So, you will not return them until everyone switches to IPv6, i.e. NEVER! That's why we need to change the fee scheme. Since the least interested in switching to IPv6 are those who have received a lot of IPv4 and are now happy to sell them at a huge margin. If the transition to IPv6 has not taken place for so many years, then something has gone wrong. Or maybe, in fact, those who can do the most (the big players) are the least interested in it. IPv4 shortage is a great way to get rid of new business rivals.

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 12:43:58PM +0300, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:

...

Ok! Friends if you did it (moving to IPv6) please return IPv4 to RIPE. More people will be happy! Why not?

Assuming that IPv4 will make you happy is a stockholm syndrome.

Get over it.

Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Ingo Lalla, Karin Schuler, Sebastian Cler Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279

----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.

Pavel Polyakov, Bedankt dat je contact met ons hebt opgenomen. Dit is een automatisch antwoord ter bevestiging van de ontvangst van je ticket. Ons team zal zo snel mogelijk contact met je opnemen. Zorg bij reacties dat de ticket-ID in het onderwerp blijft, zodat we je reacties kunnen volgen. Ticket-ID: LNW-179-85712 Onderwerp: [members-discuss] Re: Charging Scheme Task Force 2024 Meeting Minutes (10 December 2024) Afdeling: InternetToday Type: Issue Status: Open Prioriteit: Normaal met vriendelijke groet, InternetToday Managed Hosting & Cloud Solutions Jan Campertlaan 2 3201 AX Spijkenisse The Netherlands T: +31 (0)88 - 750 70 00 E: support@internettoday.nl W: www.internettoday.nl Bij InternetToday zijn we continu bezig om de kwaliteit van onze dienstverlening te verbeteren. Hierbij kunnen we jouw feedback goed gebruiken. We zouden het op prijs stellen als je jouw mening achterlaat op: https://g.page/r/CSnwkC6kmb9IEBM/review De inhoud van dit bericht is alleen bestemd voor de geadresseerde en kan vertrouwelijke of persoonlijke informatie bevatten. Als je dit bericht onbedoeld ontvangt verzoeken we je deze te verwijderen en de afzender te informeren. Het is niet toegestaan om een bericht dat niet voor jou bestemd is te verspreiden. Aan dit bericht, inclusief bijlagen, kunnen geen rechten ontleend worden, tenzij schriftelijk anders is overeengekomen. ------------------------------------------------------

James A. T. Rice - Jump Networks, Bedankt dat je contact met ons hebt opgenomen. Dit is een automatisch antwoord ter bevestiging van de ontvangst van je ticket. Ons team zal zo snel mogelijk contact met je opnemen. Zorg bij reacties dat de ticket-ID in het onderwerp blijft, zodat we je reacties kunnen volgen. Ticket-ID: RGG-715-36139 Onderwerp: [members-discuss] Re: Charging Scheme Task Force 2024 Meeting Minutes (10 December 2024) Afdeling: InternetToday Type: Issue Status: Open Prioriteit: Normaal met vriendelijke groet, InternetToday Managed Hosting & Cloud Solutions Jan Campertlaan 2 3201 AX Spijkenisse The Netherlands T: +31 (0)88 - 750 70 00 E: support@internettoday.nl W: www.internettoday.nl Bij InternetToday zijn we continu bezig om de kwaliteit van onze dienstverlening te verbeteren. Hierbij kunnen we jouw feedback goed gebruiken. We zouden het op prijs stellen als je jouw mening achterlaat op: https://g.page/r/CSnwkC6kmb9IEBM/review De inhoud van dit bericht is alleen bestemd voor de geadresseerde en kan vertrouwelijke of persoonlijke informatie bevatten. Als je dit bericht onbedoeld ontvangt verzoeken we je deze te verwijderen en de afzender te informeren. Het is niet toegestaan om een bericht dat niet voor jou bestemd is te verspreiden. Aan dit bericht, inclusief bijlagen, kunnen geen rechten ontleend worden, tenzij schriftelijk anders is overeengekomen. ------------------------------------------------------

Niels Dettenbach, Bedankt dat je contact met ons hebt opgenomen. Dit is een automatisch antwoord ter bevestiging van de ontvangst van je ticket. Ons team zal zo snel mogelijk contact met je opnemen. Zorg bij reacties dat de ticket-ID in het onderwerp blijft, zodat we je reacties kunnen volgen. Ticket-ID: CVP-492-28498 Onderwerp: [members-discuss] Re: Charging Scheme Task Force 2024 Meeting Minutes (10 December 2024) Afdeling: InternetToday Type: Issue Status: Open Prioriteit: Normaal met vriendelijke groet, InternetToday Managed Hosting & Cloud Solutions Jan Campertlaan 2 3201 AX Spijkenisse The Netherlands T: +31 (0)88 - 750 70 00 E: support@internettoday.nl W: www.internettoday.nl Bij InternetToday zijn we continu bezig om de kwaliteit van onze dienstverlening te verbeteren. Hierbij kunnen we jouw feedback goed gebruiken. We zouden het op prijs stellen als je jouw mening achterlaat op: https://g.page/r/CSnwkC6kmb9IEBM/review De inhoud van dit bericht is alleen bestemd voor de geadresseerde en kan vertrouwelijke of persoonlijke informatie bevatten. Als je dit bericht onbedoeld ontvangt verzoeken we je deze te verwijderen en de afzender te informeren. Het is niet toegestaan om een bericht dat niet voor jou bestemd is te verspreiden. Aan dit bericht, inclusief bijlagen, kunnen geen rechten ontleend worden, tenzij schriftelijk anders is overeengekomen. ------------------------------------------------------

