Re: [anti-abuse-wg] DRAFT: RIPE proposal - implementation of an
On 10/04/2010 14:32, Jeffrey Race wrote:
Legal systems are ineffective in dealing with this type of issue for well understood structural reasons. See
<http://www.camblab.com/misc/univ_std.txt> based on <http://www.camblab.com/nugget/spam_03.pdf>
I disagree. It is of course more timeconsuming, but legal systems (should) give everyone a fair chance. Franks witch-hunt suggestion is exactly what I don't want. Legal systems also pursue the party that is legally doing something wrong, not the ISP or any other third party that shouldn't be bothered in the first place (of course sometimes it is the ISP etc). A lot of what you would define as spam isn't spam at all in legal terms. The company I work for block this spam too (only the spam, not the entire provider), but we would certainly not punish or file a lawsuit.
Hi,
A lot of what you would define as spam isn't spam at all in legal terms. The company I work for block this spam too (only the spam, not the entire provider), but we would certainly not punish or file a lawsuit.
That is your opinion. And we learned with this group that there is no general consensus about how to define spam or abuse. I think that everything IS spam, what somebody, who receives it, is bothered with, because he did no want it, he feel offended, did not ask for it or whatever personal reason. Compare it to normal adverts in TV or magazine. The person viewing or reading it, still can decide not to consume TV or read magazines, switch the channel or read different ones, where hes interested in the adverts, because it belongs to work or interest and where they dont bother him. With mail you cant do that. You have a mail address and receive stuff you did not ask for, that has nothing to do with business or interest. E.g. I dont want to buy viagra, but still get bothered with it. Im even offened with newsletters, where the sender thinks, that it could have something to do with my work, but actually fails with his estimation. I feel abused of stuff like this. And if I feel abused, I think its spam. Spam cannot be defined in general terms, because its definition depends from the recipients perpective. And thats excatly what is the background idea of a spam report delivery system. Let the recipient decide, what he think hes abuse about. Kind regards, Frank -- PHADE Software - PowerWeb http://www.powerweb.de Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast mailto:frank@powerweb.de Schinkelstrasse 17 fon: +49 33200 52920 14558 Nuthetal OT Rehbruecke, Germany fax: +49 33200 52921 ====================================================================== Public PGP Key available for frank@powerweb.de
2010/4/11 Frank Gadegast <phade@www.powerweb.de>
I think that everything IS spam, what somebody, who receives it, is bothered with, because he did no want it, he feel offended, did not ask for it or whatever personal reason.
Really? So the newsletter you've subscribed yesterday, received the first issue today and was happy about it, turns into spam tomorrow when they publish a story that annoys you? Now we're entering very interesting terrain...
You have a mail address and receive stuff you did not ask for, that has nothing to do with business or interest.
No, but it is something to do with consent, don't you think? The consent should be the most important thing when considering if something is spam.
And if I feel abused, I think its spam.
I might think that white is black, but it doesn't make it so. Consent, that is the key. And thats excatly what is the background idea of a spam report
delivery system. Let the recipient decide, what he think hes abuse about.
So, are you talking about abuse, or are you talking about spam?
-- Esa Laitinen Tel. +41 76 200 2870 skype/yahoo: reunaesa
Esa Laitinen wrote:
Hi,
2010/4/11 Frank Gadegast <phade@www.powerweb.de <mailto:phade@www.powerweb.de>>
I think that everything IS spam, what somebody, who receives it, is bothered with, because he did no want it, he feel offended, did not ask for it or whatever personal reason.
Really? So the newsletter you've subscribed yesterday, received the first issue today and was happy about it, turns into spam tomorrow when they publish a story that annoys you?
Now we're entering very interesting terrain...
No, why ? I wanted the newsletter and I can unsubscribe. But even then: when Im to stupid to unsubscribe and get angry about it and like to complain ? Whats wrong with that ? If I complain about that the webpage of the ISP looks stupid I could complain about it, if I dont like the weather in finland, I could complain about, and thats still something the ISP should take care of. You maybe know that yourself, that customers sometimes think, that you as your ISP are responsible for nearly everything. But the customer still complains. HOW the ISP is taking care of this, is a really different point. Like I outlined (about 20 times already) the system should start with a backlink included by RIPEs system, that enables the ISP to give feedback, how he treated the complaint. And this should be completely free for the member, how he categorizes the complaint. He should be able to select "has nothing to do with us", "out of scope", "no real complaint" up to "server was hacked here", "we are investigating this currently" to "problem fixed" or whatever else category we like to include. And now the point: RIPE NCC could then easily track, wich member is doing nothing ! And thats what we need to find out. And maybe some bad members find a trick to give feedback in an automatic way, with real comments, that look like, if they are really doing something, maybe to fool us all. But: first RIPE NCC can still find those that are doing nothing and probably after a while and a bit more expirience, they find even those, that are trying to fool us (e.g. by comparing own data to the data from other blacklists ?)
