Seeking Input on the Future of the Anti-Abuse Working Group
* Dear Anti-Abuse Working Group Members, As Co-Chairs, we have been carefully monitoring the discussions on the mailing list and are concerned about the current state of stagnation and lack of progress. After consideration and discussion among the Co-Chairs, we believe it is necessary to initiate a dialogue regarding the future direction of our working group. Some action is needed to revitalise our efforts. The Co-Chairs have discussed a number of options, both between ourselves and with the RIPE Chair Team. However, due to the lack of general engagement, and the circular conversations on the list, we see three viable options at this point:: 1. Re-charteringthe working group, possibly transitioning it into a Security Working Group to broaden our scope and address related concerns comprehensively. (The current charter can be found here: https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/ <https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/>) 2. It is possible we are simply the wrong Co-Chairs at the wrong time, so we can step-downand allow the working group to select new Co-Chairs. 3. Closing the working groupif consensus cannot be reached on a viable path forward. It may be that there are people in the Working Group who are eager to propose new policies, or embark on a project to systematically examine the abuse ecosystem, but over the last year or so, there has been no evidence this is the case. However, we firmly believe that the best course of action is to engage all members of the Anti-Abuse Working Group in an open and transparent discussion about the challenges we face and the opportunities for positive change. Your input and perspectives are invaluable in shaping the future of our community. Therefore, we are inviting you to participate actively in this crucial conversation. We encourage you to share your thoughts, suggestions, and concerns regarding the current state of the working group and your vision for its future direction. Your input will help inform our next steps and guide the evolution of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. We encourage you to share your feedback openly on the mailing list so that all members can participate in the conversation. We hope to discuss the status at RIPE88. Thank you for reading this far. We look forward to your active participation in shaping the future of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. Best regards, Brian, Tobias, Markus *
Hi chairs, all, I think this is a great working group. Periods of silence are physiological; for example, they may arise after a thorough discussion about a proposed point which is eventually found to be unfeasible. The idea to force every abuse-c to actually receive email messages and act on them suits that example. If there are security topics that the current charter doesn't cover, re-chartering is certainly a good idea. The chairs are great, especially Brian, and I see no reason to select new ones. Closing the working group would be a matter of regret and I hope it's not going to happen. Best Ale On Thu 21/Mar/2024 10:09:00 +0100 Markus de Brün wrote:
Dear Anti-Abuse Working Group Members,
As Co-Chairs, we have been carefully monitoring the discussions on the mailing list and are concerned about the current state of stagnation and lack of progress.
After consideration and discussion among the Co-Chairs, we believe it is necessary to initiate a dialogue regarding the future direction of our working group. Some action is needed to revitalise our efforts.
The Co-Chairs have discussed a number of options, both between ourselves and with the RIPE Chair Team. However, due to the lack of general engagement, and the circular conversations on the list, we see three viable options at this point::
1.
Re-charteringthe working group, possibly transitioning it into a Security Working Group to broaden our scope and address related concerns comprehensively. (The current charter can be found here: https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/ <https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/>)
2.
It is possible we are simply the wrong Co-Chairs at the wrong time, so we can step-downand allow the working group to select new Co-Chairs.
3.
Closing the working groupif consensus cannot be reached on a viable path forward.
It may be that there are people in the Working Group who are eager to propose new policies, or embark on a project to systematically examine the abuse ecosystem, but over the last year or so, there has been no evidence this is the case.
However, we firmly believe that the best course of action is to engage all members of the Anti-Abuse Working Group in an open and transparent discussion about the challenges we face and the opportunities for positive change. Your input and perspectives are invaluable in shaping the future of our community.
Therefore, we are inviting you to participate actively in this crucial conversation. We encourage you to share your thoughts, suggestions, and concerns regarding the current state of the working group and your vision for its future direction.
Your input will help inform our next steps and guide the evolution of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. We encourage you to share your feedback openly on the mailing list so that all members can participate in the conversation. We hope to discuss the status at RIPE88.
Thank you for reading this far. We look forward to your active participation in shaping the future of the Anti-Abuse Working Group.
Best regards,
Brian, Tobias, Markus
Hi everyone, My 2 cents: I'm clearly for option 1. Cheers, Carlos On Thu, 21 Mar 2024, Alessandro Vesely wrote:
Hi chairs, all,
I think this is a great working group. Periods of silence are physiological; for example, they may arise after a thorough discussion about a proposed point which is eventually found to be unfeasible. The idea to force every abuse-c to actually receive email messages and act on them suits that example.
If there are security topics that the current charter doesn't cover, re-chartering is certainly a good idea. The chairs are great, especially Brian, and I see no reason to select new ones. Closing the working group would be a matter of regret and I hope it's not going to happen.
