January 2019 - members-discuss

Re: [members-discuss] New Charging Scheme
by ivaylo 18 Jan '19

18 Jan '19

Hello, Jonas Thank you for the numbers ! In my previous mail told, that these are examples only and pointed exact to this so now it is clear if the charging scheme is on net basis: 26000000 (targeting budget) / 3108576 = 8.37 EUROs for /24 per year ! Even if we put targeting budget x 2 it is very resonable fee for one /24 net. Also permanent LIR to LIR resources transfers must be disabled. Then what we will have: (again example numbers) registration fee: 2000 EURO Anual membership fee: 350 EURO (receive one /24 for free) For every next /24 dedicated + 10 EURO All LIR to LIR permanent transfers - disabled (If you need resources ask RIPE, if you dont need return to RIPE) Off course bigger operators that need large resources will pay more than now, but it is absolutely normal, they have larger bussiness with a lot more revenue, It is not fair to put on same basis small telecom with 2k-3k clients and operator with 20m - 30m clients. Ivaylo Josifov Varteh LTD Varna Bulgaria On Thu, 17 Jan 2019, Jonas Frey wrote: > Hello, > > sorry but that type of billing is totally nonsense. You obvisously > never calculated this with real data. Let me do it for you: > > According to > ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/stats/delegated-ripencc-extended-latest > RIPE currently assigned 817101048 IP addresses for real-use (excluding > reserved and free etc.). > That equals to roughly 3191800 /24's. There are currently 20806 LIR's ( > https://labs.ripe.net/statistics/number-of-lirs), if each one is > getting a /22 free, that means we have to deduct 83224 /24's from above > figure. That makes it 3108576 /24's which should be billed (according > to you). > 3108576*350 = 1.088.001.600,00 Euros. Yes, thats 1 billion euros. > RIPE's budget for 2018 was (projected) to be 26 million euros: > https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-693 > > As you can see this is utterly nonsense. As you might know, any surplus > the RIPE NCC generates (at the end of the fiscal year) will be re- > distributed to the members as RIPE is a association and not a company > in regular terms. > > Or are you trying to actually get paid from RIPE for using little count > of IPv4 addresses? > > Anything that is money related will *not* help to get IPv4 back or > solve this with the current form of membership and RIPE. There are > plenty of other ways (some of which have been proposed here) that are a > much better idea (migrating to IPv6 being the ultimate one). > > -J > > > > Am Mittwoch, den 16.01.2019, 17:22 +0200 schrieb ivaylo: >> Hello, >> >> I 100% agree with you ! >> >> As many resources one LIR consumes as bigger membership fee should >> be. >> >> Even to better optimize resources usage, the fee can be calculated on >> /24 >> basis. >> >> example: >> /17 = 128 x /24 >> fee = (128-4)*350 = 43 400 euro/year fee >> >> >> >> P.S. in your example should be: (32-1)*1400 = 39 200 euro. >> >> Ivaylo Josifov >> Varteh LTD >> Varna Bulgaria >> >> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019, TrustHost wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi. >>> >>> I think it would be great if the payment depends on the quantity >>> the >>> resources for one account. It would help to return unused IPv4 in >>> free pool >>> for new business. The companies, who really use big networks won't >>> notice >>> such changes. But who received the resources before 2012 and has >>> unused /19 >>> and maybe more will think if they really need such big blocks. >>> >>> For example we can implement the next charging scheme. >>> If one account has more than /20 (not equivalent 4x/22 or the >>> blocks were >>> allocated before 2012) the next /22 ownership will cost some price >>> (e.g. >>> 1400 euro). >>> >>> For example: >>> There is /17 IPv4 block for one LIR account. >>> /17 = 32x/22. >>> The total price for this account is (32-4)*1400 = 39 200 euro. >>> >>> I think the members must have equal rights, regardless of the year >>> of the >>> membership started. >>> >>> ------------------ >>> Kind regards, >>> Boris Loginov >>> >>> TrustHost LLC >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/r >> ipe%40probe-networks.de

