
-- <http://v4escrow.net> Elvis Daniel Velea Chief Executive Officer Email: elvis@V4Escrow.net <mailto:elvis@v4escrow.net> US Phone: +1 (702) 475 5914 EU Phone: +31 (0) 61458 1914 Recognised IPv4 Broker/Facilitator in: This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original.Any other use of this email is strictly prohibited.
On 29/03/2015 15:05, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote:
I do not really believe that the purpose of this discussion has ever been garbage collection. It may seem like that but I doubt it.
Elvis, it has been very clear from the beginning - in AP-WG, the last GM and on members-discuss@ - that one of the primary aims of charging for ASNs is ASN16 garbage collection. Nick
Hey guys: In principle I understand the policy part, but the chance someone would give up their 16bits ASN over 50euro is very small-if any. And for 32 bits, I think we have more than enough.
On 2015年3月29日, at 下午5:48, Nick Hilliard <nick@netability.ie> wrote:
On 29/03/2015 15:05, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote: I do not really believe that the purpose of this discussion has ever been garbage collection. It may seem like that but I doubt it.
Elvis, it has been very clear from the beginning - in AP-WG, the last GM and on members-discuss@ - that one of the primary aims of charging for ASNs is ASN16 garbage collection.
Nick
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Hi, On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 04:05:39PM +0200, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote:
I do not really believe that the purpose of this discussion has ever been garbage collection. It may seem like that but I doubt it.
That is why Nick and I have brought up the issue - related to the discussion we're having in AP regarding the proposal to make the AS number policy slightly less restrictive (because it currently does not permit existing real-world cases) while still preventing abuse / reclaiming unused ASes that are truly no longer needed. [..]
That makes it 27128 assigned ASNs. If each would have a (very low) 50E fee, that would bring ~1.35M Eur additional budget to the RIPE NCC which could be spent on outreach or could be used to lower member fees. I think that is the discussion we are having and I believe this has always been the reasoning for the presentation at the GM and the noise on the mailing list.
Don't believe or assume, just ask the people that bring something forward, instead of publically claiming some underlying reason that is not there. 2007-01 and the various followup discussions have never been about money (either way).
I also think we should forget about garbage collection in ASN16 because it will never happen. If companies/LIRs ever decide to hand ASN16 back, it's only because they want to, nobody will be able to 'force' them, either by adding a fee to the ASN or by chasing them when the ASN is not in use.
Well, I know for sure that the at least one AS holder (me) returned his AS "from the early days of RIPE" because he couldn't be bothered to pay 50 EUR/year "just to have it" when it wasn't used any longer (of course I could have *afforded* it, but the nuisance factor was way too high). So it worked. Don't look at everything purely from the angle of "how can people make the most money out of numbers". Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi, [...] Don't believe or assume, just ask the people that bring something forward, instead of publically claiming some underlying reason that is not there.
2007-01 and the various followup discussions have never been about money (either way). Ok, maybe I'm just thinking too far and/or assuming some things that are only in my head.
I also think we should forget about garbage collection in ASN16 because it will never happen. If companies/LIRs ever decide to hand ASN16 back, it's only because they want to, nobody will be able to 'force' them, either by adding a fee to the ASN or by chasing them when the ASN is not in use. Well, I know for sure that the at least one AS holder (me) returned his AS "from the early days of RIPE" because he couldn't be bothered to pay 50 EUR/year "just to have it" when it wasn't used any longer (of course I could have *afforded* it, but the nuisance factor was way too high).
So it worked. Well, as I said, I have been working with some customers on M&As or
Hi, On 29/03/15 20:21, Gert Doering wrote: transfers where they have taken over networks/IP blocks and did not need the ASNs. Some of those ASNs have been returned. So, it does work, and not only if a 50E/year fee is added to each ASN. Some still do the right thing while others will see the value in a finite number.
Don't look at everything purely from the angle of "how can people make the most money out of numbers". Nowadays, with the experience of IPv4, everyone will look at numbers at a method to making money, especially if these numbers finite and depleted. I doubt holders of ASNs will return them to the NCC if they could make a buck.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster cheers, Elvis
PS: the brokerage business has changed how I see things. two years ago I would have said: hey, it's not use, return it, do the right thing; now I'm saying: hey, there's money to be made. -- <http://v4escrow.net> Elvis Daniel Velea Chief Executive Officer Email: elvis@V4Escrow.net <mailto:elvis@v4escrow.net> US Phone: +1 (702) 475 5914 EU Phone: +31 (0) 61458 1914 Recognised IPv4 Broker/Facilitator in: This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original.Any other use of this email is strictly prohibited.
participants (6)
-
Brandon Butterworth -
Elvis Daniel Velea -
Fahad AlShirawi -
Gert Doering -
Lu -
Nick Hilliard