Re: [members-discuss] [exec-board] ripe-ncc-executive-board-election-task-force-report
Thanks Christian, I missed those. "(b) a signed statement in which he/she declares that he/she shall adhere to the Code of Conduct for candidates for the Executive Board as adopted by the Executive Board and published on the Association’s website, and that he/she has never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction" This is extremely broad. It also opens the possibility that RIPE NCC has to become an arbiter wether or not a certain action of a nominee constitutes fraud (with all the possible liabilities for RIPE NCC in civil court). Legally it would be preferable to just focus on 'outcomes': has there been any verdict against a nominee. Court cases can be won by nominees .. Is the wording deliberate (ie as broad as possible) Ifso have you thought about the above scenario ? -- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221 On Tue, 27-10-2020 16h 36min, "Kaufmann, Christian" <ckaufman@akamai.com> wrote:
Dear Alex, Dear Members, Here you can find the exact wordings and details: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2020/proposed-... and here is the rest of the supporting documents we have sent out before. https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2020/supportin... Hope this helps, Best, Christian Kaufmann RIPE NCC Executive Board From: Alex de Joode <adejoode@idgara.nl>
Reply to: Alex de Joode <adejoode@idgara.nl>
Date: Tuesday, 27. October 2020 at 14:31
To: "members-discuss@ripe.net" <members-discuss@ripe.net>, "exec-board@ripe.net" <exec-board@ripe.net>
Subject: [exec-board] ripe-ncc-executive-board-election-task-force-report The report states: 7. Other requirements of nominees Recommendation It was agreed that the candidates must agree to follow the code of conduct at all times (see point 6 above). The nominee should also sign a statement certifying that they have not committed fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction. This requirement should be added to the Articles of Association. This is very broad as it pertains to behaviour. Normally this is stated as "not being convicted for fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction". So in order to know what we are voting on tomorrow, can the Board show us the exact textual changes we are voting on? Thanks. Alex/(as-spectre) -- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221
Dear Alex, Members, You are right that the wording of the statement "that he/she has never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction" is very broad. This was deliberately done. In principle, RIPE NCC will assume the correctness of the statements provided by the nominees. Therefore, RIPE NCC will not become an arbiter whether or not a certain action of a nominee constitutes fraud. Best regards, Piotr Strzyżewski RIPE NCC Executive Board On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 05:00:44PM +0100, Alex de Joode wrote:
???Thanks Christian,
I missed those.
"(b) a signed statement in which he/she declares that he/she shall adhere to the Code of Conduct for candidates for the Executive Board as adopted by the Executive Board and published on the Association???s website, and that he/she has never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction"
This is extremely broad. It also opens the possibility that RIPE NCC has to become an arbiter wether or not a certain action of a nominee constitutes fraud (with all the possible liabilities for RIPE NCC in civil court). Legally it would be preferable to just focus on 'outcomes': has there been any verdict against a nominee. Court cases can be won by nominees ..
Is the wording deliberate (ie as broad as possible) Ifso have you thought about the above scenario ? ???-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221
On Tue, 27-10-2020 16h 36min, "Kaufmann, Christian" <ckaufman@akamai.com> wrote:
Dear Alex, Dear Members,
Here you can find the exact wordings and details: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2020/proposed-...
and here is the rest of the supporting documents we have sent out before. https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2020/supportin...
Hope this helps,
Best,
Christian Kaufmann RIPE NCC Executive Board
From: Alex de Joode <adejoode@idgara.nl>
Reply to: Alex de Joode <adejoode@idgara.nl>
Date: Tuesday, 27. October 2020 at 14:31
To: "members-discuss@ripe.net" <members-discuss@ripe.net>, "exec-board@ripe.net" <exec-board@ripe.net>
Subject: [exec-board] ripe-ncc-executive-board-election-task-force-report
The report states:
7. Other requirements of nominees Recommendation It was agreed that the candidates must agree to follow the code of conduct at all times (see point 6 above). The nominee should also sign a statement certifying that they have not committed fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction. This requirement should be added to the Articles of Association.???
This is very broad as it pertains to behaviour. Normally this is stated as "not being convicted for fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction".
So in order to know what we are voting on tomorrow, can the Board show us the exact textual changes we are voting on?
Thanks.
