June 2009 - members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010
by Sven Olaf Kamphuis 19 Jun '09

19 Jun '09

> > -this cannot be done, its blackmail!- > > It's the RIPE membership (the LIRs), that change these policies, not the > NCC. The NCC has to action them. > > Has nothing to do with blackmail. At the end of the day, it's a decision > driven by RIPE members, who take an active role. > > Policies change, if you don't like'm you can try to change them again. > Just requires a majority approval for a policy proposal. > hiding behind "democratic internal processes" changes nothing to that fact. if the members of ripe decided ripe was not going to pay taxes this year, im quite sure that the democratic aspect would not warrant it from prosecution :P -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven(a)cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Martin List-Petersen wrote: > Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote: > >> Anyhow, this whole matter was also already raised at the GM. > > > > unfortunately for RIPE those agreements only cover the effort to REGISTER > > the PI space in the first place, no renewal fees were ever mentioned. > > > > -this cannot be done, its blackmail!- > > It's the RIPE membership (the LIRs), that change these policies, not the > NCC. The NCC has to action them. > > Has nothing to do with blackmail. At the end of the day, it's a decision > driven by RIPE members, who take an active role. > > Policies change, if you don't like'm you can try to change them again. > Just requires a majority approval for a policy proposal. > > Kind regards, > Martin List-Petersen > -- > Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair > http://www.airwire.ie > Phone: 091-865 968 > > > > X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net" >

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Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010
by Sven Olaf Kamphuis 19 Jun '09

19 Jun '09

> Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody > else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service > provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting. no, you dont. the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice. if the customer happens to be in lets say russia it doesnt make much sense to have their network announced in amsterdam or germany now does it.. thats the whole point of PI space in the first place, its PROVIDER INDEPENDANT, from day 1. -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven(a)cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Martin List-Petersen wrote: > Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote: > >> The product that the customer buys of the LIR should be giving more than > >> 50 EUR/year revenue, if not, you might not be in business for long. > > > > LIRS are NOT isps! > > > Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody > else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service > provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting. > > > > the "product" bought from a LIR is the registration of IP space, usually > > at at one-time single payment that covered the increase in the billing > > score for 2 years if applicable and the administrative work. > > > > there are no "services" or "products" a LIR normally sells. > > > You have to have a contractual relationship with the enduser that has PI > now. You know that, right ? > > > > and there also is no question of "circumventing ripe membership fees" > > as those only apply to LIRs (that is, people willing to register IP space > > for others). > > Or entities, that don't want to deal with a LIR. > > > > the fact that -most- LIRs are part of an ISP or even some ASPs that fell > > for ripes jedi-mind-trick and became a LIR themselves, doesnt mean they > > HAVE to be part of an ISP. > > There are very few LIRs, that aren't providing some commercial product. > And even then 50 EUR/year is compared to the money they probably pay for > connectivity: > near to nothing. > > Anyhow, this whole matter was also already raised at the GM. > > Kind regards, > Martin List-Petersen > -- > Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair > http://www.airwire.ie > Phone: 091-865 968 > > > > X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net" >

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Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010
by Sven Olaf Kamphuis 19 Jun '09

