Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
As requested … —- Dear Thomas, My name is Claudiu Foleanu from TENNET TELECOM and Interlan Association (We hosted RIPE71 in Romania). I have tried now for a couple of days to post to this topic but for some reason i cannot. I have already mailed ripe-ncc to check this issue. This topic is very important to us and we wish to contribute to it. Can you post this message for me? I have no other solution for this message to reach the members. Thanks so much. Best regards, Claudiu Foleanu ----------------------------------------------- Hi, We in Romania trough Interlan Association are complaining about the issues regarding ipv4 "market" (witch seems to be supported by the community) for over 1 year now. We had a consultant from RIPE in Bucharest and we detailed each and every issue regarding this problem. Ipv4 / Ipv6 was not created for people to make money. It was created to ensure communication between people. Don`t get me wrong, we are not against the market, the unused resources should be redistributed somehow (ripe-ncc,market). But we should take care and ensure that new entities can have IPv4 ip space. RIPE-NCC should request usability reports from every LIR at least once every year. Unused resources should be redistributed. Three times over the last couple of years we have lost ip space witch was rented from other LIR`s. Or had to pay a huge amount of money to transfer them. Three times now we had to renumber and remake the topology of the network in order to support the loss. Why are we not using more IPV6? Facebook is ipv6 akamai,google ok.. Nice. But we have over 10.000 divices routers,switches,etc.. witch do not support ipv6. And we are talking just about customer related devices. Their own home routers,switches,ip phones etc... We should convince China and the manufacturers to build software ipv6 ready! We already tried and it`s not that easy. One manufacturer asked for 200.000 usd in order to redo the software ipv6 ready for some routers. Ask VODAFONE why are they buying ipv4. The answer will be the same. Customers do not have ipv6 ready devices, or they have to many of their own devices ipv6 not ready. You should ask the customers of the LIRS if it was ok to get their ipv4 allocated space taken away by a notification received by email. Big companies should not be allowed to transfer ipv4 to their lir if they do not have at least 30 - 50% implementation on ipv6. We are putting the burden of the costs on the back of start-ups and leaving the big companies to profit on this market. I`m not quite sure what prompted this discussion but i`m glad it`s out! You should look into address space witch left Romania. I can tell you that over 50% at least of that address space was in use. I now get 3 -5 emails each day from small companies in Romania asking for address space. But we have none to give. We have allocated everything in order to try to help! Our solution: You make a new lir to get a /22 ok, then you cannot sell the ip address space. If the lir is for whatever reason closed the ip address space should be requested back. Nobody will create a new lir for a /22 and pay the fees required if the address space given it`s tied to that lir, it will just be to expensive. Best regards, Claudiu Foleanu TENNET TELECOM -----------------------------------------------
Hi, So .. replying to myself :wink: Proposed solution:
You make a new lir to get a /22 ok, then you cannot sell the ip address space. If the lir is for whatever reason closed the ip address space should be requested back. Nobody will create a new lir for a /22 and pay the fees required if the address space given it`s tied to that lir, it will just be to expensive.
I would love to live in a world where this solution works. When you forbid a product which has customer (buying IP space, drugs, other) all you are doing is moving the problem to an un-regulated market where the buyer (the innocent network who NEEDS the IP space and is down the wall) is going to be abused (US prohibition / war on drugs). While I morally totally agree with the principle, I can not see how it can be applied in a way which does not create more problems than it fixes. Thomas
The legality of what going on at the LIR/Address space in the RIPE NCC Market is "out-of-control". Our IT lawyer (Partner) @ BACH Law is currently investigating the legality of it, and whether or not RIPE NCC can be held responsible for this market, that is so obviously a black market of address space, being sold to highest bidder. The address space is not intended to be a very lucrative market, but should be a market where LIR's can sell off IP space, to other LIRs at same prices that RIPE NCC "sells" for. We are investigating whether or not it is, at all, legal to SELL IP's, since these are given on a FEE basis. The way we see it, IP space should NEVER belong to the LIR - it belongs to us ALL, but administered by RIPE - thus it should be completely impossible to sell! Med venlig hilsen / Best regards NOC In & Outbound Datacenter Arnold Nielsens Boulevard 62B, 2650 Hvidovre, Danmark Telefon: 6913 6920, Vagt: 6913 6940 ronnie@iodc.dk | iodc.dk | ssdvps.dk This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] På vegne af Thomas Mangin Sendt: 17. februar 2016 14:38 Til: members-discuss@ripe.net Emne: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple Hi, So .. replying to myself :wink: Proposed solution:
You make a new lir to get a /22 ok, then you cannot sell the ip address space. If the lir is for whatever reason closed the ip address space should be requested back. Nobody will create a new lir for a /22 and pay the fees required if the address space given it`s tied to that lir, it will just be to expensive.
I would love to live in a world where this solution works. When you forbid a product which has customer (buying IP space, drugs, other) all you are doing is moving the problem to an un-regulated market where the buyer (the innocent network who NEEDS the IP space and is down the wall) is going to be abused (US prohibition / war on drugs). While I morally totally agree with the principle, I can not see how it can be applied in a way which does not create more problems than it fixes. Thomas ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
We are investigating whether or not it is, at all, legal to SELL IP's, since these are given on a FEE basis. The way we see it, IP space should NEVER belong to the LIR - it belongs to us ALL, but administered by RIPE - thus it should be completely impossible to sell!
And this is going to help by … ??? Thomas
Hello Thomas, TL;DR : it's going to get as ugly as the taxi/uber fight is unless we implement a composite strategy to change our habbits and thinking. Le 17/02/2016 14:55, Thomas Mangin a écrit :
And this is going to help by … ???
Think of an inetnum as a taxi licence. It's free or cheap from the local authorities, but delivered in small numbers because current licence holders asks the authorities to restrict the market (think "last /8 policy"). Doing so, and allowing holders to sell their licences, authorities opened a market that taxi driver uses as a speculative market and even a "pension fund". Some speculators and rent-seekers went to buy as many licences as possible to rent them to new drivers, establishing a kind of feudal system. Now, a new way of doing something similar to taxi services appeared, that do not require a rare licence to operate (think IPv6). See what happens : licence holders, mostly backed and teased by their Lord (G7 in Paris), fought so hard that the alternative business can't operate on competitive grounds. Several solutions have been proposed, and of course, the french government choose the worst. Let's review some : - Release new licences -> licence value plummets, pensions are lost, drivers are angry, crooks release politician's compromising travel logs (who gave up Saal ? Warning shot…). In our world, that would be similar to a recovery campain to reclaim and redistribute wasted ressources. - Regulate licence price and slowly destroy this market by buying licences out and emiting non-transferable free licences -> a little softer than the first, but doesn't solve long term issues. - Deregulate them all : well, think of what a mess the driver who lost 200k€ worth of licence overnight will do to Uber drivers ? No, they won't realize it's their major taxi company who screwed them in the first place. How would it look to us ? Think of the "Let's party 'til it's over" strategy in other regions. Still no IPv6, AFAIK. So where are we going now ? By letting the inetnum market establish itself in Europe, RIPE NCC (so, us, as members), did the exact same idiotic thing than taxi drivers did when asking to be allowed to sell their licences. Enforcing scarce distribution of the last /8 with little to no oversight had a direct effect to encourage the free market (listing / transfer service) and creation of new LIRs. We're in phase 2 : still no Uber, still no solution. If RIPE had not opened the listing and transfer service, things would have gone wilder anyway : when crooks and rent-seekers possess a rare ressource, they always find their way to profit. No matter how we try to resist to this kind of abuse (giving value to something that shouldn't have any), it will still exist. Unless there's a real and strong authoritative action taken to forbid it. But how would we like RIPE NCC to have the power to kill any of us over ressourceus interruptus ? And what if we don't ? *** I can already forsee two major problems if no action is taken now : - Rent-seekers *WILL* take over RIPE NCC and hold us hostage at some point - They will fight against IPv6 in order to protect their asset's value and profits (as if IPv6 needed any help to not be deployed) *** I have no clean solution to the matter at hands. I'd like to find a composite of 3 axis : - Change the fee model to drain more value (and therefore power) to RIPE NCC from ressource abusers and rent-seekers while keeping the bar low enough for NFP and newcomers - Break the ownership feeling : no one should consider its IP space to be a property. Periodic renumbering to agregate smaller prefixes ? Allocation expiration date ? - Do anything to protect the ability for a new ISP to get basic ressources in order to try and compete against the existing market Of course, we should also progressively bring the transfer market to an end, and get back to an allocation model based on usage proof. And periodic audit. What do you think ? -- Jérôme Nicolle +33 6 19 31 27 14
What is bad to sell IPs? You tell the same, if someone buy some gold or oil and burn it to increase the price and make prifit, but the Members are still receiving the IPs. What is the difference will they receive IPs from the RIPE NCC directly or anyone will sell it? ----- Best regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO Tel.: +7 926 6908729 17.02.2016, 16:38, "Thomas Mangin" <thomas.mangin@exa-networks.co.uk>:
Hi,
So .. replying to myself :wink:
Proposed solution:
You make a new lir to get a /22 ok, then you cannot sell the ip address space. If the lir is for whatever reason closed the ip address space should be requested back. Nobody will create a new lir for a /22 and pay the fees required if the address space given it`s tied to that lir, it will just be to expensive.
