February 2016 - members-discuss

About "ownership"
by Jérôme Nicolle 26 Feb '16

26 Feb '16

Hi, The current debates made me wonder : how come we've had an inetnum market in place whereas an inetnum cannot have a market value ? It's my understanding that the IP adress space is nothing but numbers and that RIR/LIRs are only responsible for the uniqueness of allocations and assignements, that is, a transfer of liability over a shared and common immaterial resource, between community members. I'm wondering how come we made "Temporary and conditionnal liabality transfer" a synonym of "perpetual and inconditional usufruct transfer". May you please enlight me ? Thanks ! -- Jérôme Nicolle +33 6 19 31 27 14

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Please disable distribution to subscribed MLs
by Jérôme Nicolle 22 Feb '16

22 Feb '16

Hi, Fore every mail posted to members-discuss, I get 3 error messages from 3rd party mailling-list servers, namely : sympa(a)chd.sx do-not-reply(a)tickets.denit.net sympa(a)list2.orange.com Could moderators suspend distribution to addresses within these domains until they clean-up their subscriptions ? Best regards, -- Jérôme Nicolle +33 6 19 31 27 14

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Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
by Jérôme Nicolle 21 Feb '16

21 Feb '16

Hello Claudiu, Le 18/02/2016 21:23, Claudiu Foleanu a écrit : > Everyone will do the math before opening a new lir. So the problem will go away! I can't agree because as explained with the taxi licence analogy, I think we've shot ourselves in the foot by letting a market establish itself in the past years - as taxi licence holders did. It can only lead to ressource pooling and lending by people who will dedicate themselves to preserving assets rather than improving the network (IPv6). We need to think ahead of market tendencies, because restricting the flow of ressources will raise subnet's imaginary value, draining more cash (and power) to the bad guys… Unless RIPE NCC is allowed to enforce strict and regular audits over ressource usage, recover / force transfer of leased ressources and actively fight squatting. Making RPKI (progressively) mandatory for every new - non-transferable - allocations, doing a large-scale sanity check of every past assignements, and refusing IPv4 allocations while no IPv6 is deployed by the solicitator (I mean used, not just announced), will be a good start. RIPE would then be in a position to enforce Best Practices adoption, which would further help the community to run a more stable inter-network. I know how hard could such a policy shift be to accept, but I see it as the only solution to keep the Internet open in the not-so-distant future. ALAS, the legal challenges here are crucial, because RIPE need to take a strong position against the faulty logic leading to accountants and judges value something that is no more than a common agreement over sharing a virtual numeral space. It's even harder with the advent of virtual currencies, where this community's agreement gives value to numbers, where *ours does not*, never did - appart from the mere tolerance of a transfer platform where agreed value is secundary - and never should. Best regards, -- Jérôme Nicolle +33 6 19 31 27 14

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Is mailing list become too small for RIPE?
by Lu Heng 21 Feb '16

21 Feb '16

Hi Guys: With overwhelming mail traffic for past few days, I just realise one thing that I'd like to share with fellow colleagues. Now we have 13,000 members, and keep growing at 2000 member a year, with all those amount of active discussion, maybe maillng is not such a good idea for such big group, maybe Forum(like this one for example http://community.mybb.com/) will do much better in:1. put QnA for new comers, 2. organise discussion better and more readable way.3. let everyone dealing with it while they have time, as i believe Email mostly are more time critical things(at least for me personally, I know I can unscripbe but I do want to follow the discussion but don't want to receive 1000 mail traffic a day from a single list.) Let me know what everybody thinks. -- -- Kind regards. Lu

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Re: [members-discuss] < new LIRs by country > [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
by Matthias Šubik 20 Feb '16