19 Jun '09

> Anyhow, this whole matter was also already raised at the GM. unfortunately, in the agenda for that specific GM it was presented as if there would be the option for 3rd parties to register PI space directly with RIPE, like it used to be the case with internic in the past. Despite RIPEs newly announced rediculous prices, which come very close to running an actual LIR, compared to ARIN (arin only charges 100 dollars for direct assigned ip space for example) I have no issues with that construct and therefore didnt bother to go and vote against it. it was not mentioned that this would include EXISTING PI space and AS numbers. and yeah sure, we have a contract with our customers, verbal agreements are legally binding, especially if followed by a payment :P (having a payment relation by itself is already legally binding) unfortunately for RIPE those agreements only cover the effort to REGISTER the PI space in the first place, no renewal fees were ever mentioned. -this cannot be done, its blackmail!- now the funny thing is that our customers are already caving in and are willing to sign new contracts BUT they should not. caving in to blackmail is not a very good idea. -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven(a)cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Martin List-Petersen wrote: > Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote: > >> The product that the customer buys of the LIR should be giving more than > >> 50 EUR/year revenue, if not, you might not be in business for long. > > > > LIRS are NOT isps! > > > Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody > else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service > provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting. > > > > the "product" bought from a LIR is the registration of IP space, usually > > at at one-time single payment that covered the increase in the billing > > score for 2 years if applicable and the administrative work. > > > > there are no "services" or "products" a LIR normally sells. > > > You have to have a contractual relationship with the enduser that has PI > now. You know that, right ? > > > > and there also is no question of "circumventing ripe membership fees" > > as those only apply to LIRs (that is, people willing to register IP space > > for others). > > Or entities, that don't want to deal with a LIR. > > > > the fact that -most- LIRs are part of an ISP or even some ASPs that fell > > for ripes jedi-mind-trick and became a LIR themselves, doesnt mean they > > HAVE to be part of an ISP. > > There are very few LIRs, that aren't providing some commercial product. > And even then 50 EUR/year is compared to the money they probably pay for > connectivity: > near to nothing. > > Anyhow, this whole matter was also already raised at the GM. > > Kind regards, > Martin List-Petersen > -- > Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair > http://www.airwire.ie > Phone: 091-865 968 > > > > X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net" >

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Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010
by alopez＠adif.es 18 Jun '09