11 20

Re: [members-discuss] New Charging Scheme
by ripe-lr＠cidr.eu 17 Jan '19

17 Jan '19

3 2

Billing Changes in 2019
by Christian Kaufmann 17 Jan '19

17 Jan '19

(Now with webstream link included). Dear members, The board has been following this discussion with great interest and I think now is the right time to comment. Over the past two years, your feedback has been that the RIPE NCC should be looking to increase efficiency and that processes should be automated and optimised as much as possible. We heard you and we acted on this. In 2017, the organisation received 11,000 billing tickets for around 17,000 members. Any company that has to answer more than one billing query for every two of its customers should be taking a hard look at its processes. One of our initiatives was to look at what creates the most work, and this is tickets processed by the RIPE NCC. Quarterly billing is a massive source of additional work in this respect and we decided to simplify this process by moving to a single annual payment (which is how the bulk of the membership currently pays its fees). This was presented on a few months ago at the last General Meeting (webstream link at the bottom of this email): https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2018/ripe-ncc… While under no obligation to do so, the RIPE NCC has offered quarterly payments to its members for a long time. This dates back to when the membership fee for a small LIR was almost double what it is today. Continuing to offer this service has become less practical as the membership has grown. It is not the sending and processing of invoices that is the issue - this is about as automated as it can be. The problem is the amount of reminders, queries and other communication that comes with each billing cycle. This is getting worse as the membership grows, especially with the opening of multiple LIRs. Recognising that this that might cause inconvenience for some members, we instructed the RIPE NCC to offer an individual payment plan on request. The RIPE NCC will soon provide more details on how it intends to manage this transition for members that require support. If you will be negatively impacted, please contact the RIPE NCC via this option. Not only will it mean they can help you individually, but it will also let us see how many members will be affected. This mailing list is not always a representative sample. The RIPE NCC is here to support you and your business. If the new rule creates more harm than benefits for the membership, then we can always revisit our approach. Best regards Christian Kaufmann Chairman of the Executive Board GM webstream (financial update starts at 21:50): https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2018/webstream

1 0

Billing Changes in 2019
by Christian Kaufmann 17 Jan '19

17 Jan '19

Dear members, The board has been following this discussion with great interest and I think now is the right time to comment. Over the past two years, your feedback has been that the RIPE NCC should be looking to increase efficiency and that processes should be automated and optimised as much as possible. We heard you and we acted on this. In 2017, the organistaion received 11,000 billing tickets for around 17,000 members. Any company that has to answer more than one billing query for every two of its customers should be taking a hard look at its processes. One of our initiatives was to look at what creates the most work, and this is tickets processed by the RIPE NCC. Quarterly billing is a massive source of additional work in this respect and we decided to simplify this process by moving to a single annual payment (which is how the bulk of the membership currently pays its fees). This was presented on a few months ago at the last General Meeting (webstream link at the bottom of this email): https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2018/ripe-ncc… While under no obligation to do so, the RIPE NCC has offered quarterly payments to its members for a long time. This dates back to when the membership fee for a small LIR was almost double what it is today. Continuing to offer this service has become less practical as the membership has grown. It is not the sending and processing of invoices that is the issue - this is about as automated as it can be. The problem is the amount of reminders, queries and other communication that comes with each billing cycle. This is getting worse as the membership grows, especially with the opening of multiple LIRs. Recognising that this that might cause inconvenience for some members, we instructed the RIPE NCC to offer an individual payment plan on request. The RIPE NCC will soon provide more details on how it intends to manage this transition for members that require support. If you will be negatively impacted, please contact the RIPE NCC via this option. Not only will it mean they can help you individually, but it will also let us see how many members will be affected. This mailing list is not always a representative sample. The RIPE NCC is here to support you and your business. If the new rule creates more harm than benefits for the membership, then we can always revisit our approach. Best regards Christian Kaufmann Chairman of the Executive Board

