Hi, 1. Very sensitive data to collect. Really must be reviewed thoroughly by legal on how to collect, store and use such information. I personally would feel very uncomfortable answering any of these questions! 2. Is it really that wise to even have that survey prior to a meeting in UAE? It is illegal to be gay or transvestite there (unless something changed recently)...not the most appropriate questions when registering to visit a place where one if present will transgress local laws. Cheers, David David Hilario IP Manager Larus Cloud Service Limited p: +852 29888918 m: +359 89 764 1784 f: +852 29888068 a: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, HKSAR w: laruscloudservice.net e: d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net On 2 June 2017 at 16:49, Amanda Gowland <agowland@ripe.net> wrote:

Hi Denis,

Thanks for your feedback.

On 02/06/17 15:32, denis walker wrote:

Hi All

I am a bit late in getting into this group, but had a few pointers/concerns sent to me.

I am not sure what the goals are with trying to measure all these metrics - gender, sexuality, religion, race, class. What are you going to do if you find only 1% of attendees are gay? Are you going to offer incentives to gay people attending to increase it to the population average?

Did you watch the presentation from the plenary session on Friday morning or read the RIPE Labs article? Those might be a good place to start for some background info/context.

I am also DEEPLY concerned at the rush to get some question(s) on the registration form for RIPE 75. What you are asking for is the most sensitive and personal information people can give. With some of the countries in our region, if this information gets into the wrong hands it can cost lives. There are serious, serious, serious privacy concerns here.

Agree that it's sensitive info, which is why we want it to be opt-in...and the scope of the questions we'll include is being discussed.

Amanda said "This data will only be used anonymously for metric benchmarking."

Taken out of context a bit here, Denis. I wasn't making a statement, I was suggesting options on text to include for background information.

Sorry, but before we get to how this data is going to be used:

-how is it going to be collected -who is going to collect it -how and where will it be stored -who has access to the raw data -how will the sensitive data be harvested from the personally identifiable data -are there Dutch/EU data protection issues with collecting/storing this data in an identifiable way

We have a legal team that will be involved before anything is announced or implemented. This thread is merely to find out the scope of a question we *could* include on the form *if possible* in time for RIPE 75.

This is not something you announce on a Thursday with a deadline for a decision on Monday. I hope a lot more thought and care will be applied to potentially life threatening personal information.

Nothing's been announced. I was asking for input to include in our discussion with SWE on Tuesday.

cheers denis

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(sorry for the top post but yahoo does a bad job with inline comments) Hi Leslie If you tick a box saying 'decline to state' many people will make assumptions that you have something to hide. Some people who are not open about some of these issues will also feel uncomfortable being presented with such questions if there is any doubt about the anonymity of the data. I have been there myself. I am very open these days but for half my life I was totally closeted. Had I been presented with such questions then I would have lied and given you the 'standard' answers rather than tell the truth or say no comment. I am also "sure" the RIPE NCC would do it's best to keep such data private. But with such highly sensitive personal data we cannot have the same company collecting both the identifiable registration data and this sensitive data. There is no need to do that. There are companies that will manage the collection of the sensitive data separately. I don't need to name anywhere but there is a country in the RIPE region that is currently executing gay people. The leader of a neighboring country is looking the other way and denying it is happening. There are several other countries who make no secret of their disgust about gay people. This is not the same as collecting attendees age or qualifications. You cannot and must not attempt to do this 'on the cheap'. If you want to collect this information you must do it right. cheersdenis From: Leslie <geekgirl@gmail.com> To: David Hilario <d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net> Cc: "diversity@ripe.net" <diversity@ripe.net> Sent: Friday, 2 June 2017, 17:25 Subject: Re: [diversity] Options for gender on meeting registration On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 8:10 AM, David Hilario <d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net> wrote:

Hi,

1. Very sensitive data to collect. Really must be reviewed thoroughly by legal on how to collect, store and use such information.

I personally would feel very uncomfortable answering any of these questions!

Does the "decline to state" option make you feel uncomfortable? These are optional questions, so that we can collect demographic data with which to track our progress in increasing diversity.

2. Is it really that wise to even have that survey prior to a meeting in UAE? It is illegal to be gay or transvestite there (unless something changed recently)...not the most appropriate questions when registering to visit a place where one if present will transgress local laws.