I would love to live in a world where this solution works.
When you forbid a product which has customer (buying IP space, drugs, other) all you are doing is moving the problem to an un-regulated market where the buyer (the innocent network who NEEDS the IP space and is down the wall) is going to be abused (US prohibition / war on drugs).
While I morally totally agree with the principle, I can not see how it can be applied in a way which does not create more problems than it fixes.
Thomas
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Why it is bad to sell IP's? Take a look at the RIPE market... Prices are INSANE, and RIPE is being maximum abused by "brokers" - that's why it is bad, that IP's can be sold, nevertheless it is the reason why it should not be possible to sell! Med venlig hilsen / Best regards NOC In & Outbound Datacenter Arnold Nielsens Boulevard 62B, 2650 Hvidovre, Danmark Telefon: 6913 6920, Vagt: 6913 6940 ronnie@iodc.dk | iodc.dk | ssdvps.dk This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] På vegne af Aleksey Bulgakov Sendt: 17. februar 2016 14:50 Til: Thomas Mangin <thomas.mangin@exa-networks.co.uk>; members-discuss@ripe.net Emne: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple What is bad to sell IPs? You tell the same, if someone buy some gold or oil and burn it to increase the price and make prifit, but the Members are still receiving the IPs. What is the difference will they receive IPs from the RIPE NCC directly or anyone will sell it? ----- Best regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO Tel.: +7 926 6908729 17.02.2016, 16:38, "Thomas Mangin" <thomas.mangin@exa-networks.co.uk>:
Hi,
So .. replying to myself :wink:
Proposed solution:
You make a new lir to get a /22 ok, then you cannot sell the ip address space. If the lir is for whatever reason closed the ip address space should be requested back. Nobody will create a new lir for a /22 and pay the fees required if the address space given it`s tied to that lir, it will just be to expensive.
I would love to live in a world where this solution works.
When you forbid a product which has customer (buying IP space, drugs, other) all you are doing is moving the problem to an un-regulated market where the buyer (the innocent network who NEEDS the IP space and is down the wall) is going to be abused (US prohibition / war on drugs).
While I morally totally agree with the principle, I can not see how it can be applied in a way which does not create more problems than it fixes.
Thomas
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
So let's return IPs received before 2012 and aren't used (I think it is possible to check). There are /16 blocks, may be bigger. Or let's move to IPv6 and the IPv4 problem is closed ----- Best regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO Tel.: +7 926 6908729 17.02.2016, 17:02, "iODC Hostmaster" <hostmaster@iodc.dk>:
Why it is bad to sell IP's? Take a look at the RIPE market... Prices are INSANE, and RIPE is being maximum abused by "brokers" - that's why it is bad, that IP's can be sold, nevertheless it is the reason why it should not be possible to sell!
Med venlig hilsen / Best regards NOC
In & Outbound Datacenter Arnold Nielsens Boulevard 62B, 2650 Hvidovre, Danmark Telefon: 6913 6920, Vagt: 6913 6940 ronnie@iodc.dk | iodc.dk | ssdvps.dk
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
-----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] På vegne af Aleksey Bulgakov Sendt: 17. februar 2016 14:50 Til: Thomas Mangin <thomas.mangin@exa-networks.co.uk>; members-discuss@ripe.net Emne: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
What is bad to sell IPs? You tell the same, if someone buy some gold or oil and burn it to increase the price and make prifit, but the Members are still receiving the IPs. What is the difference will they receive IPs from the RIPE NCC directly or anyone will sell it?
----- Best regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO Tel.: +7 926 6908729
17.02.2016, 16:38, "Thomas Mangin" <thomas.mangin@exa-networks.co.uk>:
Hi,
So .. replying to myself :wink:
Proposed solution:
You make a new lir to get a /22 ok, then you cannot sell the ip address space. If the lir is for whatever reason closed the ip address space should be requested back. Nobody will create a new lir for a /22 and pay the fees required if the address space given it`s tied to that lir, it will just be to expensive.
I would love to live in a world where this solution works.
When you forbid a product which has customer (buying IP space, drugs, other) all you are doing is moving the problem to an un-regulated market where the buyer (the innocent network who NEEDS the IP space and is down the wall) is going to be abused (US prohibition / war on drugs).
While I morally totally agree with the principle, I can not see how it can be applied in a way which does not create more problems than it fixes.
Thomas
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
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* iODC Hostmaster <hostmaster@iodc.dk> [2016-02-17 15:18]:
Why it is bad to sell IP's?
Take a look at the RIPE market... Prices are INSANE, and RIPE is being maximum abused by "brokers" - that's why it is bad, that IP's can be sold, nevertheless it is the reason why it should not be possible to sell!
We had this discussion even before there *was* a transfer market. IPs WILL get transferred, money WILL be paid. The only thing that RIPE NCC did was to make it possible to document these transfers in the database. Before that there was chaos. There is practically NOTHING the NCC can do about the transfers happening. We had this discussions long ago. We saw it coming. People ignored IPv6. This is the result. I'm so tired talking about this. IPv4 is over and done and because people ignored this for a decade we're forced to fight against other people trying to make money from the last pool that was explicitly created to allow newcomes to enter a market that ONLY exists because others decided they did not want to invest into IPv6. Regards Sebastian -- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100 http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
Guys: take the wealth of rich people, distribute it amount everybody, and everybody get fair share and working for a central planning economy, does it sound familiar if you happen to be from one of communist countries?(I heard that quite often as I was born in one of communist countries, although if it is still communist are very debatable.) Central administration and central planning will require a large central administrative power with enforce body, Ripe NCC does not have the power either has the ability to enforce such thing, even it does have such power, history has told us such thing really doesn't work. Centralised resource planning only results corruption and less effective economy. The founder of Ripe community, Rob, alone with many other original starter Ripe community, said very wisely, "Ripe NCC are only a bookkeeper". and still till today I believe such fundamental value are very important to the very existence of RIR system, without claiming any power, therefore left RIPE NCC doing what it should be doing, be a registry and record resource whom using it, while protecting itself from any management/administration function(in which means power), so no government can come ask RIPE NCC to enforce anything, or even worse, seeking control of RIPE NCC. Please, leave RIPE NCC to be a simple book keeper and if you really wants to enforce something, go to your local government and propose a legislation, banning IPv4 transfer and ask big guy give you their unused IPv4 for example, just like the some government in history taken wealth from rich people give to the poor ones, they are the enforcing body, and they have the ability to re-distribute any resource they want. On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Sebastian Wiesinger <sebastian.wiesinger@noris.net> wrote:
* iODC Hostmaster <hostmaster@iodc.dk> [2016-02-17 15:18]:
Why it is bad to sell IP's?
Take a look at the RIPE market... Prices are INSANE, and RIPE is being maximum abused by "brokers" - that's why it is bad, that IP's can be sold, nevertheless it is the reason why it should not be possible to sell!
We had this discussion even before there *was* a transfer market. IPs WILL get transferred, money WILL be paid. The only thing that RIPE NCC did was to make it possible to document these transfers in the database. Before that there was chaos. There is practically NOTHING the NCC can do about the transfers happening. We had this discussions long ago. We saw it coming. People ignored IPv6. This is the result.
I'm so tired talking about this. IPv4 is over and done and because people ignored this for a decade we're forced to fight against other people trying to make money from the last pool that was explicitly created to allow newcomes to enter a market that ONLY exists because others decided they did not want to invest into IPv6.
Regards
Sebastian
-- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100
http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company
Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- -- Kind regards. Lu
Shouldn't this problem be solved on a higher level (IANA)? Or create a workgroup open to the other RIR's as well so we can solve this globally? Finding a solution that doesn't mean a huge increase in administrative work for the NCC or making the request procedure almost impossible for new LIR's is not a solution. Could be as easy as making the initial /22 of a LIR non-transferable? If you want more IP space to rent/lease/sell you can buy additional space from the RIR or other brokers. Regards Niels -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Namens Lu Heng Verzonden: woensdag 17 februari 2016 15:43 Aan: Sebastian Wiesinger <sebastian.wiesinger@noris.net> CC: members-discuss@ripe.net Onderwerp: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple Guys: take the wealth of rich people, distribute it amount everybody, and everybody get fair share and working for a central planning economy, does it sound familiar if you happen to be from one of communist countries?(I heard that quite often as I was born in one of communist countries, although if it is still communist are very debatable.) Central administration and central planning will require a large central administrative power with enforce body, Ripe NCC does not have the power either has the ability to enforce such thing, even it does have such power, history has told us such thing really doesn't work. Centralised resource planning only results corruption and less effective economy. The founder of Ripe community, Rob, alone with many other original starter Ripe community, said very wisely, "Ripe NCC are only a bookkeeper". and still till today I believe such fundamental value are very important to the very existence of RIR system, without claiming any power, therefore left RIPE NCC doing what it should be doing, be a registry and record resource whom using it, while protecting itself from any management/administration function(in which means power), so no government can come ask RIPE NCC to enforce anything, or even worse, seeking control of RIPE NCC. Please, leave RIPE NCC to be a simple book keeper and if you really wants to enforce something, go to your local government and propose a legislation, banning IPv4 transfer and ask big guy give you their unused IPv4 for example, just like the some government in history taken wealth from rich people give to the poor ones, they are the enforcing body, and they have the ability to re-distribute any resource they want. On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Sebastian Wiesinger <sebastian.wiesinger@noris.net> wrote:
* iODC Hostmaster <hostmaster@iodc.dk> [2016-02-17 15:18]:
Why it is bad to sell IP's?
