- members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [members-discuss] [ripe-list] New RIPE Labs Article - Building a stable future for the RIPE NCC
by Sergey Myasoedov 18 Apr '24

18 Apr '24

Hi, The topic is definitely for members-discuss, not for ripe-list, so I'll continue in m-d. > 1) RIPE need to make some reserve funds for compensate some looses due sanctions, banking troubles and etc... for example 5% of total budget. That's far away from the reality. As far as I remember, the target was about 100% of the budget, so the association could survive 1 to 2 years without any funding. The current status of the reserves is 80%+ of the budget. > 2) Change Charging Scheme from LIR based to Resource based and spare RIPE budget spending in equal parts. Big LIRs with large amount of resouces - will be pay more (in equal share), LIRs with small amount of resources - will be pay less (in equal share). Paying more than others usually means having more rights. Should the top payers benefit more from their membership? -- Best, Sergey

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Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic)
by sdy＠a-n-t.ru 17 Apr '24

17 Apr '24

Yes! And it is why is need to reform budget of NCC too. It is need to divide it by 2 path to. So not in 2025, but in 2026 it will be good try to do. > If you look at the current pricing model from RIPE's angle, everyone is equal in terms of making the budget. In a sense this diversification is good as each member is 1/21570th of the whole. In the big picture it does not really matter if someone is slightly late or cannot pay or it turns out that they're a high risk and aren't invoiced. > > With models where some would be paying a larger (or very large) share of the budget, revenue assurance (collections) is much more important. > > Also, not everyone needs to be happy with the fee structure. It is enough that the majority is. ?? > > > > Kaj > ________________________________ > From: Evgeniy Brodskiy <Evgeniy.Brodskiy(a)kyivstar.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 14:56 > To: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu(a)basen.net> > Cc: Kurt Jaeger <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net>; members-discuss(a)ripe.net <members-discuss(a)ripe.net>; sdy(a)a-n-t.ru <sdy(a)a-n-t.ru> > Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic) > > You don't often get email from evgeniy.brodskiy(a)kyivstar.net. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> > > Confidential/Конфіденційно > > > Thank you. > > > > I agree with you, today there is practically no sense in shifting between RIRs. > > But if someone says you'll pay 10 times (or even bigger) what you pay today because the current fee is "simply unfair", inter RIRs transfer might be an option to think. > > In that case everything will be fair. Small LIR will stay in RIPE with fair, per single IP, share of spends and big LIRs will receive registry services from other RIRs. > > > > At least I don't see any other options to make everybody happy with fees. > > > > From: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu(a)basen.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 2:27 PM > To: sdy(a)a-n-t.ru; Evgeniy Brodskiy <Evgeniy.Brodskiy(a)kyivstar.net> Cc: Kurt Jaeger <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net>; members-discuss(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic) > > > > It is possible to transfer resources between the RIRs with a bunch of conditions attached and some caveats. For example: > > > > 1. both RIRs must approve the intended transfer, > > 1. there needs to be some kind of justification why it would need to > occur, > > 1. at least in LACNIC's case one would need to re-justify the incoming > assignment using their rules, > > 1. if addresses were considered legacy at RIPE, they would convert to > non-legacy when being registered with LACNIC, > > 1. you'd end up paying both sides of the transaction assuming you're > controlling two LIRs under separate RIRs. > > > > So, it doesn't really make sense to try to "RIR shop" on price. Transfers might make sense if you want to consolidate assets for M&A purposes somewhere than where they originated. > > > > Realistically, if someone were to return IPv4 addresses to a RIR, the returned addresses would in practice instantly be gone as there are waiting lists for these. > > > > > > > > Kaj > > > > ________________________________ > > From: members-discuss > <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> on behalf of Evgeniy Brodskiy via members-discuss > <members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 13:28 > To: sdy(a)a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru> <sdy(a)a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru>> Cc: Kurt Jaeger > <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>>; members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > <members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic) > > > > Confidential/Конфіденційно > > Maybe, but to be sure we all understand consequences for this "easy" solution to "complicated problem" I have two questions: > - do LIRs have ability to transfer IPv4 networks between RIRs (because > for the land example, transfer is not an option) ?? > - is this transfer more complicated and costly than have fair share of > RIPE spends ? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss > <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> On Behalf Of sdy(a)a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 12:59 PM > To: Evgeniy Brodskiy > <Evgeniy.Brodskiy(a)kyivstar.net<mailto:Evgeniy.Brodskiy@kyivstar.net>> Cc: Kurt Jaeger > <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>>; members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic) > > Sorry, but my 5 cents... > > Not only "result in some IPv4 addresses being transferred back to RIPE". Lets do not forget, It will decrease payment for LIR who could not take more IPv4 an AS. > So, This will make the relationship between the NCC participants more honest too. > >> Confidential/Конфіденційно >> >> Hello Kurtis! >> >> I think there is one more circle. Some members simply want to increase the cost of ownership IPv4 address space. >> Perhaps, from their point of view, this will result in some IPv4 addresses being transferred back to RIPE. >> >> >> P.S. I believe it is not, a lot of reasons why. >> >> From: members-discuss >> <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>> On Behalf Of >> Kurtis Lindqvist >> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 11:56 AM >> To: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu(a)basen.net<mailto:kajtzu@basen.net>>; Kurt Jaeger <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>> Cc: members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal >> (logarithmic) >> >> You don't often get email from kurtis(a)linx.net<mailto:kurtis@linx.net>. Learn why this is >> important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> >> >> Hi Kaj! >> >> Isn’t this really at the heart of the problem. In a Venn diagram there are (at least) three circles here, the members with an opinion the mailinglist who want to crystalise the core services and keep RIPE NCC costs lower and see greater efficiency gains, there is the circle of members who respond to the membership survey and are happy and want to keep all services as they are and then there is a circle of the members who actually vote (and possibly manage the payments). I am not convinced there is a great overlap of these circles and so we end up in a situation with very little guidance. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> - kurtis - >> -- >> Kurt Erik Lindqvist, CEO >> T: +44 (0) 20 7645 3528 | >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.l%2F&d…<http://www.l/> inx.net%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e1 0c441352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C63 8489448786280462%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV 2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QEXMYddLt GMe%2B5YroI0pEgvAe3%2BTJBPajNC65st8t6o%3D&reserved=0<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur01.saf… > <https://eur01.saf/>> > elinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linx.net%2F&data=0 >> 5%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec 54984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786299804% 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik 1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vtv4hBXwlC5CcMN8aZ1Dfg3aCU ErpIb1fOJhmWNmekk%3D&reserved=0> >> [b8dd7c7e-5b7a-4bb3-bf55-4265639a41be]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur01.saf… > <https://eur01.safelinks.protect/>> > ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linx.net%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvge >> niy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9b d573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786313582%7CUnknown%7CT WFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI 6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VTF2xqEsQquRE5dLjkUMPvI4UP8lVMjkC9k7dUY y2BM%3D&reserved=0> >> London Internet Exchange Ltd (LINX) >> C/O WeWork, 2 Minister Court, London, EC3R 7BB, United Kingdom >> Registered in England number 3137929 >> [09f5285b-9bf5-4663-a1d5-f335264499f8]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur01.saf… > <https://eur01.safelinks.protect/>> > ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Flinx_network&data=05% >> 7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec54 984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786324932%7C Unknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1h aWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6iKup8bVtB4LtGLG0TxkuCHpewpX yef3oKar3140azA%3D&reserved=0>[0ab2af08-4510-4094-a068-c92129623c5c]<h ttps://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.l inkedin.com%2Fcompany%2Flinx&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivsta r.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a 30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786333281%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4 wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C% 7C&sdata=3DvsDweiQlhS0ZOkvrLzIcLlxahiESXocYqlrQrcssQ%3D&reserved=0>[34 761a22-8ab1-4259-b5a4-c45509cfc94a]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur01.saf… > <https://eur01.safelinks.protection/>> > .outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FLondonInternetExcha >> nge%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c44 1352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489 448786341755%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luM zIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nrAUIZRXumi8m ycHPygzTeP15GicspQVnrotFfWm5WU%3D&reserved=0>[591060a6-addb-47a4-a833- 1c93e4b644f4]<http://http/ > <http://http/%0b>> > s%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fuser%2FLINXnetwork&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy. >> Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd573 bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786350626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpb GZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0 %3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xEsJW7jwlv9%2FPy9B8fWqM8wXWNGfmxxAqXzViM8rD TY%3D&reserved=0> >> >> From: members-discuss >> <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe. > <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.%0b>> net>> on behalf of Kaj Niemi >> <kajtzu(a)basen.net<mailto:kajtzu@basen.net<mailto:kajtzu@basen.net%3cmailto:kajtzu@basen.net>>> Date: Tuesday, 16 April 2024 at 19:49 >> To: Kurt Jaeger >> <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>>> Cc: >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> <members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal >> (logarithmic) >> Hi, >> >> >> Good points. >> >> On the topic of AFRINIC, I would slightly disagree. Membership numbers have been increasing from about 1200 in 2018-ish, when they restated revenue, at around 5.3M USD to the 6M-ish USD I mentioned in my previous email. I haven't actively been following the story there but assumed the legal troubles started FY2021-ish.. since revenue was restated, there was probably something else going on earlier. They spent about 140k on legal in 2022 although only non-audited numbers exist. I'm reading it as if the legal issues themselves did not affect revenue one way or another. >> >> As for RIPE, well, I'm advocating on spending less and crystallizing the value prop because right now it's all over the place. >> >> >> 1. LIRs [must] pay because they need the registry services >> 2. In exchange they get a ton of services that many do not use at all 3. All services and functions are necessary because [list with many >> reasons] >> 4. "We need to increase the fees because of 2 and 3" >> 5. Goto 1 >> >> That being said, the gym analogy someone replied with a few days ago is quite apt. Most people there, too, pay but do not use. >> >> >> >> Kaj >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Kurt Jaeger >> <members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2024 8:06 PM >> To: Kaj Niemi >> <kajtzu(a)basen.net<mailto:kajtzu@basen.net<mailto:kajtzu@basen.net%3cmailto:kajtzu@basen.net>>> Cc: >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> <members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal >> (logarithmic) >> >> [You don't often get email from >> members-discuss(a)nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net%3cmailto:members-discuss@nepustil.net>>. Learn why this is important at >> https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ] >> >> Hi! >> >> Thanks for writing up those stats. >> >>> Let's do some napkin math and comps with the other RIRs. [...] >>> >>> RIPE, revenue 38M EUR (40M USD), members 20k = 2 k/member ARIN, revenue 25M USD, members 25k = 1 k/member APNIC, revenue 33M AUD (21M USD), members 10k = 2 k/member LACNIC, revenue 10M USD, members 12k = 0.8 k/member AFRINIC, revenue 6M USD, members 2k = 3 k/member >> [...] >> >>> Now, in my opinion, there are a few surprises. >>> ARIN, located in a very expensive country, is quite efficient per member. >> >> I think one has to analyse if ARIN and RIPE do the same when it comes to reach-out, research etc. I'm not sure that ARIN is as active as RIPE is. Also: The language barrier in the service area is much more difficult to traverse than in the ARIN service area. And the RIPE has to cope with a very difficult legal and political landscape compared to ARIN. >> >>> On the other hand, AFRINIC seems to be rather inefficient. >> >> I would not hold that against AFRINIC, given their legal and political landscape. >> >> -- >> MfG/Best regards, Kurt Jaeger Now what ? Dr.-Ing. Nepustil & Co. GmbH fon +49 7123 93006-0 >> pi(a)nepustil.net<mailto:pi@nepustil.net> >> Rathausstr. 3 mob +49 171 3101372 >> 72658 Bempflingen >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >> https://list/ >> s.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss&data=05%7C02%7CEvgen iy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808dc5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd 573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786359237%7CUnknown%7CTW FpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6 Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=c1Ct1rc%2FVEmU%2FQQW9uF0M1pxl%2Fb%2Fu6vt ySSlccitatw%3D&reserved=0 >> Unsubscribe: >> https://list/ >> s.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Fsdy%2540a-n-t.ru&da ta=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7Cbd413097e10c441352a808d c5ec54984%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638489448786371 577%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTi I6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=N6K4cM8VFSdKljxWbyRHok brVc3o%2FuTxvapypwsGJ48%3D&reserved=0 >> > > > ----------------------------- > С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий > ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" > +7(498)785-8-000 раб. > +7(495)940-92-11 доп. > +7(925)518-10-69 сот. > > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.rip…<https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss> Unsubscribe: > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.rip…<https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/registry%40kyivstar.…> _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.rip…<https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss> Unsubscribe: > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.rip…<https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kajtzu%40basen.net> > ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот. ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by Daniel Pearson 17 Apr '24