I'm sure that RIPE NCC will be able to collect and store the data in an anonymized fashion.  We are not intending to associate any demographic data with any individual - instead we would like to have metrics in order to gauge our progress. RIPE is an international community, and I know that common english terms can vary widely between different areas.  In the US, the term 'transvestite' is often used as a slur. Transgendered is the widely accepted nomenclature. I find http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology to be a good guide for definitions of trans terminology. Thanks! Leslie

Cheers, David David Hilario

IP Manager

Larus Cloud Service Limited

p: +852 29888918  m: +359 89 764 1784 f: +852 29888068 a: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, HKSAR w: laruscloudservice.net e: d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net

On 2 June 2017 at 16:49, Amanda Gowland <agowland@ripe.net> wrote:

...

Hi Denis,

Thanks for your feedback.

On 02/06/17 15:32, denis walker wrote:

Hi All

I am a bit late in getting into this group, but had a few pointers/concerns sent to me.

I am not sure what the goals are with trying to measure all these metrics - gender, sexuality, religion, race, class. What are you going to do if you find only 1% of attendees are gay? Are you going to offer incentives to gay people attending to increase it to the population average?

Did you watch the presentation from the plenary session on Friday morning or read the RIPE Labs article? Those might be a good place to start for some background info/context.

I am also DEEPLY concerned at the rush to get some question(s) on the registration form for RIPE 75. What you are asking for is the most sensitive and personal information people can give. With some of the countries in our region, if this information gets into the wrong hands it can cost lives. There are serious, serious, serious privacy concerns here.

Agree that it's sensitive info, which is why we want it to be opt-in...and the scope of the questions we'll include is being discussed.

Amanda said "This data will only be used anonymously for metric benchmarking."

Taken out of context a bit here, Denis. I wasn't making a statement, I was suggesting options on text to include for background information.

Sorry, but before we get to how this data is going to be used:

-how is it going to be collected -who is going to collect it -how and where will it be stored -who has access to the raw data -how will the sensitive data be harvested from the personally identifiable data -are there Dutch/EU data protection issues with collecting/storing this data in an identifiable way

We have a legal team that will be involved before anything is announced or implemented. This thread is merely to find out the scope of a question we *could* include on the form *if possible* in time for RIPE 75.

This is not something you announce on a Thursday with a deadline for a decision on Monday. I hope a lot more thought and care will be applied to potentially life threatening personal information.

Nothing's been announced. I was asking for input to include in our discussion with SWE on Tuesday.

cheers denis

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Morning, Denis, as you say, it's been a while. In most cases these days in the UK and Ireland the preferred umbrella term is transgender. Of course different people use different terms, but a number of the terms you've used below would be considered offensive or, at best, a bit gauche. All of that said, we should be focusing on what we can do around initial, opt-in, anonymised data collection. There is no question that any such information must be separated out and proper data protection systems must be in place. The details of these systems are not really for discussion here, that's for the NCC teams to implement. They are the experts and we should trust them. We cannot, as a group, micromanage every aspect of this. This is going to be an iterative process and I've no doubt we're going to get some things wrong as we work to help the continual improvement of the RIPE community. However it is important that we do act, in a strategic fashion, and not go around and around in some attempt to reach perfection. Thanks, Brian Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 denis walker wrote on 02/06/2017 20:17:

Hi Leslie

"RIPE is an international community, and I know that common english terms can vary widely between different areas. In the US, the term 'transvestite' is often used as a slur. Transgendered is the widely accepted nomenclature. I find http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology to be a good guide for definitions of trans terminology."

You are right, it is not easy to get terminology right across borders. But this list is USA biased and that is not the same as in the UK for example. But in either case 'transvestite' is not the same as 'transgendered'. From this list 'transvestite' is synonymous with 'cross-dresser'.

It says, in the explanation for cross-dresser, "The older term "transvestite" is considered derogatory by many in the United States.". That is not the case in the UK. Whilst transvestite (trannie or tranny) and cross-dresser (CD) are to some extent interchangeable, they are often used in different contexts. In a profile on a personals web site you may say "Looking for a CD". But if you went to the gay village in Manchester and wanted to find one of the bars where many transvestites meet you would ask someone "where is the trannie bar?".

But of course these terms constantly evolve and it is a while since I was a regular in Manchester....so it may be all different now :)

cheers denis

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Denis, On 03/06/2017 11:48, denis walker wrote:

HI Brian

There are a number of points here that I must take issue with.

