Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
You didn't fully read my initial post, the MTU with IPv4+ will not be a fixed MTU of 1500 or of any other fixed value, it will be set in the beginning of the connection through a process called: "IPv4+ UDP Handshake" Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Tobias Lehner Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:51 AM To: Elad Cohen; 'noc'; Ed Campbell Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: AW: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world You cannot be sure to have MTU of 1500 everywhere… Normally routers should not do anything with df bit, but it is possible to flip the df bit on the router. It is required for some cases. Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards Tobias Lehner Hartl-EDV GmbH & Co. KG Von: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io> Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. April 2020 09:48 An: Tobias Lehner <tl@hartl-edv.de>; 'noc' <noc@xervers.pt>; Ed Campbell <campbell@inca.ie> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Tobias, Routers will not do anything with the DF and MF flags as long that MTU is fine (and MTU is initially checked with "IPv4+ UDP Handshake") I wrote in previous reply an adjustment to the idea that is quicker to deploy and will not require the routers, but it will lack the RIRs being able to allocate and to assign IPv4+ addresses to LIRs. Each LIR will automatically receive an additional IPv4 address for each current IPv4 address that it have: -------- Here is an optional adjustment to the idea: Only end-users and servers operating systems will be updated (using the operating systems automatic updating mechanism), using the same way that I wrote with the exact same feasible IPv4 packet modification implementation (reserved bit, no fragmentation, fragmentation flags, udp handshake), no other equipment will need to be updated, no routers will need to be updated at all - but then the routing of IPv4+ addresses will always be to the same destination device that have the same four bytes of destination IPv4 address (meaning routing will be as it is now - based on IPv4 and not on IPv4+). In this way, the number of IPv4 addresses will be doubled and each ASN will double his number of IPv4 addresses, each ASN will have his exact same ip addresses but in two formats - in IPv4 format and in IPv4+ format. (if the community is lazy and don't want to upgrade the needed routers by IT professionals, and it is not the whole routers in the world, far far far less) -------- Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Tobias Lehner Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:43 AM To: 'noc'; Elad Cohen; Ed Campbell Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: AW: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi, Furthermore, every router in the connection can/may add/remove the df bit, which breaks your idea. We should really go in the direction of IPv6. Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards Tobias Lehner Hartl-EDV GmbH & Co. KG Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> Im Auftrag von noc Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. April 2020 09:23 An: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; Ed Campbell <campbell@inca.ie<mailto:campbell@inca.ie>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hello Elad. I've been reading all the messages you sent. I see that you try hard to push your vision. But here's some reasons to what you suggest doesn't work and will never work: - the extra 2 bits you suggest to use (fragmentation bits) are there for a reason. And that reason is not to have more ips, but to fragment packets when needed. On a perfect worldwide network, they aren't needed. But we are on a imperfect worldwide network and many systems need packet fragmentation to work (satellite systems by example). - it's not possible to upgrade millions of routers. Many reached end-of-life many years ago. If the ISP switch the router, he will deploy right away ipv6. - IPv4+ will not give more time to deploy IPv6. It will only delay it. Everyone is lazy for different reasons. So, if IPv4 works, why deploy IPv6? No. It's been since 2012 that we (RIPE) announced the exhaustion of IPv4. And very few has been done to push IPv6. - enterprises like Microsoft will earn a lot more of IPv4+ if they implement it... Why will they bother? They already have 2 /8 legacy not being used/routed. And this is the same for a lot other companies. Many already invested a lot on IPv6, will they do new investments for IPv4+ knowing that is a dead end? No. - IPv4+ is easy to implement. Wrong. It's hard. It will need to be implemented on each level till the top (IANA), and I doubt the very top will do anything to change this. Looking at the statistics everywhere, I see that IPv6 implementation his growing a lot since September. And this, yes. It's a good news. Your idea should've be pushed 15 years ago (before the running out announcement), not now. Now there is nothing it can be done. Cheers Enviado a partir do meu smartphone Samsung Galaxy. -------- Mensagem original -------- De : Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>> Data: 26/04/20 00:54 (GMT+01:00) Para: Ed Campbell <campbell@inca.ie<mailto:campbell@inca.ie>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Assunto: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Indeed demand is rising, but I don't believe that the world will use more than 4 billion new IPv4 addresses in 5 years, it will not happen, the RIRs already have very strict policies that will continue to be used, IPv4+ will not end fast - it will provide many many years that in them migration to IPv6 will be able to be completed quietly. (without the world to be in any problem) The only reason that IPv4 exhausted recently is because companies from all over the world were told that IPv4 is about to end (and this was the brainwash) so they opened LIR accounts like crazy just to get the last /22's - this is the only reason. And people that are doing money out of it. But if each RIR will have 800+ new million ip addresses and the RIRs will use strict policies to provide them and there will not be a shortage and the public will know that there isn't a shortage of IPv4 - then you will see that companies will not open LIR accounts like crazy just to get the last IPv4 addresses. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Ed Campbell <campbell@inca.ie<mailto:campbell@inca.ie>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:39 AM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>> Cc: Torbjörn Eklöv <torbjorn.eklov@interlan.se<mailto:torbjorn.eklov@interlan.se>>; members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world IPv6 isn’t slow because of the lack of trying, it is slow because of Microsoft et al’s unwillingness to adopt it. If it became the default IP stack to use on all operating systems rather than a “nice to have” “feature” attitudes would change. 3-4 times you have said now that it would take another 25 years to exhaust this “new” IPv4 space, that just doesn’t track with the current demand for addressing. You’d only be delaying and thwarting existing efforts to deploy IPv6. Sent from my iPhone On 25 Apr 2020, at 22:34, Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>> wrote: Torbjorn, IPv6 cannot communicate directly with IPv4, while IPv4+ can communicate directly with IPv4. Technicians don't have to know anything about IPv4+ (and not to know how it internally works) besides to know how to upgrade the firmware of a router and how to update a patch to an operating system, in contrary to IPv6 that Technicians need to know it completely in order to design an IPv6 network and for it also to work with IPv4. I didn't write that I'm against learning or implementing IPv6, I wrote my opinion on why deployment of IPv6 is slow and will be slow. It took us approximately 25 years to use almost 4,294,967,296 IPv4 addresses, the same number of ip addresses IPv4+ will bring us at least more 25 years. CGNAT is not good for datacenters, and datacenter needs and will need more IPv4 addresses. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Torbjörn Eklöv <torbjorn.eklov@interlan.se<mailto:torbjorn.eklov@interlan.se>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:15 AM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>> Cc: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>>; Atif Naveed <a.naveed@go.com.sa<mailto:a.naveed@go.com.sa>>; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt<mailto:noc@xervers.pt>>; members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Elad,
Because IPv6 is a completely different network than IPv4, IPv4+ is the same network of IPv4.
No, IPv4+ is also a complete new network that no OS supports and no technician can understand now. It’s more complicated and more time consuming than deploying IPv6.
(IPv6 require complete new network design, much more to learn for companies/organizations and much more expenses for companies/organizations. IPv4+ will give more time and space that is needed in the world today)
Yes, it’s "new“ but you had +20 years to learn IPv6 and you have time now to learn it now while CGNAT is growing. IPv4+ just extends the time a little bit more. /Tobbe
Respectfully, Elad From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 11:04 PM To: Atif Naveed <a.naveed@go.com.sa<mailto:a.naveed@go.com.sa>>; Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt<mailto:noc@xervers.pt>>; members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Dear Atif,
Respectfully, we have IPv6 sessions with Tier1 and peering networks and have had for some years now. I’m not sure there is a Tier1 who doesn’t offer IPv6. Most UK ISP’s now provide IPv6 by default to people’s homes.
I agree the uptake has been incredibly slow, which is why I don’t think IPv4+ will be any better. We all updated kit for IPv6 providing trillions more IP addresses to each LIR but the uptake has been slow. Why would the uptake be faster for IPv4+?
Best,
Stuart Willet.
From: Atif Naveed [mailto:a.naveed@go.com.sa] Sent: 25 April 2020 20:30 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>>; Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt<mailto:noc@xervers.pt>>; members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Dear Stuart,
Hold your horses, till day where IPv6 stands not near to 1 to 10% of utilization across internet. So in so many years IPv6 still not able to catch the eyes of Tier1 or any ISP or simple users.
So what Elad is offering is still very good option to move ahead at this stage before ipv6 takes off its flight in next decade or so.
And I can understand deployment will be not that’s straight forward but once it starts flying it will make its own path .
Regards
Atif Naveed Sr. Specialist IGW/ISP Core Network Operations D:+966-11511-1263 E:a.naveed@go.com.sa www.go.com.sa<http://www.go.com.sa>
From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> On Behalf Of Stuart Willet (primary) Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 10:21 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt<mailto:noc@xervers.pt>>; members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Respectfully, I do not think you have fully considered the logistics involved in updating so much hardware and software.
What about all the L3 switches and routers not owned by ISP’s? What about bigger ISP’s ad Tier 1’s? Do you honestly believe NTT or Telia will update millions of network devices worldwide for a /21?
Honestly, the update alone is unfeasible, especially when we already have fully working IPv6.