17 Apr '24

Hello, Why do we not have an option that refuses any rate increases, and forces RIPE to reduce it's budget? Option D - No change to rates, RIPE reduces budget according to fewer number of LIR! The Board MUST make tough decisions. If RIPE is serving fewer LIR then the board must adjust RIPE to be a proper size. Daniel~ On 4/10/24 4:18 AM, Simon-Jan Haytink wrote: > > Dear RIPE NCC members, > > > We can now share three draft charging scheme models for 2025 that the > Executive Board approved with the following resolution at its meeting > on 25 March 2024: > > > The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the submission of the RIPE NCC > Charging Scheme 2025 options to the upcoming RIPE NCC General Meeting > for members to vote on. > > - Option A - Charging Scheme as is with 22.58% price increase for > the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,900) and a 0% price > increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 50) > > - Option B - Charging Scheme as is with 20.97% price increase for > the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,875) and a 50% price > increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) > > - Option C - Charging Scheme as is with 16.13% price increase for > the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price > increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR > 75) and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment > > > *Resources falling under this charge are IPv4 and IPv6 PI assignments; > Anycast assignments; IPv4 and IPv6 IXP assignments; and Legacy IPv4 > resource registrations through a sponsoring LIR. > > > The full draft charging scheme models are available from the GM > Documentation > page:https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/document… > <https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/documentation…> > > > Although the proposed models are relatively simple, we provide a > calculator where you can see exactly what you would pay under each of > the proposed models: > > https://www.ripe.net/documents/3757/CS2025_Member_Calculator.xlsx > <https://www.ripe.net/documents/3757/CS2025_Member_Calculator.xlsx> > > > The main considerations for the Executive Board in proposing these > three models are: > > 1. The consolidation of LIR accounts, which means the burden to > generate sufficient income must be met by fewer accounts > > 2. Increased costs due to inflation that were previously catered for > by the large number of LIR accounts > > 3. Following the discussions last year and again this year, there > appears to be no clear consensus among members on how a category-based > model would work and the Board does not wish to put another category > model forward at the upcoming GM that will be rejected by the members. > Rather, the Board will propose a simple model that guarantees adequate > funding for 2025 and 2026 - under this proposal, we expect there would > be no need for a fee increase for 2026. The Board will work with the > RIPE NCC on a more in-depth consultation with the members aimed at > arriving at a sustainable solution for 2027 and beyond, possibly > involving a new charging scheme task force. > > > All three proposed models are designed to arrive at the same income of > EUR 41.1 million for the RIPE NCC in 2025. This will cover all current > services and activities, a 5% staff cost increase, a 2% inflation > increase on all non-staff costs, and EUR 1 million for additional work > relating to registry complexity and security projects aimed at > ensuring the resilience of the Registry and the RIPE NCC more broadly. > Any such additional work would be discussed with the membership during > Activity Plan and Budget consultations and then need to be approved by > the Board. This will also allow some leeway should more LIR accounts > close than we expect. > > > It’s important to note that the RIPE NCC aims for an income budget > that will provide a surplus, and this means that should we meet our > budgetary targets, a surplus can be returned to members in 2026 should > they so wish. > > > While the RIPE NCC continues to carry out cost-cutting efforts across > the organisation, drastically reducing the budget at this time is not > advisable due to the work that needs to be carried out, especially in > relation to maintaining high-quality registry services and securing > the registry and RIPE NCC systems. Cutting services or activities is > not something the Board is planning to do, and such actions would take > time and need full consultation with the membership. An overview of > the activities and services that the membership fee covers is provided > below this email. > > > I also urge you to see the presentation we delivered at the charging > scheme open house in March so that the full context of the situation > and the financial landscape we face is clear to you. The slides are > available at: > > https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem… > <https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem…> > > > Finally, I want to thank all those who have contributed to the > consultation so far on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. The models > we present here are draft and in two weeks we will announce the final > proposal that members will vote on at the GM on 22-24 May. Please > discuss the draft proposal on the members-discuss(a)ripe.net > <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>list - any input received by 19 April > can be incorporated if possible into the final models we propose. And > make sure to register for the GM so that you can vote on the charging > scheme that will apply for you and all members next year: > > https://my.ripe.net/#/meetings/active > <https://my.ripe.net/#/meetings/active> > > > Simon-Jan Haytink > > Chief Financial Officer > > RIPE NCC > > > Services and Activities Covered by the Member Fee > > > - A trusted, efficient, accurate and resilient registry that > guarantees uniqueness of resources held by members > > - Neutral information services uninfluenced by commercial or > government interests that allow both the RIPE NCC and the community to > carry out useful research into the Internet > > - Engagement activities, including RIPE and regional meetings, that > build an active membership and community and that contribute to the > overall good of the Internet > > - A voice and influence for the membership in key decision-making > fora, including with governments and regulators > > - Protection of the Joint Internet Number Registry as developed by the > Internet community > > - Learning and development activities that help to address skills > shortages and contribute to an educated membership > > - Support for the Policy Development Process (PDP) > > - An authoritative registry of routing information provided by RPKI > and the RIPE Database > > - K-root and DNS services > > - A dedicated staff with considerable expertise contributing to all of > the above > >

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by sdy＠a-n-t.ru 15 Apr '24

15 Apr '24

If you pay more tax have you more rights? > On 15/04/2024 09:22, Michel Lanners wrote: >> Because RIPE is a MEMBERSHIP organisation. It’s not a commercial company selling something. >> >> If I’m asked to pay more I also want more voting rights. Consequence: the few big ones will dominate and steer RIPE in the direction THEY want. I don’t think that’s in the interest of those who yell at the unfair membership rate. >> >> RIPE is fair because every member has the same right and the same one vote. > > No, you're not getting more voting rights by paying more. > It is common practice in membership orgs to charge members according to their category or size, and it's still 1 member = 1 vote. > > > Sebastien Brossier > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru > ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.

2 1

Response from Board on Charging Scheme Comments
by Ondrej Filip 13 Apr '24

13 Apr '24

Dear members, Thank you very much for your comments on the proposed Charging Scheme options. I am sorry I am not able to answer all your messages individually. It is not in my capability to do so. However, I want to assure you we read all your comments and take them seriously. In this message I will, of course, not address those comments that express a support for the board's proposal. First of all, the board is carefully listening to the members. We opened several channels to collect your feedback. We had the RIPE NCC Survey followed by the Open House discussion, and both indicated that members want the RIPE NCC to continue with the current projects helping our primary mission, which is to support technical coordination in our region. I understand that some of you have different opinions but we need to also consider the wishes and opinions of the wider membership. So we are preparing the Activity Plan and Budget in this regard. The discussion on this topic will be held in the Autumn. But whatever is the output of this discussion, the Charging Scheme should cover the expected company costs. Please note that a vast majority of our costs are related to salaries. That is something that we cannot get rid off quickly even if we decide to stop some of the projects. The RIPE NCC has to and will respect the local labour law in the Netherlands and other respective countries. We (the board and staff) will be very happy to discuss the usefulness of all activities, but again the survey very strongly indicated that the majority of the members does not want any radical change in this regard and is satisfied with the current NCC activities. The board and the management of the company take very seriously members' concerns related to the company costs. We made a lot of effort to cut many of them last year and again this year. However, it is necessary to note that cost saving cannot go on indefinitely. We strongly believe that the quality of our services cannot be affected and that we should continue to provide world class services to our members and community. On top of it, please keep in mind the rapidly changing environment we operate in. The high inflation in the previous years is one of the drivers of the costs. We employ highly skilled people and I guess that is something most of you recognize. But those people deserve corresponding salaries. Another aspect is related to security and privacy. As you know we have made a lot of improvements in this area. And yet with NIS2, there will be more of it. Last but not least, the changing geo-political situation brings many additional burdens that we need to deal with. By that I mean sanctions and other things related to the biggest war in our service region during the RIPE NCC’s existence. Saying all that, again I don't want to reconcile to the fact that costs are rising. The board with the management will continue to find opportunities for cost saving. Also please keep in mind that the fees are upper limits of what the NCC needs to operate. If we create a surplus (which is what we believe in) it can be redistributed by the standard mechanisms we use. We do not want to needlessly accumulate money, but we have to be sure the fees can allow the NCC to operate in this rapidly changing environment. It wouldn't be responsible to propose fees that would not allow the NCC to cover its costs. On the comments asking that the RIPE NCC budget be linked to the number of LIR accounts, it is true that the number of LIR accounts is reducing. But the number of members is actually very stable and using the membership number as a guide provides more stability than looking at LIR numbers. And the costs for the RIPE NCC are not necessarily linked to the number of accounts anyway. Also, as I noted above, IPv4 scarcity and the outbreak of war has added a lot of complexity to the work of the RIPE NCC just as the number of LIR accounts has started to reduce. For example, work to secure the registry or defend the registry system needs to happen regardless of how many LIR accounts there are. Let me also address the point of the fee structure and alternative suggestions raised by several of you. I understand and sympathise with the idea that the current fee structure means that the majority of the budget is covered by small members while larger and richer companies pay a minor part. This concept was approved a long time ago and the board unsuccessfully tried to propose changes. We are very open to discuss this topic again and again, but so far there is no solid model on the table. But we hear you and we will continue this discussion with you. Again, thank you for your comments and reactions. I am looking forward to meeting you for the GM in the beautiful town of Krakow or online. On behalf of the Executive Board Ondrej