20 Feb '16

> On 19.02.2016, at 14:19, Claudiu Foleanu <claudiu.foleanu(a)tennet.ro> wrote: > > Hi Matthias, > > No, i`m not interested in blaming a country. I already did my research and combined with some other info from this topic you will quickly find that > the low cost of 100 eur for a company in the Uk has already been used. Since 2015 january there is a number of 400 new lir`s added from Uk. > I can provide a list of new equipments (cheap) that are not ipv6 ready. The latest available on the market are Netis routers and equipments witch some of then are not ipv6 ready. And we cannot force the clients to upgrade routers,computers,softwares,phones,sip`s and so on.. > > And btw i don`t think UK is now in a new internet buble or hosting buble or whatever requires ipv4 buble This is an interesting approach: looking on the legal side, separating by country is of course valid. In my first assumption I naïvely thought just look at the plain numbers. But you mention the equipment side: The customer will have to upgrade the router sooner or later, but the regulation should make it about the same time for all of us. so there is not too much negative influence on the market. If some can buy IPs, other can’t, there is a better start with an offset of currency and age of LIR. Therefor we need to tell everybody, that new devices get new, read IPv6-enabled, connections. We can deal with RFC 6598 (CGNAT) for a while, but customer should prefer v6 ready equipment, and we should not wait to actively deliver v6 connectivity. *question to all readers* There are a lot of CGNATed networks, especially with mobile broadband. Hands up who has a public IP on the smart phone, and didn’t ask for it. *thank you* Ask the other LIRs what they see … I can only speak for the market I’m in, and in Austria residential internet products get converted to to CGNAT right now. And the network I’m writing this e-mail from is inside a /13 route (!), but I share this outbound IPv4 with others, and have working v6 connectivity on my desktop. And I’m obviously not in the AS I’m responsible for, as I stated earlier, we are one of the smaller LIRs. We did start with v6, the end was visible when we started buying our equipment. Matthias

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
by Philippe Bonvin 20 Feb '16

20 Feb '16

Dear all, Thanks to the RIPE for asking this question. Yes I think that multiple LIR accounts are a problem. I don’t see any valid reason to this. The role of the RIPE is to ensure an equal distribution of resources and having multiple LIR accounts doesn’t serve this cause. Selling IP addresses should not exist, in fact the name and address of the RIPE is in every whois queries in their address space ! The address space should be treated as a finite resource that nobody own, we merely have the authorization to use a part of it. If one company merge or split to another, they can ask the RIPE to change the ownership of the resources. Also, if one company want to separate their business activities, they can do it with multiple ASN. There is no technical reason to allow multiple LIR per legal entity. I understand that it is easy to create new companies but in my opinion there should be more restrictions than that : 1. To open a new LIR account, the applicant must follow a welcome course given by the RIPE explaining the good practice. (This would be covered by the opening fees). 2. The new LIR should justify their needs : a. Why they need an ASN and the routing policies (like enforced today) b. How they plan to use their address space (IPv4 and IPv6) 3. Then, the RIPE would assign an ASN and a IPv6 space corresponding the needs plus a margin 4. If the LIR wants to have a /22, then they should prove that the IPv6 space is effectively in use (for example a web server or an smtp server) and that their ASN are multi homed. 5. The /22 should not be transferable at all and should be announced by an ASN of the LIR. 6. The contact person and email address cannot be the same for 2 LIR. With these rules, it should be more difficult but not impossible to open a LIR for having more IPv4 addresses. It seems to me that the RIPE has in the past had a similar workload. Then, the RIPE should bill the LIR for the IP space they have, like it was before. The big LIR contribute financially more than the smaller ones, in the same idea that a big company pays more taxes than a smaller one. The RIPE can concede a reduced IP space fee if the LIR can demonstrate an IPv6 address space effectively in use. This check should be done once a year before the billing. That should help older LIR with only IPv4 to have an IPv6 space announced and to encourage the return of unused IPv4. Best regards Philippe >> Dear colleagues, >> >> The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to >> discuss >> the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts. >> >> There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November >> 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR >> accounts, >> each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run >> against >> the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board >> decided to >> temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open >> additional >> LIR accounts. >> >> The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 >> policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has >> allocated >> more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the >> pool. >> >> ACTION REQUIRED: >> The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and >> discuss >> the following points: >> >> 1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a >> problem >> that must be prevented? > Yes, should be prevented. > >> 2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action >> should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention? > Stop allowing opening multiple LIR account for one legal entity. > >> Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this >> article on >> RIPE Labs: >> > https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-li… <https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-li…> >> >> The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members >> Discuss >> mailing list <members-discuss(a)ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>>. >> >> The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next >> Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome >> of >> that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote >> on >> at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Nigel Titley >> RIPE NCC Executive Board > > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ <https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/> > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses.

