billing problem on multiple lir accounts.
hi we have multiple accounts. one account is going to be closed by december 2018, and we are trying to transfer /22 to another account. ripe says, WE HAVE TO PAY FOR ALL ACCOUNTS FOR 2018 its huge mistake. for example: you have; uk.company 04-04-2016 uk.company1 05-05-2018 uk.company2 06-06-2018 uk.company3 07-07-2018 and you wanted to transfer /22 from uk.company to uk.company3 ripe wants payments for uk.company1 and uk.company2 as well. ticket ids: #138277, #137978 who will help me solve this problem? they allowed us to create multiple accounts to prevent manipulations on votes, then trying to charge more. they are replying tickets 1 day later.
Well you will either have to pay for the remaining accounts the fee. They just ask the money sooner than later. What is the problem here? — Petru Bunea / CEO suport@bunea.eu / +40752481282 Bunea TELECOM / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT http://www.bunea.eu / +40745495495
On 12 Dec 2018, at 15:40, Goriweb LLC <goriweb@sayfa.net> wrote:
hi
we have multiple accounts.
one account is going to be closed by december 2018, and we are trying to transfer /22 to another account.
ripe says, WE HAVE TO PAY FOR ALL ACCOUNTS FOR 2018
its huge mistake.
for example:
you have;
uk.company 04-04-2016 uk.company1 05-05-2018 uk.company2 06-06-2018 uk.company3 07-07-2018
and you wanted to transfer /22 from uk.company to uk.company3
ripe wants payments for uk.company1 and uk.company2 as well.
ticket ids: #138277, #137978
who will help me solve this problem?
they allowed us to create multiple accounts to prevent manipulations on votes, then trying to charge more.
they are replying tickets 1 day later.
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Goriweb LLC пишет 12.12.2018 16:40:
hi Hi,
we have multiple accounts.
one account is going to be closed by december 2018, and we are trying to transfer /22 to another account.
ripe says, WE HAVE TO PAY FOR ALL ACCOUNTS FOR 2018
its huge mistake.
for example:
you have;
uk.company 04-04-2016 uk.company1 05-05-2018 uk.company2 06-06-2018 uk.company3 07-07-2018
and you wanted to transfer /22 from uk.company to uk.company3
ripe wants payments for uk.company1 and uk.company2 as well.
ticket ids: #138277, #137978
who will help me solve this problem? It's a question of terms as i know: please see "RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019": "The Independent Internet number resource information for members will be determined based on data gathered on 30 September 2018. All members will be notified of their annual fee for 2019. Invoices will be sent in 2019." Deadline is 30 September 2018 i suppose.
they allowed us to create multiple accounts to prevent manipulations on votes, then trying to charge more.
they are replying tickets 1 day later.
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* CloudHost <nikoladavv@yandex.ru> [2018-12-27 13:13]:
This question discussed earlier, 2 - 3 weeks ago. However nobody did support it until they didn't have the same situation. I hope the NCC will notice that there are many members, who don't agree with the current charging scheme, and will discuss it on the next General Meeting from 20-24 May 2019.
I don't see many members complaining. Regards Sebastian
We do. Regards, Olena On 07.01.2019 9:45, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
* CloudHost <nikoladavv@yandex.ru> [2018-12-27 13:13]:
This question discussed earlier, 2 - 3 weeks ago. However nobody did support it until they didn't have the same situation. I hope the NCC will notice that there are many members, who don't agree with the current charging scheme, and will discuss it on the next General Meeting from 20-24 May 2019.
I don't see many members complaining.
Regards
Sebastian
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On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 22:00:25 +0200 Olena <olena.dmytrenko@bignet.ua> wrote:
We do.
and a lot are silent, because they know the fee and schedule, and plan accordingly. I am a single person freelancer and a LIR, I think the RIPE NCC payment process is pretty as simple as can be, but look forward to the discussion. Fee was even lowered from EUR 1600/y to 1400 recently, as I remember. Best regards Henrik
On 07.01.2019 9:45, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
* CloudHost <nikoladavv@yandex.ru> [2018-12-27 13:13]:
This question discussed earlier, 2 - 3 weeks ago. However nobody did support it until they didn't have the same situation. I hope the NCC will notice that there are many members, who don't agree with the current charging scheme, and will discuss it on the next General Meeting from 20-24 May 2019.