10 12

Unfair RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025
by Евгений Удовихин 13 Apr '24

13 Apr '24

Hello colleagues! I propose to add option "D" of LIR fees proportional to the number of IP resources and ASNs of a given LIR. Now we have an unfair situation when small companies and huge corporations pay the same amount. Thank you!

4 7

RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: Recording and Slides Available
by Fergal Cunningham 12 Apr '24

12 Apr '24

Dear all, This Wednesday, 20 March, we held an Open House with members about the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. There was a presentation from RIPE NCC staff, including our CFO and Managing Director, as well as statements from both the Executive Board Chair and Treasurer. There was a productive discussion about the financial landscape we are operating in and thoughts about how best to fund the RIPE NCC. The Executive Board will meet on Monday and discuss what we heard this week, and they will decide on a draft charging proposal to put forward to the members in April. The session recording and the slides from the presentation are available at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem… At the bottom of this mail you can find the timestamps for the sections of the presentation and Q&A. We greatly appreciate the input we received from members this week and the constructive nature of the discussions. We encourage you all to continue to discuss the charging scheme on this list. Kind regards, Fergal Cunningham Head of Membership Engagement RIPE NCC Open House Timestamps 01:30 Welcome and Agenda, Fergal Cunningham 04:30 Development and History of the Charging Scheme, Fergal Cunningham 12:45 Consolidation and Inflation, Simon Jan Haytink 19:10 The Work We Need to Fund, Simon Jan Haytink 22:30 Summary and Key Questions, Hans Petter Holen 27:20 Statement from Executive Board Chair, Ondřej Filip 30:30 Statement from Executive Board Treasurer, Raymond Jetten 32:45 Q&A with RIPE NCC Members

17 33

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by Kaj Niemi 12 Apr '24

12 Apr '24

Hi, Very politely put I do not think any of the three proposed charging schemes are in the membership's interest - they certainly aren't in mine. All three seem to be designed to assure that NCC can continue along, business as usual, with its tasks. Thus, we could pretend that there isn't a big issue with the membership numbers declining. We could also pretend there isn't a real problem with the value proposition of the services. Furthermore, we could also pretend that we do not care that it all is conveniently funded by the membership. I mean, what is 1500 or 1900 euro to most people? I have heard the last several times in the past. After all, why should we care about the expenditure when the sums are so small for each LIR? Why should we care when it is not our own money? I'll tell you. Not caring about the transaction size is bad, if you are willing to let these kinds of sums slide, you'll let it slide on bigger amounts. As is treating other people's money (OPM) differently than if it were your own. These eventually lead to lack of accountability. What is being proposed is really a significant increase in membership fees. In particular, significantly above what it used to cost on average to produce services for each member (whether they use them or not). Note when I say what it used to cost, as in FY2024 the cost per LIR will be higher. Now, with the membership in further decline the average cost per member will once more be higher in FY2025. Next year, I forecast that we will have the same "discussion" for FY2026 as NCC comes around and asks for more money. Once again. Why? Because according to projections the amount of members will continue to decrease resulting in higher fees per organization. Once again. All in the advantageous name of the articles of association that allow pretty much anything. Following the above rational thought with another is, that what one should be doing is choosing what to either invoice separately or drop completely. Yes, really. Everyone is happy with free services, it is when you apply the money test - request someone to pay for something - when you see if what you create contains value. Considering NCC managed to "save" 5% in the FY2024 budget compared to FY2023, asking for 8.1% increase (4% annualized) the next year is, well, kind of cheeky. It restores the budget pretty much to what it would have been with two annual increases. As an exercise in budgetary engineering I do approve. As a paying member I do not. What really would be needed is competition. Competition would make the RIR market more efficient. It is rather obvious that the RIR markets aren't anywhere near the efficiency they could be at. Competition would mean that people wanting to pay 1900 - or even more in the future - could choose to do so and those who don't want could potentially pay less. Reduced to the very basics one is paying for bits in a database. In that sense this is rather similar to the certificate market where at one time the cost per certificate was sky high and there were only a few issuers. Today, I am guessing most do not pay thousands annually for a few bits in theirs. Neither do most people care whether the cert was issued by Verisign, Gandi or someone else. Having looked into it out of curiosity, real competition does not seem to be possible as the principles in ICP-2 pretty much state that there can/should only be one RIR per region. Which makes NCC the definition of a monopoly. Monopolies with nice and polite people, well intended purpose and mission creep are not good, they're bad. For everyone. Finally, the surplus. The concept itself is interesting and I do know where it comes from. But from an financial point of view it is really lending money to someone else and then (maybe) getting it back, a year later, less inflation if they did not spend it. I would kindly request that the EB would add option D or "Option D: No Changes from 2023". :) Kaj Kaj ________________________________ From: ncc-announce <ncc-announce-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf of Simon-Jan Haytink <simonjh(a)ripe.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 12:18 To: ncc-announce(a)ripe.net <ncc-announce(a)ripe.net> Subject: [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals You don't often get email from simonjh(a)ripe.net. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Dear RIPE NCC members, We can now share three draft charging scheme models for 2025 that the Executive Board approved with the following resolution at its meeting on 25 March 2024: The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the submission of the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 options to the upcoming RIPE NCC General Meeting for members to vote on. - Option A - Charging Scheme as is with 22.58% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,900) and a 0% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 50) - Option B - Charging Scheme as is with 20.97% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,875) and a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) - Option C - Charging Scheme as is with 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment *Resources falling under this charge are IPv4 and IPv6 PI assignments; Anycast assignments; IPv4 and IPv6 IXP assignments; and Legacy IPv4 resource registrations through a sponsoring LIR. The full draft charging scheme models are available from the GM Documentation page: https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/documentation… Although the proposed models are relatively simple, we provide a calculator where you can see exactly what you would pay under each of the proposed models: https://www.ripe.net/documents/3757/CS2025_Member_Calculator.xlsx The main considerations for the Executive Board in proposing these three models are: 1. The consolidation of LIR accounts, which means the burden to generate sufficient income must be met by fewer accounts 2. Increased costs due to inflation that were previously catered for by the large number of LIR accounts 3. Following the discussions last year and again this year, there appears to be no clear consensus among members on how a category-based model would work and the Board does not wish to put another category model forward at the upcoming GM that will be rejected by the members. Rather, the Board will propose a simple model that guarantees adequate funding for 2025 and 2026 - under this proposal, we expect there would be no need for a fee increase for 2026. The Board will work with the RIPE NCC on a more in-depth consultation with the members aimed at arriving at a sustainable solution for 2027 and beyond, possibly involving a new charging scheme task force. All three proposed models are designed to arrive at the same income of EUR 41.1 million for the RIPE NCC in 2025. This will cover all current services and activities, a 5% staff cost increase, a 2% inflation increase on all non-staff costs, and EUR 1 million for additional work relating to registry complexity and security projects aimed at ensuring the resilience of the Registry and the RIPE NCC more broadly. Any such additional work would be discussed with the membership during Activity Plan and Budget consultations and then need to be approved by the Board. This will also allow some leeway should more LIR accounts close than we expect. It’s important to note that the RIPE NCC aims for an income budget that will provide a surplus, and this means that should we meet our budgetary targets, a surplus can be returned to members in 2026 should they so wish. While the RIPE NCC continues to carry out cost-cutting efforts across the organisation, drastically reducing the budget at this time is not advisable due to the work that needs to be carried out, especially in relation to maintaining high-quality registry services and securing the registry and RIPE NCC systems. Cutting services or activities is not something the Board is planning to do, and such actions would take time and need full consultation with the membership. An overview of the activities and services that the membership fee covers is provided below this email. I also urge you to see the presentation we delivered at the charging scheme open house in March so that the full context of the situation and the financial landscape we face is clear to you. The slides are available at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem… Finally, I want to thank all those who have contributed to the consultation so far on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. The models we present here are draft and in two weeks we will announce the final proposal that members will vote on at the GM on 22-24 May. Please discuss the draft proposal on the members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> list - any input received by 19 April can be incorporated if possible into the final models we propose. And make sure to register for the GM so that you can vote on the charging scheme that will apply for you and all members next year: https://my.ripe.net/#/meetings/active Simon-Jan Haytink Chief Financial Officer RIPE NCC Services and Activities Covered by the Member Fee - A trusted, efficient, accurate and resilient registry that guarantees uniqueness of resources held by members - Neutral information services uninfluenced by commercial or government interests that allow both the RIPE NCC and the community to carry out useful research into the Internet - Engagement activities, including RIPE and regional meetings, that build an active membership and community and that contribute to the overall good of the Internet - A voice and influence for the membership in key decision-making fora, including with governments and regulators - Protection of the Joint Internet Number Registry as developed by the Internet community - Learning and development activities that help to address skills shortages and contribute to an educated membership - Support for the Policy Development Process (PDP) - An authoritative registry of routing information provided by RPKI and the RIPE Database - K-root and DNS services - A dedicated staff with considerable expertise contributing to all of the above