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Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC, Members and Multiple LIRs
by Sylvain Vallerot 19 Feb '16

19 Feb '16

TL,DR: LIR account control is not related to the last /8 policy which is about allow End Users to get minimal ressources, debate should occur about a policy about the last *assignment* to the new EndUser. Dear all, I'ts been a long time yesterday to read all theses threads about wether or not to continue to allow members to open new LIR accounts. Let 'A' be "wether or not to allow members to open new LIR accounts". We've seen quite quickly that this proposition would be a very poor attemps to avaoid some members to get another /22, disregarding the last /8 policy, since this can be easily achieved another way (creating another company by example). Workarounds exist, some of them quite respectful of the letter of the policy, some but simply cheating and/or providing false information to the Ripe. Facing the poor impact such a measure would have on the real problem that we are strugling with, debates went naturally quite further to try to take other aspects into consideration and try to get a more effective solution thant just A. This has no end, we can't get to a conclusion trying to match A with the last /8 policy because the are not related. Many people here recalled that the last /8 policy spirit (if not the letter) is to allow newcomers to born and get the minimal IPv4 ressource to be able to jumpstart. This is what it is all about. But those newcomers do not have to be LIRs. Thinking that they should is wrong in two ways : forgetting that most companies needing to born outside there are actually EndUsers (yes, our clients quite often), and taking it for granted that a LIR has an ASN, a network, is an IP operateur itself or even an ISP, which is just wrong. But a LIR is *just* an IP distributor benefiting from a special relationship with the Ripe to *serve* its EndUsers. So having a policy like the last /8 read from an ASN or ISP perspective instead of from the EndUser's is quite an abuse of our LIR personality. Now, A is just void, never mind. It has been the occasion for many to contribute and have an oversight of some mechanisms for controlling the distribution of the last /8, and/or ways to cheat. We can use these to think about realistic measures to achieve the real goal. And the real problematic from last /8 policy could be stated like : « how to state distribution rules for the LIRs in order to have them to distribute one and only one /2x per EndUser, and enforce them » /2x to be defined later. Such a statement would help us to have a discussion that has a chance to come to something constructive. This also means a change of paradigms that will quite help : 1. hey LIRs, last IPv4s are not for you. 2. EndUsers back to the center of the Ripe's preocupations 3. limiting a LIR to one or several accounts is void, limiting them to a /22 is void also 4. back to serious and responsible relations between EndUsers and LIRs : EndUsers identities and relations should be seriously documented 5. LIRs back to their distribution role (not consumers), with a clear responsibility about making serious assignments and respect the policy limit per EndUser 6. allocations unlocked but LIR abuse will not be tolerated So, back to a normal working for LIRs that commit to achieve their real function and assume responbility for that. LIRs that mess up their LIR function and their IP operator have already received their last /22. They now for long that IPv4 is not available, and they must move to ipv6 or get IP on the market. LIRs that understand and commit to make a proper distribution to the new EndUsers coming should be able to fullfill their role, under control, but without irrelevant restrictions. Please comment. Best regards, Sylvain -- http://www.opdop.fr - mutualiser et interconnecter en coopérative Opdop - Société Coopérative d'Interêt Collectif sous forme de SARL sur IRC réseau geeknode #opdop - tél: 0950 31 54 74, 06 86 38 38 68

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Re: [members-discuss] < new LIRs by country > [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
by Matthias Šubik 19 Feb '16

19 Feb '16

> On 19.02.2016, at 10:37, Claudiu Foleanu <claudiu.foleanu(a)thorpanel.com> wrote: > ... > I wonder if ripe does not have a report on creation of new lir`s who requested a /22 by country. I think this report will be useful. This would overestimate the role of a country, and ignore the fact that countries differ by size, and differ by LIR per inhabitant already with a heavy contrast. You could say “damn germans / spaniards / whatever”, but is is totally ignoring the size difference. If you would really want that info, just count it, the LIR code is country code based, and the LIR table is downloadable. We had another question on this list “what happens if we need more IPv4 addresses” because of growth. So to realize the size difference, we might need to calculate the growth in internet adoption in the different countries as well. I did not buy no (important) IPv6 incapable equipment for around eight years now. So I doubt there is legitimate growth in v4, except to reuse old equipment (which is just a delay of an investment). And yes, end user prices for v4 might rise as well, this can’t be prevented from now on, maybe just delayed. Matthias

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Re: [members-discuss] Is mailing list become too small for RIPE?
by Lu Heng 19 Feb '16