I don't see many members complaining.
Regards
Sebastian
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-- Mvh/Best regards Henrik — Henrik Lund Kramshøj, Follower of the Great Way of Unix internet samurai cand.scient CISSP hlk@kramse.org hlk@zencurity.dk +45 2026 6000
Hi, I do understand both sides: - RIPE wants to keep billing as easy as possible - Some LIRs want a better payment scheme, which allows for better liquidity and money planning Insurance companies have found a way this issue lot of years ago: Private Persons and companies can decide whether to pay on a monthly, quarterly or yearly basis. Since all bookkeeping has effort and costs money and some companies loose interest, the yearly payment term is the cheapest and the monthly the most expensive. I've seen up to 10% extra fees for the monthly payment for insurance policies. As - as I think- RIPE does not want to have troubles with LIRs not paying fees at the end of the year, there may be a way to have one payment at the beginning of the year and one at 1st of July. This would reduce the amount to 50%+50% payments and would reduce the fear of not receiving the money. But of course, more bookings cost more money and not everything can be automated, if e.g. the customers refer to the wrong invoice number or send wrong amounts or forget their customer number etc. And don’t forget, that in some countries, some LIRs have to define the scope of the invoice periodically, e.g. 1/12th, for tax authority or their tax advisor (some local specialties and differences can be found even in the same city 😉) . So why not have an additional booking fee for those, who want to pay on a half-year or even smaller basis? This would compensate the effort. Imho, this could be a compromise. The only other solution I can think of would be an online payment system which would make bookkeeping easier. But I don’t think, we don’t want to pay 2-3% (which roughly 42 € p.a.) to a system like Paypal. And I don’t see any other European bank covering the whole RIPE NCC region…. Cheers, John ---------------------------------------------------------------- John Fitzgerald Interactive Network GmbH MD/Geschaeftsfuehrer Lindleystraße 14 <http://www.internet.de/> http://www.internet.de D-60314 Frankfurt am Main <mailto:john.fitzgerald@internet.de> mailto:john.fitzgerald@internet.de Tel.: +49 69 1336-0 PGP-KEY: on request Fax.: +49 69 1336-1000 HRB 47625 USt.ID-Nr. DE 202192770 Geschäftsführer Ralf Herrmann, John Fitzgerald Handelsregister Amtsgericht Frankfurt am Main Registriert bei Bundesnetzagentur seit 1996 als Internet Service Provider (ISP) ( <http://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/> http://www.bundesnetzagentur.de) Regnr. 96/142 ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Im Auftrag von Henrik Lund Kramshøj Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Januar 2019 11:20 An: members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] billing problem on multiple lir accounts. On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 22:00:25 +0200 Olena < <mailto:olena.dmytrenko@bignet.ua> olena.dmytrenko@bignet.ua> wrote:
We do.
and a lot are silent, because they know the fee and schedule, and plan accordingly. I am a single person freelancer and a LIR, I think the RIPE NCC payment process is pretty as simple as can be, but look forward to the discussion. Fee was even lowered from EUR 1600/y to 1400 recently, as I remember. Best regards Henrik
On 07.01.2019 9:45, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
* CloudHost < <mailto:nikoladavv@yandex.ru> nikoladavv@yandex.ru> [2018-12-27 13:13]:
This question discussed earlier, 2 - 3 weeks ago. However
nobody did support it until they didn't have the same situation. I
hope the NCC will notice that there are many members, who don't
agree with the current charging scheme, and will discuss it on the
next General Meeting from 20-24 May 2019.
I don't see many members complaining.
Regards
Sebastian
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-- Mvh/Best regards Henrik — Henrik Lund Kramshøj, Follower of the Great Way of Unix internet samurai cand.scient CISSP <mailto:hlk@kramse.org> hlk@kramse.org <mailto:hlk@zencurity.dk> hlk@zencurity.dk +45 2026 6000 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> members-discuss@ripe.net <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/john.fitzgerald%40internet.de> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/john.fitzgerald%40int...