26 43

[RFC] Motion/Proposal for Amendments to RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025
by Denys Fedoryshchenko 11 Apr '24

11 Apr '24

Dear RIPE Members, I am writing to propose amendments to the "RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025" for discussion. Below are the details of the proposed changes: Proposal for a Proportional Charging Model: We suggest that RIPE NCC implement a charging model based on the number of IPv4 subnets allocated to each member. This model would replace the existing flat fee structure, aiming to distribute costs more equitably among members according to their usage of number resources. Such a model would ensure that charges correspond to the scale of each member's operations and resource needs. Reduction of Annual Budget Based on Current Economic Trends: Given the economic downturn affecting our industry, we recommend that RIPE NCC conduct a thorough review of its annual budget to identify and reduce non-essential expenditures. Prioritizing core activities is crucial, especially in light of the decline in LIR membership numbers. Adjusting budget allocations to current economic realities will help stabilize the organization and alleviate financial pressure on its members. Furthermore, I have reviewed the archive and identified 41 unique email addresses that participated in discussions about this charging scheme. It appears that a consensus of at least 21 affirmative votes should prompt RIPE NCC and the relevant working group to consider the community's stance seriously. Accordingly, I propose a motion to include the following options in the charging scheme discussion: A) Maintain the current budget. B) Reduce the budget, possibly in proportion to the decrease in LIR numbers. C) Introduce fees for LIRs based on their allocated IPv4 resources. I suggest conducting a non-binding poll to gauge preferences on these options. While I am not authorized to initiate official voting, gathering responses could help us understand whether the demand for significant changes represents a majority view or just a few vocal opinions. Please reply to this email with your vote: YES or NO after each option. Best regards, Denys Fedoryshchenko

4 5

Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: Recording and Slides Available
by sdy＠a-n-t.ru 11 Apr '24

11 Apr '24

Ivaylo, sorry but if you want count money in my pockets, let's count your too! How much IPv4 have you companies? Use or not IPv6 - is the choice! Everyone have different businesses. If we need we will use it!! Many companies now need more IPv4 for they work or grow! It is not right that some limit group of people was taken something and speculate it, when it is needed for other people. Many LIR's need IPv4, but now some 'oldmans' want to make buisness on free resources. It is not clear business for me. Sorry, it is abnormal then something that giving for free is resale for 10 euros per year. If RIPE and NCC will not decide problem with IPv4 and AS it will make much more problems for all. Unfortunately I can see another way - divide Internet by paths and redistribute resources again in this paths by new NCC or goverments - would you like it? > >> Sorry, it is already was discussed. >> It's wrong model with categories. ... > > So all other RIRs are wrong ? Only RIPE is on the right road ? > > From what I see "Alpha Net Telecom" still do not have IPV6 (why?) and your company holds sumary less of 2 x /19 IPV4 blocks so ... > > I wrote about my calculation (based on IANA resources delegated to RIPE) for charging scheme a week ago: Your company will pay 1500 euro / year and RIPE bugdet will be up to 64M - sustainable for the next 10 years. So why you lobbing for something worse for you ? > > Let me tell you what will happen if we keep going with the flat fee for all... Merging Merging Merging in the end will left 2k-3k members (levels around 2005). You will be pay then 21 000 Euro and your resources will be still same. When 10 other LIRs are merged each of them will pay 2k again and will have same resources. how it sounds to you ? What you will say then in that future moment ? Do you think you can make a change in RIPE charging scheme _THEN_ (when all will waht to keep going with the flat > model) ? > > > Ivaylo Josifov > VarnaIX / Varteh LTD > +359 52 969393 > Varna, Bulgaria > > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy(a)a-n-t.ru wrote: > >> Sorry, it is already was discussed. >> It's wrong model with categories. It do not anything to decide resources deficits. >> It is strongly must be payment for each assigned deficit resource, like was the land tax in England. Only this way making all NCC equal in their >> rights, and will return unused resources to NCC. >> >> WE need to vote at first MUST we pay for each deficit resource or not. And >> it NEED to take in vote all NCC members! >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> >>> i dont understand, why RIPE try to punish the small providers, as a non-profit organisation. They are trying to punish the small providers and >>> strengthen or favor big proividers. >>> >>> >>> >>> There are thousends of solution advices from members as i see. Many good >>> offers but also examples from other RIRs. Why still try to monopolize the >>> sector by doing this. >>> >>> >>> >>> For example: >>> >>> >>> >>> IPv4 = IPv4 Allocations /24 >>> >>> MF = Yearly Fee >>> >>> AF = Allocation Fee >>> >>> PR = Percentage of the Yearly Fee to the Allocation Fee >>> >>> >>> >>> IPv4 MF AF >>> PR >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> 16384 1.875 1.228.800 >>> %0,15 >>> >>> 4096 1.875 307.200 >>> %0,6 >>> >>> 256 1.875 19.200 >>> %9,7 >>> >>> 16 1.875 1.200 >>> %156 >>> >>> 1 1.875 75 >>> %2500 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> All the adviced models are very similar and as you can see, for the smaller providers it is so dependant. >>> >>> >>> >>> And another point is, that the adviced schemes are almost identical. What >>> should be chosen, i am not sure. >>> >>> >>> >>> If needed, surely can be found many solution variations, and i am sure better than adviced schemes. >>> >>> >>> >>> Instead of monopolizing the big providers, by advicing consolidation, you >>> should provide some relif for small providers. >>> >>> >>> >>> And in all the adviced schemes the Yaerly Fee for every LIR account is too >>> much for small providers? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en / Best Regards >>> >>> Murat TERZIOGLU >>> PREBITS >>> >>> >>> >>> Bochumer Str. 20 >>> >>> 44866 Bochum >>> >>> Deutschland >>> >>> >>> >>> Telefon: 0234/58825994 >>> >>> Telefax: 0234/58825995 >>> >>> >>> >>> <http://www.prebits.de/> www.prebits.de >>> >>> <mailto:info@prebits.de> info(a)prebits.de >>> >>> >>> >>> USt-ID: DE315418902 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net> Im Auftrag von Martin Millnert via members-discuss >>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. April 2024 14:43 >>> An: Fergal Cunningham <fergalc(a)ripe.net> >>> Cc: members-discuss(a)ripe.net >>> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: >>> Recording and Slides Available >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Fergal, >>> >>> >>> >>> I don?t envy the challenge of the board with this feedback, but I suspect >>> it is wise to listen to it else the platform for new candidates to the board the next 5 years seems to be pretty straightforward and likely to be >>> elected: Cost reductions. >>> >>> >>> >>> As a side, doesn?t the articles of association allow for membership organized items for AGM to vote on as well? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Martin Millnert >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10 Apr 2024, at 15:38, Fergal Cunningham <fergalc(a)ripe.net >>> <mailto:fergalc@ripe.net> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Martin, >>> >>> The Executive Board decided on these draft options at its meeting on 25th >>> of March. So now the Board and management will follow the feedback on the >>> draft proposal on the list. They will decide by 24 April if these will be >>> the final options to vote on at the GM or if they want to make amendments. >>> So essentially the decision on what gets voted on at the GM is made by the >>> Board. You can see the minutes from that meeting here (section 3.3 on the >>> Charging Scheme): >>> https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2024/174th-executive-… >>> >>> And it's worth mentioning that this list is for members to discuss the issues while we and the board will listen. But we will of course reply and >>> provide information to address the points raised if at all possible. >>> >>> All the best, >>> Fergal >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 2:41?PM <sdy(a)a-n-t.ru <mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi all! >>> >>> I want to ask add to vote variant D. >>> All as was before+5% inflation and 10E per 1024 addresses IPv4 per year (counting at 31 december). Can we try to vote it too? >>> >>>> >>>>> On 22 Mar 2024, at 15:27, Fergal Cunningham <fergalc(a)ripe.net <mailto:fergalc@ripe.net> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> This Wednesday, 20 March, we held an Open House with members about the >>>>> RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. There was a presentation from RIPE NCC staff, including our CFO and Managing Director, as well as statements from both the Executive Board Chair and Treasurer. >>>>> >>>>> There was a productive discussion about the financial landscape we are >>>>> operating in and thoughts about how best to fund the RIPE NCC. The Executive Board will meet on Monday and discuss what we heard this week, >>>>> and they will decide on a draft charging proposal to put forward to the >>>>> members in April. >>>>> >>>>> The session recording and the slides from the presentation are available >>>>> at: >>>>> https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem… >>>>> >>>>> At the bottom of this mail you can find the timestamps for the sections >>>>> of the presentation and Q&A. >>>>> >>>>> We greatly appreciate the input we received from members this week and >>>>> the constructive nature of the discussions. We encourage you all to continue to discuss the charging scheme on this list. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Fergal Cunningham >>>>> Head of Membership Engagement >>>>> RIPE NCC >>>>> >>>>> Open House Timestamps >>>>> >>>>> 01:30 Welcome and Agenda, Fergal Cunningham >>>>> 04:30 Development and History of the Charging Scheme, Fergal Cunningham >>>>> 12:45 Consolidation and Inflation, Simon Jan Haytink >>>>> 19:10 The Work We Need to Fund, Simon Jan Haytink >>>>> 22:30 Summary and Key Questions, Hans Petter Holen >>>>> 27:20 Statement from Executive Board Chair, Ond?ej Filip >>>>> 30:30 Statement from Executive Board Treasurer, Raymond Jetten 32:45 Q&A with RIPE NCC Members >>>> >>>> Dear Fergal, >>>> >>>> What is the formal process of deciding what options the AGM get to vote >>>> at, during the upcoming AGM? >>>> >>>> >>>> I would like to suggest a Consumer Price Index based re-indexing of the >>>> costs, using standard European CPI numbers from Eurostat. We all have to >>>> deal with increases in costs due to inflation, and it?s fair that RIPE does not have to fight inflation alone. Yearly inflation as released in >>>> March 2024 was at 2.4% ? >>>> https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-euro-indicators/w/2-03042024-ap >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Martin_______________________________________________ >>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>> members-discuss(a)ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>> Unsubscribe: >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru >>>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------- >>> ? ????????? ???????? ??????? >>> ??? "????? ??? ???????" >>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???. >>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???. >>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> members-discuss mailing list >>> members-discuss(a)ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> >>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>> Unsubscribe: >>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/martin.millnert%40br… >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> members-discuss mailing list >>> members-discuss(a)ripe.net >>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>> Unsubscribe: >>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru >>> >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> ? ????????? ???????? ??????? >> ??? "????? ??? ???????" >> +7(498)785-8-000 ???. >> +7(495)940-92-11 ???. >> +7(925)518-10-69 ???. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ivaylo%40bglans.net >> > ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот. ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by ivaylo 11 Apr '24