On that note, everyone has been given an incredible amount of IPv6 space, but this has not picked up anywhere near fast enough. I appreciate you believe IPv4+ will be more compatible, but it simply will not work unless the entire world updates all IP based switching and routing platforms as well as operating systems and bespoke hardware.
Best, Stuart Willet.
From: Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] Sent: 25 April 2020 20:13 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>>; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt<mailto:noc@xervers.pt>>; members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
My main issue is that it is not a replacement for IPv6, it is just an additional pool of ip addresses for IPv4, I do understand that IPv4 ip addresses don't come near to the amount of ip addresses in IPv6, but we will always have devices that are too old to be upgraded to IPv6 and the solution I wrote is doubling the amount of IPv4 (comparing to IPv6 it is meaning less but comparing to the number of ip addresses in IPv4 it is doubling the amount of IPv4), and I do believe that more IPv4 addresses will make the transition to IPv6 faster (everyone will be able to support both IPv6 and IPv4 and then transition to only-IPv6 will be smoother).
Regarding the number of devices: • Any routing device with more than two physical routes • Any BGP router • Any operating system The operating systems updates can be fast through their automatic update systems, regarding updating the routing equipment - if each ASN will be know the he will receive a free /21 from the IPv4+ you will see that it will be fast as well (and after it each of the 5 RIRs will have more than 800,000,000 new IPv4 addresses).
When the ip protocol was created with the saved reserved bit, the reserved bit was saved for just such case, for the case that we are in, what better use would be to the reserved bit in the IPv4 packet header if not to double the amount of IPv4 addresses (at the last stage of the transition to IPv6).
Respectfully, Elad From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 10:01 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt<mailto:noc@xervers.pt>>; members-discuss@ripe.net<members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net%3cmembers-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Sorry, there are far too many Layer3 switches and routers which already support IPv6 and would need to be updated to support IPv4+. There are also many firewalls, both hardware and software which would need updating but can already use IPv6.
If you had proposed this before the introduction of IPv6 I am sure it would have worked, but it is inferior to IPv6 in two respects. 1: it would require updating millions of routers, L3 switches, firewalls, operating systems and 3rd party devices. 2: it would not offer anywhere close to the amount of IPv6 addresses which already work.
Best, Stuart Willet.
From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Elad Cohen Sent: 25 April 2020 19:56 To: noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt<mailto:noc@xervers.pt>>; members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
It is not a complete new protocol, the reserved bit (in IPv4 packet header) was intended to be reserved for future use, the future usage of it was planned.
I'm not against IPv6, but IPv6 is not backward compatible with IPv4 by design and the world currently need more IPv4 addresses, the number of IPv4 addresses can be easily doubled even in one week, through operating system update of the biggest operating system vendors and simple firmware upgrades by the routing equipment manufacturers.
switches are working on layer2, they are not related to ip.
Respectfully, Elad
From: noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt<mailto:noc@xervers.pt>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 9:48 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
That won't be IPv4 but a complete new protocol, and routers/switches/whatever won't support them. It's a better and cleaner solution to move to IPv6.
Cheers.
<image001.jpg> NOC xervers | +351 300 404 316 P Please consider the environment before printing this email <image002.jpg> <image002.jpg> <image002.jpg> <image003.jpg>
De: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> Em Nome De Elad Cohen Enviada: sábado, 25 de abril de 2020 20:21 Para: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Assunto: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hello Everyone,
I want to share with you my technical solution to the "IPv4 Exhaustion" problem (without to upgrade each and every router that exist in the internet), using the below implementation there will be more 4,294,967,296 IPv4 addresses that the world needs so much:
Currently in an IPv4 packet - the source address and the destination address are being represented each by four bytes, each of these four bytes are being displayed as: [0-255].[0-255].[0-255].[0-255]
But it is up to us to choose how we want to display them, for example: four bytes can also be displayed as [0-65535].[0-65535] (two numbers and one dot, the two numbers are bigger because in total they also being represented as four bytes)
So there can be one set of 4,294,967,296 IPv4 addresses (the one that we know in the display format of [0-255].[0-255].[0-255].[0-255])
and another set of 4,294,967,296 IPv4 addresses (with a new format of [0-65535].[0-65535])
We need to have a mark, a flag, in the ip packet header - in order to know if the source address is of the old formatting (IPv4) or of the new formatting (lets call it IPv4+), for that mark the 'reserved bit' in the ip header can be used, so in case the source address is of IPv4+ or in case that the destination address is of IPv4+ (or in case that both the source and destination addresses are of IPv4+) then the reserved bit in the ip header will be set to 1 , we then also need to know exactly if the source address is of IPv4+ or not (meaning of IPv4) and if the destination address is of IPv4+ or not (meaning of IPv4) - this can be done by marking the DF flag if the source address is of IPv4+ (and not marking the DF flag if the source address is of IPv4) and marking the MF flag if the destination address is of IPv4+ (and not marking the MF flag if the destination address is of IPv4), by using the DF and MF bits which are related to fragmentation (whenever the reserved bit is set to '1') we are losing the ip fragmentation functionality for any traffic with an IPv4+ address (for traffic between two IPv4 addresses, the reserved bit is not set to '1' and hence optional ip fragment functionality is unchanged)
We need to know the MTU before an IPv4+ packet will be sent, because no fragmentation will be able to be done with IPv4+ , the current "Path MTU Discovery" (RFC 1191) is not good for that case because it is using the DF bit which we are using as well (and in IPv4+ traffic a DF flag set to 1 is marking that the source address is of IPv4+), and also ICMP protocol can be blocked by routers in the routing path, the solution is to send multiple udp requests (with fixed known MTU sizes) to the destination address (lets call it IPv4+ handshake) - the destination address may or may not receive them (in case a router in the routing path have multiple upstreams and wasn't upgraded to an upper version that supports IPv4+ then it will not recognize the reserved bit and the DF and MF bits related to it, it will not recognize the new IPv4+ addresses and even if the reserved bit is set to '1' and MF flag is set to '1' in the ip packet - it will route to to the destination address just like it is an IPv4 address and not IPv4+ address, meaning to a completely different destination address) - in case the destination address indeed received the IPv4+ packets - it will send back the udp requests to the source address at the exact same sizes (with the reserved bit flag set to '1' and with the DF and MF flags set accordingly) - when the source address will receive them - the source address will know that the destination address is supporting IPv4+ , that ip packets with new IPv4+ formatting will reach the destination and the source address will know what is the biggest size of the udp request that was received - and it will be the MTU for that specific connection between the source and the destination addresses (The IPv4+ handshake will be done again if there is no response from the destination after the initial udp handshake was already completed successfully).
The udp handshake between a source address and a destination address (that any of them or them both is an IPv4+ address) will use a specific udp port, an availalbe unassigned port between 0 to 1023, an operating system networking stack (that was updated for IPv4+ with the operating system automatic updating system) will know exactly what this udp port is for - and will react accordingly, the upgraded operating system networking stack will also check that the destination address (in the IPv4 or in the IPv4+ format) is set locally in the operating system, before sending the udp requests back to the source address (if not then the ip packet will be dropped by the upgraded operating system networking stack). Any operating system that wasn't upgraded to support IPv4+ - will just drop that kind of udp requests.
IPv4+ is fully backward compatible to IPv4 (and any router that was not upgraded yet to IPv4+ will not cause IPv4 traffic to break), it is also not adding any new fields to ip packets or using new fields, IPv4+ will not cause any performance overload for any supported router.
The reason that the MF and DF bits are being use for IPv4+ and not the ToS / IP-ID / Options in ip header are being used is because we cannot be 100% sure that the ToS / IP-ID / Options in the ip header will not be changed or dropped by any rouer in the routing path that wasn't upgraded to IPv4+ (and we don't want to upgrade any router in the world because it is an impossible mission) - in the ip header ToS is being cleared by some routers - IP-ID can be changed by NAT routers - Options field is dropped by many routers, we can trust that the DF and MF flags will not be modified in the routing path by routers that weren't upgraded to IPv4+.
For the above solution not all the internet devices in the world needs to be patched/upgraded to support IPv4+ which is an impossible mission, end-users operating systems need to be upgraded (but it can be done simply using their automatic updating system), BGP routers (and any router with multiple physical routing paths) will need to have its firmware upgraded to support IPv4+, any NAT router that will want to use an external IPv4+ address will need to have its firmware upgraded (any NAT router that will use an external IPv4 address will not need to have its firmware upgraded, only the internet devices in the LAN of the NAT router will need to have a single operating system update in order for them to access IPv4+ addresses in the internet), any home router (not NAT) or home modem will not need to have a firmware upgrade and IPv4+ functionality will be transparent to them.
The deployment of IPv4+ can be fairly easy and very fast, a round table of one person from each one of the 5 RIRs and from each one of the operating systems vendors and from each one of the router manufacture vendors. Even if IPv4+ will be deployed over time, it will not cause the internet to break (devices that need to be upgraded to IPv4+ and didn't yet will work exactly as they are now with IPv4, they will just not yet support IPv4+).
The above will resolve the "IPv4 Exhaustion" problem and will bring to each one of the 5 RIRs almost 900,000,000 new IPv4+ addresses that will be able to the provided to the LIRs worldwide, if you have any question please let me know.