Take a look at the RIPE market... Prices are INSANE, and RIPE is being maximum abused by "brokers" - that's why it is bad, that IP's can be sold, nevertheless it is the reason why it should not be possible to sell!
We had this discussion even before there *was* a transfer market. IPs WILL get transferred, money WILL be paid. The only thing that RIPE NCC did was to make it possible to document these transfers in the database. Before that there was chaos. There is practically NOTHING the NCC can do about the transfers happening. We had this discussions long ago. We saw it coming. People ignored IPv6. This is the result.
I'm so tired talking about this. IPv4 is over and done and because people ignored this for a decade we're forced to fight against other people trying to make money from the last pool that was explicitly created to allow newcomes to enter a market that ONLY exists because others decided they did not want to invest into IPv6.
Regards
Sebastian
-- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100
http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company
Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- -- Kind regards. Lu ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. **************************************************************************** Dit e-mailbericht is gecontroleerd op virussen. **************************************************************************** Sligro Food Group werkt aan een CO2-reductie van 20% in 2020. Wilt u meer weten over ons MVO-beleid en doelstellingen? Kijk op www.sligrofoodgroup.nl ****************************************************************************
That isn't practical. What happens if an entity with an LIR account is purchased by another entity with an LIR account; they would have to merge or move IPs from one to another. Your proposed policy would prohibit this, therefore complicating or potentially prohibiting the sale and acquisition of web hosts. Kindest regards, -- Olorin Henderson, Operations Director, [Cloud Unboxed Limited] w: cloudunboxed.net [http://www.cloudunboxed.net/] | e: olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net [mailto:olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net] | t: +44 (0)33 0088 2444 Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressed individual or entity only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then discard this e-mail. Unauthorized copying, sharing and distributing of this e-mail is prohibited. The content in this e-mail does not necessarily represent the views of the company. The addressee should check all attachments for malware; the company makes no representation as regards the absence of malware in attachments to this e-mail. On 17/02/2016 15:18:41, Kampen, Niels van <nvkampen@sligro.nl> wrote: Shouldn't this problem be solved on a higher level (IANA)? Or create a workgroup open to the other RIR's as well so we can solve this globally? Finding a solution that doesn't mean a huge increase in administrative work for the NCC or making the request procedure almost impossible for new LIR's is not a solution. Could be as easy as making the initial /22 of a LIR non-transferable? If you want more IP space to rent/lease/sell you can buy additional space from the RIR or other brokers. Regards Niels -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Namens Lu Heng Verzonden: woensdag 17 februari 2016 15:43 Aan: Sebastian Wiesinger CC: members-discuss@ripe.net Onderwerp: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple Guys: take the wealth of rich people, distribute it amount everybody, and everybody get fair share and working for a central planning economy, does it sound familiar if you happen to be from one of communist countries?(I heard that quite often as I was born in one of communist countries, although if it is still communist are very debatable.) Central administration and central planning will require a large central administrative power with enforce body, Ripe NCC does not have the power either has the ability to enforce such thing, even it does have such power, history has told us such thing really doesn't work. Centralised resource planning only results corruption and less effective economy. The founder of Ripe community, Rob, alone with many other original starter Ripe community, said very wisely, "Ripe NCC are only a bookkeeper". and still till today I believe such fundamental value are very important to the very existence of RIR system, without claiming any power, therefore left RIPE NCC doing what it should be doing, be a registry and record resource whom using it, while protecting itself from any management/administration function(in which means power), so no government can come ask RIPE NCC to enforce anything, or even worse, seeking control of RIPE NCC. Please, leave RIPE NCC to be a simple book keeper and if you really wants to enforce something, go to your local government and propose a legislation, banning IPv4 transfer and ask big guy give you their unused IPv4 for example, just like the some government in history taken wealth from rich people give to the poor ones, they are the enforcing body, and they have the ability to re-distribute any resource they want. On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
* iODC Hostmaster [2016-02-17 15:18]:
Why it is bad to sell IP's?
Take a look at the RIPE market... Prices are INSANE, and RIPE is being maximum abused by "brokers" - that's why it is bad, that IP's can be sold, nevertheless it is the reason why it should not be possible to sell!
We had this discussion even before there *was* a transfer market. IPs WILL get transferred, money WILL be paid. The only thing that RIPE NCC did was to make it possible to document these transfers in the database. Before that there was chaos. There is practically NOTHING the NCC can do about the transfers happening. We had this discussions long ago. We saw it coming. People ignored IPv6. This is the result.
I'm so tired talking about this. IPv4 is over and done and because people ignored this for a decade we're forced to fight against other people trying to make money from the last pool that was explicitly created to allow newcomes to enter a market that ONLY exists because others decided they did not want to invest into IPv6.
Regards
Sebastian
-- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100
http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company
Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- -- Kind regards. Lu ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. **************************************************************************** Dit e-mailbericht is gecontroleerd op virussen. **************************************************************************** Sligro Food Group werkt aan een CO2-reductie van 20% in 2020. Wilt u meer weten over ons MVO-beleid en doelstellingen? Kijk op www.sligrofoodgroup.nl **************************************************************************** ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Why do you think this is A problem? If you have free space you need to share it not sell or rent This is Why there is too many accounts multiple Lots of company holding ip addresses more then they need!! Sony Xperia™ akıllı telefonumdan gönderildi ---- Olorin Henderson şunu yazdı ---- That isn't practical. What happens if an entity with an LIR account is purchased by another entity with an LIR account; they would have to merge or move IPs from one to another. Your proposed policy would prohibit this, therefore complicating or potentially prohibiting the sale and acquisition of web hosts. Kindest regards, -- Olorin Henderson, Operations Director, [Cloud Unboxed Limited] w: cloudunboxed.net<http://www.cloudunboxed.net/> | e: olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net<mailto:olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net> | t: +44 (0)33 0088 2444 Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressed individual or entity only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then discard this e-mail. Unauthorized copying, sharing and distributing of this e-mail is prohibited. The content in this e-mail does not necessarily represent the views of the company. The addressee should check all attachments for malware; the company makes no representation as regards the absence of malware in attachments to this e-mail. On 17/02/2016 15:18:41, Kampen, Niels van <nvkampen@sligro.nl> wrote: Shouldn't this problem be solved on a higher level (IANA)? Or create a workgroup open to the other RIR's as well so we can solve this globally? Finding a solution that doesn't mean a huge increase in administrative work for the NCC or making the request procedure almost impossible for new LIR's is not a solution. Could be as easy as making the initial /22 of a LIR non-transferable? If you want more IP space to rent/lease/sell you can buy additional space from the RIR or other brokers. Regards Niels -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Namens Lu Heng Verzonden: woensdag 17 februari 2016 15:43 Aan: Sebastian Wiesinger CC: members-discuss@ripe.net Onderwerp: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple Guys: take the wealth of rich people, distribute it amount everybody, and everybody get fair share and working for a central planning economy, does it sound familiar if you happen to be from one of communist countries?(I heard that quite often as I was born in one of communist countries, although if it is still communist are very debatable.) Central administration and central planning will require a large central administrative power with enforce body, Ripe NCC does not have the power either has the ability to enforce such thing, even it does have such power, history has told us such thing really doesn't work. Centralised resource planning only results corruption and less effective economy. The founder of Ripe community, Rob, alone with many other original starter Ripe community, said very wisely, "Ripe NCC are only a bookkeeper". and still till today I believe such fundamental value are very important to the very existence of RIR system, without claiming any power, therefore left RIPE NCC doing what it should be doing, be a registry and record resource whom using it, while protecting itself from any management/administration function(in which means power), so no government can come ask RIPE NCC to enforce anything, or even worse, seeking control of RIPE NCC. Please, leave RIPE NCC to be a simple book keeper and if you really wants to enforce something, go to your local government and propose a legislation, banning IPv4 transfer and ask big guy give you their unused IPv4 for example, just like the some government in history taken wealth from rich people give to the poor ones, they are the enforcing body, and they have the ability to re-distribute any resource they want. On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
* iODC Hostmaster [2016-02-17 15:18]:
Why it is bad to sell IP's?
Take a look at the RIPE market... Prices are INSANE, and RIPE is being maximum abused by "brokers" - that's why it is bad, that IP's can be sold, nevertheless it is the reason why it should not be possible to sell!