19 Feb '16

Hi Mathias: Seems few people likes the idea, and consider the outbreak happened few days ago with massive unscripble request, it is obivious that most new member don't even know they ware automatically scribe to this list. NCC please provide an feed-back on the suggestion and maybe, board should discuss it the issue(or it is more of operational matter?) On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Matthias Šubik <matthias.subik(a)ucnd.at> wrote: > >> On 19.02.2016, at 13:35, Lu Heng <h.lu(a)anytimechinese.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Matthias: >> >> A forum supports Email notification and replies(in which most open >> software nowadays do that), if you dislike forum, you can still follow >> the threads interests you the maillisng list way. > > QED … but we can leave it like that, > we agree to disagree. That’s fine for me. >> >> And for member like me like more passive experience of engagement, >> probably forum the way it is, will do better. > > I agree, but for the point, this doesn’t serve the purpose the list was created for. This is a new idea. > > This e-Mail is not copied to the list, as it probably is a notion of personal preference. Nobody cared enough to reply on the question “why do we have this *list* anyway” … > > take care > Matthias > -- -- Kind regards. Lu

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Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
by Aleksey Bulgakov 19 Feb '16

19 Feb '16

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Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
by Thomas Mangin 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

As requested … —- Dear Thomas, My name is Claudiu Foleanu from TENNET TELECOM and Interlan Association (We hosted RIPE71 in Romania). I have tried now for a couple of days to post to this topic but for some reason i cannot. I have already mailed ripe-ncc to check this issue. This topic is very important to us and we wish to contribute to it. Can you post this message for me? I have no other solution for this message to reach the members. Thanks so much. Best regards, Claudiu Foleanu ----------------------------------------------- Hi, We in Romania trough Interlan Association are complaining about the issues regarding ipv4 "market" (witch seems to be supported by the community) for over 1 year now. We had a consultant from RIPE in Bucharest and we detailed each and every issue regarding this problem. Ipv4 / Ipv6 was not created for people to make money. It was created to ensure communication between people. Don`t get me wrong, we are not against the market, the unused resources should be redistributed somehow (ripe-ncc,market). But we should take care and ensure that new entities can have IPv4 ip space. RIPE-NCC should request usability reports from every LIR at least once every year. Unused resources should be redistributed. Three times over the last couple of years we have lost ip space witch was rented from other LIR`s. Or had to pay a huge amount of money to transfer them. Three times now we had to renumber and remake the topology of the network in order to support the loss. Why are we not using more IPV6? Facebook is ipv6 akamai,google ok.. Nice. But we have over 10.000 divices routers,switches,etc.. witch do not support ipv6. And we are talking just about customer related devices. Their own home routers,switches,ip phones etc... We should convince China and the manufacturers to build software ipv6 ready! We already tried and it`s not that easy. One manufacturer asked for 200.000 usd in order to redo the software ipv6 ready for some routers. Ask VODAFONE why are they buying ipv4. The answer will be the same. Customers do not have ipv6 ready devices, or they have to many of their own devices ipv6 not ready. You should ask the customers of the LIRS if it was ok to get their ipv4 allocated space taken away by a notification received by email. Big companies should not be allowed to transfer ipv4 to their lir if they do not have at least 30 - 50% implementation on ipv6. We are putting the burden of the costs on the back of start-ups and leaving the big companies to profit on this market. I`m not quite sure what prompted this discussion but i`m glad it`s out! You should look into address space witch left Romania. I can tell you that over 50% at least of that address space was in use. I now get 3 -5 emails each day from small companies in Romania asking for address space. But we have none to give. We have allocated everything in order to try to help! Our solution: You make a new lir to get a /22 ok, then you cannot sell the ip address space. If the lir is for whatever reason closed the ip address space should be requested back. Nobody will create a new lir for a /22 and pay the fees required if the address space given it`s tied to that lir, it will just be to expensive. Best regards, Claudiu Foleanu TENNET TELECOM -----------------------------------------------

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
by marco＠naefmarco.ch 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

Hello RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer listing service. Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 An: Radu Brebu <dial(a)dialcube.ro> Cc: members-discuss(a)ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss Hello, folks! That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years. But actually there really big injustice exists here! I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used. But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market. And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a long time. Than't really weird, isn't it? On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial(a)dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro> > wrote: Hi all, This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about. On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense... On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: Hi, all. I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before 2012, to the NCC pool. -- Kind regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO 7 926 6908729 14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley : Dear colleagues, The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts. There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run against the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open additional LIR accounts. The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool. ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss the following points: 1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented? 2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention? Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on RIPE Labs: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-li… <https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-li…> &pk_kwd=list-ncc The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss mailing list . The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome of that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016. Best regards, Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
by lir＠di-net.ru 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