You have a mail address and receive stuff you did not ask for, that has nothing to do with business or interest.
No, but it is something to do with consent, don't you think? The consent should be the most important thing when considering if something is spam.
Not at all. We cannot reach consensus about what spam or abuse is. So lets forget it, lets talk about complaints and resulting abuse reports.
And thats excatly what is the background idea of a spam report delivery system. Let the recipient decide, what he think hes abuse about.
So, are you talking about abuse, or are you talking about spam?
Im taking about abuse reports and complaints.
-- Esa Laitinen Tel. +41 76 200 2870 skype/yahoo: reunaesa
-- Kind regards, Frank -- PHADE Software - PowerWeb http://www.powerweb.de Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast mailto:frank@powerweb.de Schinkelstrasse 17 fon: +49 33200 52920 14558 Nuthetal OT Rehbruecke, Germany fax: +49 33200 52921 ====================================================================== Public PGP Key available for frank@powerweb.de
On 12 Apr 2010, at 11:02, Frank Gadegast wrote:
<snip>
And this should be completely free for the member, how he categorizes the complaint. He should be able to select "has nothing to do with us", "out of scope", "no real complaint" up to "server was hacked here", "we are investigating this currently" to "problem fixed" or whatever else category we like to include.
Are you going to pay my staff to waste their time with spurious complaints? Is RIPE?
And now the point: RIPE NCC could then easily track, wich member is doing nothing ! And thats what we need to find out.
No - it's what you in your little world would like to find out
And maybe some bad members find a trick to give feedback in an automatic way, with real comments, that look like, if they are really doing something, maybe to fool us all.
And again - are you going to pay my staff to waste their time dealing with thousands of spurious complaints? Because that's basically what you're expecting us to do
Not at all. We cannot reach consensus about what spam or abuse is.
So lets forget it, lets talk about complaints and resulting abuse reports.
You cannot simply "forget it" You need to define clearly the boundaries of what your idea is meant to cover. if you cannot do that then it should be rejected immediately
And thats excatly what is the background idea of a spam report delivery system. Let the recipient decide, what he think hes abuse about. So, are you talking about abuse, or are you talking about spam?
Im taking about abuse reports and complaints.
Provide proper definitions of these or at least boundaries Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection ICANN Accredited Registrar http://www.blacknight.com/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://mneylon.tel Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 US: 213-233-1612 UK: 0844 484 9361 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote:
On 12 Apr 2010, at 11:02, Frank Gadegast wrote:
<snip>
HELLO MICHELE,
And this should be completely free for the member, how he categorizes the complaint. He should be able to select "has nothing to do with us", "out of scope", "no real complaint" up to "server was hacked here", "we are investigating this currently" to "problem fixed" or whatever else category we like to include.
Are you going to pay my staff to waste their time with spurious complaints?
Is RIPE?
What is more likely. That you get more reports about real abuse or more reports about funny things or things that dont have anything to do with you ? And what is more likely: that you receive more reports about something that has nothing to do with you than you get already on your normal info email address ? You will have to deal with them too. I dont think that the new system will create more work on false reports for you that much.
And now the point: RIPE NCC could then easily track, wich member is doing nothing ! And thats what we need to find out.
No - it's what you in your little world would like to find out
Sure Michele, a spammer does not want to be identified. An ISP thats lazy and does not care, what he lazyness is causing others, does not like to get identified either.
And maybe some bad members find a trick to give feedback in an automatic way, with real comments, that look like, if they are really doing something, maybe to fool us all.
And again - are you going to pay my staff to waste their time dealing with thousands of spurious complaints? Because that's basically what you're expecting us to do
See above.
Not at all. We cannot reach consensus about what spam or abuse is.
So lets forget it, lets talk about complaints and resulting abuse reports.
You cannot simply "forget it"
You need to define clearly the boundaries of what your idea is meant to cover.
Why, my system does not like to "cover" abuse. It likes to deliver abuse reports more easily, more standarized and likes to find out, what member is handling abuse reports and who doesnt.
if you cannot do that then it should be rejected immediately
Again, the next version will clearly state, that its not about abuse, its about complaints.