18 Jun '09

Please remove alopez(a)adif.es From the list. ----- Mensaje original ----- De: Nafis Dwaalster [nafis(a)dwaalster.nl] Enviado: 18/06/2009 18:44 ZE2 Para: members-discuss(a)ripe.net Asunto: Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 Ripe, Please remove nafis(a)dwaalster.nl as well from the list thank you Nafis 2009/6/18 Adapt Service Desk <servicedesk(a)adaptplc.com> > Ripe, > > Please remove us from this discussion thread. It is totally irrelevant to > us and is filling our mailbox with junk. > > You may have the following e-mail addresses on record, > > servicedesk(a)adaptplc.com > support(a)mnet.co.uk > hostmaster(a)adaptplc.com > hostmaster(a)mnet.co.uk > > please remove them all. > > > Regards, > Raj Bola > Service Desk Manager > > adapt > New Broad Street House, 35 New Broad Street, London EC2M 1NH > t: +44 (0)845 304 3046 > e: servicedesk(a)adaptplc.com > > www.adaptplc.com > > adapt, the independent managed services provider offering the broadest > choice of next generation technologies, and doing right by our customers. > > adapt to success! We're ranked 15th in the 2008 Tech Track 100. > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-admin(a)ripe.net [mailto: > members-discuss-admin(a)ripe.net] On Behalf Of ?????? ?????? > Sent: 18 June 2009 12:56 > To: Hostmaster; Natalya Petrova; members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 > > Hi All! > > There's no such document in RIPE database. > But I suppose Natalya is speaking about this: > > "[Apologies for duplicate emails] > > Dear Colleagues, > > The RIPE NCC is currently formulating the Draft Charging Scheme 2010. > The Draft Charging Scheme 2010 will take into account the requirements of > policy proposal 2007-01, "Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users > from the RIPE NCC", and the discussions that took place at the RIPE NCC > General Meeting in May 2009 regarding the 2010 Charging Scheme. > > The main features of the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 will be: > > - As in previous years, there will be five membership categories - Extra > Small, Small, Medium, Large and Extra Large > - The 2010 fee for each membership category will be the same as for 2009 > - An algorithm will determine a score that decides what category a member > belongs to > - The score will be based on Provider Aggregatable (PA) IPv4 and PA IPv6 > allocated over time > - Direct assignments will have a recurring charge per assignment and the > fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment > > The RIPE NCC will publish the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 at the beginning > of July 2009. The RIPE NCC Executive Board will then monitor discussion and > input from the RIPE NCC membership before publishing a final version of the > Draft Charging Scheme 2010 by 9 September 2009. The RIPE NCC membership will > vote on this version at the RIPE NCC General Meeting on 7 October 2009. > > The RIPE NCC notes that this proposal for the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 is > subject to change based on advice from the RIPE NCC's lawyers on tax and > legal issues. > > Membership discussion of the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 proposal can take > place at <members-discuss(a)ripe.net>. > > Best regards, > > Axel Pawlik > Managing Director > RIPE NCC" > > Kind Regards > Sergey Sulava > > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-admin(a)ripe.net [mailto: > members-discuss-admin(a)ripe.net] On Behalf Of Hostmaster > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:22 PM > To: Natalya Petrova; members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 > > Privyet Natalya > > Where is this document? I cant see it on RIPE? > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-admin(a)ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Natalya Petrova > Sent: 18 June 2009 11:29 > To: members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 > > RegID: kz.kazaktelecom > > Good morning, dear colleagues! > Thanks for your message. > I have read on a site the information be relative Charging Scheme > 2010. There are some questions for me. > I ask the help in the explanatory. > Questions: > 1) " - Direct assignments will have a recurring charge per assignment > and the > fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment" - It mentions only PI? or > PA? or PI+PA? > 2) "fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment" - It every month a > payment? or every quarter? or for a year? > 3) "fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment" - It is payment for what > quantity of addresses (50EUR= ? IPs)? > 4) " - Direct assignments will have a recurring charge per assignment > and the > fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment" - Operates for all direct > assignments? or Only new direct assignments (included after 3 May, > 2009)? > I shall be very grateful for explanatories. > Thanks for the help and understanding. > Yours faithfully, > Natalya > > > *Disclaimer:* > This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information > intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If > you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this > message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. > > *Ограничения:* > Данное сообщение (включая любые вложения) может содержать > конфиденциальную информацию и быть предназначенным исключительно > для личности или организации, которой оно адресовано. Если Вы не > являетесь надлежащим адресатом, то настоящим Вы уведомлены, что любое > раскрытие, копирование, распространение или использование содержания > этого сообщения строго запрещено. > > > > This message has been scanned for viruses by Mail Control - > www.adaptplc.com > > -- Met vriendelijke groet / Kind regards, Nafis Dwaalster

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Please STOP to spam to members-discuss@ripe.net
by smarco＠libero.it 18 Jun '09

18 Jun '09

This is an email for all "Ripe Members"... Pleae use "members-discuss@ripe. net" only for important question!!! Thanks for support Best Regards

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AW: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010
by Marcus.Gerdon 18 Jun '09