"I've no doubt we're going to get some things wrong" You cannot afford to get things wrong with this. In Chechnya gay and transgendered people are being murdered. In Russia and most of the middle east (where the next RIPE Meeting is to be held), to be identified as gay or transgendered also puts your safety at risk. What is 'important' is that you don't put anyone's safety at risk.

Yes, I'm very aware of what is happening across the world and where the next RIPE meeting will be. We will get things wrong. The protection of data was not what I was referring to. More that we need forward momentum on this and that in general, rather than in the specific, perfect is the enemy of good/done. I would imagine that a number of people, when faced with such a question and the assurances from the NCC that the data will not be connected to them in any way, will still opt-out. That is their choice.

I am surprised you think the topic of how this data is collected anonymously is just a detail to be passed onto someone else and to think about it is considered micro management. This is a core issue. What questions you ask are details. This data MUST be collected by a third party organisation and never in any way associated with identifiable registration data.

I didn't say the topic, I said the details. And the questions asked will be decided by this group. The mechanisms of the registration system are up to the NCC, with guidance from the community. We need to be happy with the robustness of that protection, not design it for them.

If you don't do it this way the data you collect is meaningless anyway. Making it 'opt-in' does not help. Anyone from parts of the region where it is dangerous to be identified in this way will not simply 'opt-out'. That in itself is a statement. They will opt-in and lie. That is what I would do.

RIPE75 will be a single data point and there are all sorts of issues with what we can take from that, even if we got perfect information from all attendees. While it would be awful if our transgender community members from those parts of the region felt they had to choose one of the binary options I do not believe it will skew the data that much. This sounds like I'm minimising things, which I am not. I'm trying to propose a way to start collecting (anonymised) data as one initiative and I am concerned that if we decided that perfection of completed data is a necessary first step at whichever meeting we start at, then we will never start. Sadly the evil people that would harm someone for being "different" to their norm aren't going to go away any time soon. And I recognise the privilege I have that this isn't an immediate danger for me.

I would like some comment from the RIPE NCC on how they propose to collect this sensitive information. And yes I do want technical details, not just some vague comment and assurance. I will scrutinize the way this is to be done and if I don't consider it safe I will continue to object.

Yes, we don't expect to go forward without that. That will be happening next week and it's possible the NCC will still say they're not happy it can be done. I don't, as I said, see this group as being responsible for managing the technical details of this, but then again, I'm not in charge of this group, so it is not solely my decision.

I object to this being done in a rushed (iterative) way for RIPE 75.

And you are taking the wrong meaning from my use of the word iterative. I mean the ongoing process of increasing diversity in the community must be iterative. If the NCC are not happy they can anonymise the data or if the community here aren't happy with the plan, then yes, we must pause and go back to our original plan of first collecting the data at RIPE76. I do worry what objections will be raised then and whether we will strive for perfection and achieve nothing over a long period of time? Brian

------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> *To:* diversity@ripe.net *Sent:* Saturday, 3 June 2017, 10:59 *Subject:* Re: [diversity] Options for gender on meeting registration

Morning,

Denis, as you say, it's been a while. In most cases these days in the UK and Ireland the preferred umbrella term is transgender. Of course different people use different terms, but a number of the terms you've used below would be considered offensive or, at best, a bit gauche.

All of that said, we should be focusing on what we can do around initial, opt-in, anonymised data collection.

There is no question that any such information must be separated out and proper data protection systems must be in place. The details of these systems are not really for discussion here, that's for the NCC teams to implement. They are the experts and we should trust them. We cannot, as a group, micromanage every aspect of this.

This is going to be an iterative process and I've no doubt we're going to get some things wrong as we work to help the continual improvement of the RIPE community. However it is important that we do act, in a strategic fashion, and not go around and around in some attempt to reach perfection.

Thanks,

Brian

Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie <mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

denis walker wrote on 02/06/2017 20:17:

...

Hi Leslie

"RIPE is an international community, and I know that common english terms can vary widely between different areas. In the US, the term 'transvestite' is often used as a slur. Transgendered is the widely accepted nomenclature. I find http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology to be a good guide for definitions of trans terminology."

You are right, it is not easy to get terminology right across borders. But this list is USA biased and that is not the same as in the UK for example. But in either case 'transvestite' is not the same as 'transgendered'. From this list 'transvestite' is synonymous with 'cross-dresser'.