And thats excatly what is the background idea of a spam report delivery system. Let the recipient decide, what he think hes abuse about. So, are you talking about abuse, or are you talking about spam? Im taking about abuse reports and complaints.
Provide proper definitions of these or at least boundaries
That what all spammers want, to define abuse, what we can do. And that the main reason I hear here for year and that "need to define abuse" is the old criteria, the lazy members repeated here constantly to block all effort from the others, that are handling complaints and that like to get rid of all these criminal attacks (my opinion). Now the spammers can be afraid, because we can finally jump over that hurdle ;o) Kind regards, Frank
Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection ICANN Accredited Registrar http://www.blacknight.com/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://mneylon.tel Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 US: 213-233-1612 UK: 0844 484 9361 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
-- Mit freundlichen Gruessen, -- PHADE Software - PowerWeb http://www.powerweb.de Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast mailto:frank@powerweb.de Schinkelstrasse 17 fon: +49 33200 52920 14558 Nuthetal OT Rehbruecke, Germany fax: +49 33200 52921 ====================================================================== Public PGP Key available for frank@powerweb.de
-----Original Message----- From: anti-abuse-wg-admin@ripe.net [mailto:anti-abuse-wg- admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Frank Gadegast Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:03 PM To: Esa Laitinen; anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net
If I complain about that the webpage of the ISP looks stupid I could complain about it, if I dont like the weather in finland, I could complain about, and thats still something the ISP should take care of.
This would fall outside the scope of the Anti-Abuse WG, becoming off topic here. -- Thor Kottelin http://www.anta.net/
Thor Kottelin wrote: Hello Thor,
-----Original Message----- From: anti-abuse-wg-admin@ripe.net [mailto:anti-abuse-wg- admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Frank Gadegast Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:03 PM To: Esa Laitinen; anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net
If I complain about that the webpage of the ISP looks stupid I could complain about it, if I dont like the weather in finland, I could complain about, and thats still something the ISP should take care of.
This would fall outside the scope of the Anti-Abuse WG, becoming off topic here.
Why that ? A abuse complain is a abuse complain and belongs to this discussion. The question is, how the member has to handle it. Give me details and ideas instead of "washing" it away ... Kind regards, Frank -- PHADE Software - PowerWeb http://www.powerweb.de Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast mailto:frank@powerweb.de Schinkelstrasse 17 fon: +49 33200 52920 14558 Nuthetal OT Rehbruecke, Germany fax: +49 33200 52921 ====================================================================== Public PGP Key available for frank@powerweb.de -- Mit freundlichen Gruessen, -- PHADE Software - PowerWeb http://www.powerweb.de Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast mailto:frank@powerweb.de Schinkelstrasse 17 fon: +49 33200 52920 14558 Nuthetal OT Rehbruecke, Germany fax: +49 33200 52921 ====================================================================== Public PGP Key available for frank@powerweb.de
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Frank Gadegast wrote:
Why that ?
A abuse complain is a abuse complain and belongs to this discussion. The question is, how the member has to handle it.
Give me details and ideas instead of "washing" it away ...
In the four years I've been sitting behind our rather busy abuse mailbox we've had questions like: "Your customer published something I don't agree with. Take their website down now!" "Someone broke into my office, please could you send the security staff around sometime today". "My ex boyfriend is really annoying me, please tell him to stop e-mailing me". "I was playing CS2 with a ping time of 15ms, now 14ms, helpz!" "My internet activity is being traced by the Illuminati using your network, please help me. There's an albino monk at my door!" None of these are cases of *network* abuse, even though the often end up in an abuse mailbox, and so outside the scope of the address. HTH, James - -- James Davis +44 1235 822 229 PGP: 0xD1622876 JANET CSIRT 0870 850 2340 (+44 1235 822 340) Lumen House, Library Avenue, Didcot, Oxfordshire, OX11 0SG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iD8DBQFLwvxShZi14NFiKHYRAkP4AJ9iNwv0HPag51osszhHLG47JNt3UgCdFqCe 4FE92KCYM8cBItNF68s5yAU= =iRwI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- JANET(UK) is a trading name of The JNT Association, a company limited by guarantee which is registered in England under No. 2881024 and whose Registered Office is at Lumen House, Library Avenue, Harwell Science and Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire. OX11 0SG
On 12 Apr 2010, at 11:56, James Davis wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Frank Gadegast wrote:
Why that ?
A abuse complain is a abuse complain and belongs to this discussion. The question is, how the member has to handle it.