Respectfully, Elad _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/torbjorn.eklov%40inte...
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/campbell%40inca.ie
Then you need to update software of all routers. Any router in the path must not switch the df bit. Every piece of network hardware must be verified or updated, which would cause a big delay in implementing. If it is not checked some router may flip the df bit and you would not get a connectoin. I guess to setup IPv6 is more straightforward and would not cause this delay. Because we have it already. It is a nice idea of you but it will fail at the implementing or causes several delay. Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards Tobias Lehner Hartl-EDV GmbH & Co. KG Von: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io> Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. April 2020 09:54 An: Tobias Lehner <tl@hartl-edv.de>; 'noc' <noc@xervers.pt>; Ed Campbell <campbell@inca.ie> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world You didn't fully read my initial post, the MTU with IPv4+ will not be a fixed MTU of 1500 or of any other fixed value, it will be set in the beginning of the connection through a process called: "IPv4+ UDP Handshake" Respectfully, Elad _____ From: Tobias Lehner Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:51 AM To: Elad Cohen; 'noc'; Ed Campbell Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: AW: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world You cannot be sure to have MTU of 1500 everywhere… Normally routers should not do anything with df bit, but it is possible to flip the df bit on the router. It is required for some cases. Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards Tobias Lehner Hartl-EDV GmbH & Co. KG Von: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io <mailto:elad@netstyle.io> > Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. April 2020 09:48 An: Tobias Lehner <tl@hartl-edv.de <mailto:tl@hartl-edv.de> >; 'noc' <noc@xervers.pt <mailto:noc@xervers.pt> >; Ed Campbell <campbell@inca.ie <mailto:campbell@inca.ie> > Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Tobias, Routers will not do anything with the DF and MF flags as long that MTU is fine (and MTU is initially checked with "IPv4+ UDP Handshake") I wrote in previous reply an adjustment to the idea that is quicker to deploy and will not require the routers, but it will lack the RIRs being able to allocate and to assign IPv4+ addresses to LIRs. Each LIR will automatically receive an additional IPv4 address for each current IPv4 address that it have: -------- Here is an optional adjustment to the idea: Only end-users and servers operating systems will be updated (using the operating systems automatic updating mechanism), using the same way that I wrote with the exact same feasible IPv4 packet modification implementation (reserved bit, no fragmentation, fragmentation flags, udp handshake), no other equipment will need to be updated, no routers will need to be updated at all - but then the routing of IPv4+ addresses will always be to the same destination device that have the same four bytes of destination IPv4 address (meaning routing will be as it is now - based on IPv4 and not on IPv4+). In this way, the number of IPv4 addresses will be doubled and each ASN will double his number of IPv4 addresses, each ASN will have his exact same ip addresses but in two formats - in IPv4 format and in IPv4+ format. (if the community is lazy and don't want to upgrade the needed routers by IT professionals, and it is not the whole routers in the world, far far far less) -------- Respectfully, Elad _____ From: Tobias Lehner Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:43 AM To: 'noc'; Elad Cohen; Ed Campbell Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: AW: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi, Furthermore, every router in the connection can/may add/remove the df bit, which breaks your idea. We should really go in the direction of IPv6. Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards Tobias Lehner Hartl-EDV GmbH & Co. KG Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> > Im Auftrag von noc Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. April 2020 09:23 An: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io <mailto:elad@netstyle.io> >; Ed Campbell <campbell@inca.ie <mailto:campbell@inca.ie> > Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hello Elad. I've been reading all the messages you sent. I see that you try hard to push your vision. But here's some reasons to what you suggest doesn't work and will never work: - the extra 2 bits you suggest to use (fragmentation bits) are there for a reason. And that reason is not to have more ips, but to fragment packets when needed. On a perfect worldwide network, they aren't needed. But we are on a imperfect worldwide network and many systems need packet fragmentation to work (satellite systems by example). - it's not possible to upgrade millions of routers. Many reached end-of-life many years ago. If the ISP switch the router, he will deploy right away ipv6. - IPv4+ will not give more time to deploy IPv6. It will only delay it. Everyone is lazy for different reasons. So, if IPv4 works, why deploy IPv6? No. It's been since 2012 that we (RIPE) announced the exhaustion of IPv4. And very few has been done to push IPv6. - enterprises like Microsoft will earn a lot more of IPv4+ if they implement it... Why will they bother? They already have 2 /8 legacy not being used/routed. And this is the same for a lot other companies. Many already invested a lot on IPv6, will they do new investments for IPv4+ knowing that is a dead end? No. - IPv4+ is easy to implement. Wrong. It's hard. It will need to be implemented on each level till the top (IANA), and I doubt the very top will do anything to change this. Looking at the statistics everywhere, I see that IPv6 implementation his growing a lot since September. And this, yes. It's a good news. Your idea should've be pushed 15 years ago (before the running out announcement), not now. Now there is nothing it can be done. Cheers Enviado a partir do meu smartphone Samsung Galaxy. -------- Mensagem original -------- De : Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io <mailto:elad@netstyle.io> > Data: 26/04/20 00:54 (GMT+01:00) Para: Ed Campbell <campbell@inca.ie <mailto:campbell@inca.ie> > Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Assunto: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Indeed demand is rising, but I don't believe that the world will use more than 4 billion new IPv4 addresses in 5 years, it will not happen, the RIRs already have very strict policies that will continue to be used, IPv4+ will not end fast - it will provide many many years that in them migration to IPv6 will be able to be completed quietly. (without the world to be in any problem) The only reason that IPv4 exhausted recently is because companies from all over the world were told that IPv4 is about to end (and this was the brainwash) so they opened LIR accounts like crazy just to get the last /22's - this is the only reason. And people that are doing money out of it. But if each RIR will have 800+ new million ip addresses and the RIRs will use strict policies to provide them and there will not be a shortage and the public will know that there isn't a shortage of IPv4 - then you will see that companies will not open LIR accounts like crazy just to get the last IPv4 addresses. Respectfully, Elad _____ From: Ed Campbell <campbell@inca.ie <mailto:campbell@inca.ie> > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:39 AM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io <mailto:elad@netstyle.io> > Cc: Torbjörn Eklöv <torbjorn.eklov@interlan.se <mailto:torbjorn.eklov@interlan.se> >; members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world IPv6 isn’t slow because of the lack of trying, it is slow because of Microsoft et al’s unwillingness to adopt it. If it became the default IP stack to use on all operating systems rather than a “nice to have” “feature” attitudes would change. 3-4 times you have said now that it would take another 25 years to exhaust this “new” IPv4 space, that just doesn’t track with the current demand for addressing. You’d only be delaying and thwarting existing efforts to deploy IPv6. Sent from my iPhone On 25 Apr 2020, at 22:34, Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io <mailto:elad@netstyle.io> > wrote: Torbjorn, IPv6 cannot communicate directly with IPv4, while IPv4+ can communicate directly with IPv4. Technicians don't have to know anything about IPv4+ (and not to know how it internally works) besides to know how to upgrade the firmware of a router and how to update a patch to an operating system, in contrary to IPv6 that Technicians need to know it completely in order to design an IPv6 network and for it also to work with IPv4. I didn't write that I'm against learning or implementing IPv6, I wrote my opinion on why deployment of IPv6 is slow and will be slow. It took us approximately 25 years to use almost 4,294,967,296 IPv4 addresses, the same number of ip addresses IPv4+ will bring us at least more 25 years. CGNAT is not good for datacenters, and datacenter needs and will need more IPv4 addresses. Respectfully, Elad _____ From: Torbjörn Eklöv <torbjorn.eklov@interlan.se <mailto:torbjorn.eklov@interlan.se> > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:15 AM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io <mailto:elad@netstyle.io> > Cc: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk <mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk> >; Atif Naveed <a.naveed@go.com.sa <mailto:a.naveed@go.com.sa> >; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt <mailto:noc@xervers.pt> >; members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Elad,
Because IPv6 is a completely different network than IPv4, IPv4+ is the same network of IPv4.
No, IPv4+ is also a complete new network that no OS supports and no technician can understand now. It’s more complicated and more time consuming than deploying IPv6.
(IPv6 require complete new network design, much more to learn for companies/organizations and much more expenses for companies/organizations. IPv4+ will give more time and space that is needed in the world today)
Yes, it’s "new“ but you had +20 years to learn IPv6 and you have time now to learn it now while CGNAT is growing. IPv4+ just extends the time a little bit more. /Tobbe
Respectfully, Elad From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk <mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 11:04 PM To: Atif Naveed <a.naveed@go.com.sa <mailto:a.naveed@go.com.sa> >; Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io <mailto:elad@netstyle.io> >; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt <mailto:noc@xervers.pt> >; members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Dear Atif,
Respectfully, we have IPv6 sessions with Tier1 and peering networks and have had for some years now. I’m not sure there is a Tier1 who doesn’t offer IPv6. Most UK ISP’s now provide IPv6 by default to people’s homes.
I agree the uptake has been incredibly slow, which is why I don’t think IPv4+ will be any better. We all updated kit for IPv6 providing trillions more IP addresses to each LIR but the uptake has been slow. Why would the uptake be faster for IPv4+?
Best,
Stuart Willet.