18 Jun '09

Sorry, but maybe you shouldn't put daily-use business email addresses into mailing-lists? Someone has to have that configured at any point in time. Ever took a look into the LIR portal? Just unsubscribe there (under 'General')... Btw, replying to all including a mailing list like the one you're complaining about is better behaviour? Marcus ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Engineering IP Services Versatel West GmbH Unterste-Wilms-Strasse 29 D-44143 Dortmund Fon: +49-(0)231-399-4486 | Fax: +49-(0)231-399-4491 marcus.gerdon(a)versatel.de | www.versatel.de Sitz der Gesellschaft: Dortmund | Registergericht: Dortmund HRB 21738 Geschäftsführer: Marc Lützenkirchen, Dr. Hai Cheng, Dr. Max Padberg, Peter Schindler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AS8881 / AS8638 / AS13270 | MG3031-RIPE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: members-discuss-admin(a)ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Adapt > Service Desk > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. Juni 2009 14:22 > An: s.sulava(a)unistream.com; Hostmaster; Natalya Petrova; > members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Betreff: RE: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 > > Ripe, > > Please remove us from this discussion thread. It is totally > irrelevant to us and is filling our mailbox with junk. > > You may have the following e-mail addresses on record, > > servicedesk(a)adaptplc.com > support(a)mnet.co.uk > hostmaster(a)adaptplc.com > hostmaster(a)mnet.co.uk > > please remove them all. > > > Regards, > Raj Bola > Service Desk Manager > > adapt > New Broad Street House, 35 New Broad Street, London EC2M 1NH > t: +44 (0)845 304 3046 > e: servicedesk(a)adaptplc.com > > www.adaptplc.com > > adapt, the independent managed services provider offering the > broadest choice of next generation technologies, and doing > right by our customers. > > adapt to success! We're ranked 15th in the 2008 Tech Track 100. > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-admin(a)ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of ?????? ?????? > Sent: 18 June 2009 12:56 > To: Hostmaster; Natalya Petrova; members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 > > Hi All! > > There's no such document in RIPE database. > But I suppose Natalya is speaking about this: > > "[Apologies for duplicate emails] > > Dear Colleagues, > > The RIPE NCC is currently formulating the Draft Charging Scheme 2010. > The Draft Charging Scheme 2010 will take into account the > requirements of policy proposal 2007-01, "Direct Internet > Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC", and the > discussions that took place at the RIPE NCC General Meeting > in May 2009 regarding the 2010 Charging Scheme. > > The main features of the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 will be: > > - As in previous years, there will be five membership > categories - Extra Small, Small, Medium, Large and Extra Large > - The 2010 fee for each membership category will be the same > as for 2009 > - An algorithm will determine a score that decides what > category a member belongs to > - The score will be based on Provider Aggregatable (PA) IPv4 > and PA IPv6 allocated over time > - Direct assignments will have a recurring charge per > assignment and the fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment > > The RIPE NCC will publish the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 at > the beginning of July 2009. The RIPE NCC Executive Board will > then monitor discussion and input from the RIPE NCC > membership before publishing a final version of the Draft > Charging Scheme 2010 by 9 September 2009. The RIPE NCC > membership will vote on this version at the RIPE NCC General > Meeting on 7 October 2009. > > The RIPE NCC notes that this proposal for the Draft Charging > Scheme 2010 is subject to change based on advice from the > RIPE NCC's lawyers on tax and legal issues. > > Membership discussion of the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 > proposal can take place at <members-discuss(a)ripe.net>. > > Best regards, > > Axel Pawlik > Managing Director > RIPE NCC" > > Kind Regards > Sergey Sulava > > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-admin(a)ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Hostmaster > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:22 PM > To: Natalya Petrova; members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 > > Privyet Natalya > > Where is this document? I cant see it on RIPE? > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-admin(a)ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Natalya Petrova > Sent: 18 June 2009 11:29 > To: members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 > > RegID: kz.kazaktelecom > > Good morning, dear colleagues! > Thanks for your message. > I have read on a site the information be relative Charging Scheme > 2010. There are some questions for me. > I ask the help in the explanatory. > Questions: > 1) " - Direct assignments will have a recurring charge per assignment > and the > fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment" - It mentions only PI? or > PA? or PI+PA? > 2) "fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment" - It every month a > payment? or every quarter? or for a year? > 3) "fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment" - It is payment for what > quantity of addresses (50EUR= ? IPs)? > 4) " - Direct assignments will have a recurring charge per assignment > and the > fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment" - Operates for all direct > assignments? or Only new direct assignments (included after 3 May, > 2009)? > I shall be very grateful for explanatories. > Thanks for the help and understanding. > Yours faithfully, > Natalya > > > *Disclaimer:* > This message (including any attachments) contains > confidential information > intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is > protected by law. If > you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this > message and are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this > message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly > prohibited. > > *Ограничения:* > Данное сообщение (включая любые вложения) может содержать > конфиденциальную информацию и быть предназначенным исключительно > для личности или организации, которой оно адресовано. Если Вы не > являетесь надлежащим адресатом, то настоящим Вы уведомлены, что любое > раскрытие, копирование, распространение или использование содержания > этого сообщения строго запрещено. > > > > This message has been scanned for viruses by Mail Control - > www.adaptplc.com > >