11 Apr '24

First let look to other RIR charging schemes: ARIN: https://www.arin.net/resources/fees/fee_schedule/ APNIC: https://www.apnic.net/get-ip/apnic-membership/how-much-does-it-cost/member-… LACNIC: https://www.lacnic.net/5448/2/lacnic/ _All charging schemes are based on LIR resourse holding_ I dont understand why RIPE NCC keep shooting self in the head. With the 3 options the board presenting we - members have 2 options to act: 1. Aggressively consolidating 2. Pressing to lower the budget If the LIRs number drop to 2000 members with budget of 42M will lead to ---> 21 000 EURO <--- fee for each. Wich will lead to 100% budget cuts. So we are in a close circle which will 100% disrupt Internet work in the region. The only way to get out of this is to follow the other RIRs. Let bigger resource holder take their responsibility and finance RIPE work bigger share ! To RIPE's board, check other RIRs charging schemes and offer something fair and sustainable in long term, not like last year non sense scheme ! Ivaylo Josifov VarnaIX / Varteh LTD +359 52 969393 Varna, Bulgaria On Wed, 10 Apr 2024, Simon-Jan Haytink wrote: > > Dear RIPE NCC members, > > > We can now share three draft charging scheme models for 2025 that the > Executive Board approved with the following resolution at its meeting on 25 > March 2024: > > > The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the submission of the RIPE NCC > Charging Scheme 2025 options to the upcoming RIPE NCC General Meeting for > members to vote on. > > > - Option A - Charging Scheme as is with 22.58% price increase for the annual > contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,900) and a 0% price increase for > Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 50) > > - Option B - Charging Scheme as is with 20.97% price increase for the annual > contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,875) and a 50% price increase for > Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) > > - Option C - Charging Scheme as is with 16.13% price increase for the annual > contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for > Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) and a new AS > Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment > > > *Resources falling under this charge are IPv4 and IPv6 PI assignments; > Anycast assignments; IPv4 and IPv6 IXP assignments; and Legacy IPv4 resource > registrations through a sponsoring LIR. > > > The full draft charging scheme models are available from the GM > Documentation page: > https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/documentation > -and-archives/supporting-documents/ > > > Although the proposed models are relatively simple, we provide a calculator > where you can see exactly what you would pay under each of the proposed > models: > > https://www.ripe.net/documents/3757/CS2025_Member_Calculator.xlsx > > > The main considerations for the Executive Board in proposing these three > models are: > > 1. The consolidation of LIR accounts, which means the burden to generate > sufficient income must be met by fewer accounts > > 2. Increased costs due to inflation that were previously catered for by the > large number of LIR accounts > > 3. Following the discussions last year and again this year, there appears to > be no clear consensus among members on how a category-based model would work > and the Board does not wish to put another category model forward at the > upcoming GM that will be rejected by the members. Rather, the Board will > propose a simple model that guarantees adequate funding for 2025 and 2026 - > under this proposal, we expect there would be no need for a fee increase for > 2026. The Board will work with the RIPE NCC on a more in-depth consultation > with the members aimed at arriving at a sustainable solution for 2027 and > beyond, possibly involving a new charging scheme task force. > > > All three proposed models are designed to arrive at the same income of EUR > 41.1 million for the RIPE NCC in 2025. This will cover all current services > and activities, a 5% staff cost increase, a 2% inflation increase on all > non-staff costs, and EUR 1 million for additional work relating to registry > complexity and security projects aimed at ensuring the resilience of the > Registry and the RIPE NCC more broadly. Any such additional work would be > discussed with the membership during Activity Plan and Budget consultations > and then need to be approved by the Board. This will also allow some leeway > should more LIR accounts close than we expect. > > > It?s important to note that the RIPE NCC aims for an income budget that will > provide a surplus, and this means that should we meet our budgetary targets, > a surplus can be returned to members in 2026 should they so wish. > > > While the RIPE NCC continues to carry out cost-cutting efforts across the > organisation, drastically reducing the budget at this time is not advisable > due to the work that needs to be carried out, especially in relation to > maintaining high-quality registry services and securing the registry and > RIPE NCC systems. Cutting services or activities is not something the Board > is planning to do, and such actions would take time and need full > consultation with the membership. An overview of the activities and services > that the membership fee covers is provided below this email. > > > I also urge you to see the presentation we delivered at the charging scheme > open house in March so that the full context of the situation and the > financial landscape we face is clear to you. The slides are available at: > > https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem > e-2025/ > > > Finally, I want to thank all those who have contributed to the consultation > so far on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. The models we present here are > draft and in two weeks we will announce the final proposal that members will > vote on at the GM on 22-24 May. Please discuss the draft proposal on the > members-discuss(a)ripe.net list - any input received by 19 April can be > incorporated if possible into the final models we propose. And make sure to > register for the GM so that you can vote on the charging scheme that will > apply for you and all members next year: > > https://my.ripe.net/#/meetings/active > > > Simon-Jan Haytink > > Chief Financial Officer > > RIPE NCC > > > Services and Activities Covered by the Member Fee > > > - A trusted, efficient, accurate and resilient registry that guarantees > uniqueness of resources held by members > > - Neutral information services uninfluenced by commercial or government > interests that allow both the RIPE NCC and the community to carry out useful > research into the Internet > > - Engagement activities, including RIPE and regional meetings, that build an > active membership and community and that contribute to the overall good of > the Internet > > - A voice and influence for the membership in key decision-making fora, > including with governments and regulators > > - Protection of the Joint Internet Number Registry as developed by the > Internet community > > - Learning and development activities that help to address skills shortages > and contribute to an educated membership > > - Support for the Policy Development Process (PDP) > > - An authoritative registry of routing information provided by RPKI and the > RIPE Database > > - K-root and DNS services > > - A dedicated staff with considerable expertise contributing to all of the > above > > >

2 1

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by Kai Siering 11 Apr '24

11 Apr '24

Hi, am 10.04.24 um 11:18 schrieb Simon-Jan Haytink: > The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the submission of the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 options to the upcoming RIPE NCC General Meeting for members to vote on. > > - Option A - Charging Scheme as is with 22.58% price increase […] > > - Option B - Charging Scheme as is with 20.97% price increase […] > > - Option C - Charging Scheme as is with 16.13% price increase […] > > > […] > > All three proposed models are designed to arrive at the same income of EUR 41.1 million for the RIPE NCC in 2025. This will cover all current services and activities, […] Unlike 2023, when there was an "Option D - No Change" – keeping the Bugdet at EUR 38 million –, there no such option this time: Why? Coming from a EUR 38 million budget for 2024, reaching EUR 41.1 million would mean an increase of about 8.16%. Already in 2023 there was a call from members to revisit, actually: reduce appropriately, the spendings — when did I miss the voting on which projects to reduce and/or stop, to adjust the Budget due to the diminishing number of paying members? It's stated every now and then that RIPE NCC is a membership association. Statements like »cutting services or activities is not something the Board is planning to do« – especially reviewing yesteryear's discussion about the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 – make this sound like a hollow phrase. The membership raised concerns on an ever-growing Budget in the past — why is the Board still ignoring these? Furthermore, offering no option to express »none of the above, go back to square 1« constitutes a disturbing ignorance of expressed member's concerns. Regards, -kai -- Kai Siering Senior System Engineer mail.de GmbH Münsterstraße 3 D-33330 Gütersloh Tel.: +49 (0) 5241 / 74 34 986 Fax: +49 (0) 5241 / 74 34 987 E-Mail:k.siering@team.mail.de Web:https://mail.de/ Geschäftsführender Gesellschafter: Fabian Bock Sitz der Gesellschaft Nordhastedt Handelsregister Pinneberg HRB 8007 PI Steuernummer 18 293 20020

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[ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by Pim van Pelt 10 Apr '24

10 Apr '24

Hi Simon-Jan, list, The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the submission of the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 options to the upcoming RIPE NCC General Meeting for members to vote on. - Option A - Charging Scheme as is with 22.58% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,900) and a 0% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 50) - Option B - Charging Scheme as is with 20.97% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,875) and a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) - Option C - Charging Scheme as is with 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment This charging scheme proposal ignores essential feedback from the community for the last several years about the expenses of RIPE NCC with respect to critical services of a registry, versus other, non-critical services in the research and development arena. The enumeration of services covered by the member fee does not exhaustively list all projects and expenses from the RIPE NCC, nor does it make a distinction which are necessary as a part of the RIR services, versus which are nice to have. While I am not opposed to the options the board gave, per se, I would vote for the repeatedly requested 'option D', and defund non-critical, non-registry related activities before raising membership prices. An operating expense of 40MM/yr strikes me as an inefficient use of membership fees for the purposes of operating a registry, and as others have pointed out: because membership is required, it can be considered logical for registry services, but it should not be taken as a given that LIRs wish to fund non-registry services and projects. I also find it questionable that the cost of registration services are not scaled by size of allocation, as the # of requests and administrative operations, as well as the compute needed to run the registry's core services will likely scale with number of objects/resources/operations, not with the number of LIRs. groet, Pim -- Pim van Pelt<pim(a)ipng.ch> PBVP1-RIPEhttps://ipng.ch/

1 0

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by Clément Cavadore 10 Apr '24