First of all, I think we all should agree that current debates are all about abusing LIR creation procedure to get extra IPs. Why some percent of members was trying to explain here their reasons why they can't use IPv6. Relatively to the main discussion in short: I believe we can do nothing to prevent different types of abusing for a 'long distance'. They've asked whether the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts is a problem that must be prevented? Sure it is, RIPE can block requests from existing LIRs, or add some extra payments for such procedure. The second option actually is nothing but a small delay to the times until the prices for IPv4 will be higher than LIR charges. As mentioned earlier, if we just block an ability to create LIR for an existing member, it's definitely not a problem to register new companies. It is not even necessary to create a new company, almost everyone can open paint application and create all needed documents. RIPE has no ability to validate somehow whether the documents are juridical correct or not, including merging/sell documents. The principles of honesty, responsibility and reasonableness are fading when money comes to play. IPv4 address space is already monetized and we can't fight with or deny this fact. Besides, I don't agree that any types of audit can help here. This procedure requires huge effort not only from RIPE employees but from LIR engineers too, in large LIRs it may be prolonged for indeterminable time. Estimating effectiveness of every particular LIR address space and attempts to retrieve some IPv4, could lead RIPE to become a regulator not a coordinator. It's a good idea to check ARIN policies applied to their last block, and may be adopt some paragraphs. Some basic principles that are emphasized: - Documentation, network schemes and so on are strongly required for any allocation. In contrast with ARIN, RIPE just give /22 to any new member. - Necessity to provide data demonstrating utilization of this space (immediately and after one year) Summarizing all above, I think RIPE should prevent any IPv4 address allocations (including new LIR members) without complete plans, schemes and demonstrations of necessity and effectiveness. May be RIPE can afford one dedicated engineer being responsible for analyze such plans. Still it must be clear that complete IPv4 exhaustion is just the question of time, no matter how hard RIPE put the screws on allocation procedure. Alex Klimenko Digital Network NOC

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Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
by Александр Клименко 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

First of all, I think we all should agree that current debates are all about abusing LIR creation procedure to get extra IPs. Why some percent of members was trying to explain here their reasons why they can't use IPv6. Relatively to the main discussion in short: I believe we can do nothing to prevent different types of abusing for a 'long distance'. They've asked whether the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts is a problem that must be prevented? Sure it is, RIPE can block requests from existing LIRs, or add some extra payments for such procedure. The second option actually is nothing but a small delay to the times until the prices for IPv4 will be higher than LIR charges. As mentioned earlier, if we just block an ability to create LIR for an existing member, it's definitely not a problem to register new companies. It is not even necessary to create a new company, almost everyone can open paint application and create all needed documents. RIPE has no ability to validate somehow whether the documents are juridical correct or not, including merging/sell documents. The principles of honesty, responsibility and reasonableness are fading when money comes to play. IPv4 address space is already monetized and we can't fight with or deny this fact. Besides, I don't agree that any types of audit can help here. This procedure requires huge effort not only from RIPE employees but from LIR engineers too, in large LIRs it may be prolonged for indeterminable time. Estimating effectiveness of every particular LIR address space and attempts to retrieve some IPv4, could lead RIPE to become a regulator not a coordinator. It's a good idea to check ARIN policies applied to their last block, and may be adopt some paragraphs. Some basic principles that are emphasized: - Documentation, network schemes and so on are strongly required for any allocation. In contrast with ARIN, RIPE just give /22 to any new member. - Necessity to provide data demonstrating utilization of this space (immediately and after one year) Summarizing all above, I think RIPE should prevent any IPv4 address allocations (including new LIR members) without complete plans, schemes and demonstrations of necessity and effectiveness. May be RIPE can afford one dedicated engineer being responsible for analyze such plans. Still it must be clear that complete IPv4 exhaustion is just the question of time, no matter how hard RIPE put the screws on allocation procedure. Alex Klimenko Digital Network

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parrot on the list
by Matthias Šubik 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

Hello, can anybody stop support(a)polycomm.net from resending any e-Mail it receives? It is an annoying parrot. thanks Matthias