We had this discussion even before there *was* a transfer market. IPs WILL get transferred, money WILL be paid. The only thing that RIPE NCC did was to make it possible to document these transfers in the database. Before that there was chaos. There is practically NOTHING the NCC can do about the transfers happening. We had this discussions long ago. We saw it coming. People ignored IPv6. This is the result.
I'm so tired talking about this. IPv4 is over and done and because people ignored this for a decade we're forced to fight against other people trying to make money from the last pool that was explicitly created to allow newcomes to enter a market that ONLY exists because others decided they did not want to invest into IPv6.
Regards
Sebastian
-- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100
http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company
Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- -- Kind regards. Lu ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. **************************************************************************** Dit e-mailbericht is gecontroleerd op virussen. **************************************************************************** Sligro Food Group werkt aan een CO2-reductie van 20% in 2020. Wilt u meer weten over ons MVO-beleid en doelstellingen? Kijk op www.sligrofoodgroup.nl **************************************************************************** ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. [SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S. Logo]<http://https://www.spd.net.tr/> Cahit Eyigünlü SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S. +908508409773 75. Yl Mahallesi 5301 Sk No:24/A - MANSA 45100 [WebsiteGB]<http://https://www.spd.net.tr/> [email] <mailto:cahit.eyigunlu@spd.net.tr> [:inkedIn button] <http://https://www.linkedin.com/company/spdnet> [Twitter button] <https://twitter.com/NetSpd> [Facebook button] <https://www.facebook.com/SpdNetTR> Bu e-posta kişiye özel olup, gizli bilgiler içeriyor olabilir. Eğer bu e-posta size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa, içeriğini hiç bir şekilde kullanmayınız ve ekli dosyaları açmayınız. Bu e-posta virüslere karşı anti-virüs sistemleri tarafından taranmıştır. Ancak SPDNET, bu e-postanın - virüs koruma sistemleri ile kontrol ediliyor olsa bile - virüs içermediğini garanti etmez ve meydana gelebilecek zararlardan doğacak hiçbir sorumluluğu kabul etmez.
I agree ... Big Lir make alot of money to rent ipv4 space !!!! this problem must be resove !!! On 17-Feb-16 5:27 PM, Cahit Eyigünlü wrote:
Why do you think this is A problem? If you have free space you need to share it not sell or rent This is Why there is too many accounts multiple Lots of company holding ip addresses more then they need!!
Sony Xperia™ akıllı telefonumdan gönderildi
---- Olorin Henderson şunu yazdı ----
That isn't practical.
What happens if an entity with an LIR account is purchased by another entity with an LIR account; they would have to merge or move IPs from one to another. Your proposed policy would prohibit this, therefore complicating or potentially prohibiting the sale and acquisition of web hosts.
Kindest regards,
--
Olorin Henderson, Operations Director,
Cloud Unboxed Limited
*w:* cloudunboxed.net <http://www.cloudunboxed.net/> | *e:* olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net <mailto:olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net> | *t:* +44 (0)33 0088 2444
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
/This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressed individual or entity only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then discard this e-mail. Unauthorized copying, sharing and distributing of this e-mail is prohibited. The content in this e-mail does not necessarily represent the views of the company. The addressee should check all attachments for malware; the company makes no representation as regards the absence of malware in attachments to this e-mail./
On 17/02/2016 15:18:41, Kampen, Niels van <nvkampen@sligro.nl> wrote:
Shouldn't this problem be solved on a higher level (IANA)? Or create a workgroup open to the other RIR's as well so we can solve this globally? Finding a solution that doesn't mean a huge increase in administrative work for the NCC or making the request procedure almost impossible for new LIR's is not a solution. Could be as easy as making the initial /22 of a LIR non-transferable? If you want more IP space to rent/lease/sell you can buy additional space from the RIR or other brokers.
Regards Niels
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Namens Lu Heng Verzonden: woensdag 17 februari 2016 15:43 Aan: Sebastian Wiesinger CC: members-discuss@ripe.net Onderwerp: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
Guys:
take the wealth of rich people, distribute it amount everybody, and everybody get fair share and working for a central planning economy, does it sound familiar if you happen to be from one of communist countries?(I heard that quite often as I was born in one of communist countries, although if it is still communist are very debatable.)
Central administration and central planning will require a large central administrative power with enforce body, Ripe NCC does not have the power either has the ability to enforce such thing, even it does have such power, history has told us such thing really doesn't work. Centralised resource planning only results corruption and less effective economy.
The founder of Ripe community, Rob, alone with many other original starter Ripe community, said very wisely, "Ripe NCC are only a bookkeeper". and still till today I believe such fundamental value are very important to the very existence of RIR system, without claiming any power, therefore left RIPE NCC doing what it should be doing, be a registry and record resource whom using it, while protecting itself from any management/administration function(in which means power), so no government can come ask RIPE NCC to enforce anything, or even worse, seeking control of RIPE NCC.
Please, leave RIPE NCC to be a simple book keeper and if you really wants to enforce something, go to your local government and propose a legislation, banning IPv4 transfer and ask big guy give you their unused IPv4 for example, just like the some government in history taken wealth from rich people give to the poor ones, they are the enforcing body, and they have the ability to re-distribute any resource they want.
* iODC Hostmaster [2016-02-17 15:18]:
Why it is bad to sell IP's?
Take a look at the RIPE market... Prices are INSANE, and RIPE is being maximum abused by "brokers" - that's why it is bad, that IP's can be sold, nevertheless it is the reason why it should not be possible to sell!
We had this discussion even before there *was* a transfer market. IPs WILL get transferred, money WILL be paid. The only thing that RIPE NCC did was to make it possible to document these transfers in the database. Before that there was chaos. There is practically NOTHING the NCC can do about the transfers happening. We had this discussions long ago. We saw it coming. People ignored IPv6. This is the result.
I'm so tired talking about this. IPv4 is over and done and because people ignored this for a decade we're forced to fight against other people trying to make money from the last pool that was explicitly created to allow newcomes to enter a market that ONLY exists because others decided they did not want to invest into IPv6.
Regards
Sebastian
-- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100
http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company
Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to
On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote: the general page:
https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- -- Kind regards. Lu
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
****************************************************************************
Dit e-mailbericht is gecontroleerd op virussen. ****************************************************************************
Sligro Food Group werkt aan een CO2-reductie van 20% in 2020. Wilt u meer weten over ons MVO-beleid en doelstellingen? Kijk op www.sligrofoodgroup.nl ****************************************************************************
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S. Logo <http://https://www.spd.net.tr/>
*Cahit Eyigünlü* *SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S.* +908508409773 75. Yl Mahallesi 5301 Sk No:24/A - MANSA 45100 WebsiteGB <http://https://www.spd.net.tr/> email <mailto:cahit.eyigunlu@spd.net.tr> :inkedIn button <http://https://www.linkedin.com/company/spdnet> Twitter button <https://twitter.com/NetSpd> Facebook button <https://www.facebook.com/SpdNetTR>
Bu e-posta kişiye özel olup, gizli bilgiler içeriyor olabilir. Eğer bu e-posta size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa, içeriğini hiç bir şekilde kullanmayınız ve ekli dosyaları açmayınız. Bu e-posta virüslere karşı anti-virüs sistemleri tarafından taranmıştır. Ancak SPDNET, bu e-postanın - virüs koruma sistemleri ile kontrol ediliyor olsa bile - virüs içermediğini garanti etmez ve meydana gelebilecek zararlardan doğacak hiçbir sorumluluğu kabul etmez.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Jivko Jelev General Manager ITNS Global - Bulgaria T/F +359 2 49 66 555 US/T +1 4044001713 M +359 88 5555122,+359 87 8553844 e-mail: j.jelev@itnsglobal.eu
And probably they offer to Block multi accounts because they earn too much But we are paying for nembership not the ip addresses so they need to give back the ip addresses to ripe whatsapp they already never owned forever by theme Sony Xperia™ akıllı telefonumdan gönderildi ---- Jivko Jelev şunu yazdı ---- I agree ... Big Lir make alot of money to rent ipv4 space !!!! this problem must be resove !!! On 17-Feb-16 5:27 PM, Cahit Eyigünlü wrote: Why do you think this is A problem? If you have free space you need to share it not sell or rent This is Why there is too many accounts multiple Lots of company holding ip addresses more then they need!! Sony Xperia™ akıllı telefonumdan gönderildi ---- Olorin Henderson şunu yazdı ---- That isn't practical. What happens if an entity with an LIR account is purchased by another entity with an LIR account; they would have to merge or move IPs from one to another. Your proposed policy would prohibit this, therefore complicating or potentially prohibiting the sale and acquisition of web hosts. Kindest regards, -- Olorin Henderson, Operations Director, [Cloud Unboxed Limited] w: cloudunboxed.net<http://www.cloudunboxed.net/> | e: <mailto:olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net> olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net<mailto:olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net> | t: +44 (0)33 0088 2444 Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressed individual or entity only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then discard this e-mail. Unauthorized copying, sharing and distributing of this e-mail is prohibited. The content in this e-mail does not necessarily represent the views of the company. The addressee should check all attachments for malware; the company makes no representation as regards the absence of malware in attachments to this e-mail. On 17/02/2016 15:18:41, Kampen, Niels van <nvkampen@sligro.nl><mailto:nvkampen@sligro.nl> wrote: Shouldn't this problem be solved on a higher level (IANA)? Or create a workgroup open to the other RIR's as well so we can solve this globally? Finding a solution that doesn't mean a huge increase in administrative work for the NCC or making the request procedure almost impossible for new LIR's is not a solution. Could be as easy as making the initial /22 of a LIR non-transferable? If you want more IP space to rent/lease/sell you can buy additional space from the RIR or other brokers. Regards Niels -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Namens Lu Heng Verzonden: woensdag 17 februari 2016 15:43 Aan: Sebastian Wiesinger CC: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Onderwerp: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple Guys: take the wealth of rich people, distribute it amount everybody, and everybody get fair share and working for a central planning economy, does it sound familiar if you happen to be from one of communist countries?(I heard that quite often as I was born in one of communist countries, although if it is still communist are very debatable.) Central administration and central planning will require a large central administrative power with enforce body, Ripe NCC does not have the power either has the ability to enforce such thing, even it does have such power, history has told us such thing really doesn't work. Centralised resource planning only results corruption and less effective economy. The founder of Ripe community, Rob, alone with many other original starter Ripe community, said very wisely, "Ripe NCC are only a bookkeeper". and still till today I believe such fundamental value are very important to the very existence of RIR system, without claiming any power, therefore left RIPE NCC doing what it should be doing, be a registry and record resource whom using it, while protecting itself from any management/administration function(in which means power), so no government can come ask RIPE NCC to enforce anything, or even worse, seeking control of RIPE NCC. Please, leave RIPE NCC to be a simple book keeper and if you really wants to enforce something, go to your local government and propose a legislation, banning IPv4 transfer and ask big guy give you their unused IPv4 for example, just like the some government in history taken wealth from rich people give to the poor ones, they are the enforcing body, and they have the ability to re-distribute any resource they want. On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
* iODC Hostmaster [2016-02-17 15:18]:
Why it is bad to sell IP's?