From: Atif Naveed [mailto:a.naveed@go.com.sa] Sent: 25 April 2020 20:30 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk <mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk> >; Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io <mailto:elad@netstyle.io> >; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt <mailto:noc@xervers.pt> >; members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Dear Stuart,
Hold your horses, till day where IPv6 stands not near to 1 to 10% of utilization across internet. So in so many years IPv6 still not able to catch the eyes of Tier1 or any ISP or simple users.
So what Elad is offering is still very good option to move ahead at this stage before ipv6 takes off its flight in next decade or so.
And I can understand deployment will be not that’s straight forward but once it starts flying it will make its own path .
Regards
Atif Naveed Sr. Specialist IGW/ISP Core Network Operations D:+966-11511-1263 E:a.naveed@go.com.sa www.go.com.sa <http://www.go.com.sa>
From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> > On Behalf Of Stuart Willet (primary) Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 10:21 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io <mailto:elad@netstyle.io> >; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt <mailto:noc@xervers.pt> >; members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Respectfully, I do not think you have fully considered the logistics involved in updating so much hardware and software.
What about all the L3 switches and routers not owned by ISP’s? What about bigger ISP’s ad Tier 1’s? Do you honestly believe NTT or Telia will update millions of network devices worldwide for a /21?
Honestly, the update alone is unfeasible, especially when we already have fully working IPv6.
On that note, everyone has been given an incredible amount of IPv6 space, but this has not picked up anywhere near fast enough. I appreciate you believe IPv4+ will be more compatible, but it simply will not work unless the entire world updates all IP based switching and routing platforms as well as operating systems and bespoke hardware.
Best, Stuart Willet.
From: Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] Sent: 25 April 2020 20:13 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk <mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk> >; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt <mailto:noc@xervers.pt> >; members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
My main issue is that it is not a replacement for IPv6, it is just an additional pool of ip addresses for IPv4, I do understand that IPv4 ip addresses don't come near to the amount of ip addresses in IPv6, but we will always have devices that are too old to be upgraded to IPv6 and the solution I wrote is doubling the amount of IPv4 (comparing to IPv6 it is meaning less but comparing to the number of ip addresses in IPv4 it is doubling the amount of IPv4), and I do believe that more IPv4 addresses will make the transition to IPv6 faster (everyone will be able to support both IPv6 and IPv4 and then transition to only-IPv6 will be smoother).
Regarding the number of devices: • Any routing device with more than two physical routes • Any BGP router • Any operating system The operating systems updates can be fast through their automatic update systems, regarding updating the routing equipment - if each ASN will be know the he will receive a free /21 from the IPv4+ you will see that it will be fast as well (and after it each of the 5 RIRs will have more than 800,000,000 new IPv4 addresses).
When the ip protocol was created with the saved reserved bit, the reserved bit was saved for just such case, for the case that we are in, what better use would be to the reserved bit in the IPv4 packet header if not to double the amount of IPv4 addresses (at the last stage of the transition to IPv6).
Respectfully, Elad From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk <mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 10:01 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io <mailto:elad@netstyle.io> >; noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt <mailto:noc@xervers.pt> >; members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net%3cmembers-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Sorry, there are far too many Layer3 switches and routers which already support IPv6 and would need to be updated to support IPv4+. There are also many firewalls, both hardware and software which would need updating but can already use IPv6.
If you had proposed this before the introduction of IPv6 I am sure it would have worked, but it is inferior to IPv6 in two respects. 1: it would require updating millions of routers, L3 switches, firewalls, operating systems and 3rd party devices. 2: it would not offer anywhere close to the amount of IPv6 addresses which already work.
Best, Stuart Willet.
From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Elad Cohen Sent: 25 April 2020 19:56 To: noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt <mailto:noc@xervers.pt> >; members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
It is not a complete new protocol, the reserved bit (in IPv4 packet header) was intended to be reserved for future use, the future usage of it was planned.
I'm not against IPv6, but IPv6 is not backward compatible with IPv4 by design and the world currently need more IPv4 addresses, the number of IPv4 addresses can be easily doubled even in one week, through operating system update of the biggest operating system vendors and simple firmware upgrades by the routing equipment manufacturers.
switches are working on layer2, they are not related to ip.
Respectfully, Elad
From: noc xervers <noc@xervers.pt <mailto:noc@xervers.pt> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 9:48 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io <mailto:elad@netstyle.io> >; members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
That won't be IPv4 but a complete new protocol, and routers/switches/whatever won't support them. It's a better and cleaner solution to move to IPv6.
Cheers.
<image001.jpg> NOC xervers | +351 300 404 316 P Please consider the environment before printing this email <image002.jpg> <image002.jpg> <image002.jpg> <image003.jpg>
De: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> > Em Nome De Elad Cohen Enviada: sábado, 25 de abril de 2020 20:21 Para: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Assunto: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hello Everyone,
I want to share with you my technical solution to the "IPv4 Exhaustion" problem (without to upgrade each and every router that exist in the internet), using the below implementation there will be more 4,294,967,296 IPv4 addresses that the world needs so much:
Currently in an IPv4 packet - the source address and the destination address are being represented each by four bytes, each of these four bytes are being displayed as: [0-255].[0-255].[0-255].[0-255]
But it is up to us to choose how we want to display them, for example: four bytes can also be displayed as [0-65535].[0-65535] (two numbers and one dot, the two numbers are bigger because in total they also being represented as four bytes)
So there can be one set of 4,294,967,296 IPv4 addresses (the one that we know in the display format of [0-255].[0-255].[0-255].[0-255])
and another set of 4,294,967,296 IPv4 addresses (with a new format of [0-65535].[0-65535])
We need to have a mark, a flag, in the ip packet header - in order to know if the source address is of the old formatting (IPv4) or of the new formatting (lets call it IPv4+), for that mark the 'reserved bit' in the ip header can be used, so in case the source address is of IPv4+ or in case that the destination address is of IPv4+ (or in case that both the source and destination addresses are of IPv4+) then the reserved bit in the ip header will be set to 1 , we then also need to know exactly if the source address is of IPv4+ or not (meaning of IPv4) and if the destination address is of IPv4+ or not (meaning of IPv4) - this can be done by marking the DF flag if the source address is of IPv4+ (and not marking the DF flag if the source address is of IPv4) and marking the MF flag if the destination address is of IPv4+ (and not marking the MF flag if the destination address is of IPv4), by using the DF and MF bits which are related to fragmentation (whenever the reserved bit is set to '1') we are losing the ip fragmentation functionality for any traffic with an IPv4+ address (for traffic between two IPv4 addresses, the reserved bit is not set to '1' and hence optional ip fragment functionality is unchanged)
We need to know the MTU before an IPv4+ packet will be sent, because no fragmentation will be able to be done with IPv4+ , the current "Path MTU Discovery" (RFC 1191) is not good for that case because it is using the DF bit which we are using as well (and in IPv4+ traffic a DF flag set to 1 is marking that the source address is of IPv4+), and also ICMP protocol can be blocked by routers in the routing path, the solution is to send multiple udp requests (with fixed known MTU sizes) to the destination address (lets call it IPv4+ handshake) - the destination address may or may not receive them (in case a router in the routing path have multiple upstreams and wasn't upgraded to an upper version that supports IPv4+ then it will not recognize the reserved bit and the DF and MF bits related to it, it will not recognize the new IPv4+ addresses and even if the reserved bit is set to '1' and MF flag is set to '1' in the ip packet - it will route to to the destination address just like it is an IPv4 address and not IPv4+ address, meaning to a completely different destination address) - in case the destination address indeed received the IPv4+ packets - it will send back the udp requests to the source address at the exact same sizes (with the reserved bit flag set to '1' and with the DF and MF flags set accordingly) - when the source address will receive them - the source address will know that the destination address is supporting IPv4+ , that ip packets with new IPv4+ formatting will reach the destination and the source address will know what is the biggest size of the udp request that was received - and it will be the MTU for that specific connection between the source and the destination addresses (The IPv4+ handshake will be done again if there is no response from the destination after the initial udp handshake was already completed successfully).
The udp handshake between a source address and a destination address (that any of them or them both is an IPv4+ address) will use a specific udp port, an availalbe unassigned port between 0 to 1023, an operating system networking stack (that was updated for IPv4+ with the operating system automatic updating system) will know exactly what this udp port is for - and will react accordingly, the upgraded operating system networking stack will also check that the destination address (in the IPv4 or in the IPv4+ format) is set locally in the operating system, before sending the udp requests back to the source address (if not then the ip packet will be dropped by the upgraded operating system networking stack). Any operating system that wasn't upgraded to support IPv4+ - will just drop that kind of udp requests.
IPv4+ is fully backward compatible to IPv4 (and any router that was not upgraded yet to IPv4+ will not cause IPv4 traffic to break), it is also not adding any new fields to ip packets or using new fields, IPv4+ will not cause any performance overload for any supported router.
The reason that the MF and DF bits are being use for IPv4+ and not the ToS / IP-ID / Options in ip header are being used is because we cannot be 100% sure that the ToS / IP-ID / Options in the ip header will not be changed or dropped by any rouer in the routing path that wasn't upgraded to IPv4+ (and we don't want to upgrade any router in the world because it is an impossible mission) - in the ip header ToS is being cleared by some routers - IP-ID can be changed by NAT routers - Options field is dropped by many routers, we can trust that the DF and MF flags will not be modified in the routing path by routers that weren't upgraded to IPv4+.