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Re: [members-discuss] [Polycomm] (TS-221) [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
by Anthony Somerset 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

to come back to the debate about multiple LIR’s and ip space, let me play devil’s advocate for a second :) why don’t we want to allow final IPv4 space to be consumed as quickly as reasonably possible reserving only some final space as required for critical infrastructure needs? (critical infrastructure might be considered as things like as internet exchange points or verified root DNS servers etc) Yes this would drive up the grey/black market prices and there will be some people that take advantage of this and find creative ways around the various soft landing policies in place globally (this problem isn’t unique to RIPE specifically) for a quick $£ etc however the flip side of this is an enforced shortage of IPv4 because of its consumption will also force people to actually act on getting onto IPv6 properly once and for all. lets not try and prolong the life of a terminally ill patient that is IPv4 - lets give it the IP/Networking equivalent of a Do Not Resuscitate and just let it run out and focus our efforts on building proper IPv6 plans and rolling them out and supporting the IPv6 transition methods like 6to4-PT or similar the increasing price of IPv4 address is really a short to medium term problem because the market would ultimately reach a limit where its much more financially viable to roll out IPv6 network upgrades and infrastructure if not existing already than to purchase grey IP's Anthony Somerset, Technical Director, w: cloudunboxed.net <http://www.cloudunboxed.net/> | e: anthony.somerset(a)cloudunboxed.net <mailto:anthony.somerset@cloudunboxed.net> | t: +44 (0)33 0088 2444 Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressed individual or entity only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then discard this e-mail. Unauthorized copying, sharing and distributing of this e-mail is prohibited. The content in this e-mail does not necessarily represent the views of the company. The addressee should check all attachments for malware; the company makes no representation as regards the absence of malware in attachments to this e-mail. > On 17 Feb,2016, at 16:31, Jivko Jelev <support(a)polycomm.net> wrote: > > Jivko Jelev <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/secure/ViewProfile.jspa?name=j.jelev%40itnsglob…> обновил запрос > > Техническая поддержка <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS> / <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS-221> TS-221 <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS-221> > [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS-221> > I think is more beter this market to be close no reason to sale ip > space. !!! > RIPE Must take back this free ip space and on standat procedure give > space to LIR providers whit clear rule-s .... > For exsample big providers have alot of ip space Class B networks and > they rent and sell this ip space. This bring to them a big profit. If > you are new LIR you have only one option take space from market. no any > option to take makert in country where this LIR have custumers. > We try to use ipv6 .... for exsample no skype no any web site-s in local > peering only one option is NAT for ipv4 .... > On 17-Feb-16 4:18 PM, Matthias Šubik wrote: > >> On 17.02.2016, at 14:55, David Ponzone <david.ponzone(a)ipeva.fr> wrote: > >> > > .. > >> PS: I see there are some ticketing systems registered as members of the ML. I am receiving quite some garbage when I post and it seems some people are getting the mails although they are not even members of the ML. > > I guess RIPE contact leaving the company, and e-Mail address gets assigned to the support queue. > > And the helldesk has to close the tickets, > > does not have the authority / idea to unsubscribe. > > > > Matthias > > ps: If there are company mergers behind that, it isn’t so easy to find out which address needs unsubscribing, if it isn’t mentioned in the footer. > > ---- > > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ <https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/> > > > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > – > Jivko Jelev > General Manager ITNS Global - Bulgaria > T/F +359 2 49 66 555 > US/T +1 4044001713 > M +359 88 5555122,+359 87 8553844 > e-mail: j.jelev(a)itnsglobal.eu > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ <https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/> > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > <Mail Attachment.png> <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS-221#add-comment> Добавить комментарий <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS-221#add-comment> > > Это сообщение автоматически генерируется JIRA. (v6.4.1#64016-sha1:5d75814) > <Mail Attachment.png>

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Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
by Brandon Butterworth 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

> Finding a solution that doesn't mean a huge increase in > administrative work for the NCC or making the request procedure almost > impossible for new LIR's is not a solution. Just make the price higher than the market rate, the speculators will go elsewhere. The new LIR will have to pay market rate for any further space anyway so should plan accordingly I'd rather all this was not needed but if there is a game people will play it. Nobody should be surprised brandon

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Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
by Sylvain Vallerot 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 17/02/2016 16:15, Claudiu Foleanu wrote: > Like i said to the consultant, ripe ncc never notified an end user and told > him that the lir can take the allocated space back. Obviously a very perverse consequence of the abandon of the public ressource to this market. I do not see any other solution for you than to go into justice because of an obviously unfair behavior of your provider. Regarding the Ripe policies, maybe we should try to prevent this by having the previous user of a given range to have some precedence for buying the range, if the LIR is willing to transfer it. And price should be very low compared to the market, otherwise this is door opening to extorsion. This would prevent, if not such speculative misbehaviors, at least disastrous situations for the End Users. Another option would be to apply penalties of some kind when a LIR breaks such a contract (meaning, an IP lease contract, not related to other services). Best regards, S. Vallerot - -- http://www.opdop.fr - mutualiser et interconnecter en coopérative Opdop - Société Coopérative d'Interêt Collectif sous forme de SARL sur IRC réseau geeknode #opdop - tél: 0950 31 54 74, 06 86 38 38 68 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iF4EAREIAAYFAlbFyBcACgkQJBGsD8mtnRGergD9EwZupPTy8xmaKhUXghFDz59g YoFV7p2J6/P1Ds5i4+QA/2+txMjuNnePzyOTjw/X1soteqO75/pkaMPl5kGMC+Lw =RTwZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: [members-discuss] [Polycomm] (TS-223) Re: [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple
by ian smith 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