Give me details and ideas instead of "washing" it away ...
In the four years I've been sitting behind our rather busy abuse mailbox we've had questions like:
"Your customer published something I don't agree with. Take their website down now!"
"Someone broke into my office, please could you send the security staff around sometime today".
"My ex boyfriend is really annoying me, please tell him to stop e-mailing me".
"I was playing CS2 with a ping time of 15ms, now 14ms, helpz!"
"My internet activity is being traced by the Illuminati using your network, please help me. There's an albino monk at my door!"
None of these are cases of *network* abuse, even though the often end up in an abuse mailbox, and so outside the scope of the address.
James Sounds very similar to the type of stuff we get, though I don't think we've ever had any claims about the illuminati :) We did, however, have one guy who reported our abuse desk response to us as abuse (try to make sense of that sentence!) Regards Michele
Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection ICANN Accredited Registrar http://www.blacknight.com/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://mneylon.tel Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 US: 213-233-1612 UK: 0844 484 9361 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote:
Dear Michele,
Why would anyone "give feedback" if the "complaints" were just a massive waste of time to deal with?
Thats a question, that is something we can talk about and that we can discuss, exchange exstimations, whatever. I even suggested, that the RIPE system could analyze reports like spamcop does this, the end user gets also a webinterface to drop his spam into, and the correctness of the email will be checked and delivered to the right member. I even suggested, that we could hide the real members abuse address this way. So there will be only REAL spam abuse reports coming in from that part of the system, highly trustable. Will that not be valuable for every member too ? I gave my comment in another mail coming right now to you. I dont think, that it will cause that much more work for the member. Kind regards, Frank -- PHADE Software - PowerWeb http://www.powerweb.de Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast mailto:frank@powerweb.de Schinkelstrasse 17 fon: +49 33200 52920 14558 Nuthetal OT Rehbruecke, Germany fax: +49 33200 52921 ====================================================================== Public PGP Key available for frank@powerweb.de
James Davis wrote: Hello,
Frank Gadegast wrote:
Why that ?
A abuse complain is a abuse complain and belongs to this discussion. The question is, how the member has to handle it.
Give me details and ideas instead of "washing" it away ...
In the four years I've been sitting behind our rather busy abuse mailbox we've had questions like:
"Your customer published something I don't agree with. Take their website down now!"
"Someone broke into my office, please could you send the security staff around sometime today".
"My ex boyfriend is really annoying me, please tell him to stop e-mailing me".
"I was playing CS2 with a ping time of 15ms, now 14ms, helpz!"
"My internet activity is being traced by the Illuminati using your network, please help me. There's an albino monk at my door!"
None of these are cases of *network* abuse, even though the often end up in an abuse mailbox, and so outside the scope of the address.
You see, they are already bothering you. So lets create a system thats better. A standard report format could be better. The RIPE system could generate that by supplying an easy form with explanations and FAQs. The RIPE system could hide your abuse address from this stuff. There will be no need for any abuse contact in RIPE objects anymore. Lets drop my idea with the general IP-adress-like email address and let the system under http://abuse.ripe.net present a form instead, thats capable of analysing reports much better and filter the most stupid things out. And filter spam reports out, that dont belong to you ... And think about how valuable this system will be for all those, that do not have a good abuse team so far. I bet a lot of members are not publishing their abuse address, because they dont want to be enoyed with these cases you described and they will be happy to use this system instead. Kind regards, Frank
HTH,
James
- -- James Davis +44 1235 822 229 PGP: 0xD1622876 JANET CSIRT 0870 850 2340 (+44 1235 822 340) Lumen House, Library Avenue, Didcot, Oxfordshire, OX11 0SG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iD8DBQFLwvxShZi14NFiKHYRAkP4AJ9iNwv0HPag51osszhHLG47JNt3UgCdFqCe 4FE92KCYM8cBItNF68s5yAU= =iRwI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
JANET(UK) is a trading name of The JNT Association, a company limited by guarantee which is registered in England under No. 2881024 and whose Registered Office is at Lumen House, Library Avenue, Harwell Science and Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire. OX11 0SG
-- Mit freundlichen Gruessen, -- PHADE Software - PowerWeb http://www.powerweb.de Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast mailto:frank@powerweb.de Schinkelstrasse 17 fon: +49 33200 52920 14558 Nuthetal OT Rehbruecke, Germany fax: +49 33200 52921 ====================================================================== Public PGP Key available for frank@powerweb.de
Frank
A standard report format could be better.