Take a look at the RIPE market... Prices are INSANE, and RIPE is being maximum abused by "brokers" - that's why it is bad, that IP's can be sold, nevertheless it is the reason why it should not be possible to sell!
We had this discussion even before there *was* a transfer market. IPs WILL get transferred, money WILL be paid. The only thing that RIPE NCC did was to make it possible to document these transfers in the database. Before that there was chaos. There is practically NOTHING the NCC can do about the transfers happening. We had this discussions long ago. We saw it coming. People ignored IPv6. This is the result.
I'm so tired talking about this. IPv4 is over and done and because people ignored this for a decade we're forced to fight against other people trying to make money from the last pool that was explicitly created to allow newcomes to enter a market that ONLY exists because others decided they did not want to invest into IPv6.
Regards
Sebastian
-- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100
http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company
Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- -- Kind regards. Lu ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. **************************************************************************** Dit e-mailbericht is gecontroleerd op virussen. **************************************************************************** Sligro Food Group werkt aan een CO2-reductie van 20% in 2020. Wilt u meer weten over ons MVO-beleid en doelstellingen? Kijk op www.sligrofoodgroup.nl<http://www.sligrofoodgroup.nl> **************************************************************************** ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. [SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S. Logo]<http://https://www.spd.net.tr/> Cahit Eyigünlü SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S. +908508409773 75. Yl Mahallesi 5301 Sk No:24/A - MANSA 45100 [WebsiteGB]<http://https://www.spd.net.tr/> [email] <mailto:cahit.eyigunlu@spd.net.tr> [:inkedIn button] <http://https://www.linkedin.com/company/spdnet> [Twitter button] <https://twitter.com/NetSpd> [Facebook button] <https://www.facebook.com/SpdNetTR> Bu e-posta kişiye özel olup, gizli bilgiler içeriyor olabilir. Eğer bu e-posta size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa, içeriğini hiç bir şekilde kullanmayınız ve ekli dosyaları açmayınız. Bu e-posta virüslere karşı anti-virüs sistemleri tarafından taranmıştır. Ancak SPDNET, bu e-postanın - virüs koruma sistemleri ile kontrol ediliyor olsa bile - virüs içermediğini garanti etmez ve meydana gelebilecek zararlardan doğacak hiçbir sorumluluğu kabul etmez. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Jivko Jelev General Manager ITNS Global - Bulgaria T/F +359 2 49 66 555 US/T +1 4044001713 M +359 88 5555122,+359 87 8553844 e-mail: j.jelev@itnsglobal.eu<mailto:j.jelev@itnsglobal.eu> [SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S. Logo]<http://https://www.spd.net.tr/> Cahit Eyigünlü SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S. +908508409773 75. Yl Mahallesi 5301 Sk No:24/A - MANSA 45100 [WebsiteGB]<http://https://www.spd.net.tr/> [email] <mailto:cahit.eyigunlu@spd.net.tr> [:inkedIn button] <http://https://www.linkedin.com/company/spdnet> [Twitter button] <https://twitter.com/NetSpd> [Facebook button] <https://www.facebook.com/SpdNetTR> Bu e-posta kişiye özel olup, gizli bilgiler içeriyor olabilir. Eğer bu e-posta size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa, içeriğini hiç bir şekilde kullanmayınız ve ekli dosyaları açmayınız. Bu e-posta virüslere karşı anti-virüs sistemleri tarafından taranmıştır. Ancak SPDNET, bu e-postanın - virüs koruma sistemleri ile kontrol ediliyor olsa bile - virüs içermediğini garanti etmez ve meydana gelebilecek zararlardan doğacak hiçbir sorumluluğu kabul etmez.
I'm concerned about the direction this discussion is taking because it seems to be focusing on the behaviour of a tiny minority of members. The majority of us would welcome the ability to obtain another /22 or two for legitimate purposes. Any changes made to combat practices of a tiny minority of members may have unintended consequences for many and impact on small LIR's like mine. Think long and hard before legislating. Thanks Ian On 17/02/2016 15:34, Cahit Eyigünlü wrote:
And probably they offer to Block multi accounts because they earn too much
But we are paying for nembership not the ip addresses so they need to give back the ip addresses to ripe whatsapp they already never owned forever by theme
Sony Xperia™ akıllı telefonumdan gönderildi
---- Jivko Jelev şunu yazdı ----
I agree ... Big Lir make alot of money to rent ipv4 space !!!! this problem must be resove !!!
On 17-Feb-16 5:27 PM, Cahit Eyigünlü wrote:
Why do you think this is A problem? If you have free space you need to share it not sell or rent This is Why there is too many accounts multiple Lots of company holding ip addresses more then they need!!
Sony Xperia™ akıllı telefonumdan gönderildi
---- Olorin Henderson şunu yazdı ----
That isn't practical.
What happens if an entity with an LIR account is purchased by another entity with an LIR account; they would have to merge or move IPs from one to another. Your proposed policy would prohibit this, therefore complicating or potentially prohibiting the sale and acquisition of web hosts.
Kindest regards,
--
Olorin Henderson, Operations Director,
Cloud Unboxed Limited
*w:* cloudunboxed.net <http://www.cloudunboxed.net/> | *e:* <mailto:olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net>olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net | *t:* +44 (0)33 0088 2444
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
/This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressed individual or entity only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then discard this e-mail. Unauthorized copying, sharing and distributing of this e-mail is prohibited. The content in this e-mail does not necessarily represent the views of the company. The addressee should check all attachments for malware; the company makes no representation as regards the absence of malware in attachments to this e-mail./
On 17/02/2016 15:18:41, Kampen, Niels van <nvkampen@sligro.nl> wrote:
Shouldn't this problem be solved on a higher level (IANA)? Or create a workgroup open to the other RIR's as well so we can solve this globally? Finding a solution that doesn't mean a huge increase in administrative work for the NCC or making the request procedure almost impossible for new LIR's is not a solution. Could be as easy as making the initial /22 of a LIR non-transferable? If you want more IP space to rent/lease/sell you can buy additional space from the RIR or other brokers.
Regards Niels
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Namens Lu Heng Verzonden: woensdag 17 februari 2016 15:43 Aan: Sebastian Wiesinger CC: members-discuss@ripe.net Onderwerp: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
Guys:
take the wealth of rich people, distribute it amount everybody, and everybody get fair share and working for a central planning economy, does it sound familiar if you happen to be from one of communist countries?(I heard that quite often as I was born in one of communist countries, although if it is still communist are very debatable.)
Central administration and central planning will require a large central administrative power with enforce body, Ripe NCC does not have the power either has the ability to enforce such thing, even it does have such power, history has told us such thing really doesn't work. Centralised resource planning only results corruption and less effective economy.