Hi Sebastian, by definition, "unintended consequences" are also unforeseen consequences, so I cannot give examples for any changes that may be made. However, unintended consequences are unfortunately a very common occurrence when rules are changed. Ian > Message Title > Sebastian Wiesinger > <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/secure/ViewProfile.jspa?name=sebastian.wiesinge…> > *обновил* запрос > > Техническая поддержка <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS> / > Обращение <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS-223> TS-223 > <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS-223> > Re: [members-discuss] [comms] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members > and Multiple <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS-223> > > * Ian Smith <ian(a)lothianbroadband.com> [2016-02-18 13:07]: > > I'm concerned about the direction this discussion is taking because > > it seems to be focusing on the behaviour of a tiny minority of > > members. The majority of us would welcome the ability to obtain > > another /22 or two for legitimate purposes. > > But that is not the intention of the policy. You get one /22 so that > others can get one too. I'm sure everyone would welcome the ability to > get more IPv4 but we're all out. It's over. Move on. > > > Any changes made to combat practices of a tiny minority of members > > may have unintended consequences for many and impact on small LIR's > > like mine. > > Which unintended consequences are there? All consequences that I've > heard about are absolutely intentional. (Do not let people receive > more than one /22). > > Regards > > Sebastian > > – > noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg > Tel +49-911-9352-1335 - Fax +49-911-9352-100 > > http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company > > Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel - > Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > Добавить комментарий > <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS-223#add-comment> Добавить > комментарий <http://www.crm.polycomm.net/browse/TS-223#add-comment> > > Это сообщение автоматически генерируется JIRA. > (v6.4.1#64016-sha1:5d75814) > Atlassian logo >

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
by Gunnar Guðvarðarson 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

1. Yes 2. Make it so that any /22 allocated from "the last /8" is non-transferrible if allocated after a specific date, ever. That way, if a LIR requests a /22 the subnet is bound to that LIR, if the LIR then wants to merge with another company it must return the /22. That way any abuse becomes a very expensive thing to maintain. And of course require a working IPv6 allocation before assigning anything from IPv4. ---- Dear colleagues, The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts. There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run against the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open additional LIR accounts. The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool. ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss the following points: 1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented? 2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention? Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on RIPE Labs: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-li… The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss mailing list . The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome of that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016. Best regards, Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board ~ Gunnar

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audit idea .... improve database quality
by Matthias Šubik 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

Hello, to add to my previous idea, to add the subscribed e-Mail address to the footer, I would suggest all LIRs, which obviously don’t know they are a LIR, and how to unsubscribe to be placed on the audit short list. When I was in an RIPE audit, I was shocked about the basic level of the questions asked, but now I know why. There must be hundreds of LIRs without any(more) personnel with a RIPE course. How can this LIRs deliver up to date WHOIS information, including abuse/cert/irt contact? This is no witch hunt, I can recommend to any LIR personell to take a RIPE NCC training course. This can explain the inner working of the RIPE NCC, the voting process, the database, and exactly why we have this mailing list. Additionally I assume none of this LIRs has any IPv6 plans. They might not even know there is a need for change. As their allocation is working for them (like internal LIRs in large cooperations). all the best Matthias

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
by Riccardo Gori 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