Alex/(as-spectre)
???--
IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221
_______________________________________________ Exec-board mailing list Exec-board@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/exec-board
-- Piotr Strzyżewski
Thanks Piotr for clarifying this, It does raise the following question: Say person 1 becomes a nominee, and self certifies "I have never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction". And say person 2 informs the board (at a later state) that a certain IPv4 IP address transaction (by person 1) was done with fraudulent means. How will the board proceed?-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221 On Wed, 28-10-2020 10h 44min, Piotr Strzyzewski <Piotr.Strzyzewski@polsl.pl> wrote:
Dear Alex, Members,
You are right that the wording of the statement "that he/she has never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction" is very broad. This was deliberately done.
In principle, RIPE NCC will assume the correctness of the statements provided by the nominees. Therefore, RIPE NCC will not become an arbiter whether or not a certain action of a nominee constitutes fraud.
Best regards, Piotr Strzyżewski RIPE NCC Executive Board
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 05:00:44PM +0100, Alex de Joode wrote:
???Thanks Christian,
I missed those.
"(b) a signed statement in which he/she declares that he/she shall adhere to the Code of Conduct for candidates for the Executive Board as adopted by the Executive Board and published on the Association???s website, and that he/she has never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction"
This is extremely broad. It also opens the possibility that RIPE NCC has to become an arbiter wether or not a certain action of a nominee constitutes fraud (with all the possible liabilities for RIPE NCC in civil court). Legally it would be preferable to just focus on 'outcomes': has there been any verdict against a nominee. Court cases can be won by nominees ..
Is the wording deliberate (ie as broad as possible) Ifso have you thought about the above scenario ? ???-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221
On Tue, 27-10-2020 16h 36min, " target="_blank">"Kaufmann, Christian" <ckaufman@akamai.com> wrote:
Dear Alex, Dear Members,
Here you can find the exact wordings and details: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2020/proposed-...
and here is the rest of the supporting documents we have sent out before. https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2020/supportin...
Hope this helps,
Best,
Christian Kaufmann RIPE NCC Executive Board
From: Alex de Joode " target="_blank"><adejoode@idgara.nl>
Reply to: Alex de Joode " target="_blank"><adejoode@idgara.nl>
Date: Tuesday, 27. October 2020 at 14:31
To: " target="_blank">"members-discuss@ripe.net" <members-discuss@ripe.net>, " target="_blank">"exec-board@ripe.net" <exec-board@ripe.net>
Subject: [exec-board] ripe-ncc-executive-board-election-task-force-report
The report states:
7. Other requirements of nominees Recommendation It was agreed that the candidates must agree to follow the code of conduct at all times (see point 6 above). The nominee should also sign a statement certifying that they have not committed fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction. This requirement should be added to the Articles of Association.???
This is very broad as it pertains to behaviour. Normally this is stated as "not being convicted for fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction".
So in order to know what we are voting on tomorrow, can the Board show us the exact textual changes we are voting on?
Thanks.
Alex/(as-spectre)
???--
IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221
_______________________________________________ Exec-board mailing list Exec-board@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/exec-board
-- Piotr Strzyżewski
Dear Alex, Sascha, Members, If it turns out a member of the Executive Board committed fraud, while he or she signed a statement saying that he/she had never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction, the Executive Board will ask this member to resign. If this member refuses to step down, the Executive Board should propose to the General Meeting that he or she will be suspended or dismissed. A resolution to suspend or dismiss a member of the Executive Board shall require a majority of at least two thirds of the votes cast (article 9.3 AoA). Best regards, Piotr Strzyżewski RIPE NCC Executive Board On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:56:55AM +0100, Alex de Joode wrote:
???Thanks Piotr for clarifying this,
It does raise the following question:
Say person 1 becomes a nominee, and self certifies "I have never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction". And say person 2 informs the board (at a later state) that a certain IPv4 IP address transaction (by person 1) was done with fraudulent means.
How will the board proceed????-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221
On Wed, 28-10-2020 10h 44min, Piotr Strzyzewski <Piotr.Strzyzewski@polsl.pl> wrote:
Dear Alex, Members,
You are right that the wording of the statement "that he/she has never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction" is very broad. This was deliberately done.
In principle, RIPE NCC will assume the correctness of the statements provided by the nominees. Therefore, RIPE NCC will not become an arbiter whether or not a certain action of a nominee constitutes fraud.