The founder of Ripe community, Rob, alone with many other original starter Ripe community, said very wisely, "Ripe NCC are only a bookkeeper". and still till today I believe such fundamental value are very important to the very existence of RIR system, without claiming any power, therefore left RIPE NCC doing what it should be doing, be a registry and record resource whom using it, while protecting itself from any management/administration function(in which means power), so no government can come ask RIPE NCC to enforce anything, or even worse, seeking control of RIPE NCC.
Please, leave RIPE NCC to be a simple book keeper and if you really wants to enforce something, go to your local government and propose a legislation, banning IPv4 transfer and ask big guy give you their unused IPv4 for example, just like the some government in history taken wealth from rich people give to the poor ones, they are the enforcing body, and they have the ability to re-distribute any resource they want.
* iODC Hostmaster [2016-02-17 15:18]:
Why it is bad to sell IP's?
Take a look at the RIPE market... Prices are INSANE, and RIPE is being maximum abused by "brokers" - that's why it is bad, that IP's can be sold, nevertheless it is the reason why it should not be possible to sell!
We had this discussion even before there *was* a transfer market. IPs WILL get transferred, money WILL be paid. The only thing that RIPE NCC did was to make it possible to document these transfers in the database. Before that there was chaos. There is practically NOTHING the NCC can do about the transfers happening. We had this discussions long ago. We saw it coming. People ignored IPv6. This is the result.
I'm so tired talking about this. IPv4 is over and done and because people ignored this for a decade we're forced to fight against other people trying to make money from the last pool that was explicitly created to allow newcomes to enter a market that ONLY exists because others decided they did not want to invest into IPv6.
Regards
Sebastian
-- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100
http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company
Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
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-- -- Kind regards. Lu
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
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****************************************************************************
Dit e-mailbericht is gecontroleerd op virussen. ****************************************************************************
Sligro Food Group werkt aan een CO2-reductie van 20% in 2020. Wilt u meer weten over ons MVO-beleid en doelstellingen? Kijk op www.sligrofoodgroup.nl ****************************************************************************
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*Cahit Eyigünlü* *SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S.* +908508409773 75. Yl Mahallesi 5301 Sk No:24/A - MANSA 45100 WebsiteGB <http://https://www.spd.net.tr/> email <mailto:cahit.eyigunlu@spd.net.tr> :inkedIn button <http://https://www.linkedin.com/company/spdnet> Twitter button <https://twitter.com/NetSpd> Facebook button <https://www.facebook.com/SpdNetTR>
Bu e-posta kişiye özel olup, gizli bilgiler içeriyor olabilir. Eğer bu e-posta size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa, içeriğini hiç bir şekilde kullanmayınız ve ekli dosyaları açmayınız. Bu e-posta virüslere karşı anti-virüs sistemleri tarafından taranmıştır. Ancak SPDNET, bu e-postanın - virüs koruma sistemleri ile kontrol ediliyor olsa bile - virüs içermediğini garanti etmez ve meydana gelebilecek zararlardan doğacak hiçbir sorumluluğu kabul etmez.
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-- Jivko Jelev
General Manager ITNS Global - Bulgaria T/F +359 2 49 66 555 US/T +1 4044001713 M +359 88 5555122,+359 87 8553844 e-mail:j.jelev@itnsglobal.eu SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S. Logo <http://https://www.spd.net.tr/>
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Bu e-posta kişiye özel olup, gizli bilgiler içeriyor olabilir. Eğer bu e-posta size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa, içeriğini hiç bir şekilde kullanmayınız ve ekli dosyaları açmayınız. Bu e-posta virüslere karşı anti-virüs sistemleri tarafından taranmıştır. Ancak SPDNET, bu e-postanın - virüs koruma sistemleri ile kontrol ediliyor olsa bile - virüs içermediğini garanti etmez ve meydana gelebilecek zararlardan doğacak hiçbir sorumluluğu kabul etmez.
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* Ian Smith <ian@lothianbroadband.com> [2016-02-18 13:07]:
I'm concerned about the direction this discussion is taking because it seems to be focusing on the behaviour of a tiny minority of members. The majority of us would welcome the ability to obtain another /22 or two for legitimate purposes.
But that is not the intention of the policy. You get one /22 so that others can get one too. I'm sure everyone would welcome the ability to get more IPv4 but we're all out. It's over. Move on.
Any changes made to combat practices of a tiny minority of members may have unintended consequences for many and impact on small LIR's like mine.
Which unintended consequences are there? All consequences that I've heard about are absolutely intentional. (Do not let people receive more than one /22). Regards Sebastian -- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100 http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
Before getting to that, could we know what is the new-LIR opening rate those days, so how many /22 will be required in the next 3 years ? David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr <mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr> tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34 Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr <blocked::http://www.ipeva.fr/> - www.ipeva-studio.com <blocked::http://www.ipeva-studio.com/> Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur.
Le 18 févr. 2016 à 13:16, Sebastian Wiesinger <sebastian.wiesinger@noris.net> a écrit :
* Ian Smith <ian@lothianbroadband.com> [2016-02-18 13:07]:
I'm concerned about the direction this discussion is taking because it seems to be focusing on the behaviour of a tiny minority of members. The majority of us would welcome the ability to obtain another /22 or two for legitimate purposes.
But that is not the intention of the policy. You get one /22 so that others can get one too. I'm sure everyone would welcome the ability to get more IPv4 but we're all out. It's over. Move on.
Any changes made to combat practices of a tiny minority of members may have unintended consequences for many and impact on small LIR's like mine.
Which unintended consequences are there? All consequences that I've heard about are absolutely intentional. (Do not let people receive more than one /22).
Regards
Sebastian
-- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100
http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company
Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Hello,
On 17.02.2016, at 16:58, Ian Smith <ian@lothianbroadband.com> wrote:
I'm concerned about the direction this discussion is taking because it seems to be focusing on the behaviour of a tiny minority of members. The majority of us would welcome the ability to obtain another /22 or two for legitimate purposes.
Any changes made to combat practices of a tiny minority of members may have unintended consequences for many and impact on small LIR's like mine.
Thanks for your voice, the small LIRs did loose already in the introduction of flat fees, now they have no chance to pull such a scheme (opening more LIRs). Larger LIRs could argue about a real devision of them starting to giving out (new) IPs, as they could, and they would get some. But the problem still exists, that you could open another business, and open more LIRs, as long as there is somebody paying for access to IP addresses. In the long run, only the big pockets have new IPs. Maybe we need another “last /12” policy, to slow down adoption of IPs. Matthias
PLEASE REMOVE THIS EMAIL from this discussion!!! PLEASE!! Thank you! Akema Ramsey | Accounting Assistant | WorkForce Software | P: (248) 415-1094 Ext. 724 | aramsey@workforcesoftware.com<mailto:aramsey@workforcesoftware.com> Global Workforce Management [cid:59CEB05B-20FF-4706-B02B-A091FF4EB913] From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Cahit Eyigünlü Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 10:28 AM To: Kampen, Niels van <nvkampen@sligro.nl>; members-discuss@ripe.net; Olorin Henderson <olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net> Subject: [members-discuss] YNT: Re: [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple Why do you think this is A problem? If you have free space you need to share it not sell or rent This is Why there is too many accounts multiple Lots of company holding ip addresses more then they need!! Sony Xperia(tm) akıllı telefonumdan gönderildi ---- Olorin Henderson şunu yazdı ---- That isn't practical. What happens if an entity with an LIR account is purchased by another entity with an LIR account; they would have to merge or move IPs from one to another. Your proposed policy would prohibit this, therefore complicating or potentially prohibiting the sale and acquisition of web hosts. Kindest regards, -- Olorin Henderson, Operations Director, [Image removed by sender. Cloud Unboxed Limited] w: cloudunboxed.net<http://www.cloudunboxed.net/> | e: olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net<mailto:olorin.henderson@cloudunboxed.net> | t: +44 (0)33 0088 2444 Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressed individual or entity only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then discard this e-mail. Unauthorized copying, sharing and distributing of this e-mail is prohibited. The content in this e-mail does not necessarily represent the views of the company. The addressee should check all attachments for malware; the company makes no representation as regards the absence of malware in attachments to this e-mail. On 17/02/2016 15:18:41, Kampen, Niels van <nvkampen@sligro.nl> wrote: Shouldn't this problem be solved on a higher level (IANA)? Or create a workgroup open to the other RIR's as well so we can solve this globally? Finding a solution that doesn't mean a huge increase in administrative work for the NCC or making the request procedure almost impossible for new LIR's is not a solution. Could be as easy as making the initial /22 of a LIR non-transferable? If you want more IP space to rent/lease/sell you can buy additional space from the RIR or other brokers. Regards Niels -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Namens Lu Heng Verzonden: woensdag 17 februari 2016 15:43 Aan: Sebastian Wiesinger CC: members-discuss@ripe.net Onderwerp: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple Guys: take the wealth of rich people, distribute it amount everybody, and everybody get fair share and working for a central planning economy, does it sound familiar if you happen to be from one of communist countries?(I heard that quite often as I was born in one of communist countries, although if it is still communist are very debatable.) Central administration and central planning will require a large central administrative power with enforce body, Ripe NCC does not have the power either has the ability to enforce such thing, even it does have such power, history has told us such thing really doesn't work. Centralised resource planning only results corruption and less effective economy. The founder of Ripe community, Rob, alone with many other original starter Ripe community, said very wisely, "Ripe NCC are only a bookkeeper". and still till today I believe such fundamental value are very important to the very existence of RIR system, without claiming any power, therefore left RIPE NCC doing what it should be doing, be a registry and record resource whom using it, while protecting itself from any management/administration function(in which means power), so no government can come ask RIPE NCC to enforce anything, or even worse, seeking control of RIPE NCC. Please, leave RIPE NCC to be a simple book keeper and if you really wants to enforce something, go to your local government and propose a legislation, banning IPv4 transfer and ask big guy give you their unused IPv4 for example, just like the some government in history taken wealth from rich people give to the poor ones, they are the enforcing body, and they have the ability to re-distribute any resource they want. On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
* iODC Hostmaster [2016-02-17 15:18]:
Why it is bad to sell IP's?