Dear Sebastian, I am not happy with this decision. This is too large a one-time fee. Especially for our country. Alexander 7 січня 2019, 10:54:24, від "Sebastian Wiesinger" <sebastian.wiesinger@noris.net>: * CloudHost <nikoladavv@yandex.ru> [2018-12-27 13:13]:
This question discussed earlier, 2 - 3 weeks ago. However nobody did support it until they didn't have the same situation. I hope the NCC will notice that there are many members, who don't agree with the current charging scheme, and will discuss it on the next General Meeting from 20-24 May 2019.
I don't see many members complaining. Regards Sebastian _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/buzaev.weecomi%40ukr....
* Alexander Buzaev <buzaev.weecomi@ukr.net> [2019-01-08 08:22]:
Dear Sebastian, I am not happy with this decision. This is too large a one-time fee. Especially for our country.
Hi Alexander, that might be, but you're not "many members". As for a too large one-time fee, the paragraph adressed this: The Executive Board supported the implementation of an enhanced billing cycle and instructs the RIPE NCC Management to implement a yearly billing process, including payment options for members with cash flow limitations. You should ask the RIPE NCC what the available payment options are in your case. Regards Sebastian
Hi, I do not agree with this decision! -- Regards Ivashchenko Stanislav 7 січня 2019, 10:53:06, від "Sebastian Wiesinger" <sebastian.wiesinger@noris.net>: * CloudHost <nikoladavv@yandex.ru> [2018-12-27 13:13]:
This question discussed earlier, 2 - 3 weeks ago. However nobody did support it until they didn't have the same situation. I hope the NCC will notice that there are many members, who don't agree with the current charging scheme, and will discuss it on the next General Meeting from 20-24 May 2019.
I don't see many members complaining. Regards Sebastian _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ivashchenko.levelserv...
Hello, Any case I hope that a lot of members read. Unfortunately mailing lists are not the best way for discussions but we have to follow it because of no choice. I've heard a lot of voices was just about IPv4 stuff. But I am talking about bugs in billing and bad algorithms. For those who think just in "v4" reality I am ready to give another fresh example about IPv6. Example: It was request form my LIR to make transfer of v6 range at the end of 2018. As far as everybody knows IPv6 and 32bit ASNs doesn't have any limitation for transfers (!). RIPE NCC was glad to get ticket for processing and billing department suggested to issue extra invoices for ~6kEUR to make this transfer happen because of bad rules inside the billing department. Here we can see how RIPE NCC stepped on their own tail. What I can see here? RIPE NCC cry that they have a lot of extra work with invoicing and they cancel billing per 3 month. But this example shows how they make useless work by themselves. Of course there is no any economical reason to pay extra invoices to RIPE NCC and it was better to wait 2 extra weeks till 2019 and let this transfer happen. But RIPE NCC stuff spend there time on request. Here I show that RIPE NCC is not optimal and it's too bureaucratic. I am talking here about useless issues that RIPE NCC invented by themselves. I want and I suggest to improve RIPE NCC to make there work easier and make members feel more comfortable. I don't understand people who are not agree that RIPE NCC should fix issues. Ideas I suggest do no harm anyone. They give clear and correct and easy way for RIPE NCC to bill members and members get clear and understandable billing. RIPE NCC has 20,693 right now. This amount of customers is very small for IT company. RIPE NCC doest do any extra services for customers, they just keep database. I don't see any problem to make pdf/website invoices for companies and program clear and suitable way for payments. I don't understand why RIPE NCC spend so much human resources (and let a lot of human mistakes!) for billing services. Happy New 2019 Year everybody! Juri On 07.01.2019 10:45, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
* CloudHost <nikoladavv@yandex.ru> [2018-12-27 13:13]:
This question discussed earlier, 2 - 3 weeks ago. However nobody did support it until they didn't have the same situation. I hope the NCC will notice that there are many members, who don't agree with the current charging scheme, and will discuss it on the next General Meeting from 20-24 May 2019.
I don't see many members complaining.