Best regards, Piotr Strzyżewski RIPE NCC Executive Board
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 05:00:44PM +0100, Alex de Joode wrote:
???Thanks Christian,
I missed those.
"(b) a signed statement in which he/she declares that he/she shall adhere to the Code of Conduct for candidates for the Executive Board as adopted by the Executive Board and published on the Association???s website, and that he/she has never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction"
This is extremely broad. It also opens the possibility that RIPE NCC has to become an arbiter wether or not a certain action of a nominee constitutes fraud (with all the possible liabilities for RIPE NCC in civil court). Legally it would be preferable to just focus on 'outcomes': has there been any verdict against a nominee. Court cases can be won by nominees ..
Is the wording deliberate (ie as broad as possible) Ifso have you thought about the above scenario ? ???-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221
On Tue, 27-10-2020 16h 36min, " target="_blank">"Kaufmann, Christian" <ckaufman@akamai.com> wrote:
Dear Alex, Dear Members,
Here you can find the exact wordings and details: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2020/proposed-...
and here is the rest of the supporting documents we have sent out before. https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2020/supportin...
Hope this helps,
Best,
Christian Kaufmann RIPE NCC Executive Board
From: Alex de Joode " target="_blank"><adejoode@idgara.nl>
Reply to: Alex de Joode " target="_blank"><adejoode@idgara.nl>
Date: Tuesday, 27. October 2020 at 14:31
To: " target="_blank">"members-discuss@ripe.net" <members-discuss@ripe.net>, " target="_blank">"exec-board@ripe.net" <exec-board@ripe.net>
Subject: [exec-board] ripe-ncc-executive-board-election-task-force-report
The report states:
7. Other requirements of nominees Recommendation It was agreed that the candidates must agree to follow the code of conduct at all times (see point 6 above). The nominee should also sign a statement certifying that they have not committed fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction. This requirement should be added to the Articles of Association.???
This is very broad as it pertains to behaviour. Normally this is stated as "not being convicted for fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction".
So in order to know what we are voting on tomorrow, can the Board show us the exact textual changes we are voting on?
Thanks.
Alex/(as-spectre)
???--
IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221
_______________________________________________ Exec-board mailing list Exec-board@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/exec-board
-- Piotr Strzyżewski
-- Piotr Strzyżewski
Dear Piotr, That is an outcome, the question is what will happen if a third person raises the issue of fraud wrt the nominee. Will the Board/RIPE NCC investigate? If there is no verdict will the Board come a conclusion of their own (yes/no fraud in this case) and thus act as an arbiter?-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221 On Wed, 28-10-2020 17h 03min, Piotr Strzyzewski <Piotr.Strzyzewski@polsl.pl> wrote:
Dear Alex, Sascha, Members,
If it turns out a member of the Executive Board committed fraud, while he or she signed a statement saying that he/she had never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction, the Executive Board will ask this member to resign. If this member refuses to step down, the Executive Board should propose to the General Meeting that he or she will be suspended or dismissed. A resolution to suspend or dismiss a member of the Executive Board shall require a majority of at least two thirds of the votes cast (article 9.3 AoA).
Best regards, Piotr Strzyżewski RIPE NCC Executive Board
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:56:55AM +0100, Alex de Joode wrote:
???Thanks Piotr for clarifying this,
It does raise the following question:
Say person 1 becomes a nominee, and self certifies "I have never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction". And say person 2 informs the board (at a later state) that a certain IPv4 IP address transaction (by person 1) was done with fraudulent means.
How will the board proceed????-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221
On Wed, 28-10-2020 10h 44min, Piotr Strzyzewski " target="_blank"><Piotr.Strzyzewski@polsl.pl> wrote:
Dear Alex, Members,
You are right that the wording of the statement "that he/she has never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction" is very broad. This was deliberately done.
In principle, RIPE NCC will assume the correctness of the statements provided by the nominees. Therefore, RIPE NCC will not become an arbiter whether or not a certain action of a nominee constitutes fraud.
Best regards, Piotr Strzyżewski RIPE NCC Executive Board
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 05:00:44PM +0100, Alex de Joode wrote:
???Thanks Christian,
I missed those.