Yes - I would support that
The RIPE system could generate that by supplying an easy form with explanations and FAQs. The RIPE system could hide your abuse address from this stuff.
There will be no need for any abuse contact in RIPE objects anymore.
Lets drop my idea with the general IP-adress-like email address and let the system under http://abuse.ripe.net present a form instead, thats capable of analysing reports much better and filter the most stupid things out. And filter spam reports out, that dont belong to you ...
Making people use a webform instead of email is counter-intuitive.
I bet a lot of members are not publishing their abuse address, because they dont want to be enoyed with these cases you described and they will be happy to use this system instead.
If you offer other services you probably will have to publish an abuse address somewhere else Also, just because you don't have an abuse address does not mean that you won't get abuse reports .. Regards Michele Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection ICANN Accredited Registrar http://www.blacknight.com/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://mneylon.tel Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 US: 213-233-1612 UK: 0844 484 9361 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
Dipl-Inform. Frank Gadegast wrote:
I think that everything IS spam, what somebody, who receives it, is bothered with, because he did no want it, he feel offended, did not ask for it or whatever personal reason.
Just to give you a very specific example that we received last week from AOL's Scomp. It was an email which a real estate management company sent to the landlord, informing them that the tenant had paid the rent, however they were asking if something could come over and check the cold water tap in the bathroom. The landlord just hit "Report Spam". By your definition, that is spam, as the landlord didn't want it. I'm sure everyone on this list who runs an abuse desk can share similar stories. I know we have plenty more examples. The problem here is user education. A lot of users see the "Report Spam" button as a "Delete And Don't Come Back" button, not understanding the difference between Spam and legitimate email which they don't like. Niall. -- Niall Donegan ---------------- http://www.blacknight.com Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A, Barrowside Business Park, Sleaty Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow, Ireland Company No.: 370845
Niall Donegan wrote: Hello Niall,
Dipl-Inform. Frank Gadegast wrote:
I think that everything IS spam, what somebody, who receives it, is bothered with, because he did no want it, he feel offended, did not ask for it or whatever personal reason.
Just to give you a very specific example that we received last week from AOL's Scomp. It was an email which a real estate management company sent to the landlord, informing them that the tenant had paid the rent, however they were asking if something could come over and check the cold water tap in the bathroom. The landlord just hit "Report Spam".
By your definition, that is spam, as the landlord didn't want it. I'm sure everyone on this list who runs an abuse desk can share similar stories. I know we have plenty more examples.
Use the backlink and click "is no spam".
The problem here is user education. A lot of users see the "Report Spam" button as a "Delete And Don't Come Back" button, not understanding the difference between Spam and legitimate email which they don't like.
Yes, thats why there is a need for the backlink, so that you, beeing more educated, can correct the situation easily. And remember: your abuse team has already to do this. Maybe your example brought your IP into Spamcop. You will have to react and select the right category already so that spamcop does not include you IP in the blacklist. Nothing else you should have to do with the RIPE system, just repair your credibility by following a link. Thats no different and not more work than before. But this would identify you as being a member taking care about the usage of the services you got from RIPE. Is that bad for you ? dont think so. And anybody thats doing nothing will be identified too ;o)
Niall.
Think about future developments: - maybe one day the RIPE system is that reliable, that other blacklists catch up on the feedback data collected at RIPE, so that your abuse team only has to comment the complaint once and your IP will be remove automatically from other lists, or your comment will be used there too then you will have LESS work ... Kind regards, Frank -- PHADE Software - PowerWeb http://www.powerweb.de Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast mailto:frank@powerweb.de Schinkelstrasse 17 fon: +49 33200 52920 14558 Nuthetal OT Rehbruecke, Germany fax: +49 33200 52921 ====================================================================== Public PGP Key available for frank@powerweb.de
Frank On 12 Apr 2010, at 11:50, Frank Gadegast wrote:
And remember: your abuse team has already to do this. Maybe your example brought your IP into Spamcop. You will have to react and select the right category already so that spamcop does not include you IP in the blacklist.
That's not entirely true First off with Spamcop you have an option for some types of reports "don't tell me about this again" (or something like that ) Secondly, if Spamcop lists an IP allocated to one of my customers who haven't done a particularly good job of keeping their IPs "clean", then why would I care if it's listed or not? Regards Michele Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection ICANN Accredited Registrar http://www.blacknight.com/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://mneylon.tel Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 US: 213-233-1612 UK: 0844 484 9361 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote:
Frank
Dear Michele,
On 12 Apr 2010, at 11:50, Frank Gadegast wrote:
And remember: your abuse team has already to do this. Maybe your example brought your IP into Spamcop. You will have to react and select the right category already so that spamcop does not include you IP in the blacklist.