Take a look at the RIPE market... Prices are INSANE, and RIPE is being maximum abused by "brokers" - that's why it is bad, that IP's can be sold, nevertheless it is the reason why it should not be possible to sell!
We had this discussion even before there *was* a transfer market. IPs WILL get transferred, money WILL be paid. The only thing that RIPE NCC did was to make it possible to document these transfers in the database. Before that there was chaos. There is practically NOTHING the NCC can do about the transfers happening. We had this discussions long ago. We saw it coming. People ignored IPv6. This is the result.
I'm so tired talking about this. IPv4 is over and done and because people ignored this for a decade we're forced to fight against other people trying to make money from the last pool that was explicitly created to allow newcomes to enter a market that ONLY exists because others decided they did not want to invest into IPv6.
Regards
Sebastian
-- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100
http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company
Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- -- Kind regards. Lu ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. **************************************************************************** Dit e-mailbericht is gecontroleerd op virussen. **************************************************************************** Sligro Food Group werkt aan een CO2-reductie van 20% in 2020. Wilt u meer weten over ons MVO-beleid en doelstellingen? Kijk op www.sligrofoodgroup.nl **************************************************************************** ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. [Image removed by sender. SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S. Logo]<http://https:/www.spd.net.tr/> Cahit Eyigünlü SPDNet Telekomünikasyon A.S. +908508409773 75. Yl Mahallesi 5301 Sk No:24/A - MANSA 45100 [Image removed by sender. WebsiteGB]<http://https:/www.spd.net.tr/> [Image removed by sender. email] <mailto:cahit.eyigunlu@spd.net.tr> [Image removed by sender. :inkedIn button] <http://https:/www.linkedin.com/company/spdnet> [Image removed by sender. Twitter button] <https://twitter.com/NetSpd> [Image removed by sender. Facebook button] <https://www.facebook.com/SpdNetTR> Bu e-posta kişiye özel olup, gizli bilgiler içeriyor olabilir. Eğer bu e-posta size yanlışlıkla ulaşmışsa, içeriğini hiç bir şekilde kullanmayınız ve ekli dosyaları açmayınız. Bu e-posta virüslere karşı anti-virüs sistemleri tarafından taranmıştır. Ancak SPDNET, bu e-postanın - virüs koruma sistemleri ile kontrol ediliyor olsa bile - virüs içermediğini garanti etmez ve meydana gelebilecek zararlardan doğacak hiçbir sorumluluğu kabul etmez. This message is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This communication may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you are not the named addressee, or have been inadvertently and erroneously referenced in the address line, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this message or any part of it. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete all copies of the message. (ID m031214)
Hello Olorin, Le 17/02/2016 16:21, Olorin Henderson a écrit :
Your proposed policy would prohibit this, therefore complicating or potentially prohibiting the sale
Such policy could be easily mitigated if the acquiring party provides proofs of its ability to move every host to dual-stack connectivity, and/or optimize scarce adressing plan's usage. I see no downside here, unless you consider the byuing LIR as unable to do its job. Best regards, -- Jérôme Nicolle +33 6 19 31 27 14
Hi Niels, Le 17/02/2016 16:17, Kampen, Niels van a écrit :
Could be as easy as making the initial /22 of a LIR non-transferable?
This is one of the smartest things i've read all day, thank you for that. I do agree that the initial /22 assigned to a new LIR should not be allowed for transfer, no matter the context (merge ?). We'll all be better off if the acquisition of a new /22 to be re-integrated into an existing LIR's pool should be more expensive thanit's facial market value. So let's forbid new LIRs from transfer before, well, at least 5 years, that should help with regulating this mess. Best regards, -- Jérôme Nicolle +33 6 19 31 27 14
On 18 Feb 2016, at 0:45, Jérôme Nicolle <jerome@ceriz.fr> wrote:
I do agree that the initial /22 assigned to a new LIR should not be allowed for transfer, no matter the context (merge ?).
So then new LIR’s will be ‘leasing’ the resources off the record to new clients/partners and just hold on to the LIR and the LIR resources. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Arjan van der Oest Lead Mobile Engineer Voiceworks BV - Oplagestraat 1 - 1321 NK Almere Mobile : +31 6 8686 0000 Office : +31 36 7606656 GPG key on http://keyserver.pgp.com/ Key fingerprint = C58F 55CA C62A 5A49 15E0 2271 3481 6020 997E EE99
Jerome, How do you make the difference between a LIR transferring a /22 to another LIR for money, and a LIR really merging with another LIR ? You would have to ask for papers about the merger and to know the M&A contractual aspects of each country in Europe. David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone@ipeva.fr <mailto:david.ponzone@ipeva.fr> tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34 Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr <blocked::http://www.ipeva.fr/> - www.ipeva-studio.com <blocked::http://www.ipeva-studio.com/> Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur.
Le 18 févr. 2016 à 00:45, Jérôme Nicolle <jerome@ceriz.fr> a écrit :
Hi Niels,
Le 17/02/2016 16:17, Kampen, Niels van a écrit :
Could be as easy as making the initial /22 of a LIR non-transferable?
This is one of the smartest things i've read all day, thank you for that.
I do agree that the initial /22 assigned to a new LIR should not be allowed for transfer, no matter the context (merge ?).
We'll all be better off if the acquisition of a new /22 to be re-integrated into an existing LIR's pool should be more expensive thanit's facial market value.
So let's forbid new LIRs from transfer before, well, at least 5 years, that should help with regulating this mess.
Best regards,
-- Jérôme Nicolle +33 6 19 31 27 14
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Le 17/02/2016 16:17, Kampen, Niels van a écrit :
Could be as easy as making the initial /22 of a LIR non-transferable?
This is one of the smartest things i've read all day, thank you for that.
I do agree that the initial /22 assigned to a new LIR should not be allowed for transfer, no matter the context (merge ?).
We'll all be better off if the acquisition of a new /22 to be re-integrated into an existing LIR's pool should be more expensive thanit's facial market value.
So let's forbid new LIRs from transfer before, well, at least 5 years, that should help with regulating this mess.
We've gone through an acquisition a while back and I'm trying to change the name on our LIR. The RIPE NCC currently has the tendency to shift anything like this that isn't the most simple type of name change imaginable onto the Transfer Policy pile. Given the number of hoops I'm forced to jump through for what isn't really that complicated, I'm seriously considering canceling my name change ticket and just waiting until the 24 months on my /22 expires so I can just do a transfer to get all my resources renamed. Before we go down the path of extending the non-transfer period, I would like to see the RIPE NCC clean up its processes with regards to name changes. Alex Le Heux Rakuten Kobo Inc
On 18.02.2016, at 00:45, Jérôme Nicolle <jerome@ceriz.fr> wrote:
...
So let's forbid new LIRs from transfer before, well, at least 5 years, that should help with regulating this mess. Nobody needs to transfer, it is only convenient to save the LIR cost. If the LIR cost is covered, you can open as many LIRs in separate companies. The problem isn’t the transfer, as you could run multiple LIRs from one office, the problem is, that it is not affordable for new ISPs, but last /8 was exactly targeted on *new* operations, not old operations trying to get more addresses.
Matthias
Hello again, I really don`t understand. Like i said yesterday. It`s quite simple. If someone opens a lir and he cannot transfer/merge/sell the lir without loosing the /22 in just 2 years it will be more expensive to keep the new lir then to aquire the address space from the market. Everyone will do the math before opening a new lir. So the problem will go away! Only new companies in need of address space will open new lir`s. The people who actuality are in need to get address space. I will do the math again for anyone who got lost in the unsubscribe wave. /22 on the market is around 5000 usd New lir setup fee is 2000 + 1400 yearly membership = 3400 if we add an extra year it will be 4800 which is the price on the market. Bounding the life of the /22 to the life of the lir it seems to me like the only real solution and the easiest. Best regards, Claudiu Foleanu TENNET TELECOM -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Matthias Šubik Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 6:06 PM To: Jérôme Nicolle Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
On 18.02.2016, at 00:45, Jérôme Nicolle <jerome@ceriz.fr> wrote:
...