Best Ale
On Thu 21/Mar/2024 10:09:00 +0100 Markus de Brün wrote:
Dear Anti-Abuse Working Group Members,
As Co-Chairs, we have been carefully monitoring the discussions on the mailing list and are concerned about the current state of stagnation and lack of progress.
After consideration and discussion among the Co-Chairs, we believe it is necessary to initiate a dialogue regarding the future direction of our working group. Some action is needed to revitalise our efforts.
The Co-Chairs have discussed a number of options, both between ourselves and with the RIPE Chair Team. However, due to the lack of general engagement, and the circular conversations on the list, we see three viable options at this point::
1.
Re-charteringthe working group, possibly transitioning it into a Security Working Group to broaden our scope and address related concerns comprehensively. (The current charter can be found here: https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/ <https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/>)
2.
It is possible we are simply the wrong Co-Chairs at the wrong time, so we can step-downand allow the working group to select new Co-Chairs.
3.
Closing the working groupif consensus cannot be reached on a viable path forward.
It may be that there are people in the Working Group who are eager to propose new policies, or embark on a project to systematically examine the abuse ecosystem, but over the last year or so, there has been no evidence this is the case.
However, we firmly believe that the best course of action is to engage all members of the Anti-Abuse Working Group in an open and transparent discussion about the challenges we face and the opportunities for positive change. Your input and perspectives are invaluable in shaping the future of our community.
Therefore, we are inviting you to participate actively in this crucial conversation. We encourage you to share your thoughts, suggestions, and concerns regarding the current state of the working group and your vision for its future direction.
Your input will help inform our next steps and guide the evolution of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. We encourage you to share your feedback openly on the mailing list so that all members can participate in the conversation. We hope to discuss the status at RIPE88.
Thank you for reading this far. We look forward to your active participation in shaping the future of the Anti-Abuse Working Group.
Best regards,
Brian, Tobias, Markus
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There really isn’t much possible regardless of the rechartering. There is one section of wg members opposed to taking action of almost any sort that is proposed by members of another section of the wg members. Tinkering with who the chairs are or what the charter is will not have any effect on this, you need a professional negotiation or conflict resolution person. --srs From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Carlos Friaças via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Date: Sunday, 24 March 2024 at 6:22 AM To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Seeking Input on the Future of the Anti-Abuse Working Group Hi everyone, My 2 cents: I'm clearly for option 1. Cheers, Carlos On Thu, 21 Mar 2024, Alessandro Vesely wrote:
Hi chairs, all,
I think this is a great working group. Periods of silence are physiological; for example, they may arise after a thorough discussion about a proposed point which is eventually found to be unfeasible. The idea to force every abuse-c to actually receive email messages and act on them suits that example.
If there are security topics that the current charter doesn't cover, re-chartering is certainly a good idea. The chairs are great, especially Brian, and I see no reason to select new ones. Closing the working group would be a matter of regret and I hope it's not going to happen.
Best Ale
On Thu 21/Mar/2024 10:09:00 +0100 Markus de Brün wrote:
Dear Anti-Abuse Working Group Members,
As Co-Chairs, we have been carefully monitoring the discussions on the mailing list and are concerned about the current state of stagnation and lack of progress.
After consideration and discussion among the Co-Chairs, we believe it is necessary to initiate a dialogue regarding the future direction of our working group. Some action is needed to revitalise our efforts.
The Co-Chairs have discussed a number of options, both between ourselves and with the RIPE Chair Team. However, due to the lack of general engagement, and the circular conversations on the list, we see three viable options at this point::
1.
Re-charteringthe working group, possibly transitioning it into a Security Working Group to broaden our scope and address related concerns comprehensively. (The current charter can be found here: https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/ <https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/>)
2.
It is possible we are simply the wrong Co-Chairs at the wrong time, so we can step-downand allow the working group to select new Co-Chairs.
3.
Closing the working groupif consensus cannot be reached on a viable path forward.
It may be that there are people in the Working Group who are eager to propose new policies, or embark on a project to systematically examine the abuse ecosystem, but over the last year or so, there has been no evidence this is the case.
However, we firmly believe that the best course of action is to engage all members of the Anti-Abuse Working Group in an open and transparent discussion about the challenges we face and the opportunities for positive change. Your input and perspectives are invaluable in shaping the future of our community.
Therefore, we are inviting you to participate actively in this crucial conversation. We encourage you to share your thoughts, suggestions, and concerns regarding the current state of the working group and your vision for its future direction.