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Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010
by David Martin 18 Jun '09

18 Jun '09

Hi, May I ask you why we receive your chat on our corporate e-mail ?? Rgds, --- David Martin Head of Corporate Solutions MIG Investments SA 14, Route des Gouttes d'Or 2008 Neuchâtel Switzerland Phone +41 32 722 86 00 Mobile +41 78 692 29 34 Fax +41 32 722 86 01 Email d.martin(a)migfx.com Home http://www.migfx.com/ Disclaimer: This communication may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. It is intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not use, read, retransmit, disseminate or take any action in reliance upon it. Please notify the sender that you have received it in error and immediately delete the entire communication, including any attachments. MIG Investments SA does not encrypt and cannot ensure the confidentiality or integrity of external e-mail communications and, therefore, cannot be responsible for any unauthorized access, disclosure, use or tampering that may occur during transmission. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. MIG Investments SA accepts no liability for the content of this email, or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of the information provide. ----- Original Message ----- From: members-discuss-admin(a)ripe.net <members-discuss-admin(a)ripe.net> To: Hostmaster <hostmaster(a)uk.tiscali.com> Cc: Natalya Petrova <natalya.petrova(a)telecom.kz>; members-discuss(a)ripe.net <members-discuss(a)ripe.net> Sent: Thu Jun 18 13:30:22 2009 Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 > Where is this document? I cant see it on RIPE? I guess Natalya is referring to this message: From: Fergal Cunningham <fergalc(a)ripe.net> Subject: [ncc-announce] Proposed Draft Charging Scheme 2010 To: ncc-announce(a)ripe.net, regional-russia(a)ripe.net Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:54:20 +0200 Message-ID: <4A38BD4C.9050608(a)ripe.net> -- Florian Weimer <fweimer(a)bfk.de> BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstraße 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99

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FW: [ncc-announce] Proposed Draft Charging Scheme 2010
by Martin Vyskocil 18 Jun '09

18 Jun '09

FYI Martin -----Original Message----- From: ncc-announce-admin(a)ripe.net [mailto:ncc-announce-admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Fergal Cunningham Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 11:54 AM To: ncc-announce(a)ripe.net; regional-russia(a)ripe.net Subject: [ncc-announce] Proposed Draft Charging Scheme 2010 [Apologies for duplicate emails] Dear Colleagues, The RIPE NCC is currently formulating the Draft Charging Scheme 2010. The Draft Charging Scheme 2010 will take into account the requirements of policy proposal 2007-01, "Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC", and the discussions that took place at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2009 regarding the 2010 Charging Scheme. The main features of the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 will be: - As in previous years, there will be five membership categories - Extra Small, Small, Medium, Large and Extra Large - The 2010 fee for each membership category will be the same as for 2009 - An algorithm will determine a score that decides what category a member belongs to - The score will be based on Provider Aggregatable (PA) IPv4 and PA IPv6 allocated over time - Direct assignments will have a recurring charge per assignment and the fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment The RIPE NCC will publish the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 at the beginning of July 2009. The RIPE NCC Executive Board will then monitor discussion and input from the RIPE NCC membership before publishing a final version of the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 by 9 September 2009. The RIPE NCC membership will vote on this version at the RIPE NCC General Meeting on 7 October 2009. The RIPE NCC notes that this proposal for the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 is subject to change based on advice from the RIPE NCC's lawyers on tax and legal issues. Membership discussion of the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 proposal can take place at <members-discuss(a)ripe.net>. Best regards, Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC

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