- members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

LIR’s billing issues with RIPE NCC, need support
by Juri 28 Jan '19

28 Jan '19

Dear RIPE NCC Members i.e. LIR! RIPE77 meeting is over but some questions still active and I want to bring them up for discussion. This is long-read, but please read it, it’s important. I work at ISP company and work a lot of with RIPE NCC as well as for LIR management and registrations. I want RIPE NCC become better for all LIRs and try to participate. For long time I face with RIPE NCC strange billing issues, and I feel not comfortable with them. I run ISP company and I understand how to manage customers and how usually billing for services of the IT company should work. I will try to split different issues in different emails. First I want to say that I tried to find an answer for my question from Finance department of the RIPE NCC, I spent a time for that and I found that it was not correct place for that. I was forwarded to RIPE NCC Board for such discussion. I wrote my experience at RIPE77 Meeting to the Board and got feedback that the ideas and facts I explained to them should be discussed in Members-Discuss list because they are not described in Policies. So that’s my try to do that. Let me show you several simple billing issues. They will be related to companies who pays much more than other companies to RIPE NCC. These are Multi LIR companies. Yes, everybody knows that company may have several LIR accounts at RIPE NCC if company pays membership and setup fees. This is quite normal and a lot of companies use this ability. Let’s start. What kind of issues do we have. Let me explain most important of them. 1) If a company want to do anything (transfer a part or merge with your existing company) with one of your LIRs RIPE NCC will ask you to pay till the end of the year for all LIRs. This is not fear and not correct because RIPE NCC really doesn’t give a LIR service for that companies. 2) Let’s say you just opened in December new one LIR for your company (and paid fees for the last 4th part of the year + setup fees) and want to do something with other LIR resources on account of the same company. RIPE NCC will ask to pay full year for LIR that were opened just in current year. What we have? You just get service for last part of the year but you should pay for membership for LIR for the time that it was not existed. This is insane for IT company to overcharge members for the past time. 3) If one company merge another one - they get still limitations for keeping several LIRs for several years. Such things should not happen. It was not so sometime before but now that happens. What I see? RIPE NCC overcharge LIRs. Why? It was not so some amount of time ago. RIPE NCC didn’t care about that, but they changed it without any discussion with members. Now I want to answer for Important question for those members who wish to start telling me about something else.... I will give you an answer here. All RIPE NCC members have the limit for changes/transfers and etc as 2 years (24 month) of hold time. If this time should be changed - it’s a way to Policy development process. Everybody believe that expenses for having extra LIR should be for 2 years (24 month), let’s say this is what we have and this delay is written in RIPE NCC documents. If we want to discuss this time - it's other one discussion. In real life this 2 years means 3 years (and usually *N). LIRs have to pay extra membership fees for (3-4 years)*N of LIRs, but not for 2 years as it should be. I find this unfair for LIRs. I want all LIRs have clear billing and pay for services/membership that we have really consumed. This is normal and correct to have clear and good billing. What do I suggest? I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any services for LIR instance. Please support me and reply to this email. Or write your opinion. I believe RIPE NCC should work better for LIRs. Your voice is important. Juri ------------ NTX DataCenter/Hosting +7 (499) 346-76-29

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Billing Changes: Transition Arrangements Available
by Aleksey Bulgakov 22 Jan '19

22 Jan '19

Hi. The redistribution in 2018 was EUR 359.23. You received EUR 179.64, due to your member's fees were for half year in 2017. -------------- Regards, Alexey вт, 22 янв. 2019 г. в 17:02, Dominic Schallert <ds(a)schallert.com>: > > So this means a surplus redistribution of EUR 567.51,- per LIR in 2019? really? seems a lot to me. In 2018 it had been only around EUR 179.64 per LIR. > > Mit besten Grüßen > Kind Regards > > Dominic Schallert, BA > > > schallert.com e.U. | Hauptstraße 35b, 6800 Feldkirch, Austria > > FN: 440372g | UID: ATU66209211 | Gerichtsstand: Feldkirch > > Tel.: +43 680 146 1947 | Fax: +43 134 242 642 616 > > www.schallert.com | office(a)schallert.com > > > > > Am 22.01.2019 um 14:03 schrieb Gwen van Berne <ripencc-management(a)ripe.net>: > > Recognising that some of our members may need help to make this transition, we are able to offer a credit arrangement for those with a genuine need. Members should also note that with the redistribution of the surplus from 2018, the annual contribution for 2019 of EUR 1,400 will be compensated by the excess paid contribution of 2018, which will reduce the 2019 payment obligation for a single LIR to EUR 832.49. > > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmai… -- ---------- Best regards, Alexey Bulgakov Tel.: +7 (926)690-87-29