Your input will help inform our next steps and guide the evolution of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. We encourage you to share your feedback openly on the mailing list so that all members can participate in the conversation. We hope to discuss the status at RIPE88.
Thank you for reading this far. We look forward to your active participation in shaping the future of the Anti-Abuse Working Group.
Best regards,
Brian, Tobias, Markus
--
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+1 Best Peter Am 24.03.24 um 01:52 schrieb Carlos Friaças via anti-abuse-wg:
Hi everyone,
My 2 cents:
I'm clearly for option 1.
Cheers, Carlos
On Thu, 21 Mar 2024, Alessandro Vesely wrote:
Hi chairs, all,
I think this is a great working group. Periods of silence are physiological; for example, they may arise after a thorough discussion about a proposed point which is eventually found to be unfeasible. The idea to force every abuse-c to actually receive email messages and act on them suits that example.
If there are security topics that the current charter doesn't cover, re-chartering is certainly a good idea. The chairs are great, especially Brian, and I see no reason to select new ones. Closing the working group would be a matter of regret and I hope it's not going to happen.
Best Ale
On Thu 21/Mar/2024 10:09:00 +0100 Markus de Brün wrote:
Dear Anti-Abuse Working Group Members,
As Co-Chairs, we have been carefully monitoring the discussions on the mailing list and are concerned about the current state of stagnation and lack of progress.
After consideration and discussion among the Co-Chairs, we believe it is necessary to initiate a dialogue regarding the future direction of our working group. Some action is needed to revitalise our efforts.
The Co-Chairs have discussed a number of options, both between ourselves and with the RIPE Chair Team. However, due to the lack of general engagement, and the circular conversations on the list, we see three viable options at this point::
1.
Re-charteringthe working group, possibly transitioning it into a Security Working Group to broaden our scope and address related concerns comprehensively. (The current charter can be found here: https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/ <https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/>)
2.
It is possible we are simply the wrong Co-Chairs at the wrong time, so we can step-downand allow the working group to select new Co-Chairs.
3.
Closing the working groupif consensus cannot be reached on a viable path forward.
It may be that there are people in the Working Group who are eager to propose new policies, or embark on a project to systematically examine the abuse ecosystem, but over the last year or so, there has been no evidence this is the case.
However, we firmly believe that the best course of action is to engage all members of the Anti-Abuse Working Group in an open and transparent discussion about the challenges we face and the opportunities for positive change. Your input and perspectives are invaluable in shaping the future of our community.
Therefore, we are inviting you to participate actively in this crucial conversation. We encourage you to share your thoughts, suggestions, and concerns regarding the current state of the working group and your vision for its future direction.
Your input will help inform our next steps and guide the evolution of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. We encourage you to share your feedback openly on the mailing list so that all members can participate in the conversation. We hope to discuss the status at RIPE88.
Thank you for reading this far. We look forward to your active participation in shaping the future of the Anti-Abuse Working Group.
Best regards,
Brian, Tobias, Markus
--
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-- Dr. Klaus-Peter Kossakowski kpk@pre-secure.de Managing Director Phone (+49) 0171 / 5767010 PRESECURE Consulting GmbH USt-IdNr.: DE 209907166 Sitz/Register: Hamburg AG Hamburg, HRB 133 548
Chairs, Thanks for opening the discussion. The fact the mailing list is currently relatively dormant is not necessarily a bad thing thing(tm). There is certainly value in keeping this working group, as one of the main issues that will pop-up end of 2024/2025 will be the future revision of the DSA with regards to 'streaming live piracy' (think of F1, Football, Olympics etc). The rights holders do want RIPE to do more, so there will be a need for a central venue to discuss this. Also abuse will forever be part of our wonderful ecosystem, so let's at least have/keep a proper venue to discuss this when the need arrises. As for the option below I miss "keep as is" :), also what issue(s) are now not covered and would be need a home @ a expanded 'security group' ? -- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221 On Thu, 21-03-2024 10h 11min, Markus de Brün <markus@mxdomain.de> wrote:
Dear Anti-Abuse Working Group Members,
As Co-Chairs, we have been carefully monitoring the discussions on the mailing list and are concerned about the current state of stagnation and lack of progress. After consideration and discussion among the Co-Chairs, we believe it is necessary to initiate a dialogue regarding the future direction of our working group. Some action is needed to revitalise our efforts.
The Co-Chairs have discussed a number of options, both between ourselves and with the RIPE Chair Team. However, due to the lack of general engagement, and the circular conversations on the list, we see three viable options at this point::
* Re-chartering the working group, possibly transitioning it into a Security Working Group to broaden our scope and address related concerns comprehensively. (The current charter can be found here: https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/) * It is possible we are simply the wrong Co-Chairs at the wrong time, so we can step-down and allow the working group to select new Co-Chairs. * Closing the working group if consensus cannot be reached on a viable path forward.