10 Apr '24

Hello Simon-Jan, colleagues, Excuse my wording, but: WTF is wrong ?! So, we are offered only 3 options, which are all unacceptable in my point of view (and, for sure, in many of the members I represent). Option A: Increase of 22.58%. Well, it's not like if the lir reduction was not predictible, since more than 10 years ago. And it's not like NCC does not have reserve. Option B: Increase of almost 21% *and* increase of sponsoring resources pricing. Almost worse, as it will require substancial paperwork for us, members, in order to either increase pricing on our own end users, or just let them try to find other LIRs. Option C: Still an increase (a bit lower, but still significant), and even more paperwork with end-users, as ASN are also included in the costs. I am really unhappy with all of those options, and I do not feel that NCC has listened to their membership. I still think this is unfair that extra large org do not pay some waaay more significant amount than smaller members. And I still don't get why NCC still wants to maintain such a budget. No, we are not members, we are just some financing- organisations, with no options, as RIPE has a monopoly on their "market". Please, change your billing options, and do not try to keep such a high budget. I am really disappointed about this draft scheme, and I do not want to vote for any option. This is so unfair. RIPE does not sounds anymore like a membership-based organisation to me. Regards, Clément Cavadore Le 10 avril 2024 11:18:19 GMT+02:00, Simon-Jan Haytink <simonjh(a)ripe.net> a écrit : >Dear RIPE NCC members, > >We can now share three draft charging scheme models for 2025 that the Executive Board approved with the following resolution at its meeting on 25 March 2024: > >The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the submission of the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 options to the upcoming RIPE NCC General Meeting for members to vote on. > >- Option A - Charging Scheme as is with 22.58% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,900) and a 0% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 50) >- Option B - Charging Scheme as is with 20.97% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,875) and a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) >- Option C - Charging Scheme as is with 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment > >*Resources falling under this charge are IPv4 and IPv6 PI assignments; Anycast assignments; IPv4 and IPv6 IXP assignments; and Legacy IPv4 resource registrations through a sponsoring LIR. > >The full draft charging scheme models are available from the GM Documentation page: >https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/documentation… > >Although the proposed models are relatively simple, we provide a calculator where you can see exactly what you would pay under each of the proposed models: >https://www.ripe.net/documents/3757/CS2025_Member_Calculator.xlsx > >The main considerations for the Executive Board in proposing these three models are: >1. The consolidation of LIR accounts, which means the burden to generate sufficient income must be met by fewer accounts >2. Increased costs due to inflation that were previously catered for by the large number of LIR accounts >3. Following the discussions last year and again this year, there appears to be no clear consensus among members on how a category-based model would work and the Board does not wish to put another category model forward at the upcoming GM that will be rejected by the members. Rather, the Board will propose a simple model that guarantees adequate funding for 2025 and 2026 - under this proposal, we expect there would be no need for a fee increase for 2026. The Board will work with the RIPE NCC on a more in-depth consultation with the members aimed at arriving at a sustainable solution for 2027 and beyond, possibly involving a new charging scheme task force. > >All three proposed models are designed to arrive at the same income of EUR 41.1 million for the RIPE NCC in 2025. This will cover all current services and activities, a 5% staff cost increase, a 2% inflation increase on all non-staff costs, and EUR 1 million for additional work relating to registry complexity and security projects aimed at ensuring the resilience of the Registry and the RIPE NCC more broadly. Any such additional work would be discussed with the membership during Activity Plan and Budget consultations and then need to be approved by the Board. This will also allow some leeway should more LIR accounts close than we expect. > >It’s important to note that the RIPE NCC aims for an income budget that will provide a surplus, and this means that should we meet our budgetary targets, a surplus can be returned to members in 2026 should they so wish. > >While the RIPE NCC continues to carry out cost-cutting efforts across the organisation, drastically reducing the budget at this time is not advisable due to the work that needs to be carried out, especially in relation to maintaining high-quality registry services and securing the registry and RIPE NCC systems. Cutting services or activities is not something the Board is planning to do, and such actions would take time and need full consultation with the membership. An overview of the activities and services that the membership fee covers is provided below this email. > >I also urge you to see the presentation we delivered at the charging scheme open house in March so that the full context of the situation and the financial landscape we face is clear to you. The slides are available at: >https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem… > >Finally, I want to thank all those who have contributed to the consultation so far on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. The models we present here are draft and in two weeks we will announce the final proposal that members will vote on at the GM on 22-24 May. Please discuss the draft proposal on the members-discuss(a)ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> list - any input received by 19 April can be incorporated if possible into the final models we propose. And make sure to register for the GM so that you can vote on the charging scheme that will apply for you and all members next year: >https://my.ripe.net/#/meetings/active > >Simon-Jan Haytink >Chief Financial Officer >RIPE NCC > >Services and Activities Covered by the Member Fee > >- A trusted, efficient, accurate and resilient registry that guarantees uniqueness of resources held by members >- Neutral information services uninfluenced by commercial or government interests that allow both the RIPE NCC and the community to carry out useful research into the Internet >- Engagement activities, including RIPE and regional meetings, that build an active membership and community and that contribute to the overall good of the Internet >- A voice and influence for the membership in key decision-making fora, including with governments and regulators >- Protection of the Joint Internet Number Registry as developed by the Internet community >- Learning and development activities that help to address skills shortages and contribute to an educated membership >- Support for the Policy Development Process (PDP) >- An authoritative registry of routing information provided by RPKI and the RIPE Database >- K-root and DNS services >- A dedicated staff with considerable expertise contributing to all of the above -- Envoyé de mon appareil Android avec Courriel K-9 Mail. Veuillez excuser ma brièveté.

1 0

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by Gert Doering 10 Apr '24

10 Apr '24

Hi, On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 11:18:19AM +0200, Simon-Jan Haytink wrote: > - Option C - Charging Scheme as is with 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment Contrary to the to-be-expected flurry of mails expressing their dislike, I want to express my happiness with this one. As the address policy WG has stated a few times, we need an incentive for returning ASNs, and right now, there is only "the NCC has to ask again and again, and burn our money doing this". (I expect voting to, again, go against "fee per AS number", for reasons I do not understand - for the vast majority, this lowers the remaining fees, and per-customer ASNs can be billed just fine to the customers in question) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Ingo Lalla, Karin Schuler Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279

1 0

Charging Scheme 2025
by Michel Lanners 10 Apr '24

10 Apr '24

Dear all, Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources? I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way). It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer! And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line. Cheers Michel LANNERS CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. -- <https://www.luxchat.lu/> Mail: michel.lanners(a)lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81 LU-CIX Management G.I.E. 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F L-3290 Bettembourg lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu/> luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu/> luxembourg-internet-days.com <https://luxembourg-internet-days.com/> lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu/>

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
by Michele Neylon - Blacknight 10 Apr '24

10 Apr '24

Simon-Jan Thanks for sharing this. While nobody likes an increase in costs, the reality is that they are unavoidable. RIPE and the broader internet community is coming under increased scrutiny and regulation at both a local (national), regional and international level. Upcoming legislation such as NIS2 will increase the costs of compliance for many of us. And sadly good staff are both hard to find and not cheap. So while I’m not “delighted” by an increase I think the proposals are reasonable. The calculator is helpful for people like me who hate designing spreadsheets! Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours. From: ncc-announce <ncc-announce-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf of Simon-Jan Haytink <simonjh(a)ripe.net> Date: Wednesday, 10 April 2024 at 11:52 To: ncc-announce(a)ripe.net <ncc-announce(a)ripe.net> Subject: [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources. Dear RIPE NCC members, We can now share three draft charging scheme models for 2025 that the Executive Board approved with the following resolution at its meeting on 25 March 2024: The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the submission of the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 options to the upcoming RIPE NCC General Meeting for members to vote on. - Option A - Charging Scheme as is with 22.58% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,900) and a 0% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 50) - Option B - Charging Scheme as is with 20.97% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,875) and a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) - Option C - Charging Scheme as is with 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment *Resources falling under this charge are IPv4 and IPv6 PI assignments; Anycast assignments; IPv4 and IPv6 IXP assignments; and Legacy IPv4 resource registrations through a sponsoring LIR. The full draft charging scheme models are available from the GM Documentation page: https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/documentation… Although the proposed models are relatively simple, we provide a calculator where you can see exactly what you would pay under each of the proposed models: https://www.ripe.net/documents/3757/CS2025_Member_Calculator.xlsx The main considerations for the Executive Board in proposing these three models are: 1. The consolidation of LIR accounts, which means the burden to generate sufficient income must be met by fewer accounts 2. Increased costs due to inflation that were previously catered for by the large number of LIR accounts 3. Following the discussions last year and again this year, there appears to be no clear consensus among members on how a category-based model would work and the Board does not wish to put another category model forward at the upcoming GM that will be rejected by the members. Rather, the Board will propose a simple model that guarantees adequate funding for 2025 and 2026 - under this proposal, we expect there would be no need for a fee increase for 2026. The Board will work with the RIPE NCC on a more in-depth consultation with the members aimed at arriving at a sustainable solution for 2027 and beyond, possibly involving a new charging scheme task force. All three proposed models are designed to arrive at the same income of EUR 41.1 million for the RIPE NCC in 2025. This will cover all current services and activities, a 5% staff cost increase, a 2% inflation increase on all non-staff costs, and EUR 1 million for additional work relating to registry complexity and security projects aimed at ensuring the resilience of the Registry and the RIPE NCC more broadly. Any such additional work would be discussed with the membership during Activity Plan and Budget consultations and then need to be approved by the Board. This will also allow some leeway should more LIR accounts close than we expect. It’s important to note that the RIPE NCC aims for an income budget that will provide a surplus, and this means that should we meet our budgetary targets, a surplus can be returned to members in 2026 should they so wish. While the RIPE NCC continues to carry out cost-cutting efforts across the organisation, drastically reducing the budget at this time is not advisable due to the work that needs to be carried out, especially in relation to maintaining high-quality registry services and securing the registry and RIPE NCC systems. Cutting services or activities is not something the Board is planning to do, and such actions would take time and need full consultation with the membership. An overview of the activities and services that the membership fee covers is provided below this email. I also urge you to see the presentation we delivered at the charging scheme open house in March so that the full context of the situation and the financial landscape we face is clear to you. The slides are available at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-schem… Finally, I want to thank all those who have contributed to the consultation so far on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. The models we present here are draft and in two weeks we will announce the final proposal that members will vote on at the GM on 22-24 May. Please discuss the draft proposal on the members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> list - any input received by 19 April can be incorporated if possible into the final models we propose. And make sure to register for the GM so that you can vote on the charging scheme that will apply for you and all members next year: https://my.ripe.net/#/meetings/active Simon-Jan Haytink Chief Financial Officer RIPE NCC Services and Activities Covered by the Member Fee - A trusted, efficient, accurate and resilient registry that guarantees uniqueness of resources held by members - Neutral information services uninfluenced by commercial or government interests that allow both the RIPE NCC and the community to carry out useful research into the Internet - Engagement activities, including RIPE and regional meetings, that build an active membership and community and that contribute to the overall good of the Internet - A voice and influence for the membership in key decision-making fora, including with governments and regulators - Protection of the Joint Internet Number Registry as developed by the Internet community - Learning and development activities that help to address skills shortages and contribute to an educated membership - Support for the Policy Development Process (PDP) - An authoritative registry of routing information provided by RPKI and the RIPE Database - K-root and DNS services - A dedicated staff with considerable expertise contributing to all of the above