For the above solution not all the internet devices in the world needs to be patched/upgraded to support IPv4+ which is an impossible mission, end-users operating systems need to be upgraded (but it can be done simply using their automatic updating system), BGP routers (and any router with multiple physical routing paths) will need to have its firmware upgraded to support IPv4+, any NAT router that will want to use an external IPv4+ address will need to have its firmware upgraded (any NAT router that will use an external IPv4 address will not need to have its firmware upgraded, only the internet devices in the LAN of the NAT router will need to have a single operating system update in order for them to access IPv4+ addresses in the internet), any home router (not NAT) or home modem will not need to have a firmware upgrade and IPv4+ functionality will be transparent to them.
The deployment of IPv4+ can be fairly easy and very fast, a round table of one person from each one of the 5 RIRs and from each one of the operating systems vendors and from each one of the router manufacture vendors. Even if IPv4+ will be deployed over time, it will not cause the internet to break (devices that need to be upgraded to IPv4+ and didn't yet will work exactly as they are now with IPv4, they will just not yet support IPv4+).
The above will resolve the "IPv4 Exhaustion" problem and will bring to each one of the 5 RIRs almost 900,000,000 new IPv4+ addresses that will be able to the provided to the LIRs worldwide, if you have any question please let me know.
Respectfully, Elad _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/torbjorn.eklov%40inte...
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/campbell%40inca.ie
Hi, On Sun, 26 Apr 2020, Elad Cohen wrote:
You didn't fully read my initial post, the MTU with IPv4+ will not be a fixed MTU of 1500 or of any other fixed value, it will be set in the beginning of the connection through a process called: "IPv4+ UDP Handshake"
Respectfully, Elad <snipp/>
Respectfully your solution does not solve any problem. It just creates new ones. There is no connectivity between IPv4 and IPv4+. So clients needing access to both world need to "dual stack" or even "triple stack" if they also need IPv6. To enable connectivity between IPv4 and IPv4+ you would need routers to support 33 bit routes which is not going to happen. To enable a client to connect to both the IPv4 and IPv4+ internet it seems to me that you would need at least another address family in the socket protocols which is also a massive overhead. The formatting of the address as two 16 bit values instead of four 8 bit values does not fix the issue in the clients ipv4 stack. You cannot route ipv4 and ipv4+ in the same global internet if they are two seprate networks and if the addresses mean different things depending on arbitrary address bits. So I fail to see how in any way your solution would provide more adresses to the existing internet without creating a new isolated cloud. IPv6 can coexist with IPv4 because it has been designed appropriately as a fully separate protocol with clean separation in the the ip stack via a separate address family. Greetings Christian -- Christian Kratzer CK Software GmbH Email: ck@cksoft.de Wildberger Weg 24/2 Phone: +49 7032 893 997 - 0 D-71126 Gaeufelden Fax: +49 7032 893 997 - 9 HRB 245288, Amtsgericht Stuttgart Mobile: +49 171 1947 843 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Christian Kratzer Web: http://www.cksoft.de/
Christian, I'm sorry to write, but you didn't understand how IPv4+ works. And everything that you wrote regarding IPv4+ is completely incorrect. "There is no connectivity between IPv4 and IPv4+" - IPv4+ is IPv4, exact same protocol. "you would need routers to support 33 bit routes which is not going to happen" - This is completely incorrect, route bits are exactly the same. "To enable a client to connect to both the IPv4 and IPv4+ internet it seems to me that you would need at least another address family in the socket protocols which is also a massive overhead. The formatting of the address as two 16 bit values instead of four 8 bit values does not fix the issue in the clients ipv4 stack." - No another address family is needed, the source address and destination are exactly in the four bytes each as they are now - the only difference is the application layer in the operating system - based if the single reserved bit flag is on or off - the ip address will be displayed with one dot (IPv4+) or with three dots (IPv4). "You cannot route ipv4 and ipv4+ in the same global internet if they are two seprate networks and if the addresses mean different things depending on arbitrary address bits." - It is the same network, IPv4 (I'm calling it IPv4+ to represent the one-dot addressing to higher application layers, but it is the same IPv4 packets, same IPv4 network) I'm not against IPv6, IPv6 and IPv4 will always co-exist in some way, IPv4+ brings more ip addresses to IPv4, it doesn't disturb a bit IPv6. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Christian Kratzer <ck@cksoft.de> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:12 AM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io> Cc: Tobias Lehner <tl@hartl-edv.de>; 'noc' <noc@xervers.pt>; Ed Campbell <campbell@inca.ie>; members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi, On Sun, 26 Apr 2020, Elad Cohen wrote:
You didn't fully read my initial post, the MTU with IPv4+ will not be a fixed MTU of 1500 or of any other fixed value, it will be set in the beginning of the connection through a process called: "IPv4+ UDP Handshake"
Respectfully, Elad <snipp/>
Respectfully your solution does not solve any problem. It just creates new ones. There is no connectivity between IPv4 and IPv4+. So clients needing access to both world need to "dual stack" or even "triple stack" if they also need IPv6. To enable connectivity between IPv4 and IPv4+ you would need routers to support 33 bit routes which is not going to happen. To enable a client to connect to both the IPv4 and IPv4+ internet it seems to me that you would need at least another address family in the socket protocols which is also a massive overhead. The formatting of the address as two 16 bit values instead of four 8 bit values does not fix the issue in the clients ipv4 stack. You cannot route ipv4 and ipv4+ in the same global internet if they are two seprate networks and if the addresses mean different things depending on arbitrary address bits. So I fail to see how in any way your solution would provide more adresses to the existing internet without creating a new isolated cloud. IPv6 can coexist with IPv4 because it has been designed appropriately as a fully separate protocol with clean separation in the the ip stack via a separate address family. Greetings Christian -- Christian Kratzer CK Software GmbH Email: ck@cksoft.de Wildberger Weg 24/2 Phone: +49 7032 893 997 - 0 D-71126 Gaeufelden Fax: +49 7032 893 997 - 9 HRB 245288, Amtsgericht Stuttgart Mobile: +49 171 1947 843 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Christian Kratzer Web: http://www.cksoft.de/
Hi Elad, On Sun, 26 Apr 2020, Elad Cohen wrote:
Christian,
I'm sorry to write, but you didn't understand how IPv4+ works. And everything that you wrote regarding IPv4+ is completely incorrect.
Everything about IPv4+ is completely inpractical.
"There is no connectivity between IPv4 and IPv4+" - IPv4+ is IPv4, exact same protocol.
"you would need routers to support 33 bit routes which is not going to happen" - This is completely incorrect, route bits are exactly the same.
The ip address is the clients identity. That is how it is routed. Routing cannot route ipv4 and ipv4+ packets to different destinations because packets are routed by the destination address only. So while the core networks would transpart packets between LIR the LIR themselves would not be able to route packets to different clients.
"To enable a client to connect to both the IPv4 and IPv4+ internet it seems to me that you would need at least another address family in the socket protocols which is also a massive overhead. The formatting of the address as two 16 bit values instead of four 8 bit values does not fix the issue in the clients ipv4 stack." - No another address family is needed, the source address and destination are exactly in the four bytes each as they are now - the only difference is the application layer in the operating system - based if the single reserved bit flag is on or off - the ip address will be displayed with one dot (IPv4+) or with three dots (IPv4).
The string represenation of the address is not the criteria how existing socket api work. The api work internally with 32 bit values. There is no formatting in them.
"You cannot route ipv4 and ipv4+ in the same global internet if they are two seprate networks and if the addresses mean different things depending on arbitrary address bits." - It is the same network, IPv4 (I'm calling it IPv4+ to represent the one-dot addressing to higher application layers, but it is the same IPv4 packets, same IPv4 network)
You can only have more addresses if you add bits to the addresses.