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Billing Changes: Transition Arrangements Available
by Dominic Schallert 22 Jan '19

22 Jan '19

So this means a surplus redistribution of EUR 567.51,- per LIR in 2019? really? seems a lot to me. In 2018 it had been only around EUR 179.64 per LIR. Mit besten Grüßen Kind Regards Dominic Schallert, BA schallert.com e.U. | Hauptstraße 35b, 6800 Feldkirch, Austria FN: 440372g | UID: ATU66209211 | Gerichtsstand: Feldkirch Tel.: +43 680 146 1947 | Fax: +43 134 242 642 616 www.schallert.com <http://www.schallert.com/> | office(a)schallert.com <mailto:office@schallert.com> > Am 22.01.2019 um 14:03 schrieb Gwen van Berne <ripencc-management(a)ripe.net>: > > Recognising that some of our members may need help to make this transition, we are able to offer a credit arrangement for those with a genuine need. Members should also note that with the redistribution of the surplus from 2018, the annual contribution for 2019 of EUR 1,400 will be compensated by the excess paid contribution of 2018, which will reduce the 2019 payment obligation for a single LIR to EUR 832.49.

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Re: [members-discuss] [EXTERNAL] Re: New Charging Scheme
by Jørgen Hovland 22 Jan '19

22 Jan '19

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Redistribution of Excess Member Contribution
by FreeData 21 Jan '19

21 Jan '19

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Re: [members-discuss] New Charging Scheme
by ivaylo 18 Jan '19

18 Jan '19

Hello, Jonas Thank you for the numbers ! In my previous mail told, that these are examples only and pointed exact to this so now it is clear if the charging scheme is on net basis: 26000000 (targeting budget) / 3108576 = 8.37 EUROs for /24 per year ! Even if we put targeting budget x 2 it is very resonable fee for one /24 net. Also permanent LIR to LIR resources transfers must be disabled. Then what we will have: (again example numbers) registration fee: 2000 EURO Anual membership fee: 350 EURO (receive one /24 for free) For every next /24 dedicated + 10 EURO All LIR to LIR permanent transfers - disabled (If you need resources ask RIPE, if you dont need return to RIPE) Off course bigger operators that need large resources will pay more than now, but it is absolutely normal, they have larger bussiness with a lot more revenue, It is not fair to put on same basis small telecom with 2k-3k clients and operator with 20m - 30m clients. Ivaylo Josifov Varteh LTD Varna Bulgaria On Thu, 17 Jan 2019, Jonas Frey wrote: > Hello, > > sorry but that type of billing is totally nonsense. You obvisously > never calculated this with real data. Let me do it for you: > > According to > ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/stats/delegated-ripencc-extended-latest > RIPE currently assigned 817101048 IP addresses for real-use (excluding > reserved and free etc.). > That equals to roughly 3191800 /24's. There are currently 20806 LIR's ( > https://labs.ripe.net/statistics/number-of-lirs) if each one is > getting a /22 free, that means we have to deduct 83224 /24's from above > figure. That makes it 3108576 /24's which should be billed (according > to you). > 3108576*350 = 1.088.001.600,00 Euros. Yes, thats 1 billion euros. > RIPE's budget for 2018 was (projected) to be 26 million euros: > https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-693 > > As you can see this is utterly nonsense. As you might know, any surplus > the RIPE NCC generates (at the end of the fiscal year) will be re- > distributed to the members as RIPE is a association and not a company > in regular terms. > > Or are you trying to actually get paid from RIPE for using little count > of IPv4 addresses? > > Anything that is money related will *not* help to get IPv4 back or > solve this with the current form of membership and RIPE. There are > plenty of other ways (some of which have been proposed here) that are a > much better idea (migrating to IPv6 being the ultimate one). > > -J > > > > Am Mittwoch, den 16.01.2019, 17:22 +0200 schrieb ivaylo: >> Hello, >> >> I 100% agree with you ! >> >> As many resources one LIR consumes as bigger membership fee should >> be. >> >> Even to better optimize resources usage, the fee can be calculated on >> /24 >> basis. >> >> example: >> /17 = 128 x /24 >> fee = (128-4)*350 = 43 400 euro/year fee >> >> >> >> P.S. in your example should be: (32-1)*1400 = 39 200 euro. >> >> Ivaylo Josifov >> Varteh LTD >> Varna Bulgaria >> >> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019, TrustHost wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi. >>> >>> I think it would be great if the payment depends on the quantity >>> the >>> resources for one account. It would help to return unused IPv4 in >>> free pool >>> for new business. The companies, who really use big networks won't >>> notice >>> such changes. But who received the resources before 2012 and has >>> unused /19 >>> and maybe more will think if they really need such big blocks. >>> >>> For example we can implement the next charging scheme. >>> If one account has more than /20 (not equivalent 4x/22 or the >>> blocks were >>> allocated before 2012) the next /22 ownership will cost some price >>> (e.g. >>> 1400 euro). >>> >>> For example: >>> There is /17 IPv4 block for one LIR account. >>> /17 = 32x/22. >>> The total price for this account is (32-4)*1400 = 39 200 euro. >>> >>> I think the members must have equal rights, regardless of the year >>> of the >>> membership started. >>> >>> ------------------ >>> Kind regards, >>> Boris Loginov >>> >>> TrustHost LLC >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/r >> ipe%40probe-networks.de