1 0

Re: [members-discuss] New Charging Scheme
by ripe-lr＠cidr.eu 17 Jan '19

17 Jan '19

2 1

Re: [members-discuss] Billing scheme
by Terrence Koeman 16 Jan '19

16 Jan '19

Allowing quarterly payments on a yearly fee in the past definitely *was* an "indulgency". It's nowhere in the billing schedule. It was a "gift" , because at the start of the year you owe RIPE the complete annual fee to get membership for a year. If they let you pay in quarterly terms and you pay 1/4th of the fee at the start of the year, you still get membership for a *year* (and NOT membership for only the 1st quarter). Therefore they are essentially loaning you (extending credit for) the other 3/4ths: 1/4th for 3 months, 1/4th for 6 months and the last 1/4th for 9 months. They charge 0% interest, while at 6% yearly interest (about market rate) this would normally cost (5.25 2nd + 10.50 3rd + 15.75 4th) = €31.50. And that's not even including compound interest or inflation. The last 1/4th they get is worth less than the first 1/4th due to inflation, so offering quarterly payments was not free for RIPE; they were losing money on it. So, in fact this service RIPE offered was paid for by *all* members, not just the members paying quarterly. This change also rules out the liability to RIPE of members that pay in terms and then go bankrupt during the year, leaving RIPE out the rest of the terms. Or otherwise don't pay, causing RIPE to have to pay for, or spend time on, collection. Since RIPE only gets money from membership fees, in the end will be the members that will have to pay for everything that costs RIPE money. Depending on the number of LIRs, due to this change, the annual membership fee will probably go down for all of us, or we will get (more) back at the end of the year. Why am I against quarterly payments? Obviously the subsidizing explained above, but more importantly: like you, many others don't seem to get that RIPE membership is *not* a pay-as-you-need subscription. It's a *yearly* membership fee. You owe the full year up front and then you get membership for a full year. This is completely separate from how many terms they let you pay the fee in. While you (and others) seem to think that the membership fee is like a phone subscription, in fact its more like buying a singular thing like a car. Some dealers also offer car sales where you can pay in terms or the second half of the purchase price after 2 years (or something like that) with 0% interest. But this is not free for them, it's essentially a *discount* they're providing you (as you'd have to pay a bank interest if you had to loan the money for those terms or 2 years somewhere else, you save money, while the car dealer incurs a loss due to inflation). You get to take the car home immediately and start using it, but that doesn't mean the car purchase has now turned into a pay-as-you-need subscription. Its the same w/ the RIPE membership: you pay for a singular thing; *one* service. That one single service is *one* year of RIPE membership, and you get to, and can, use it immediately. The constant confusion about the difference and resulting complaints and accusations on this list are a nuisance and we can do without them. Clearly the option for payment in terms for a singular annual fee is too complex for some, especially for some with more than one LIR. I'm sure RIPE has had to waste a lot of time explaining this over and over and over, as people have on this list as well. So, they removed the complexity so it saves RIPE and us on the list time, nuisance & money. IMO RIPE shouldn't have acted like a bank in the first place. I hope this explains it :) -- Regards, Terrence Koeman, PhD/MTh/BPsy Darkness Reigns (Holding) B.V. Please quote relevant replies. Spelling errors courtesy of my 'smart'phone. ________________________________ From: Larisa Yurkina <ula(a)ripn.net> Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2019 12:38 To: members-discuss(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Billing scheme Terrence Koeman пишет 08.01.2019 21:49: Hi, >>> In fact, it's made clear that the fees are an "annual payment" >> No, it's a fee every member pays per year. Show me where it's stated >> that we have to pay that in just one part. > Right here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/payment/ripe-ncc-billing-pr… > > That agrees with the charging scheme, which says "[..] for 2019, the annual service fee per LIR account will remain at EUR 1,400". That's fully consistent with the billing procedure. > > It doesn't say there will be a quarterly fee of EUR 350, the fact that quarterly terms were possible in the past was a courtesy. So, *you* show *me* where it says they can't stop extending this courtesy that was never voted upon. I don't think that words like 'gift' and 'courtesy' are really siutable here. As a memeber i pay on time for services