Hi fellow members, RIPE is committed to treat members equally but can't provide each member with the resources they need (namely IPv4 space). So this promise fails and we may want to compensate for that unfairness with an adjusted billing. We can come up with interesting charging schemes as discussed - I won't add on that topic. The situation would be less painful for some but still remain unfair. What would be fair is to aim to go back to a situation where every member has access to the resources they need. As it is impossible to determine the exact number of resources a member really needs, we can't do anything fair about IPv4 space. Except for one thing : getting rid of it. What we need is not IPv6 adoption, it is an IPv4 phase out plan. Without such a plan there is little incentive to stop using it. The plan can start with RIPE making some services like LIR portal accessible IPv6-only, at start a few weeks a year then permanently. We can progressively add more services IPv6-only, financial incentives, promote "ipv6-only days", whatever. But we need a date at which point root servers are ipv6-only, all data related to ipv4 is removed from the registry, and members agreed to stop forwarding ipv4 on public networks (and if there is no longer any source of truth about who is supposed to announce what it would be insecure to continue forwarding anyway). However far in the future this date may be set, we need it to be set to make things move. Some countries already have a plan (whole country for China and partial for Czech Republic if I'm right). IMO, we should focus on such a plan rather than relying on the charging scheme to address the issue. If we can do like these countries and aim for 2030-32 (!), then that's only a few years left of unfairness. Hoping my input was worth your time reading, I wish all of you the best. Alexis Hanicotte VelumWare SARL On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:55 AM Murat Terzioglu | PREBITS < m.terzioglu@prebits.de> wrote:

Hi,

why should they return?

They sell them for 7500-8500€ for /24, where they only pay 50€ / year…

I would not return either…

--

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards

*Murat TERZIOGLU* *PREBITS - Premium Business IT Solutions*

Bochumer Str. 20

D-44866 Bochum

Telefon: 0234/58825994

Telefax: 0234/58825995

www.prebits.de

m.terzioglu@prebits.de

USt-ID: DE315418902

Am 14.01.2025 um 10:56 schrieb sdy@a-n-t.ru:

 Ok! Friends if you did it (moving to IPv6) please return IPv4 to RIPE. More people will be happy! Why not?

+1

--

Kind regards

Sebastian Becker

[T-Logo mit Schriftzug "Connecting your world."]

The compulsory statement can be found here:

www.telekom.com/compulsory-statement< http://www.telekom.com/compulsory-statement>

Am 14.01.25, 08:55 schrieb "Gert Doering" <gert@space.net>:

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 06:01:41AM +0300,

sdy@a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru> wrote:

-- My decision IPV4 problem:

This is the problem. Stop being obsessed with IPv4, move to IPv6.

Gert Doering

-- NetMaster

--

have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Ingo

Lalla,

Karin Schuler, Sebastian Cler

Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A.

Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)

Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279

----------------------------- Serbulov Dmitry ANT sdy@a-n-t.ru

----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/

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On 14.01.25 12:26, Alexis Hanicotte via members-discuss wrote:

But we need a date at which point root servers are ipv6-only

At this point, if not earlier¹, you're not talking about activities of RIPE anymore². Also, it's a prime occasion for everyone who wants to fracture the Internet along national borders to turn up the volume, if not worse ... ¹ As in, someone in the "now IPv6 only" RIPE region trying to use IPv4-only services someplace else. ² The root servers are distributed across the planet - and publicly accessible, which means that anyone running his own forwarding resolver can modify the hint file so as to only use root servers that *still do* serve IPv4 data. Kind regards, -- Jochen Bern Systemingenieur Binect GmbH

It will nothing change. Because LIR portal not a thing needed every day and even month. The bigest problem is a great number of small clients and network for which it is very very very real hard to do migration to IPv6 or will make work in mixed IPv4+IPv6 mode. Unfortunately - it was a very bad idea to make new IPv6 protocol uncompotible with old. So, in many small network migration it's need fully rebuild and reconfigure too much independed clients and devices in short time. Yes! Big companies can to do it by having specialists and spending money. But for LIR with a lot ammount of small and of diferent level independed clients migration stay imposible, as fact. So again, now we see, it was a big mistake thinking that everyone will migrate to IPv6. I think it really happen in dozens years more. If we want to decide IPv4 problem, then comunity must work on decision to create posibilty stay end customers on IPv4 with core exchange networks migration to IPv6. I think, it will do not need so much changes and update end network devices. The main problem is DNS software that will can represent IPv6 to IPv4 and integrated with it "CG6NAT" for IPv4 to IPv6 translation. Plus all community support for these technologies with the allocation of special overlapping areas in IPv4 for direct connections IPv4 or IPv6 configurable by LIR. Modern high-performance equipments will handle it ease. If we will take more money for our budget, may be we can do it as our mission. Serbulov Dmitry.