That's not entirely true
First off with Spamcop you have an option for some types of reports "don't tell me about this again" (or something like that )
Surely that should not be possible. If we change RIPEs regulations, that any member is responsible for reports, it should not be an option to ignore it again, right ?
Secondly, if Spamcop lists an IP allocated to one of my customers who haven't done a particularly good job of keeping their IPs "clean", then why would I care if it's listed or not?
Not getting it. Because your customers are making a fearly enough good job, you dont take new incidents seriously ? Select "forwarded to the end user" in the backlink and send it to him again ... Kind regars, Frank
Regards
Michele
Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection ICANN Accredited Registrar http://www.blacknight.com/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://mneylon.tel Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 US: 213-233-1612 UK: 0844 484 9361 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
-- Mit freundlichen Gruessen, -- PHADE Software - PowerWeb http://www.powerweb.de Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast mailto:frank@powerweb.de Schinkelstrasse 17 fon: +49 33200 52920 14558 Nuthetal OT Rehbruecke, Germany fax: +49 33200 52921 ====================================================================== Public PGP Key available for frank@powerweb.de
On Monday 12 April 2010 12.58, Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote:
Frank
On 12 Apr 2010, at 11:50, Frank Gadegast wrote:
And remember: your abuse team has already to do this. Maybe your example brought your IP into Spamcop. You will have to react and select the right category already so that spamcop does not include you IP in the blacklist.
That's not entirely true
First off with Spamcop you have an option for some types of reports "don't tell me about this again" (or something like that )
Secondly, if Spamcop lists an IP allocated to one of my customers who haven't done a particularly good job of keeping their IPs "clean", then why would I care if it's listed or not?
Thats the issue in a nutshell. An ISP that does not care if one of his/her customers spams IS the problem. By ignoring the complaints more blacklists will block the entire ISP. Also, many spamming customers uses dynamic addresses, thus the single address that spamcop blocks will belong to an innocent bystander the next day ( blocking another address).
Regards
Michele
Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection ICANN Accredited Registrar http://www.blacknight.com/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://mneylon.tel Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 US: 213-233-1612 UK: 0844 484 9361 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
-- Peter Håkanson There's never money to do it right, but always money to do it again ... and again ... and again ... and again. ( Det är billigare att göra rätt. Det är dyrt att laga fel. )
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:50:49 +0200, Jørgen Hovland wrote:
It is of course more timeconsuming, but legal systems (should) give everyone a fair chance.
Legal systems have failed in this task and will continue to fail for the reasons described in the article. It is magical thinking to believe that legal systems can help.
Legal systems also pursue the party that is legally doing something wrong, not the ISP or any other third party that shouldn't be bothered in the first place (of course sometimes it is the ISP etc).
The analogy is incorrect. Airlines are the ones who keep drunk pilots out of cockpits, not legal systems. You hold the entity responsible for its behavior. To continue to comparison, an airline could tell one of his pilots he is to stop flying due to misconduct. It might separately be a crime which the state authorities might pursue or not. But the adverse impact should be prevented as a separate action
On 11 Apr 2010, at 16:52, Jeffrey Race wrote:
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:50:49 +0200, Jørgen Hovland wrote:
It is of course more timeconsuming, but legal systems (should) give everyone a fair chance.
Legal systems have failed in this task and will continue to fail for the reasons described in the article. It is magical thinking to believe that legal systems can help.
And a witch hunt is better? Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection ICANN Accredited Registrar http://www.blacknight.com/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://mneylon.tel Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 US: 213-233-1612 UK: 0844 484 9361 Locall: 1850 929 929 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 16:01:16 +0000, Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote:
And a witch hunt is better?
"witch-hunt also witch hunt N. An investigation carried out ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but actually used to harass and undermine those with differing views." The measures proposed in the RFC I am drafting do not relate to the content of the message traffic. The objective measures are clearly specified. Read the proposal please. It has nil to do with politics or dissenting views. Note that many network operators already enforce such rules. The issue is just to universalize this best practice.
participants (11)
-
Esa Laitinen -
Frank Gadegast -
Frank Gadegast -
Frank Gadegast -
James Davis -
Jeffrey Race -
Jørgen Hovland -
Michele Neylon :: Blacknight -
Niall Donegan -
peter h -
Thor Kottelin