Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme discussion
Hi, On Jul 24, 2012, at 9:38 PM, Rob Golding wrote:
"count" of ip's within a block - no, it's back to them being a "commodity" (altering the tax status)
This is wrong and leads to misinformation. Until last year RIPE membership had a cost depending on a class model (large, small, extra large, etc), which on its behalf depended on the number of allocated resources. Until last year (and now, so far) RIPE was classified as non-profit. These are facts. So it IS POSSIBLE to have a membership fee that depends on the number of allocated resources without changing the non-profit status, and an example has been provided. Everybody understands that RIPE cannot "sell" address space, everybody understands that RIPE can have different classes of membership which different fees, where the class of membership depends on the number of allocated resources and the fee is effectively proportional to that, all this maintaining a non-profit status. Continuing to confuse these two issues, which have nothing to do each with the other, sounds like plain misinformation: The "Tax issue" is not an issue, unless further information showing the opposite is presented. Regards, A.
"count" of ip's within a block - no, it's back to them being a "commodity" (altering the tax status) This is wrong and leads to misinformation. Until last year RIPE membership had a cost depending on a class model (large, small, extra large, etc), which on its behalf depended on the number of allocated resources.
*number* of resources, not *size* of resources So thank you for confirming my point:p If the charging switches to per-IP then they become "product" or "stock" or "items" or similar, and have a value, and that WILL change the tax-status of RIPE - which at current levels, will mean 25% tax which *WILL* have to be taken from members in fees So, hands up who wants a 25% price hike ? Rob
Hi to me what we should discuss is if we intend to introduce a model where some LIRs will pay more than others and how much this "delta" should be My opinion is that: 1) RIPE offers service to all of us, in a neutral and efficient way and this is a fact, I doubt that we can discuss that we ALL NEED RIPE! 2) the bigger is the LIR, i.e. the more revenues it gets in the telco market, the more it should pay. This is not so related to "resources consumption" but to a more logic and ethical issue regarding the duties that each of us should have in front of the community. I do not see why a small company or a start up should pay as much as a Telco whose revenues are billions per year. If we state that "we pay all the same" then we are not talking of a community, we are going against the basic idea of a community where each one should contribute for what you have. 3) the model is not related to "selling IP" but it should be related that the big companies should pay more than the fragile and small companies. We NEED new ideas in Europe and posing some barriers to new small companies it does not look like a good idea for Europe, especially right now. We do not have the same ecosystem that USA has, we need to improve this. And the RIPE community SHOULD help small companies to get bigger (and once bigger to contribute with an higher fee) 4) how to measure the size? we could ask to declare the total revenues coming from the telco products, then we could calculate the percentage, divide by X, then sum Y and then add bla bla bla..... It would be long and complex for RIPE and not very efficient. The solution is simple and it was working some years ago when we had extra small, small, medium etc. accordingly to some objective, clear, transparent paramenters: allocated IPv4 address space, ASs and PIs. It's already declared by each of us, it's easy to compute and to say "hey I am small/big/huge etc" 5) accordingly to 4 what I think should be better tuned is that extra-large should pay 10 to 100 times more than extra-small. Extra small should pay less than 500 Euro per year, while extra large should pay...... more. Do you think I am asking something inadeguate? ok give me the same revenues of billions per year and I would be in "your shoes" paying 50K/year and still smiling all the day long. Come into the shoes of a small company and try to find the fees for RIPE while you still are thinking how to survive till the end of the year. I still do not see what is the problem for a large company to pay 50K Euros or more for the communutiy, because we are talking of a community right? Just my 2 Eurocents Regards Paolo
Hi,
On Jul 24, 2012, at 9:38 PM, Rob Golding wrote:
"count" of ip's within a block - no, it's back to them being a "commodity" (altering the tax status)
This is wrong and leads to misinformation.
Until last year RIPE membership had a cost depending on a class model (large, small, extra large, etc), which on its behalf depended on the number of allocated resources. Until last year (and now, so far) RIPE was classified as non-profit. These are facts.
So it IS POSSIBLE to have a membership fee that depends on the number of allocated resources without changing the non-profit status, and an example has been provided.