Hi fellow members,

RIPE is committed to treat members equally but can't provide each member with the resources they need (namely IPv4 space). So this promise fails and we may want to compensate for that unfairness with an adjusted billing. We can come up with interesting charging schemes as discussed - I won't add on that topic. The situation would be less painful for some but still remain unfair. What would be fair is to aim to go back to a situation where every member has access to the resources they need. As it is impossible to determine the exact number of resources a member really needs, we can't do anything fair about IPv4 space. Except for one thing : getting rid of it. What we need is not IPv6 adoption, it is an IPv4 phase out plan. Without such a plan there is little incentive to stop using it. The plan can start with RIPE making some services like LIR portal accessible IPv6-only, at start a few weeks a year then permanently. We can progressively add more services IPv6-only, financial incentives, promote "ipv6-only days", whatever. But we need a date at which point root servers are ipv6-only, all data related to ipv4 is removed from the registry, and members agreed to stop forwarding ipv4 on public networks (and if there is no longer any source of truth about who is supposed to announce what it would be insecure to continue forwarding anyway). However far in the future this date may be set, we need it to be set to make things move.

Some countries already have a plan (whole country for China and partial for Czech Republic if I'm right). IMO, we should focus on such a plan rather than relying on the charging scheme to address the issue. If we can do like these countries and aim for 2030-32 (!), then that's only a few years left of unfairness.

Hoping my input was worth your time reading, I wish all of you the best.

Alexis Hanicotte VelumWare SARL

On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:55 AM Murat Terzioglu | PREBITS < m.terzioglu@prebits.de> wrote:

...

Hi,

why should they return?

They sell them for 7500-8500€ for /24, where they only pay 50€ / year…

I would not return either…

--

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards

*Murat TERZIOGLU* *PREBITS - Premium Business IT Solutions*

Bochumer Str. 20

D-44866 Bochum

Telefon: 0234/58825994

Telefax: 0234/58825995

www.prebits.de

m.terzioglu@prebits.de

USt-ID: DE315418902

Am 14.01.2025 um 10:56 schrieb sdy@a-n-t.ru:

 Ok! Friends if you did it (moving to IPv6) please return IPv4 to RIPE. More people will be happy! Why not?

+1

--

Kind regards

Sebastian Becker

[T-Logo mit Schriftzug "Connecting your world."]

The compulsory statement can be found here:

www.telekom.com/compulsory-statement< http://www.telekom.com/compulsory-statement>

Am 14.01.25, 08:55 schrieb "Gert Doering" <gert@space.net>:

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 06:01:41AM +0300,

sdy@a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru> wrote:

-- My decision IPV4 problem:

This is the problem. Stop being obsessed with IPv4, move to IPv6.

Gert Doering

-- NetMaster

--

have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Ingo

Lalla,

Karin Schuler, Sebastian Cler

Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A.

Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)

Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279

----------------------------- Serbulov Dmitry ANT sdy@a-n-t.ru

----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/

----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/

---

To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/

----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.

Franco Tauceri, Bedankt dat je contact met ons hebt opgenomen. Dit is een automatisch antwoord ter bevestiging van de ontvangst van je ticket. Ons team zal zo snel mogelijk contact met je opnemen. Zorg bij reacties dat de ticket-ID in het onderwerp blijft, zodat we je reacties kunnen volgen. Ticket-ID: GWK-346-97147 Onderwerp: [members-discuss] Re: Charging Scheme Task Force 2024 Meeting Minutes (10 December 2024) Afdeling: InternetToday Type: Issue Status: Open Prioriteit: Normaal met vriendelijke groet, InternetToday Managed Hosting & Cloud Solutions Jan Campertlaan 2 3201 AX Spijkenisse The Netherlands T: +31 (0)88 - 750 70 00 E: support@internettoday.nl W: www.internettoday.nl Bij InternetToday zijn we continu bezig om de kwaliteit van onze dienstverlening te verbeteren. Hierbij kunnen we jouw feedback goed gebruiken. We zouden het op prijs stellen als je jouw mening achterlaat op: https://g.page/r/CSnwkC6kmb9IEBM/review De inhoud van dit bericht is alleen bestemd voor de geadresseerde en kan vertrouwelijke of persoonlijke informatie bevatten. Als je dit bericht onbedoeld ontvangt verzoeken we je deze te verwijderen en de afzender te informeren. Het is niet toegestaan om een bericht dat niet voor jou bestemd is te verspreiden. Aan dit bericht, inclusief bijlagen, kunnen geen rechten ontleend worden, tenzij schriftelijk anders is overeengekomen. ------------------------------------------------------