- members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

Some thoughts I was not able to say at GM-2011
by poty＠iiat.ru 09 Nov '11

09 Nov '11

Hello everybody, At the beginning I'd like to apologize for my poor spoken English which prevented me to clearly state my opinion at GM. It is not related to any problems with EB preventing me to do that! Thank them for the opportunity given and sorry for emotional expressions. I hope that something from my speech at GM was understandable, but to make my position more consistent I'll sum the thoughts I wanted to express. My main concern is about openness of the decisions if we speak about money, not technical and police things. All the three interrelated finance documents (The Activity Plan, which defines the expenses and is the base for the Budget, which defines the balance between the expenses and incomes, and the Charging Scheme as a result of defined incomes to cover expenses) were compiled inside of the RIPE NCC and were not clear to me and (according to several posts here in the list) to several other members. For example, who exactly gave the feedbacks for initial RIPE NCC Proposed New Charging Scheme 2012? The members-discuss list was pristine innocent about this "the current Charging Scheme model is complex and makes it difficult for individual members to easily determine their own fees" complains. Private conversations? Maybe... But it shouldn't in my opinion be private as soon as it relates to all the members! The new published EB email which enables another private channel between a person and the EB is a bad thing according to the logic of my sentences above. The main and the only "panel" for discussion should be either the members-discuss list or new "finance-discuss?" list, opened maybe only to members (I don't mind if it is completely opened). As stated by Nigel Titley, the Chairman of the Executive Board, at the GM the things are going to change to the next GM. The lack of discussions about the documents before GM-2011 was in my opinion related to usefulness and the source reasons in the documents. Speaking about the Activity Plan - we (members) asked the EB about adding cost to each activity in 2007-2008. Without the numbers the Activity Plan is a way of stating things, but not evaluating effectiveness of the services. Discuss "marked on stone" statements is not very rewarding venture. Thankfully the numbers will appear soon in the document. Second point in the matter - the procedure of changing the Activity Plan - it is not exist now and should be invented. There was already the suggestions about it in the list I won't going to repeat them now. Speaking about the Charging Scheme... I'm not against the increase of the amount to pay, I'm against of the misty motivations for the rise and some predictability of expenses. There should be clearly defined "resource classes" included in each membership category, and clearer definition of fairness. (I'd also decide on the consulting about the taxation issue, but it in unrelated thing up to now.) I can give many examples of that but I'm trying to make this message as short as possible. For example, I don't agree with the "free" IPv6: the LIRs would pay for the blocks indirectly, through IPv4 counting, anyway - whom we are going to trick then? The last thing which is the most important to me - the services of the RIPE NCC above the main baseline of "providing unique blocks of numbers and register them on the DB". It is related to the Activity Plan certainly, but I'd like to mention them from different point of view - in term of including some of them in the Charging Scheme. I'm repeating - I'm not against developed services "made in RIPE NCC", think that many of them (not all though) are very useful, but why some of them deserves to be mentioned in the Charging Scheme, the others - not? Why not related to the main activity things should be mentioned in invoices at all? I think of it like "tie in sale", not very pleasant thought of course. Regards, Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat

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Re: [members-discuss] Voting @ GM 2011
by Brandon Butterworth 07 Nov '11

07 Nov '11

> The alternative, of course, is to continue with the old charging scheme > as we have used up until now but of course we put together the new > charging scheme as a response to the membership after complaints about > the old one, so I wouldn't expect that to be popular. There will always be some who think the price is too damn high and they should pay less (and in this case others should pay more instead). When you change it you'll make some happier, some will think it's still to high and you'll add others who now think it's too high. The latter two will continue to be heard. Overall the RIPE fees aren't that large and for big ISP are just noise. If there is change that's a sign where to make it. brandon

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activity plan suggestion
by Sergey Myasoedov 07 Nov '11

07 Nov '11

Hello, there is a proposal for RIPE NCC and Executive board. As there is a criticism of RIPE NCC Activity plan and voting at the GM for the whole plan, I would like to propose to split the Activity plan into several statements and vote for each item of the plan separately. The voting can be done by show of hands directly at the GM. Thank you. -- Kind regards, Sergey

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Privatelayer Inc
by Nigel Titley 07 Nov '11

07 Nov '11

Dear Private Layer If there is anybody from Private Layer actually reading this list can they please take their ticketing system OFF it. You are the last member to do this. It is difficult to understand why you are unable to do this. There are two possibilities: 1. No one at Private Layer reads trouble tickets 2. No one at Private Layer knows how to take their ticket system off the list Neither bodes well for your continued viability as a commercial entity. Fondest regards Nigel

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Re: [members-discuss] Voting @ GM 2011
by Hank Nussbacher 07 Nov '11