It says, in the explanation for cross-dresser, "The older term "transvestite" is considered derogatory by many in the United States.". That is not the case in the UK. Whilst transvestite (trannie or tranny) and cross-dresser (CD) are to some extent interchangeable, they are often used in different contexts. In a profile on a personals web site you may say "Looking for a CD". But if you went to the gay village in Manchester and wanted to find one of the bars where many transvestites meet you would ask someone "where is the trannie bar?".

But of course these terms constantly evolve and it is a while since I was a regular in Manchester....so it may be all different now :)

cheers denis

...

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On 2017-06-03 12:48, denis walker wrote:

HI Brian

There are a number of points here that I must take issue with.

"I've no doubt we're going to get some things wrong" You cannot afford to get things wrong with this. In Chechnya gay and transgendered people are being murdered. In Russia and most of the middle east (where the next RIPE Meeting is to be held), to be identified as gay or transgendered also puts your safety at risk. What is 'important' is that you don't put anyone's safety at risk.

I am surprised you think the topic of how this data is collected anonymously is just a detail to be passed onto someone else and to think about it is considered micro management. This is a core issue. What questions you ask are details. This data MUST be collected by a third party organisation and never in any way associated with identifiable registration data.

If you don't do it this way the data you collect is meaningless anyway. Making it 'opt-in' does not help. Anyone from parts of the region where it is dangerous to be identified in this way will not simply 'opt-out'. That in itself is a statement. They will opt-in and lie. That is what I would do.

I would like some comment from the RIPE NCC on how they propose to collect this sensitive information. And yes I do want technical details, not just some vague comment and assurance. I will scrutinize the way this is to be done and if I don't consider it safe I will continue to object.

Like I said before, we are at the early discussion phase of this and are not rushing anything through. We first need to understand what is possible to implement in time for RIPE 75 registration and then work with legal to determine the best way to collect the data *if SWE indicate that there's time to have something in place*. When we know more, we'll share more. All I needed to know was the appropriate wording of such a question so that SWE could give us an indication of whether they could do it or not - the rest of the logistics are still something that need to be discussed, researched, etc.

I object to this being done in a rushed (iterative) way for RIPE 75.

cheers denis

------------------------- FROM: Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> TO: diversity@ripe.net SENT: Saturday, 3 June 2017, 10:59 SUBJECT: Re: [diversity] Options for gender on meeting registration

Morning,

Denis, as you say, it's been a while. In most cases these days in the UK and Ireland the preferred umbrella term is transgender. Of course different people use different terms, but a number of the terms you've

used below would be considered offensive or, at best, a bit gauche.

All of that said, we should be focusing on what we can do around initial, opt-in, anonymised data collection.

There is no question that any such information must be separated out and proper data protection systems must be in place. The details of these systems are not really for discussion here, that's for the NCC teams to implement. They are the experts and we should trust them. We cannot, as a group, micromanage every aspect of this.

This is going to be an iterative process and I've no doubt we're going

to get some things wrong as we work to help the continual improvement of the RIPE community. However it is important that we do act, in a strategic fashion, and not go around and around in some attempt to reach perfection.

Thanks,

Brian

Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

denis walker wrote on 02/06/2017 20:17:

...

Hi Leslie

"RIPE is an international community, and I know that common english terms can vary widely between different areas. In the US, the term 'transvestite' is often used as a slur. Transgendered is the widely accepted nomenclature. I find

...

to be a good guide for definitions of trans terminology."

You are right, it is not easy to get terminology right across borders. But this list is USA biased and that is not the same as in the UK for example. But in either case 'transvestite' is not the same as 'transgendered'. From this list 'transvestite' is synonymous with 'cross-dresser'.

It says, in the explanation for cross-dresser, "The older term "transvestite" is considered derogatory by many in the United States.". That is not the case in the UK. Whilst transvestite (trannie or

...

and cross-dresser (CD) are to some extent interchangeable, they are often used in different contexts. In a profile on a personals web site you may say "Looking for a CD". But if you went to the gay village in Manchester and wanted to find one of the bars where many

http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology [1] tranny) transvestites

...

meet you would ask someone "where is the trannie bar?".

But of course these terms constantly evolve and it is a while since I was a regular in Manchester....so it may be all different now :)

cheers denis

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Links: ------ [1] http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology [2] https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity

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