Regards
Sebastian
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-- Juri +7 (499) 346-76-29
Hi. Also the NCC could make agreement by means of check box on web site and don't spend so much time and human resources for the SSA or Additional LIR Agreement printing and sending by DHL. Another question: the DHL post wants 100 euro for it's services one way from Amsterdam to Moscow. Total 200 euro for round trip. To account creation, the invoice price cannot be more than 500 euro. So we have 700 euro, but it is not 2000 euro. More over some members from EU pay additional VAT 20%. Also the NCC could cancel the membership payment for the quarter, when the new member account was created. But the non commercial organization cares about IPv4 pool for new business and takes all efforts for it. вт, 8 янв. 2019 г., 14:18 Juri hostmaster@ntx.ru:
Hello,
Any case I hope that a lot of members read. Unfortunately mailing lists are not the best way for discussions but we have to follow it because of no choice.
I've heard a lot of voices was just about IPv4 stuff. But I am talking about bugs in billing and bad algorithms.
For those who think just in "v4" reality I am ready to give another fresh example about IPv6.
Example: It was request form my LIR to make transfer of v6 range at the end of 2018. As far as everybody knows IPv6 and 32bit ASNs doesn't have any limitation for transfers (!). RIPE NCC was glad to get ticket for processing and billing department suggested to issue extra invoices for ~6kEUR to make this transfer happen because of bad rules inside the billing department. Here we can see how RIPE NCC stepped on their own tail.
What I can see here? RIPE NCC cry that they have a lot of extra work with invoicing and they cancel billing per 3 month. But this example shows how they make useless work by themselves. Of course there is no any economical reason to pay extra invoices to RIPE NCC and it was better to wait 2 extra weeks till 2019 and let this transfer happen. But RIPE NCC stuff spend there time on request.
Here I show that RIPE NCC is not optimal and it's too bureaucratic. I am talking here about useless issues that RIPE NCC invented by themselves.
I want and I suggest to improve RIPE NCC to make there work easier and make members feel more comfortable.
I don't understand people who are not agree that RIPE NCC should fix issues. Ideas I suggest do no harm anyone. They give clear and correct and easy way for RIPE NCC to bill members and members get clear and understandable billing.
RIPE NCC has 20,693 right now. This amount of customers is very small for IT company. RIPE NCC doest do any extra services for customers, they just keep database. I don't see any problem to make pdf/website invoices for companies and program clear and suitable way for payments. I don't understand why RIPE NCC spend so much human resources (and let a lot of human mistakes!) for billing services.
Happy New 2019 Year everybody!
Juri
On 07.01.2019 10:45, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
* CloudHost <nikoladavv@yandex.ru> [2018-12-27 13:13]:
This question discussed earlier, 2 - 3 weeks ago. However nobody did support it until they didn't have the same situation. I hope the NCC will notice that there are many members, who don't agree with the current charging scheme, and will discuss it on the next General Meeting from 20-24 May 2019.
I don't see many members complaining.
Regards
Sebastian
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-- Juri +7 (499) 346-76-29
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Aleksey Bulgakov wrote on 08/01/2019 14:55:
Another question: the DHL post wants 100 euro for it's services one way from Amsterdam to Moscow. Total 200 euro for round trip. To account creation, the invoice price cannot be more than 500 euro. So we have 700 euro, but it is not 2000 euro. More over some members from EU pay additional VAT 20%.
Aleksey, Is there much of a difference between the total cost today for a /22 from the RIPE NCC compared to, say, 2015? Do you have figures on this? Nick
Hi. Today the price for one /22 is 2000+1400*3=6200 euro. In 2015 it was 2000+430 = 2430.
Aleksey,
Is there much of a difference between the total cost today for a /22 from the RIPE NCC compared to, say, 2015? Do you have figures on this?
Nick
-- ---------- Best regards, Alexey Bulgakov
Aleksey Bulgakov wrote on 08/01/2019 20:53:
Today the price for one /22 is 2000+1400*3=6200 euro. In 2015 it was 2000+430 = 2430.