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Re: [members-discuss] New Charging Scheme
by ripe-lr＠cidr.eu 17 Jan '19

17 Jan '19

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Billing Changes in 2019
by Christian Kaufmann 17 Jan '19

17 Jan '19

(Now with webstream link included). Dear members, The board has been following this discussion with great interest and I think now is the right time to comment. Over the past two years, your feedback has been that the RIPE NCC should be looking to increase efficiency and that processes should be automated and optimised as much as possible. We heard you and we acted on this. In 2017, the organisation received 11,000 billing tickets for around 17,000 members. Any company that has to answer more than one billing query for every two of its customers should be taking a hard look at its processes. One of our initiatives was to look at what creates the most work, and this is tickets processed by the RIPE NCC. Quarterly billing is a massive source of additional work in this respect and we decided to simplify this process by moving to a single annual payment (which is how the bulk of the membership currently pays its fees). This was presented on a few months ago at the last General Meeting (webstream link at the bottom of this email): https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2018/ripe-ncc… While under no obligation to do so, the RIPE NCC has offered quarterly payments to its members for a long time. This dates back to when the membership fee for a small LIR was almost double what it is today. Continuing to offer this service has become less practical as the membership has grown. It is not the sending and processing of invoices that is the issue - this is about as automated as it can be. The problem is the amount of reminders, queries and other communication that comes with each billing cycle. This is getting worse as the membership grows, especially with the opening of multiple LIRs. Recognising that this that might cause inconvenience for some members, we instructed the RIPE NCC to offer an individual payment plan on request. The RIPE NCC will soon provide more details on how it intends to manage this transition for members that require support. If you will be negatively impacted, please contact the RIPE NCC via this option. Not only will it mean they can help you individually, but it will also let us see how many members will be affected. This mailing list is not always a representative sample. The RIPE NCC is here to support you and your business. If the new rule creates more harm than benefits for the membership, then we can always revisit our approach. Best regards Christian Kaufmann Chairman of the Executive Board GM webstream (financial update starts at 21:50): https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2018/webstream

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Billing Changes in 2019
by Christian Kaufmann 17 Jan '19

17 Jan '19

Dear members, The board has been following this discussion with great interest and I think now is the right time to comment. Over the past two years, your feedback has been that the RIPE NCC should be looking to increase efficiency and that processes should be automated and optimised as much as possible. We heard you and we acted on this. In 2017, the organistaion received 11,000 billing tickets for around 17,000 members. Any company that has to answer more than one billing query for every two of its customers should be taking a hard look at its processes. One of our initiatives was to look at what creates the most work, and this is tickets processed by the RIPE NCC. Quarterly billing is a massive source of additional work in this respect and we decided to simplify this process by moving to a single annual payment (which is how the bulk of the membership currently pays its fees). This was presented on a few months ago at the last General Meeting (webstream link at the bottom of this email): https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2018/ripe-ncc… While under no obligation to do so, the RIPE NCC has offered quarterly payments to its members for a long time. This dates back to when the membership fee for a small LIR was almost double what it is today. Continuing to offer this service has become less practical as the membership has grown. It is not the sending and processing of invoices that is the issue - this is about as automated as it can be. The problem is the amount of reminders, queries and other communication that comes with each billing cycle. This is getting worse as the membership grows, especially with the opening of multiple LIRs. Recognising that this that might cause inconvenience for some members, we instructed the RIPE NCC to offer an individual payment plan on request. The RIPE NCC will soon provide more details on how it intends to manage this transition for members that require support. If you will be negatively impacted, please contact the RIPE NCC via this option. Not only will it mean they can help you individually, but it will also let us see how many members will be affected. This mailing list is not always a representative sample. The RIPE NCC is here to support you and your business. If the new rule creates more harm than benefits for the membership, then we can always revisit our approach. Best regards Christian Kaufmann Chairman of the Executive Board

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Re: [members-discuss] New Charging Scheme
by ripe-lr＠cidr.eu 17 Jan '19

17 Jan '19

2 1