Everybody understands that RIPE cannot "sell" address space, everybody understands that RIPE can have different classes of membership which different fees, where the class of membership depends on the number of allocated resources and the fee is effectively proportional to that, all this maintaining a non-profit status.
Continuing to confuse these two issues, which have nothing to do each with the other, sounds like plain misinformation: The "Tax issue" is not an issue, unless further information showing the opposite is presented.
Regards,
A.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Ing. Paolo Di Francesco Level7 s.r.l. unipersonale Sede operativa: Largo Montalto, 5 - 90144 Palermo C.F. e P.IVA 05940050825 Fax : +39-091-8772072 assistenza: (+39) 091-8776432 web: http://www.level7.it
Hi! On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Paolo Di Francesco < paolo.difrancesco@level7.it> wrote:
2) the bigger is the LIR, i.e. the more revenues it gets in the telco market, the more it should pay. This is not so related to "resources consumption" but to a more logic and ethical issue regarding the duties that each of us should have in front of the community. I do not see why a small company or a start up should pay as much as a Telco whose revenues are billions per year. If we state that "we pay all the same" then we are not talking of a community, we are going against the basic idea of a community where each one should contribute for what you have.
It is communism or socialism or whatever... Anyway I do not agree that somebody is better than I am (or my company is) to pay less than I have to pay for the same services to the regional monopoly. (Please note that I work for an organization which has the RIPE NCC contribution category Small.) Tomas -- S pozdravem, Tomáš Hlaváček ------------------------------------------------- IGNUM s.r.o. | Vinohradská 190 | Praha 3 | 130 61 Tel: +420 296 332 211 | Fax: +420 296 332 222 Tel: +420 604 111 111 | Mobil: +420 603 111 111 Web: http://www.ignum.cz | http://www.domena.cz
Hi Tomas
Hi!
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Paolo Di Francesco <paolo.difrancesco@level7.it <mailto:paolo.difrancesco@level7.it>> wrote:
2) the bigger is the LIR, i.e. the more revenues it gets in the telco market, the more it should pay. This is not so related to "resources consumption" but to a more logic and ethical issue regarding the duties that each of us should have in front of the community. I do not see why a small company or a start up should pay as much as a Telco whose revenues are billions per year. If we state that "we pay all the same" then we are not talking of a community, we are going against the basic idea of a community where each one should contribute for what you have.
It is communism or socialism or whatever...
you forgot to mention Christian :)
Anyway I do not agree that somebody is better than I am (or my company is) to pay less than I have to pay for the same services to the regional monopoly.
in term of "service" I do not agree that it's the same service. A small LIR does not continously request different address spaces (which now takes time to be approved by RIPE) or the number of objects allocated into the DB.
(Please note that I work for an organization which has the RIPE NCC contribution category Small.)
Put in simple words: the lower is the fee for small and extra small the more benefits we will get as Europeans. Paying the same fee as a national operator is paying, does not sound like a good idea to me for the creation of new ideas and to keep the market as much open as we can to innovation. By the way, I would say that sounds more communist the fact that the price should be the same for each LIR. Now talking as Capitalist: the bigger is your company the more interest you have in order to keep the service up and running. Now considering that the fees are used to make RIPE survive I would say: ok let's close RIPE and let's see who is going to cray more because there is no more IPv4/IPv6 management in Europe: a small LIR or a huge Telco? That's why a bigger LIR should contribute MORE than a small one. As I said, just my 2 Euro cents
Tomas
-- S pozdravem, Tomáš Hlaváček ------------------------------------------------- IGNUM s.r.o. | Vinohradská 190 | Praha 3 | 130 61 Tel: +420 296 332 211 | Fax: +420 296 332 222 Tel: +420 604 111 111 | Mobil: +420 603 111 111 Web: http://www.ignum.cz | http://www.domena.cz
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Ing. Paolo Di Francesco Level7 s.r.l. unipersonale Sede operativa: Largo Montalto, 5 - 90144 Palermo C.F. e P.IVA 05940050825 Fax : +39-091-8772072 assistenza: (+39) 091-8776432 web: http://www.level7.it
participants (4)
-
Andrea Cocito -
Paolo Di Francesco -
Rob Golding -
Tomas Hlavacek