So let's forbid new LIRs from transfer before, well, at least 5 years, that should help with regulating this mess. Nobody needs to transfer, it is only convenient to save the LIR cost. If the LIR cost is covered, you can open as many LIRs in separate companies. The problem isn’t the transfer, as you could run multiple LIRs from one office, the problem is, that it is not affordable for new ISPs, but last /8 was exactly targeted on *new* operations, not old operations trying to get more addresses.
Matthias ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Hello,
On 17.02.2016, at 15:43, Lu Heng <h.lu@anytimechinese.com> wrote:
Guys:
take the wealth of rich people, distribute it amount everybody, and everybody get fair share and working for a central planning economy, does it sound familiar if you happen to be from one of communist countries?(I heard that quite often as I was born in one of communist countries, although if it is still communist are very debatable.)
this is not the point. The point is, that the current situation is hindering IPv6 adoption, as exactly the players that could invest in v6 are investing in v4. So we want to direct this energy into the conversion towards IPv6. The notion of rich and poor was introduced that the current situation, or any regulated situation, might make a different impact in the different parts of the RIPE NCC service region. There are countries that can afford buying new equipment, or extra address space, and some don’t. This would enlarge the digital divide even further, and this can’t be in any interest of a common internet. And RIPE NCC isn’t just a bookkeeper, otherwise there would never have been a distribution policy. RIPE NCC polices address usage, and therefor distribution. Any situation with a central authority could be described as centrally planned economy, but it isn’t. It is just the establishment of order through a common administrative body. Matthias
Hi again, No it`s not bad to sell ip`s. It`s bad that the people are abusing the system. It`s bad that small companies that had a /22 a /24 etc.. have the resources allocated taken away, and sold for profit. If you are seeking profit this will not seem bad, but it`s not correct. As i said we should try to distribute resources to everyone in order to improve communication not just to companies with big budgets. Like i already said the /22 should be tight together with the life of the lir then the problem should go away. Just modify the policy to say that the /22 allocated from the last /8 is to be returned to ripe if the lir is merged/sold/dissolved and it cannot be sold. I can assure you that no new lir`s will be opened in order the get additional space and try to sell it. Let`s make a simple calculation. 1 x /22 on the market is around 5000 usd. Lir fee per year is 1400 + 2000 sign-up fee so we have a total of 3400. After the first year of life this will be more then the price on the open market. If they cannot sell the /22, the profit will go away and only people really needing the space will open new lir`s. You should also take into consideration that the open market has allowed spammers to obtain huge amounts of ipv4 addresses! Best regards, Claudiu Foleanu TENNET TELECOM ASOCIATIA INTERLAN -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Aleksey Bulgakov Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 3:50 PM To: Thomas Mangin; members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple What is bad to sell IPs? You tell the same, if someone buy some gold or oil and burn it to increase the price and make prifit, but the Members are still receiving the IPs. What is the difference will they receive IPs from the RIPE NCC directly or anyone will sell it? ----- Best regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO Tel.: +7 926 6908729 17.02.2016, 16:38, "Thomas Mangin" <thomas.mangin@exa-networks.co.uk>:
Hi,
So .. replying to myself :wink:
Proposed solution:
You make a new lir to get a /22 ok, then you cannot sell the ip address space. If the lir is for whatever reason closed the ip address space should be requested back. Nobody will create a new lir for a /22 and pay the fees required if the address space given it`s tied to that lir, it will just be to expensive.
I would love to live in a world where this solution works.
When you forbid a product which has customer (buying IP space, drugs, other) all you are doing is moving the problem to an un-regulated market where the buyer (the innocent network who NEEDS the IP space and is down the wall) is going to be abused (US prohibition / war on drugs).
While I morally totally agree with the principle, I can not see how it can be applied in a way which does not create more problems than it fixes.
Thomas
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Hello, I think IP addresses as like radio frequencies (spectrum), it's limited. You can't own/hold frequencies without using that, you need to give back to national organisation what manages that, to allocate new companies, and you can't sell that also. Why RIPE/ARIN/etc can't do this with IPv4 addresses? I not really see the difference. *Köszönettel:* Csárdi-Braunstein János *Email:* info@mikrovps.hu *Telefon:* +3694200210 [image: facebook] <https://www.facebook.com/Mikrovps> [image: twitter] <https://twitter.com/MikroVPS> [image: google plus] <https://plus.google.com/+MikrovpsHu> [image: linkedin] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/mikrovps> 2016-02-17 14:50 GMT+01:00 Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksey@fast-telecom.net>:
What is bad to sell IPs? You tell the same, if someone buy some gold or oil and burn it to increase the price and make prifit, but the Members are still receiving the IPs. What is the difference will they receive IPs from the RIPE NCC directly or anyone will sell it?
----- Best regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO Tel.: +7 926 6908729
17.02.2016, 16:38, "Thomas Mangin" <thomas.mangin@exa-networks.co.uk>:
Hi,
So .. replying to myself :wink:
Proposed solution:
You make a new lir to get a /22 ok, then you cannot sell the ip address space. If the lir is for whatever reason closed the ip address space should be requested back. Nobody will create a new lir for a /22 and pay the fees required if the address space given it`s tied to that lir, it will just be to expensive.
I would love to live in a world where this solution works.
When you forbid a product which has customer (buying IP space, drugs, other) all you are doing is moving the problem to an un-regulated market where the buyer (the innocent network who NEEDS the IP space and is down the wall) is going to be abused (US prohibition / war on drugs).
While I morally totally agree with the principle, I can not see how it can be applied in a way which does not create more problems than it fixes.
Thomas
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On 17 Feb 2016, at 17:17, MikroVPS wrote:
I think IP addresses as like radio frequencies (spectrum), it's limited. You can't own/hold frequencies without using that, you need to give back to national organisation what manages that, to allocate new companies, and you can't sell that also. Why RIPE/ARIN/etc can't do this with IPv4 addresses? I not really see the difference.
I can understand your line of thought but this analogy does not work. Governments can impose laws on their businesses, the RIPE NCC can not. Also most frequencies are SOLD at GREAT VALUE to Telcos - funding governments - when thanks to the RIPE NCC model, IPs are nearly free. So unless you are suggesting that IP address management should be governed by the ITU - and I for one does not - the RIPE NCC can only bind LIR by contractual laws .. and trying to enforce it internationally would sure be painful to watch. Thomas
In this analogy RIPE need to handle that. I think not a good think if old/big telcos/ISP's are holding many ipv4 address, because they can. This also not helping to incraise IPv6 penetration, especially for end users (costumer internet connections, etc). (by the way, also i don't think it is normal, some old organisation/companys in US holding /8, because back in the '90's when they received ipv4 exhausing doesnt matter) *Köszönettel:* Csárdi-Braunstein János *Email:* info@mikrovps.hu *Telefon:* +3694200210 [image: facebook] <https://www.facebook.com/Mikrovps> [image: twitter] <https://twitter.com/MikroVPS> [image: google plus] <https://plus.google.com/+MikrovpsHu> [image: linkedin] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/mikrovps> 2016-02-17 19:37 GMT+01:00 Thomas Mangin <thomas.mangin@exa-networks.co.uk>:
On 17 Feb 2016, at 17:17, MikroVPS wrote:
I think IP addresses as like radio frequencies (spectrum), it's limited.
You can't own/hold frequencies without using that, you need to give back to national organisation what manages that, to allocate new companies, and you can't sell that also. Why RIPE/ARIN/etc can't do this with IPv4 addresses? I not really see the difference.
I can understand your line of thought but this analogy does not work. Governments can impose laws on their businesses, the RIPE NCC can not. Also most frequencies are SOLD at GREAT VALUE to Telcos - funding governments - when thanks to the RIPE NCC model, IPs are nearly free.
So unless you are suggesting that IP address management should be governed by the ITU - and I for one does not - the RIPE NCC can only bind LIR by contractual laws .. and trying to enforce it internationally would sure be painful to watch.
Thomas
On 17 Feb 2016, at 18:17, MikroVPS <info@mikrovps.hu> wrote:
You can't own/hold frequencies without using that
Yes you can. You only can’t do this when you got told at forehand when you acquired the spectrum license you are obliged to deploy the spectrum within a certain timeframe. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Arjan van der Oest Lead Mobile Engineer Voiceworks BV - Oplagestraat 1 - 1321 NK Almere Mobile : +31 6 8686 0000 Office : +31 36 7606656 GPG key on http://keyserver.pgp.com/ Key fingerprint = C58F 55CA C62A 5A49 15E0 2271 3481 6020 997E EE99
participants (18)
-
Accounts Payable - WorkForce Software -
Aleksey Bulgakov -
Alex Le Heux -
Arjan van der Oest -
Cahit Eyigünlü -
Claudiu Foleanu -
David Ponzone -
Ian Smith -
iODC Hostmaster -
Jivko Jelev -
Jérôme Nicolle -
Kampen, Niels van -
Lu Heng -
Matthias Šubik -
MikroVPS -
Olorin Henderson -
Sebastian Wiesinger -
Thomas Mangin