I'm not against IPv6, IPv6 and IPv4 will always co-exist in some way, IPv4+ brings more ip addresses to IPv4, it doesn't disturb a bit IPv6.
it breaks ipv4. Greetings Christian -- Christian Kratzer CK Software GmbH Email: ck@cksoft.de Wildberger Weg 24/2 Phone: +49 7032 893 997 - 0 D-71126 Gaeufelden Fax: +49 7032 893 997 - 9 HRB 245288, Amtsgericht Stuttgart Mobile: +49 171 1947 843 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Christian Kratzer Web: http://www.cksoft.de/
Christian, Let me explain: "The ip address is the clients identity. That is how it is routed. Routing cannot route ipv4 and ipv4+ packets to different destinations because packets are routed by the destination address only." - Routers do not route ip packets based on the 32 bits of the destination address in binary format, they route based on the representation of [0-255].[0-255].[0-255].[0-255] - four decimal numbers in specific ranges between 0 to 255 separated by dots, each decimal number is one byte, in total 4 bytes like they are in the source address or destination address field in the ip header. If the reserved bit flag in the ip header is set to '1' (the reserved bit is not a new bit to be added to the ip header, it is already exist and it is currently set to '0' , we will set it to '1' ) - then the exact same four bytes of the source address (just for the example) will be represented as [0-65535].[0-65535] , meaning two decimal numbers with bigger ranges separated by one dot (the ranges are bigger because each of these two decimal numbers if of two bytes - in total four bytes just like [0-255].[0-255].[0-255].[0-255] ) - by setting the reserved bit to '1' or to '0' we can tell the router if the four bytes - meaning the 32 bits of the source address (just for the example) are in the format of [0-255].[0-255].[0-255].[0-255] if reserved bit is '0' or in the format of [0-65535].[0-65535] if reserved bit '1' , based on it the router will know what is the ip address and then will route it accordingly (routers that have no more than two physical routes - will not need to check the reserved bit in order to know what is the format, they will just forward the ip packet to the other physical route). Regarding: "The string represenation of the address is not the criteria how existing socket api work. The api work internally with 32 bit values. There is no formatting in them." - It is related to the implementation of the operating system internally in the operating system, single patch to the operating system through the automatic update mechanism of the operating system - will resolve it (As part of global IPv4+ implementation there will be a single remote update to each operating system that will want to support IPv4+). Regarding: "You can only have more addresses if you add bits to the addresses." - Please see my first explanation above on how the same four bytes can be used in ip packets with different representation by using the currently unused reserved bit flag in the ip packet. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Christian Kratzer <ck@cksoft.de> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 11:31 AM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io> Cc: Tobias Lehner <tl@hartl-edv.de>; 'noc' <noc@xervers.pt>; Ed Campbell <campbell@inca.ie>; members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi Elad, On Sun, 26 Apr 2020, Elad Cohen wrote:
Christian,
I'm sorry to write, but you didn't understand how IPv4+ works. And everything that you wrote regarding IPv4+ is completely incorrect.
Everything about IPv4+ is completely inpractical.
"There is no connectivity between IPv4 and IPv4+" - IPv4+ is IPv4, exact same protocol.
"you would need routers to support 33 bit routes which is not going to happen" - This is completely incorrect, route bits are exactly the same.
The ip address is the clients identity. That is how it is routed. Routing cannot route ipv4 and ipv4+ packets to different destinations because packets are routed by the destination address only. So while the core networks would transpart packets between LIR the LIR themselves would not be able to route packets to different clients.
"To enable a client to connect to both the IPv4 and IPv4+ internet it seems to me that you would need at least another address family in the socket protocols which is also a massive overhead. The formatting of the address as two 16 bit values instead of four 8 bit values does not fix the issue in the clients ipv4 stack." - No another address family is needed, the source address and destination are exactly in the four bytes each as they are now - the only difference is the application layer in the operating system - based if the single reserved bit flag is on or off - the ip address will be displayed with one dot (IPv4+) or with three dots (IPv4).
The string represenation of the address is not the criteria how existing socket api work. The api work internally with 32 bit values. There is no formatting in them.
"You cannot route ipv4 and ipv4+ in the same global internet if they are two seprate networks and if the addresses mean different things depending on arbitrary address bits." - It is the same network, IPv4 (I'm calling it IPv4+ to represent the one-dot addressing to higher application layers, but it is the same IPv4 packets, same IPv4 network)
You can only have more addresses if you add bits to the addresses.
I'm not against IPv6, IPv6 and IPv4 will always co-exist in some way, IPv4+ brings more ip addresses to IPv4, it doesn't disturb a bit IPv6.
it breaks ipv4. Greetings Christian -- Christian Kratzer CK Software GmbH Email: ck@cksoft.de Wildberger Weg 24/2 Phone: +49 7032 893 997 - 0 D-71126 Gaeufelden Fax: +49 7032 893 997 - 9 HRB 245288, Amtsgericht Stuttgart Mobile: +49 171 1947 843 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Christian Kratzer Web: http://www.cksoft.de/
Hi All, I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC. In the meantime we can reread these one from 1994 and one from 1998 :) https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1726 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2460 have nice sunday br1 On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:32 AM Christian Kratzer <ck@cksoft.de> wrote:
Hi Elad,
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020, Elad Cohen wrote:
Christian,
I'm sorry to write, but you didn't understand how IPv4+ works. And everything that you wrote regarding IPv4+ is completely incorrect.
Everything about IPv4+ is completely inpractical.
"There is no connectivity between IPv4 and IPv4+" - IPv4+ is IPv4, exact same protocol.
"you would need routers to support 33 bit routes which is not going to happen" - This is completely incorrect, route bits are exactly the same.
The ip address is the clients identity. That is how it is routed. Routing cannot route ipv4 and ipv4+ packets to different destinations because packets are routed by the destination address only.
So while the core networks would transpart packets between LIR the LIR themselves would not be able to route packets to different clients.
"To enable a client to connect to both the IPv4 and IPv4+ internet it seems to me that you would need at least another address family in the socket protocols which is also a massive overhead. The formatting of the address as two 16 bit values instead of four 8 bit values does not fix the issue in the clients ipv4 stack." - No another address family is needed, the source address and destination are exactly in the four bytes each as they are now - the only difference is the application layer in the operating system - based if the single reserved bit flag is on or off - the ip address will be displayed with one dot (IPv4+) or with three dots (IPv4).
The string represenation of the address is not the criteria how existing socket api work. The api work internally with 32 bit values. There is no formatting in them.
"You cannot route ipv4 and ipv4+ in the same global internet if they are two seprate networks and if the addresses mean different things depending on arbitrary address bits." - It is the same network, IPv4 (I'm calling it IPv4+ to represent the one-dot addressing to higher application layers, but it is the same IPv4 packets, same IPv4 network)
You can only have more addresses if you add bits to the addresses.
I'm not against IPv6, IPv6 and IPv4 will always co-exist in some way, IPv4+ brings more ip addresses to IPv4, it doesn't disturb a bit IPv6.
it breaks ipv4.
Greetings Christian
-- Christian Kratzer CK Software GmbH Email: ck@cksoft.de Wildberger Weg 24/2 Phone: +49 7032 893 997 - 0 D-71126 Gaeufelden Fax: +49 7032 893 997 - 9 HRB 245288, Amtsgericht Stuttgart Mobile: +49 171 1947 843 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Christian Kratzer Web: http://www.cksoft.de/
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/br1%40br1.com
-- Bruno 'br1' Cordioli www.br1.com br1@br1.com
Hi, On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this. The Internet (and the address distribution towards IANA and the RIRs) operates based on IETF standards, and as long as there is no IETF standard for IPv4+, it cannot be implemented in an interoperable way, and can not be deployed. Elad, this is your avenue: you need to demonstrate two working and interoperating implementations for two host stacks and two router stacks. Just claming "it is easy" is not sufficient. I'm with Christian here: this can not work without significant changes to the BSD socket API, to applications using this API - basically, everything on Unix/Linux - to the Windows networking API, and to routers in the ISP networks that need to decide "which customer is this packet sent to?" based on the extra bit. And I speak with a certain background on implementing network applications, running an ISP network, and debugging TCP/IP stacks. Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc. Gert Doering -- RIPE member -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow. I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences… Time to move on… Sander
Hello Everyone, What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community. Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ? First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM To: Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow. I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences… Time to move on… Sander
Hi,
What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community.
Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ?