i get and do not need any indulgencies at all. I prefer quarterly payments, why not? They are more convenient to me. You prefer yearly, - fine, i whish you good luck and much success. But, how do my quarterly payments affect your yearly, I can't understand. Why you are against them? And some more. Why the Executive Board memebers or the RIPE NCC staff still keep silence inspite of this many-days discussion? If some of them could explain the reason of chanding the billing scheme i'd be grateful. Perhaps the reason is really very serious. Thank you. > >> In my employment contract they write XXXXX CHF "per year", but I get it >> paid out in 12 parts too.... > Then either your employer is free to change your salary to a quarterly or yearly payment whenever they feel like it too, or, what I'm guessing is more likely: Swiss law dictates that the payment of salaries is per month (for tax purposes or whatever) and so it's not necessary to specify it in your contract. Alternatively, some union contract or something similar arranges this and your employment contract incorporates it by reference. > > Whatever the case may be in Switzerland, in The Netherlands an employment contract will state that it's paid in 12 or 13 terms plus the day of the month it will be paid on (in addition to the yearly amount). > > Ask the HR department tomorrow if you can be paid per week instead and they'll explain to you where it's written that it has to be paid per month and not otherwise, because it's sure to be written somewhere. This also states quite matter-of-factly "Salaries in Switzerland are paid once a month": https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/salaries/29235700 > > And, even if it isn't defined anywhere, the RIPE billing procedure is not your Swiss employment contract. So what's your point exactly? You feel RIPE should be bound to whatever law, rule, regulation or convention causes your salary to be paid per month? -.- > >>> Apparently, RIPE offers "payment options for members with cash flow >> limitations", so it seems that RIPE is willing to work with members for >> which this change is a problem. These members should contact RIPE directly >> to see what "payment options" are available to them >> >> It's a "transition plan" - that means, it's probably just for this year: > Yes, obviously the plan is to: > > a). require all new members to pay yearly, > b). require members opening additional LIRs to pay yearly, > so that: > c). all members pay yearly as soon as possible. > > Of course existing members can be surprised by the sudden change this year and may not be able to pay yearly immediately, hence a "transition" for them. But, next year they won't be surprised and they have a whole year to save & plan for the yearly payment. > >>> For members with only one LIR account, we will design a transition plan >>> for those with cash flow limitations and who therefore have difficulty >>> meeting the payment schedule. We will provide details about this in >>> January 2019. >> I expect the RIPE NCC to inform its members about their transition plans. > Well, then you're in luck, because they will inform their members in >>> January 2019. > It seems to me that to come to a reasonable transition policy they need insight into what problems members will have, and they're getting this insight now. > >>> ideally *before* complaining on this list. >> Please show me any complaint from my side? Thanks :-) > Well, are you a "member with cash flow limitations"? Because my full sentence addressed this only to "these" members (as a group), of which a few had already complained on this list. Not to you personally, as I had no way of knowing whether you belonged to this group or not. > > But besides that: > > complaint noun > com·plaint | \kəm-ˈplānt \ > 1 : expression of grief, pain, or dissatisfaction > >> Why are we able to vote about every single word which is inserted, >> changed or removed from any random document (document, not policy!), but >> we can't vote about such a big change which affects a lot of members? >> >> In my opinion this change should have been part of the charging scheme >> 2019 voting. > Seems like you're complaining about something to me. Or rather two things ^-^ > >> Also, the notice period (which included public holidays in many >> countries) was, in my opinion, ways too short. > If only there were some period for those that need it... to transition to yearly payments... Oh, right! A transition period of at least a year. Point me to the problem, thanks :-) > -- With respect, *Larisa Yurkina* RosNIIROS Internet Number Resources Group / Chief Manager l.yurkina(a)ripn.net <mailto:l.yurkina@ripn.net> / www.ripn.net <http://www.ripn.net> Т.: +7 495 737-0604 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss(a)ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/terrence%40darkness-…