07 Nov '11

At 11:54 07/11/2011 +0100, Lu Heng wrote: >Hi Hank: >They will take money from reserve as I heard in the GM. >It was like 4M(if I was not remember it wrong) shortage Always nice to have reserves, but they tend to dry up after extensive use. I hope the EB has some plans of cost cutting, other than RIPE NCC's ideas of cost cutting such as <sarcasm> taking on a 2MEuro RIPE ATLAS Probe project</sarcasm>. -Hank >On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Hank Nussbacher <hank(a)efes.iucc.ac.il> wrote: > > At 10:25 07/11/2011 +0000, James Blessing wrote: > >>On 07/11/2011 10:16, SPEEDNIC S.R.L. - RIPE Handling wrote: > >> > >> > Can you explain us and to the whole list what will be happen now as I > >> > guess it was the first time since we are a member that the GM don't > >> > adopt the Charging Scheme ?? > >> > >>As was explained at the GM by Nigel, the charging scheme that currently > >>exists would be used leading to an expected revenue shortfall > > > > In most businesses I know of, when there is an expected revenue shortfall, > > cuts are made - either in salary, amount of manpower or in projects. I > > hope RIPE NCC has contingency plans in place. > > > > Regards, > > Hank > > > > > >>J > >>-- > >>James Blessing > >>+44 7989 039 476 > >>Strategic Relations Manager, EMEA > >>Limelight Networks > >> > >>---- > >>If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > >>mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > >>general page: > >>https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > >> > >>Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > >>here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > > > ---- > > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > > >-- >This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. >It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or >otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use >of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the >intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received >this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and >e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this >message and including the text of the transmission received.

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Re: [members-discuss] Proposed 2012 Charging scheme, Board comments
by Hank Nussbacher 29 Oct '11

29 Oct '11

At 11:16 03/10/2011 +0200, Erik Bais wrote: >Hi Jon, > >Without repeating myself in this discussion, I'll just post a url for you >to read from earlier this year on the topic. >http://www.ripe.net/maillists/ncc-archives/members-discuss/2011/msg00154.ht… > >Basically, the members approve the activity schedule for the RIPE NCC. >That means that we also shouldn't bitch about a certain cost, not for >profit doesn't mean free :) We do not get much of a say as to how much budget should be applied for regional meetings, consultancy, training courses, RIPE meetings, marketing, r&d, etc. We are given a budget that increases every year and are told to ratify it - of which only 5% of the membership vote. Most LIRs don't care if the fee is 3KEuro or 10KEuro since it just gets absorbed as a minor cost overhead as passed on to customers. And RIPE knows it. -Hank >If we don't agree..either we should have a look at how certain costs are >being made or we should scrap certain activities. > >In the end.. we're only talking about 6.25 euro per LIR per day. > >Regards, >Erik Bais > >---- >If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >general page: >https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > >Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >here, you can add or remove addresses.

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Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012
by poty＠iiat.ru 18 Oct '11

18 Oct '11

Hello everybody, >From the counts it seems that the "not much increase" paradigm is not in the intentions of the new charging scheme. While I'd prefer to see the numbers in percents of amount to pay, the counting shows - the new charging scheme is way off the initial good feeling. (I hope the counting are fair - i.e. includes independent resources like PI and ASN). I'd like also hear some words from RIPE NCC about several suggestions voiced in the list. Regards, Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat From: members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Jochem de Ruig Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 6:18 PM To: Nigel Titley; members-discuss(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012 Dear all, About 40% of members will pay less and about 60% of members will pay more. Pay less in EUR less than 1,000 0% 1,000 - 500 9% 499 - 0 31% Pay more 1 - 499 32% 500 - 999 3% 1,000 - 1,999 19% 2,000 - 5,000 4% more than 5,000 1% Regards, Jochem On Oct 12, 2011, at 6:24 PM, Nigel Titley wrote: On 12/10/2011 13:56, Mike Hollowell wrote: On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 13:30 +0100, Nigel Titley wrote: 30% of XSmall members moving up, 9% of XSmall members moving down. 59% of Small members moving up, 14% Small members moving down. 100% M, L& XL moving up. Doesn't look the least bit balanced, roughly or otherwise. I did talk about the costs and not the membership category. Let me see if Jochem can give us some figures on what percentage of members will see *cost* increase and decrease. Nigel

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Clarification re proposed Charging Scheme 2012
by Sascha Luck 13 Oct '11

13 Oct '11

Hi, the proposed CS2012 contains the following footnote to the table for the calculation of membership categories: "Note 1: All IPv4 and IPv6 addresses (Provider Independent and Provider Aggregatable) are taken into account." For clarification, does this mean all PI space managed by the LIR on behalf of End Users, or only PI space directly assigned to the LIR? If the former, what is the justification to charging for this space twice, once through moving into a higher category and again through the EUR50 annual charge for Independent Resources? rgds, Sascha Luck ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012
by poty＠iiat.ru 13 Oct '11

13 Oct '11

Then - could you explain - why my question about why selling ASN per-number is not violating the current policy was not answered? Or you would deny this question too? > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Hartmann [mailto:richih.mailinglist@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 6:54 PM > To: Potapov Vladislav > Cc: gert(a)space.net; bangert(a)parknet.dk; members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012 > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 16:32, <poty(a)iiat.ru> wrote: > > > It IS true. Several people can prove that. The answer of the RIPE NCC > > was - it is already late to change something. The presentation was > > forged - and personally you knew that. > > While Gert did a good job of dismantling your factual points, I would > like to add a more personal/netiquette note. > > If you feel that you absolutely _have_ to accuse someone not only of > lying but of deliberate manipulation, please have some specific, > verifiable facts at the ready to back up your claim. In this specific > case, I highly doubt you have any. > > 2007-01 has been discussed at length prior to its voting. Coming late > to the game is not an excuse to pretend your voice was ignored on > purpose. > > > Richard ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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Side tracking on Charging schema and Auto-mail responders ...
by Erik Bais 13 Oct '11

13 Oct '11

If one would like to put a proposal forward that RIPE would actually increase the cost category of a LIR that replies to send emails on the general mail lists with a ticketing system with at least 1 category for the year ahead ... Is that something that one can ask for to vote on the AGM or is that something that needs a PDP proposal ? Kind regards, Erik Bais ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

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