Hi all, Ni Nigel, Sorry for the late reply I tried to post my opinion days ago but there was an issue with subcription on the list. I think 2015-01 did the most. I would tune that with audit and I would forbit transfert of never annouced address space. Short answer for busy or lazy readers ;-) Here you are my opinion: 1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented? Yes. It has been abused in a speculative way. During late 2014 and all 2015 some legal entities used it to obtain address space from /8 and immediately sell it to market. There was a loophole in the policy. This is not more possible thanks to 2015-01 discussed and approved on address-policy-wg. There was a plenty of abusing even before september 2012. Wall of shame is there. No one is shamed though. I want you to notice that if you analyze the ripe allocation list you can find similar behavior happened even before when policies were completely different Single legal entinty with multiple LIR account requested and obtained allocation greater as /18 or /16 for each LIR account they owned. Some of the allocation are still there and it's easy to check with date allocation, some maybe were transferred and are not easy to track. 2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention? We should attempt prevention but it's not easy. But we can consider some options: - Stop allowing opening multiple LIR account for one legal entity. Easy but irrelevant, will reach but it's easy to cheat already said from many of us. - Add more disincentive with a 5 years holing time before for all transfer. Very difficul to reach rough consensus many LIR are holding a lot of unused address space. They will expose their castle to Ipv6 adoption rate... - Returing allocated and unused: Mostly impossible. Anyway I would like to see what would happen to stockpiled IPs if memership fee were IP/monthly based. May result in cheaper transferts, cheaper leases, more LIRs doing their work, more internet. Very interesting. - Audit We had a large surplus in 2015 instead of redestributing it (this made even higher the surplus of speculators) we can consider to use it for audit. In this case we can allow multiple LIR per legal entity beacause it would been ever easier to indentify when the behavior becomes strange. If they have customers they will have assignements, IPs will be in use, IPs will be announced, database is consistent I don't see any abuse here. It something is wrong RIPE will terminate the LIR for violations or other reason as in SSA and resources will be back to the available pool. - Forbit transfert of "never annouced" address space. Maybe difficult to reach consensum but I don't like to see in IPv4 Transfer Listin Service best offers for "never annouced address space". This is sure comes from stockpiling or quick buck speculators. I think 2015-01 did the most. I would tune that with audit and I would forbit transfert of never annouced address space. kind regards Riccardo -- Ing. Riccardo Gori e-mail:rgori@wirem.net WIREM Fiber Revolution Net-IT s.r.l. Via Cesare Montanari, 2 47521 Cesena (FC) Tel +39 0547 1955485 Fax +39 0547 1950285 -------------------------------------------------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you have any questions, please contact us by re- plying toinfo(a)wirem.net Thank you WIREM - Net-IT s.r.l.Via Cesare Montanari, 2 - 47521 Cesena (FC) --------------------------------------------------------------------

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About unsubscribing
by Jérôme Nicolle 18 Feb '16

18 Feb '16

Hi folks, I'm currently going through all the recent posts on this mailing list, that have been moved to a dedicated subfolder on my mailbox thanks to sieve (RFC 5228) rules. We're having a fundamental discussion here. It's all about, as members of a NFP organisation, we're trying to set rules to behave as members of the Internet community. Asking for beeing spared of the current threads is resignating for your LIR status, and memebership frome RIPE NCC. It implies asking for the return of your numbered assignement to the available pool, too. Thanks for that. You can't seriously be an ISP and ask to avoid the current conversation. Either you relenquish every assignement,and your LIR status, or take part in the building process of the next generation of our comminuty's policies. So, once again, please relenquish your assigned IP space or take part in the current process. Or ask to be spared and GTFO. Best regards, -- Jérôme Nicolle +33 6 19 31 27 14

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Moderation Enabled on Members-Discuss
by Serge Radovcic 17 Feb '16

17 Feb '16

Dear colleagues, We’ve noticed that the large amount of emails asking to unsubscribe has been detracting from the discussion on this list. We have therefore turned on moderation and will not be letting through any more emails until tomorrow at the earliest. If you would like to unsubscribe, you can do this through the LIR Portal. Log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on “Edit my LIR details” under “Subscribed Mailing Lists” and from here you can add or remove email addresses. ***It is important to note: any subscription changes made in the LIR Portal may take up to 24 hours to be processed. If you have already updated this information, the change will happen in this timeframe*** If you have any questions, please email <ncc(a)ripe.net>. Once this issue is resolved, we hope we can return to the important member discussion on the multiple LIR issue. We trust that this interruption won’t have too much of an impact on the community’s discussion, as it is not immediately time sensitive. Kind regards Serge Radovcic Chief Communications Officer RIPE NCC

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Please remove me from discussion list
by Thierry Durieux - Neo-One 17 Feb '16

17 Feb '16

Please remove me from discussion list Salutations. -- Thierry Durieux Directeur Technique Téléphone: 05 67 34 67 90 | Support: 09 70 75 37 40 8 chemin de la terrasse - BP 45122, 31512 Toulouse Cedex [cid:image001.png@01CF96D9.2F09BA30]

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