"(b) a signed statement in which he/she declares that he/she shall adhere to the Code of Conduct for candidates for the Executive Board as adopted by the Executive Board and published on the Association???s website, and that he/she has never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction"
This is extremely broad. It also opens the possibility that RIPE NCC has to become an arbiter wether or not a certain action of a nominee constitutes fraud (with all the possible liabilities for RIPE NCC in civil court). Legally it would be preferable to just focus on 'outcomes': has there been any verdict against a nominee. Court cases can be won by nominees ..
Is the wording deliberate (ie as broad as possible) Ifso have you thought about the above scenario ? ???-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221
On Tue, 27-10-2020 16h 36min, " target="_blank">" target="_blank">"Kaufmann, Christian" <ckaufman@akamai.com> wrote:
Dear Alex, Dear Members,
Here you can find the exact wordings and details: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2020/proposed-...
and here is the rest of the supporting documents we have sent out before. https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2020/supportin...
Hope this helps,
Best,
Christian Kaufmann RIPE NCC Executive Board
From: Alex de Joode " target="_blank">" target="_blank"><adejoode@idgara.nl>
Reply to: Alex de Joode " target="_blank">" target="_blank"><adejoode@idgara.nl>
Date: Tuesday, 27. October 2020 at 14:31
To: " target="_blank"members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">">"members-discuss@ripe.net" " target="_blank"><members-discuss@ripe.net>, " target="_blank"exec-board@ripe.net" target="_blank">">"exec-board@ripe.net" " target="_blank"><exec-board@ripe.net>
Subject: [exec-board] ripe-ncc-executive-board-election-task-force-report
The report states:
7. Other requirements of nominees Recommendation It was agreed that the candidates must agree to follow the code of conduct at all times (see point 6 above). The nominee should also sign a statement certifying that they have not committed fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction. This requirement should be added to the Articles of Association.???
This is very broad as it pertains to behaviour. Normally this is stated as "not being convicted for fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction".
So in order to know what we are voting on tomorrow, can the Board show us the exact textual changes we are voting on?
Thanks.
Alex/(as-spectre)
???--
IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221
_______________________________________________ Exec-board mailing list Exec-board@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/exec-board
-- Piotr Strzyżewski
-- Piotr Strzyżewski
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:44:28AM +0100, Piotr Strzyzewski via members-discuss wrote:
You are right that the wording of the statement "that he/she has never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction" is very broad. This was deliberately done.
In principle, RIPE NCC will assume the correctness of the statements provided by the nominees. Therefore, RIPE NCC will not become an arbiter whether or not a certain action of a nominee constitutes fraud.
Then, why have this statement at all? *Who*, if anyone, determines whether a nominee (or elected board member) has committed fraud or misconduct and therefore has lied on their nomination? And what are the consequences of that? Similarly, the nominee has to declare "that he/she shall adhere to the Code of Conduct for candidates for the Executive Board as adopted by the Executive Board and published on the Association's website," Who determines that non-adherence has occurred and what are the consequences? I don't think anyone should vote in favour of these amendments until and unless these concerns are clarified. rgds, Sascha Luck
Hi Sascha,
Who determines that non-adherence has occurred and what are the consequences?
It is clearly said that RIPE Trusted Contacts should be asked. https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2020/ripe-ncc-... -- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov You wrote Wednesday, October 28, 2020, 4:27:54 PM:
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:44:28AM +0100, Piotr Strzyzewski via members-discuss wrote:
You are right that the wording of the statement "that he/she has never committed any fraud or other financial misconduct in any jurisdiction" is very broad. This was deliberately done.
In principle, RIPE NCC will assume the correctness of the statements provided by the nominees. Therefore, RIPE NCC will not become an arbiter whether or not a certain action of a nominee constitutes fraud.
Then, why have this statement at all? *Who*, if anyone, determines whether a nominee (or elected board member) has committed fraud or misconduct and therefore has lied on their nomination? And what are the consequences of that?
Similarly, the nominee has to declare "that he/she shall adhere to the Code of Conduct for candidates for the Executive Board as adopted by the Executive Board and published on the Association's website,"
Who determines that non-adherence has occurred and what are the consequences?
I don't think anyone should vote in favour of these amendments until and unless these concerns are clarified.
rgds, Sascha Luck
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kaa%40net-art.cz
participants (4)
-
Alex de Joode -
Piotr Strzyzewski -
Sascha Luck [ml] -
Sergey Myasoedov