This is not the place Elad. Many flaws have been pointed out to you already, but you just dismiss them. Take this to the IETF, you'll feel right at home… * Cheers, Sander * for those who don't follow the IETF, there is an appeal ongoing about IETF chairs and ADs ignoring inconvenient questions and objections
Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences. There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea. Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up? You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won't will it. I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can. How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al. You keep saying it won't be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT. Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP's will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers? Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly? Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don't stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Elad Cohen Sent: 26 April 2020 10:37 To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hello Everyone, What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community. Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ? First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM To: Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow. I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences... Time to move on... Sander
Stuart, I don't have any trouble convincing you, the people that responded are not reflecting the opinion of the vast majority of internet companies and internet organizations - which needs IPv4. Each and every person that I wasn't able to convince as you wrote is an active deployer of IPv6 and earns his money from deploying IPv6. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:46 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences. There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea. Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up? You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won’t will it. I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can. How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al. You keep saying it won’t be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT. Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP’s will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers? Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly? Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don’t stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Elad Cohen Sent: 26 April 2020 10:37 To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hello Everyone, What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community. Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ? First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM To: Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow. I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences… Time to move on… Sander
Elad, I am against your idea, you have not won me over and I don't think you are likely to. I have repeatedly said this will not work. It's a nice idea, and would have had promise if it was introduced before IPv6 but as things stand today, you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresses. As I said, if you are having this much trouble introducing it to us, you don't stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] Sent: 26 April 2020 10:59 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Stuart, I don't have any trouble convincing you, the people that responded are not reflecting the opinion of the vast majority of internet companies and internet organizations - which needs IPv4. Each and every person that I wasn't able to convince as you wrote is an active deployer of IPv6 and earns his money from deploying IPv6. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:46 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences. There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea. Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up? You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won't will it. I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can. How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al. You keep saying it won't be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT. Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP's will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers? Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly? Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don't stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Elad Cohen Sent: 26 April 2020 10:37 To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hello Everyone, What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community. Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ? First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM To: Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow. I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences... Time to move on... Sander
But you didn't understand IPv4+ based on what you are writing or you are trying to influence the readers... First fully understand something, then decide if you are against it or not. Regarding: "you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresse" No hardware upgrades will be need, only software updates and the software developers (operating system vendors and routing equipment manufacturers) will receive incentives. End-users / companies / organizations - will need to invest nothing. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:02 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Elad, I am against your idea, you have not won me over and I don’t think you are likely to. I have repeatedly said this will not work. It’s a nice idea, and would have had promise if it was introduced before IPv6 but as things stand today, you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresses. As I said, if you are having this much trouble introducing it to us, you don’t stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] Sent: 26 April 2020 10:59 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Stuart, I don't have any trouble convincing you, the people that responded are not reflecting the opinion of the vast majority of internet companies and internet organizations - which needs IPv4. Each and every person that I wasn't able to convince as you wrote is an active deployer of IPv6 and earns his money from deploying IPv6. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:46 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences. There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea. Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up? You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won’t will it. I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can. How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al. You keep saying it won’t be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT. Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP’s will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers? Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly? Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don’t stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Elad Cohen Sent: 26 April 2020 10:37 To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hello Everyone, What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community. Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ? First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM To: Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow. I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences… Time to move on… Sander
How will you "software update" my home BT modem? How will you "software update" the end of life routing and switching equipment? And, most importantly, who will pay for development and rollout? From: Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] Sent: 26 April 2020 11:06 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world But you didn't understand IPv4+ based on what you are writing or you are trying to influence the readers... First fully understand something, then decide if you are against it or not. Regarding: "you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresse" No hardware upgrades will be need, only software updates and the software developers (operating system vendors and routing equipment manufacturers) will receive incentives. End-users / companies / organizations - will need to invest nothing. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:02 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Elad, I am against your idea, you have not won me over and I don't think you are likely to. I have repeatedly said this will not work. It's a nice idea, and would have had promise if it was introduced before IPv6 but as things stand today, you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresses. As I said, if you are having this much trouble introducing it to us, you don't stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] Sent: 26 April 2020 10:59 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Stuart, I don't have any trouble convincing you, the people that responded are not reflecting the opinion of the vast majority of internet companies and internet organizations - which needs IPv4. Each and every person that I wasn't able to convince as you wrote is an active deployer of IPv6 and earns his money from deploying IPv6. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:46 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences. There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea. Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up? You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won't will it. I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can. How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al. You keep saying it won't be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT. Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP's will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers? Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly? Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don't stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Elad Cohen Sent: 26 April 2020 10:37 To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hello Everyone, What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community. Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ? First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM To: Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow. I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences... Time to move on... Sander
Your home BT modem doesn't need to have any software update and will work 100% with IPv4+. End of life switching equipment is layer 2 and hence not related to IP and irrelevant and will not need to to be updated at all. Regarding end of life routing equipment - if it is a router with no more than two physical routes - then it will not need to be updated at all - otherwise IT technician should do what it can in the network design for the specific marginal end of life routing equipment to have two physical routes if we want IPv4+ packets to go over properly through it, for example to switch that router with another not end-of-life router that can be upgraded while the new location of the end of life router will not have more than two physical routes. Creativity needs to come in here. This is a marginal case. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:07 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world How will you “software update” my home BT modem? How will you “software update” the end of life routing and switching equipment? And, most importantly, who will pay for development and rollout? From: Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] Sent: 26 April 2020 11:06 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world But you didn't understand IPv4+ based on what you are writing or you are trying to influence the readers... First fully understand something, then decide if you are against it or not. Regarding: "you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresse" No hardware upgrades will be need, only software updates and the software developers (operating system vendors and routing equipment manufacturers) will receive incentives. End-users / companies / organizations - will need to invest nothing. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:02 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Elad, I am against your idea, you have not won me over and I don’t think you are likely to. I have repeatedly said this will not work. It’s a nice idea, and would have had promise if it was introduced before IPv6 but as things stand today, you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresses. As I said, if you are having this much trouble introducing it to us, you don’t stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] Sent: 26 April 2020 10:59 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Stuart, I don't have any trouble convincing you, the people that responded are not reflecting the opinion of the vast majority of internet companies and internet organizations - which needs IPv4. Each and every person that I wasn't able to convince as you wrote is an active deployer of IPv6 and earns his money from deploying IPv6. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:46 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences. There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea. Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up? You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won’t will it. I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can. How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al. You keep saying it won’t be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT. Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP’s will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers? Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly? Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don’t stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Elad Cohen Sent: 26 April 2020 10:37 To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hello Everyone, What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community. Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ? First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM To: Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow. I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences… Time to move on… Sander
Elad, You must know that all routing on the isp level is done in dedicated hardware with specifically made chips. These routers will all need new line cards at the minimum. Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io> skrev: (26 april 2020 12:05:45 CEST)
But you didn't understand IPv4+ based on what you are writing or you are trying to influence the readers...
First fully understand something, then decide if you are against it or not.
Regarding: "you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresse"
No hardware upgrades will be need, only software updates and the software developers (operating system vendors and routing equipment manufacturers) will receive incentives. End-users / companies / organizations - will need to invest nothing.
Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:02 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Elad,
I am against your idea, you have not won me over and I don’t think you are likely to.
I have repeatedly said this will not work.
It’s a nice idea, and would have had promise if it was introduced before IPv6 but as things stand today, you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresses.
As I said, if you are having this much trouble introducing it to us, you don’t stand a chance.
Best,
Stuart Willet.
From: Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] Sent: 26 April 2020 10:59 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Stuart,
I don't have any trouble convincing you, the people that responded are not reflecting the opinion of the vast majority of internet companies and internet organizations - which needs IPv4.
Each and every person that I wasn't able to convince as you wrote is an active deployer of IPv6 and earns his money from deploying IPv6.
Respectfully,
Elad
________________________________
From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:46 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences.
There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea.
Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up?
You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won’t will it.
I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address.
Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can.
How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al.
You keep saying it won’t be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT.
Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP’s will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers?
Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly?
Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don’t stand a chance.
Best,
Stuart Willet.
From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Elad Cohen Sent: 26 April 2020 10:37 To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hello Everyone,
What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community.
Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ?
First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans.
Respectfully,
Elad
________________________________
From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM To: Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow.
I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences…
Time to move on… Sander
-- Skickat från min Android-enhet med K-9 Mail. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Hi all, Here is my two cents. I think we should follow the RFC process. Write down all the engineral proposal, request for comments, rewrite accordingly, rinse and repeat, when it's mature discuss it with IETF, got an official RFC number and help people who want to implement it. There will always be people for are for or against, it's pointless to try to convince everyone. All ideas have value, some more than others. L. Le dim. 26 avr. 2020 à 13:02, Peter Linder <peter@fiberdirekt.se> a écrit :
Elad,
You must know that all routing on the isp level is done in dedicated hardware with specifically made chips. These routers will all need new line cards at the minimum.
Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io> skrev: (26 april 2020 12:05:45 CEST)
But you didn't understand IPv4+ based on what you are writing or you are trying to influence the readers...
First fully understand something, then decide if you are against it or not.
Regarding: "you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresse"
No hardware upgrades will be need, only software updates and the software developers (operating system vendors and routing equipment manufacturers) will receive incentives. End-users / companies / organizations - will need to invest nothing.
Respectfully, Elad ------------------------------ *From:* Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:02 PM *To:* Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> *Subject:* RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Elad,
I am against your idea, you have not won me over and I don’t think you are likely to.
I have repeatedly said this will not work.
It’s a nice idea, and would have had promise if it was introduced before IPv6 but as things stand today, you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresses.
As I said, if you are having this much trouble introducing it to us, you don’t stand a chance.
Best,
Stuart Willet.
*From:* Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] *Sent:* 26 April 2020 10:59 *To:* Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk>; Sander Steffann < sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Stuart,
I don't have any trouble convincing you, the people that responded are not reflecting the opinion of the vast majority of internet companies and internet organizations - which needs IPv4.
Each and every person that I wasn't able to convince as you wrote is an active deployer of IPv6 and earns his money from deploying IPv6.
Respectfully,
Elad ------------------------------
*From:* Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:46 PM *To:* Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> *Subject:* RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences.
There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea.
Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up?
You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won’t will it.
I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address.
Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can.
How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al.
You keep saying it won’t be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT.
Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP’s will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers?
Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly?
Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don’t stand a chance.
Best,
Stuart Willet.
*From:* members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>] *On Behalf Of *Elad Cohen *Sent:* 26 April 2020 10:37 *To:* Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hello Everyone,
What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community.
Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ?
First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans.
Respectfully,
Elad ------------------------------
*From:* members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM *To:* Gert Döring <gert@space.net> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow.
I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences…
Time to move on… Sander
-- Skickat från min Android-enhet med K-9 Mail. Ursäkta min fåordighet. _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/laurent.seror%40outsc...
Serveral varieties of this idea was proposed when Ipv6 was bring discussed decades ago. There was even some patenting going on. Those ideas were discarded then and this has no chance today. "Stuart Willet (primary)" <stu@safehosts.co.uk> skrev: (26 april 2020 12:02:23 CEST)
Elad,
I am against your idea, you have not won me over and I don't think you are likely to. I have repeatedly said this will not work.