In 2015, you opened up 50 LIRs in your own name, registered a /22 in each, then resold all the address space, then closed down all the LIRs. Are you complaining that it's no longer as financially attractive to do this sort of thing as it used to be? Or are you complaining that you don't have any of this address space any longer and that because the RIPE NCC closed off the holes to stop this sort of abuse happening in the first place, address space is now more expensive for everyone? Nick
I do. we are undergoing the same request due a resource trasfer with the offering parties that's going to close. regards -- Angelo Il 07/01/19 08:45, Sebastian Wiesinger ha scritto:
* CloudHost <nikoladavv@yandex.ru> [2018-12-27 13:13]:
This question discussed earlier, 2 - 3 weeks ago. However nobody did support it until they didn't have the same situation. I hope the NCC will notice that there are many members, who don't agree with the current charging scheme, and will discuss it on the next General Meeting from 20-24 May 2019.
I don't see many members complaining.
Regards
Sebastian
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* Angelo Broccoli <angelo.broccoli@topnet.it> [2019-01-09 11:10]:
I do.
we are undergoing the same request due a resource trasfer with the offering parties that's going to close.
Yes some people do, but we have over 20k LIRs. That means in perspective that very few people are complaining. I'm not saying noone does. Many of those that complain (and I'm not saying you are one of them) are complaining because then want more IPv4 space for cheap/free which is simply not possible. They can go to the open market or accept that there simply isn't enough and think about how to manage that. Instead we have this tiresome discussions every bloody time there is a change to close loopholes that these marvelous entrepreneurs try to use. Regards Sebastian
Perhaps a RIPE policy should be modified so there is no financial incentive to find loopholes and try to game the system, so this unwanted behavior would stop. For example, one-time sign-up fee for every new LIR could be bumped up, so that it is (for example) 50% more expensive than buying average /22 of IPv4 on the open market. (it could updated once a year or so if needed) Optionally, this one-time price could be significantly reduced if new LIR forfeits its /22 of IPv4 from RIPE (opting instead to get smaller range elsewhere or even eventually go IPv6 only) If new LIR is in it for legit business, it won't be such a big deal (especially as all other similar competitors on the market will have to do the same). But if they want to become LIR *ONLY* so they buy and resold IPv4 addressspace for profit, it won't be interesting to them anymore. It also shouldn't case problems for existing members (as it won't affect them). Regards, Matija On Wed, Jan 09, 2019 at 11:27:40AM +0100, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
* Angelo Broccoli <angelo.broccoli@topnet.it> [2019-01-09 11:10]:
I do.
we are undergoing the same request due a resource trasfer with the offering parties that's going to close.
Yes some people do, but we have over 20k LIRs. That means in perspective that very few people are complaining. I'm not saying noone does.
Many of those that complain (and I'm not saying you are one of them) are complaining because then want more IPv4 space for cheap/free which is simply not possible. They can go to the open market or accept that there simply isn't enough and think about how to manage that.
Instead we have this tiresome discussions every bloody time there is a change to close loopholes that these marvelous entrepreneurs try to use.
Regards Sebastian
-- Opinions above are GNU-copylefted.
Amen! Von meinem Samsung Galaxy Smartphone gesendet. -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------Von: Sebastian Wiesinger <sebastian.wiesinger@noris.net> Datum: 09.01.19 13:27 (GMT+03:00) An: members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] billing problem on multiple lir accounts. * Angelo Broccoli <angelo.broccoli@topnet.it> [2019-01-09 11:10]:
I do.
we are undergoing the same request due a resource trasfer with the offering parties that's going to close.
Yes some people do, but we have over 20k LIRs. That means in perspective that very few people are complaining. I'm not saying noone does. Many of those that complain (and I'm not saying you are one of them) are complaining because then want more IPv4 space for cheap/free which is simply not possible. They can go to the open market or accept that there simply isn't enough and think about how to manage that. Instead we have this tiresome discussions every bloody time there is a change to close loopholes that these marvelous entrepreneurs try to use. Regards Sebastian _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/support%40vhost.tv
participants (17)
-
Aleksey Bulgakov -
Alexander Buzaev -
Angelo Broccoli -
Bunea Petru -
CloudHost -
Goriweb LLC -
Henrik Lund Kramshøj -
John Fitzgerald -
Juri -
Larisa Yurkina -
Matija Nalis -
Nick Hilliard -
Nick Hilliard (Network Ability Ltd)
-
Olena -
Sebastian Wiesinger -
Stanislav Ivashchenko -
support