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Ticket systems on member discuss
by Patrick Velder 10 Apr '24

10 Apr '24

Hi, once again this one very old topic. Since I've posted on this list, I'm prowd owner of 4 new accounts in random LIR's ticket systems. I think it's time to address this issue. Best regards Patrick

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Re: [members-discuss] Charging Scheme 2025
by sdy＠a-n-t.ru 10 Apr '24

10 Apr '24

And again.... It does not matter How much it will be paid this year per IPv4 to RIPE 10E or 0,001E per one IP. We NEED! We MUST to start take money for difficite resource - IPv4 and ASN 16b. First year it can be 1E per /24 and 1 AS. Next it will grow grow grow. So everyone will be need to pay or move to the next versions of protocols! So lets start with NO change in charge, but add some payment for resources to compensate inflation. Last my variant D: Stay payment as last year + 1E per each /24 + 1E per 16b AS > of course, that the fee per IP will change the price in the market. > > if there is no fee and it does not generate any costs then no one moves it. > > it's simple when you pay for something you have to consider whether to pay for the resource or sell it > > > > currently there are more than 15% of completely unused addresses. > > and I suppose that another 10% are addresses which, after cleaning up and paying fees, would be redundant or so insignificant that someone would either lease or sell them. > > > > Which may end up on the exchange which will result in a drop in price and better availability for all who need IPv4 addresses > > > > Translated with DeepL.com (free version) > > > > Best Regard’s / Pozdrawiam > > Gabriel Sulka > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Firma Handlowo - Usługowa KOMPEX > > 34-400 Nowy Targ ul. Szaflarska 62A > > tel(18) 264-60-55 pn-pt 09:30 - 17:00 sb. 09:30 - 13:00 > > www.kompex.pl ; bok(a)kompex.pl ; kompex(a)nowytarg.net > > > > From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of Daniel Pearson > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 3:44 PM > To: members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging Scheme 2025 > > > > IPv4 sells in the private market for anywhere from $40-$50 per address. > > > > When a /24 is worth $10,000~ > > When a /22 is worth $40,000~ > When a /20 is worth $162,000~ > > Do you really think you will motivate someone to give them up by charging 0.1 EUR per address? > > That's just a fantasy. > > > > On 4/10/24 8:34 AM, Mihail Fedorov wrote: > > Hello. > > > > Because it solves both purposes > > > > - some small motivation for unused “hoarded” IP address space to be distributed back to those who suffer from total lack of them - at least a little bit will go back to market. There are still really A LOT of entities who hoard them not for the purpose of need (now or in future, commercial or not), but ONLY because some time ago v4 distribution was not managed properly. This, per my opinion, should be somehow resolved. > > > > - small LIR’s without large clients or subnets should not fund RIPE expensive projects on equal basis with transcontinental corporations. Latter will easily agree on 100x price increase just to knock off anyone else - still not even notice this fee. But existing fee and its increase is more than significant for smaller networks or someone trying to enter market. > > > > What I see in proposed schemes is total lack of choice. Let’s not pretend that increase to 1800, increase 1850 or increase to 1900 is actually a choice. It is not! And what I see in this mailing list is that almost everyone agree with this fact. > > > > My initial proposal remains the same: 0.1 EUR (adjusted to real RIPE financial needs) per v4 address in use. Absolutely flat and fair. It will be eventually distributed up to the IP end user by supply chain and be totally unnoticeable for them. > > > > At least there should be couple of more options in vote if community opinion really counted. Otherwise vote is nonsense, why it is needed at all? > > > > > > > > On 10 Apr 2024, at 16:09, Евгений Удовихин <mailto:eudovihin@gmail.com> <eudovihin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > At least because large IP holders now have no motivation to release them. The dependence of the contribution on the number of addresses used will give an additional incentive not to keep unnecessary address space. > > > > Ср, 10 апр. 2024 г. в 22:59, Michel Lanners <michel.lanners(a)lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> >: > > Dear all, > > > > Why on earth is everybody trying to monetize IPv4, i.e. make RIPE fees dependant on IPv4 ressources? > > > > I completely fail to see why anybody should pay more for HOLDING any number of IPv4 ressources (or other ressources, by the way). > > > > It’s a different story for ressource transfers. So let those selling IPv4 pay a fee for the transfer! > > > > And for the rest let’s stick to a real membership fee: one price irrespective of which services you use or not. The fitness center doesn’t charge you per minute, nor per device you use. It's a flat membership, full stop. Hopefully low enough so it doesn’t create a problem for anybody's bottom line. > > > > Cheers > > > > Michel LANNERS > > CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E. > > -- > > <https://www.luxchat.lu/> > > Mail: michel.lanners(a)lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners@lu-cix.lu> > > Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu <http://01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu/> > > Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81 > > > > LU-CIX Management G.I.E. > > 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/202,+Z.A.E.+Wolser+F?entry=gmail&source=g> > > L-3290 Bettembourg > > lu-cix.lu <https://www.lu-cix.lu/> > > luxchat.lu <https://www.luxchat.lu/> > > luxembourg-internet-days.com <https://luxembourg-internet-days.com/> > > lunog.lu <https://www.lunog.lu/> > > > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/eudovihin%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> members-discuss(a)ripe.net > <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss> > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: > <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/mihail%40fedorov.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/mihail%40fedorov.net > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/daniel%40privatesyst… > > > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.

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Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: Recording and Slides Available
by Hank Nussbacher 04 Apr '24

04 Apr '24

On 29/03/2024 14:49, Gert Doering wrote: IUCC was the first paying member to RIPE NCC in 1995 (since we realized the importance of supporting such a fledgling organization) and we have paid for our resources for the past 29 years. See attached (page 3 of 4 pages - if anyone wants to see the full 4 page document - drop me an email off-list). Regards, Hank > >> Hi, >> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 07:04:30PM +0100, Andrea Borghi wrote: >>> My humble proposal is to class basing on how many additional >>> resources a >>> company have beyond the basics that was valid at the time of joining >>> Ripe. >> >> ... and possibly how old these resources are... we got our blocks in >> 1995/1996, and they are considered "large" by today's standards. Back >> then, it was what you got as a fast-growing small ISP... >> >> So if we really go for something based on allocation size, adding a >> yearly depreciation factor in would make this "more fair" (... we've >> been paying our share for the last 29(!) years already). >> >> Gert Doering >> -- NetMaster >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/hank%40interall.co.il

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Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: Recording and Slides Available
by ivaylo 02 Apr '24

02 Apr '24

1 LIR = 1 Vote If you want 2 Votes, always can register other company as LIR. And you again will pay 1500 euro and have same resource limits (before next step up = +1500): 1 x /20 IPV4 block 1 x /29 IPV6 block 8 ASNs If we have more than 1 Vote for a LIR, based on the fee (fee: 4500, have 3 Votes), that will lead to monopol, mastodont companies will do what they want will vote and accept decisions only for their interests. And I can not call it democracy nor fair for all. Ivaylo Josifov VarnaIX / Varteh LTD +359 52 969393 Varna, Bulgaria On Fri, 29 Mar 2024, Evgeniy Brodskiy wrote: > Confidential/????????????? > > Hi Ivaylo, just to clarify, if some LIR pay for 2 chank of resource does it mean it has 2 votes ?? > If contribution is not equal why votes should be equal ?? > > ----------------- > Best regards, > > Evgeniy Brodskiy > Kyivstar | Network engineer > Kyiv, Ukraine > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of ivaylo > Sent: Friday, March 29, 2024 4:54 PM > To: members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: Recording and Slides Available > > [????? ?????????? ????? ???????????? ??????? ????????? ?????????? ????? ??? ivaylo(a)bglans.net. ??????????, ???? ?? ???????: https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ] > > Every Year we talking same things and every year the result is zero... > > Clearly it is not fair company which holds /22 IPV4 /32 IPV6 and few ASN to pay same amount as a company with /8 IPV4 /20 IPV6 and tens (if not > hundreds) ASNs. > > Clearly charging scheme based on the holded resource not accepting. Well then why not we think about hard coded resource limits for each member: > > Annual fee of 1500 Euro per LIR gives : > 1 x /20 Block of IPV4 (sum can be 16 x /24 or 4 x /22) > 1 x /29 Block of IPV6 (sum can be 8 x /32...) > 8 x ASNs > > If a LIR pass one or more of the above parameters the applied Annual fee > +1500 Euro, so such LIR can hold and manage: > > 2 x /20 Block of IPV4 (sum) > 2 x /29 Block of IPV6 (sum) > 16 x ASN > > If again pass one or more of these +1500 Euro and so on. > > > RIPE to send emails to each member with calculation for its next year fee, and with ask to free resources and return back to RIPE. Newly freed resources to be spread across members who not reach the first target (or at least to can ask for new resources without additional fee): > > 1 x /20 Block of IPV4 (sum can be 16 x /24 or 4 x /22 e.t.c.) > 1 x /29 Block of IPV6 (sum can be 8 x /32... e.t.c) > 8 x ASNs > > To legacy resource holders to be given 1 year, to find sponsoring LIR, and their resources to be counted in the LIR account sum resources. Or to be asked to become LIRs, with 500 euro one pay joining fee. > > > > This way RIPE can predict and calculate its bugdet much better. > > > > Ivaylo Josifov > VarnaIX / Varteh LTD > +359 52 969393 > Varna, Bulgaria > > > On Fri, 29 Mar 2024, Firma KOMPEX wrote: > >> Hi >> >> it would be fair if the resource was not valued as a resource only as >> the number of IPs IP should be the basis for settlement - it is >> actually a cost there is a shortage of addresses, and some people have >> a lot of them unused and do not return them. >> If they paid for the addresses and it was a cost for them, they would >> wonder whether they really need them or whether it would be better to >> return some of them. >> >> Pozdrawiam >> Gabriel Sulka >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> Firma Handlowo - Us?ugowa KOMPEX >> 34-400 Nowy Targ ul. Szaflarska 62A >> tel(18) 264-60-55 pn-pt 09:30 - 17:00 sb. 09:30 - 13:00 >> http://www.k/ >> ompex.pl%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7C9925aa0ba >> c9844e2301e08dc500035da%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C6 >> 38473209301289732%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoi >> V2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vRog6oP4 >> cUl4jHHJwJtNmslrzbOIHlONn0zSTZyVOW8%3D&reserved=0 ; bok(a)kompex.pl ; >> kompex(a)nowytarg.net >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of >> Gert Doering >> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2024 12:49 PM >> To: domain(a)wkey.it >> Cc: members-discuss(a)ripe.net >> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: >> Recording and Slides Available >> >> Hi, >> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 07:04:30PM +0100, Andrea Borghi wrote: >>> My humble proposal is to class basing on how many additional >>> resources a company have beyond the basics that was valid at the time >>> of joining >> Ripe. >> >> ... and possibly how old these resources are... we got our blocks in >> 1995/1996, and they are considered "large" by today's standards. Back >> then, it was what you got as a fast-growing small ISP... >> >> So if we really go for something based on allocation size, adding a >> yearly depreciation factor in would make this "more fair" (... we've >> been paying our share for the last 29(!) years already). >> >> Gert Doering >> -- NetMaster >> -- >> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? >> >> SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael >> Emmer, >> Ingo Lalla, Karin Schuler >> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann >> D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) >> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net >> https://list/ >> s.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss&data=05%7C02%7CEvgen >> iy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7C9925aa0bac9844e2301e08dc500035da%7Cf8f9bd >> 573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638473209301298466%7CUnknown%7CTW >> FpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6 >> Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zGN5MtVkwMRKjIKh8U8zUxrmFFkQrZJ4eiuEv%2B >> RKwu8%3D&reserved=0 >> Unsubscribe: >> https://list/ >> s.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Fivaylo%2540bglans.n >> et&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net%7C9925aa0bac9844e230 >> 1e08dc500035da%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C6384732093 >> 01303571%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiL >> CJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=p4kryouKS1u%2F%2F >> mNi3sDc3friXMlh5MIiUrR8nVxR5m0%3D&reserved=0 >> > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/registry%40kyivstar.… >