3 3

M&A procedure and transfers restrictions
by Aleksey Bulgakov 16 Jan '19

16 Jan '19

Hi. According to the sad document https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-709#transfer36 Internet number resources that are subject to transfer restrictions imposed by the RIPE Policy "RIPE Resource Transfer Policies <http://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/transfer-policies>", and that are transferred due to a change in a member's business structure, must either remain registered with the original LIR account or be registered with a new LIR account. The receiving party will be provided with RIPE NCC services for these Internet number resources via either the original LIR account or the new LIR account until the policy restrictions are lifted. We have the next situation: 1. There are 2 legal entities - A and B, their accounts were opened in Summer 2018. 2. The legal entity B joined to the legal entity A. 3. The NCC transformed the account of the entity B to the additional account of the entity A. While the NCC prepared the LIR Account Agreement and sent it by DHL we finalized the procedure in January 2019 only. 4. But the NCC also called it as transfer because of MERGER_OR_ACQUISITION. 5. So we have the transfer restriction period until January 2021 and the NCC can pay bonus (4200 EUR for 3 accounts) for it's executive board, stuffs etc. I thought, because of the account transformation the procedure cannot be called as transfer of resources. Otherwise the NCC should merge accounts without additional account creation if the transfer restrictions aren't applied because of M&A.

6 10

Question regarding Courses
by Marcel Blenkers 11 Jan '19

11 Jan '19

Hello everyone, maybe someone in here is able to help me. We registered for a course in February in Hamburg, received the first mail stating "Please wait for the final confirmation", but since then, nothing happened. You are still able to register for the course in Hamburg in February, but we would love to start Room-Reservation and buy the tickets to get to hamburg, but unfortunatly there is no contact we could ask if we are able to attend this course. Maybe someone here might give me a hint what to do next? Thanks in Advance. Marcel Blenkers

2 2

billing problem on multiple lir accounts.
by Goriweb LLC 09 Jan '19

09 Jan '19

hi we have multiple accounts. one account is going to be closed by december 2018, and we are trying to transfer /22 to another account. ripe says, WE HAVE TO PAY FOR ALL ACCOUNTS FOR 2018 its huge mistake. for example: you have; uk.company 04-04-2016 uk.company1 05-05-2018 uk.company2 06-06-2018 uk.company3 07-07-2018 and you wanted to transfer /22 from uk.company to uk.company3 ripe wants payments for uk.company1 and uk.company2 as well. ticket ids: #138277, #137978 who will help me solve this problem? they allowed us to create multiple accounts to prevent manipulations on votes, then trying to charge more. they are replying tickets 1 day later.

16 17

Re: [members-discuss] Billing scheme
by Tobias Weinfeld 09 Jan '19

09 Jan '19

Dear colleagues, the removement of the ability of a quarterly or half-annually billing scheme is in my opinion a bad move. Unfortunately I have no data prior to 1998, but at least since this year it was already possible for LIRs to choose from a quarterly, half-annually or annually charging scheme. It simplified and still simplifies the process for newcomers to become LIR. Altough the fees were higher than today we break here with a tradition that lasted more than 20 years (!). This change will decrease the amount of reminders, yes, but it also will decrease the amount of newcomers, small companies or even technical interested natural persons which plan to become LIR at RIPE. Furthermore the last subnets of the IPv4 pool, which is already quite scarce, won't go anymore to many newcomers, it will possibly go more to companies which already have enough means to buy IPv4 from the market. Those who have more financial opportunities can easily create multiple LIR accounts because they anyway pay annually as usual, so those who are affected are newcomers and small companies. I am strict against this change. It was an important simplification and I see no real reason for removing it after more than 20 years because in a few years when the pool is exhausted also the aforementioned heavy burden will be extenuated. Especially when it comes to IPv6 the next years it should be easily possible for newcomers to become LIR; because it is and should be a membership and not an investment. I also want to criticize that this was announced on a Friday, three days before Christmas, only about one month (now two months) the invoices for Q1/Y2019 will be sent and after expiration of the termination deadline of 15th December 2018. In my opinion, RIPE NCC is one of the fairest and liberal RIR - but that change isn't fair, it is more than astonishing.

2 1