It's a nice idea, and would have had promise if it was introduced before IPv6 but as things stand today, you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresses.
As I said, if you are having this much trouble introducing it to us, you don't stand a chance.
Best,
Stuart Willet.
From: Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] Sent: 26 April 2020 10:59 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Stuart,
I don't have any trouble convincing you, the people that responded are not reflecting the opinion of the vast majority of internet companies and internet organizations - which needs IPv4.
Each and every person that I wasn't able to convince as you wrote is an active deployer of IPv6 and earns his money from deploying IPv6.
Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:46 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences.
There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea.
Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up?
You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won't will it.
I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address.
Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can.
How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al.
You keep saying it won't be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT.
Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP's will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers?
Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly?
Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don't stand a chance.
Best,
Stuart Willet.
From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Elad Cohen Sent: 26 April 2020 10:37 To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hello Everyone,
What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community.
Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ?
First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans.
Respectfully,
Elad
________________________________
From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM To: Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow.
I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences...
Time to move on... Sander
-- Skickat från min Android-enhet med K-9 Mail. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Peter, I didn't see what I wrote anywhere else, can you provide a link? Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Peter Linder <peter@fiberdirekt.se> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 1:39 PM To: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net>; Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk>; Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Serveral varieties of this idea was proposed when Ipv6 was bring discussed decades ago. There was even some patenting going on. Those ideas were discarded then and this has no chance today. "Stuart Willet (primary)" <stu@safehosts.co.uk> skrev: (26 april 2020 12:02:23 CEST) Elad, I am against your idea, you have not won me over and I don’t think you are likely to. I have repeatedly said this will not work. It’s a nice idea, and would have had promise if it was introduced before IPv6 but as things stand today, you want millions of dollars spent on millions of upgrades for a handful of new IPv4 addresses. As I said, if you are having this much trouble introducing it to us, you don’t stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: Elad Cohen [mailto:elad@netstyle.io] Sent: 26 April 2020 10:59 To: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Stuart, I don't have any trouble convincing you, the people that responded are not reflecting the opinion of the vast majority of internet companies and internet organizations - which needs IPv4. Each and every person that I wasn't able to convince as you wrote is an active deployer of IPv6 and earns his money from deploying IPv6. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk<mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:46 PM To: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io<mailto:elad@netstyle.io>>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences. There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea. Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up? You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won’t will it. I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can. How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al. You keep saying it won’t be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT. Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP’s will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers? Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly? Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don’t stand a chance. Best, Stuart Willet. From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Elad Cohen Sent: 26 April 2020 10:37 To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hello Everyone, What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community. Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ? First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans. Respectfully, Elad ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl<mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM To: Gert Döring <gert@space.net<mailto:gert@space.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow. I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences… Time to move on… Sander -- Skickat från min Android-enhet med K-9 Mail. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
People dont need IPv4 - people need address space, and there IS a next-gen protocol. Your idea is just a little late, lets say by 20 years :) Regards. Am 26.04.2020 um 11:58 schrieb Elad Cohen:
Stuart,
I don't have any trouble convincing you, the people that responded are not reflecting the opinion of the vast majority of internet companies and internet organizations - which needs IPv4.
Each and every person that I wasn't able to convince as you wrote is an active deployer of IPv6 and earns his money from deploying IPv6.
Respectfully, Elad ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:46 PM *To:* Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> *Subject:* RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences.
There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea.
Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up?
You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won’t will it.
I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address.
Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can.
How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al.
You keep saying it won’t be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT.
Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP’s will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers?
Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly?
Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don’t stand a chance.
Best,
Stuart Willet.
*From:*members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Elad Cohen *Sent:* 26 April 2020 10:37 *To:* Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hello Everyone,
What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community.
Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ?
First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans.
Respectfully,
Elad
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl <mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM *To:* Gert Döring <gert@space.net <mailto:gert@space.net>> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow.
I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences…
Time to move on… Sander
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/mail%40lseitz.de
-- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Lennart Seitz PGP-Schlüssel: 0x00165284eb3f775d (https://pgp.lseitz.de/key.asc) --
Hi! I am working for a small ISP in Germany with providing internet to businesses, operating datacenters and FTTH/FTTC. You have not won me over either. I have the following remarks to your proposal: - You say, that there is simply the reserved bit has to be switched to "1". Simply changing a value which has ever been "0" could and will break things on unclean implementations of the IPv4 protocol. So even if devices should not need updates, they could see some unexpected header-value in there IPv4+ packets just flowing through. - You are stressing automatic updates of the OSs in the world. In a perfect world you may have the posibility to get updates and patches fast to the end-users. But this is not. You have old computer/versions or simply companies and peoiple, who are not updating there software regualarily (i.e. to not break things / test updates thoeoughly) - You are relying on the power of the end user, if they are unable to reach a site. This is the problem with v6 at the moment also. The content providers are not going to be in danger, that their customers are unable to reach their site. If that would be the case, Google or Facebook could just switch of there IPv4 connectivity and only be reachable via v6. But there is money involved. You have requested comments on your idea and you have got them. I would be interessted in your benefit from such an implementation? You will not get new IPv4(+)-addresses within the next two months. As already stated, the RIPE can not implement this. Why are you unable to be happy with IPv6? Where are your problems? We have redesigned our network 4 years ago and we have no problems with IPv6. Matthias Am 26.04.20 um 11:58 schrieb Elad Cohen:
Stuart,
I don't have any trouble convincing you, the people that responded are not reflecting the opinion of the vast majority of internet companies and internet organizations - which needs IPv4.
Each and every person that I wasn't able to convince as you wrote is an active deployer of IPv6 and earns his money from deploying IPv6.
Respectfully, Elad ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* Stuart Willet (primary) <stu@safehosts.co.uk> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:46 PM *To:* Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> *Subject:* RE: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Respectfully Elad, you are pushing your idea without considering the consequences.
There is no operation against you, we are just trying to point out the flaws in your idea.
Just consider this, you are currently speaking with the group that will inevitably be the ones to roll out your idea. If you are having this much trouble convincing us this is a good idea, how would the rest of the world hold up?
You keep saying this will work with existing IPv4 but it simply won’t will it.
I have a home internet connection provided by BT. They give me an IPv4 and an IPv6 address.
Traffic preferences IPv6 where it can.
How would IPv4+ be added in this scenario? Simple, a firmware update would need to be made on my router. And every router for every other BT customer. Same will apply for VirginMedia et-al.
You keep saying it won’t be needed unless there is NAT, but most home routers use NAT.
Please explain to me how you think Microsoft are going to spend millions on your upgrade for zero benefit to them? Please explain how ISP’s will recall and replace millions of set top boxes and modems? Please explain how upgrades are going to be done on end of life switches and routers?
Please explain how every DNS server on the planet will be upgraded seamlessly?
Seriously, if you are having this hard a time winning us over, you don’t stand a chance.
Best,
Stuart Willet.
*From:*members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Elad Cohen *Sent:* 26 April 2020 10:37 *To:* Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Gert Döring <gert@space.net> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hello Everyone,
What being done here is a cyber influence operation against me, after I'm only trying to do good to the community.
Sander, you didn't mention any flaws, can you please write them here and I will answer each and every one of them ?
First there was the IPv6 fans and now there are the Spamhaus fans.
Respectfully,
Elad
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl <mailto:sander@steffann.nl>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:28 PM *To:* Gert Döring <gert@space.net <mailto:gert@space.net>> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Technical solution to resolve the IPv4 Exhaustion problem and to add more 4, 294, 967, 296 IPv4 addresses that are needed in the world
Hi,
On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:51:13AM +0200, Bruno Cordioli wrote:
I think it is appropriate to close this discussion here. Elad will eventually submit his proposed al RIPE meeting or he'll write a RFC.
Basically, this.
Seconded
[...]
Overall, as long as no implementations can be provided (source code on github etc) this sounds like a somewhat cheap shot to make people believe you're going to solve their IPv4 problems if they just vote you to the NCC executive board. And I hope the NCC members are smart enough to not vote based on glorious promises, but on track record, provable background, etc.
I have contacted Elad off-list and shown him many fallacies in his design. He insisted implementation and deployment of IPv4+ was easy. I told him he is delusional and that I emailed him off-list as not to shame him publicly, and all he said was:
Go ahead, shame me publicly and you will receive the exact same answers, you are obviously have interests regarding IPv6 and you are trying to avoid from the world more IPv4 addresses just for your own personal profit.
You are obviously have illegal interests in Ripe and this is the only reasons for your emails to me.
There is no talking sense into this person. He is oblivious to how the internet works and how hardware and software upgrades are implemented and deployed. Obviously pointing out his flaws means I have an illegal interest somehow.
I think Elad has already tried following Trump's recent advice and we are seeing the consequences…
Time to move on… Sander
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/matthias%40brumm.net
-- Unser Familien-Blog: https://brumm.family
participants (11)
-
Bruno Cordioli -
Christian Kratzer -
Elad Cohen -
Gert Doering -
Laurent Seror -
Lennart Seitz -
Matthias Brumm -
Peter Linder -
Sander Steffann -
Stuart Willet (primary) -
Tobias Lehner