12 14

RIPE NCC Quarterly Planning Q2 2024
by Adonis Stergiopoulos 02 Apr '24

02 Apr '24

Dear colleagues, We have now published the Q2 2024 quarterly plans for our development teams: https://www.ripe.net/support/documentation/quarterly-planning <https://www.ripe.net/support/documentation/quarterly-planning> Our plans include the work that will be carried out in the next few months and give you the opportunity to comment on those plans and suggest items that the RIPE NCC should be working on going forward. The plans cover the following areas: - Learning & Development - RIPE Database - Business Applications, including the LIR Portal, Registry Services and other applications. - DNS and K-root - RIPE Atlas - RIPEstat - Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI) - Routing Information Service (RIS) - Information Security, Risk, and Compliance We have also made some changes to our reporting process. First, following our website refresh, we made it easier to identify the completed work items of previous quarters. You can check this by clicking on the ‘Archived Plans’ sub-page for each area. Second, we have decided to discontinue reporting on our ‘Information Technology (IT)’ area as we could only provide limited details, and the information was mostly relevant to internal teams. The previous IT plans will remain active on our website until they expire as part of our archiving process. If you have any questions or any input on these plans, please reach out to us. Kind regards, Adonis Stergiopoulos Senior Marketing & Communications Officer RIPE NCC

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Questions about the published Draft Agenda and Supporting Documents
by Erik Bais 30 Mar '24

30 Mar '24

Dear Hans Petter, Thank you for providing the supporting documents for the GM in Rome. Before we are going to be in Rome, I have a question for you and I cc:'ed the member-discuss ML, as I'm sure some other members might also have a couple questions on the following topic. I would like to ask you, how the RIPE NCC thought it was a great slide to present just a 2Milj Euro budget cut .. as if it was the best it could do .. given that it was stated on the last GM .. that it wasn't going to increase the budget .. And with the inflation, basically what that means .. you need to cut cost and cut hard ... So I would assume that the Director of the NCC .. would see this as an opportunity ... and discuss with management and staff, what is excessive .. and where can we 'kill our darlings' ... As for any writer that needs to do proper editing of a long novel .. I get the feeling that you didn't went/wanted to go through that process .. not as fierce as that the membership have suggested you to do .. And I would suggest that this budget document, need some serious editing ... One of the reasons for my disbelieve that you did that process already properly .. is that if I see an IT spend of 7.6 milj. Euro (2023 ) and you proudly present that the IT spend for 2024 is going to be 7.4 milj Euro .. Either you have a HUGE technical debt that you can't manage .. or you didn't went head to head with your CTO / IT Director ... and stopped asking for more cuts until he actually sad in your office crying in despair. Just an example ... If I'm correct, the RIPE NCC is currently in a datacenter facility in Amsterdam .. with roughly 80 cabinets filled with $random equipment, almost half of that (most likely as my gut feeling is ) to store and hold every single ICMP ping/trace life on disk etc.. since the conception of the Atlas project.. And the best you can come back to the community is .. we've managed to reduce the cost of Atlas with 50.000 euro p/yr ? The proper question to ask is, do we need every freaking completed test to store that into infinity on spinning disks .. because we never asked the community if we can just through away every PING test result after 60 days . and save 20 cabinets in storage, equipment and power usage. Who are you kidding ... And that colocation / hw cost is next to the already half milj. Euro charge for the public cloud (AWS) already (per year..) So I seriously wonder if you asked the right questions instead of just tried to maintain the status quo ... One of those 'services' that I seriously think that the NCC should step away from .. is providing 'secondary' DNS server for reverse dns .. I mean .. come on .. how hard is that for the community to manage that by themselves .. and just because the NCC did that since the conception of the NCC ( or at least longer than I can remember ) .. is that still something that people use and expect the NCC to provide ? It might be good suggestion to setup an impartial task force / audit team.. reporting to the Executive Board (EB) .. that does (IT) spending audits .. looking for projects that are WAY over budgets, technical debt, overspending due to historic reasoning etc.. These should be externals to the RIPE NCC (staff), but with lots of different views and know how to spot a pet project when they see one .Or project, because we always did it that way. And then report to the EB with suggestions on how to act on it. I think it is then up to the EB, to discuss those findings internally and decide to have the discussion with the RIPE NCC Management on how to change and reduce the technical debt and how to actual cut cost. I have a gut feeling that the EB isn't getting all the information during the EB meetings or during the follow up's or it takes AGES to obtain the information or it is based on consolidated info, with 3 layers of management cutting and rewriting in between. The "Kill Your Darlings Audit Team" ( KYDAT ), should be the fresh look, to see if the NCC is still doing the right things .. and if the RIPE NCC management is managing towards a more agile and leaner future. This doesn't mean .. let's host everything at the public cloud and see how long the credit card keeps clearing .. it means that common sense with eye's from the outside of the RIPE NCC, might help to provide a better insight. The benefit of KYDAT is that they aren't 'burdened' with employee politics or with smoke and mirrors of certain management that is withholding / stalling documents of how bad it really is .. they will look for themselves .. and report and suggest. I don't envy the role that you have been tasked with ... But I was expecting something more serious .. Regards, Erik Bais

16 32

Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: Recording and Slides Available
by Andrea Borghi 29 Mar '24

29 Mar '24

On Thursday 28 March 2024 18:17:47 Sebastien Brossier wrote: > On 28/03/2024 16:53, sdy(a)a-n-t.ru wrote: [..] > You're right, small and big can mean different things and there are > various financial realities. > > But the only practical metric for RIPE NCC is the number of IP > addresses. From there we can only assume that LIRs with lots of IP > addresses have enough money for a higher membership fee, and that LIRs > with very limited finances just have their initial allocation. > Far from perfect, but it is difficult to do better. [..] Please keep in mind that we moved from an allocation of an intangible technical resource (IPv4 addresses) to a scarcity of that while permitting the sale of that resource between parties, thus creating a market that assigned a value to that resource and consequentially has created an asset value that the companies have (should have?) put in the balance sheet. With this view is not so immediate to force the small companies (the not so small ones doesn't have this problem) to devalue their company in order to keep the costs low. It is a slippery road and for me was the first obrstacle to the poll and the resolution last year. From a practical stand point i think we can make a more informed calculation based on HOW MANY additional resources a company has requested and was granted beyond their INITIAL allocation ad the last-assignment in case of v4. See to myself, for example, i have a /21 that was the standard allocation at the time of me joining Ripe, and the last v4 allocation we all been offered in the past. Beyond that i will get my standard initial allocation of v6 addresses. Can I considered a big player? by no means. But last year in the proposal I was in the medium category with almost doubling the membership, and if forced to sell the addresses I have free at the moment i will suffer almost an halfing of the assets of my company, so i am not inclined to do that for a miriad of reasons. My humble proposal is to class basing on how many additional resources a company have beyond the basics that was valid at the time of joining Ripe. This manner of thinking, will naturally shift the majority of financial burdens to the very large organizations that, for the fact to be very large, can handle the money BUT with the provision to not alter the governance of Ripe (more money normally makes more power and influence, and we don't want this.) Best Regards, Andrea Borghi --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrea Borghi - W KEY srl - http://www.wkey.it

10 11

RIPE NCC Security Update
by Eleonora Petridou 19 Mar '24

19 Mar '24

Dear colleagues, We would like to share some updates regarding security measures available to RIPE NCC members. We have now introduced a feature that shows LIR administrators whether or not two-factor authentication (2FA) has been enabled by users on their LIR account. This feature allows LIR administrators greater insight into the security measures being implemented within their teams. Please note that only admins have access to this feature. We have also strengthened password requirements and added a reminder to enable 2FA when users log in to their RIPE NCC Access accounts. This is an interim measure until mandatory 2FA is rolled out. Our roadmaps have been updated to expedite the rollout of mandatory two-factor authentication: https://www.ripe.net/support/documentation/quarterly-planning/business-appl… The rollout is currently planned to take place towards the end of Q1 2024. Additionally, we have increased our efforts to actively identify leaked credentials available online and to reset those passwords. The password reset process for any credentials identified as leaked through our monitoring system has been automated. We urge all members to be mindful of their password security and to enable two-factor authentication. Please follow our security recommendations: - Review your LIR account(s), restrict access to necessary personnel only and remove former employee accounts. - Make use of our new feature and ensure that all users on your account enable two-factor authentication. - If you use a password management tool, we recommend that you enable data breach monitoring for your own credentials. Kind regards, Eleonora Petridou Chief Information Security Officer RIPE NCC

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