It may be that there are people in the Working Group who are eager to propose new policies, or embark on a project to systematically examine the abuse ecosystem, but over the last year or so, there has been no evidence this is the case.
However, we firmly believe that the best course of action is to engage all members of the Anti-Abuse Working Group in an open and transparent discussion about the challenges we face and the opportunities for positive change. Your input and perspectives are invaluable in shaping the future of our community.
Therefore, we are inviting you to participate actively in this crucial conversation. We encourage you to share your thoughts, suggestions, and concerns regarding the current state of the working group and your vision for its future direction.
Your input will help inform our next steps and guide the evolution of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. We encourage you to share your feedback openly on the mailing list so that all members can participate in the conversation. We hope to discuss the status at RIPE88.
Thank you for reading this far. We look forward to your active participation in shaping the future of the Anti-Abuse Working Group.
Best regards, Brian, Tobias, Markus
--
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg
I don't have an issue expanding the scope of the WG by e.g. rechartering as security wg. This would be probably be useful. In relation to lack of progress on WG policy items and repeated circular discussions, most of the these centered on one of two things 1. perceived lack of viability of some of the operational proposals and 2. using policies to mandate the RIPE NCC to enforce specific behaviour on the part of number resource registrants. Rather than spending more effort on things that we can't agree on, it might be better to focus on things that we can, or at least have a chance of agreeing on? For example common standards for security, operational recommendations, etc. Nick
Markus de Brün <mailto:markus@mxdomain.de> 21 March 2024 at 09:09 *
Dear Anti-Abuse Working Group Members,
As Co-Chairs, we have been carefully monitoring the discussions on the mailing list and are concerned about the current state of stagnation and lack of progress.
After consideration and discussion among the Co-Chairs, we believe it is necessary to initiate a dialogue regarding the future direction of our working group. Some action is needed to revitalise our efforts.
The Co-Chairs have discussed a number of options, both between ourselves and with the RIPE Chair Team. However, due to the lack of general engagement, and the circular conversations on the list, we see three viable options at this point::
1.
Re-charteringthe working group, possibly transitioning it into a Security Working Group to broaden our scope and address related concerns comprehensively. (The current charter can be found here: https://www.ripe.net/community/wg/active-wg/anti-abuse/)
2.
It is possible we are simply the wrong Co-Chairs at the wrong time, so we can step-downand allow the working group to select new Co-Chairs.
3.
Closing the working groupif consensus cannot be reached on a viable path forward.
It may be that there are people in the Working Group who are eager to propose new policies, or embark on a project to systematically examine the abuse ecosystem, but over the last year or so, there has been no evidence this is the case.
However, we firmly believe that the best course of action is to engage all members of the Anti-Abuse Working Group in an open and transparent discussion about the challenges we face and the opportunities for positive change. Your input and perspectives are invaluable in shaping the future of our community.
Therefore, we are inviting you to participate actively in this crucial conversation. We encourage you to share your thoughts, suggestions, and concerns regarding the current state of the working group and your vision for its future direction.
Your input will help inform our next steps and guide the evolution of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. We encourage you to share your feedback openly on the mailing list so that all members can participate in the conversation. We hope to discuss the status at RIPE88.
Thank you for reading this far. We look forward to your active participation in shaping the future of the Anti-Abuse Working Group.
Best regards,
Brian, Tobias, Markus
*
Markus There should be a simple “continue as now” option, though I do appreciate that opening a discussion on the WG’s future could be useful Expanding the group’s scope – okay, but to what? And to what end? Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours.
Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone, the Co-Chairs are taking it all on board! In the meantime, if anyone else has any input, we would love to hear it, especially from those who don't engage very often with the WG! Thank you, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network North Dock Two, 93-94 North Wall Quay, Dublin 1, D01 V8Y6 +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 ________________________________ From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Michele Neylon - Blacknight via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Sent: Monday 25 March 2024 17:26 To: Markus de Brün <markus@mxdomain.de>; anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Seeking Input on the Future of the Anti-Abuse Working Group CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the organisation. Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. Markus There should be a simple “continue as now” option, though I do appreciate that opening a discussion on the WG’s future could be useful Expanding the group’s scope – okay, but to what? And to what end? Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours.
re-chartering and widen the the scope is IMHO a good idea, although the current charter allows also non-email abuse to be in scope of the WG. This might include a renaming (Network Security WG? Internet Security WG?) please do not close the WG! also: I am happy with the current chairs. best regards Wolfgang
On 3. Apr 2024, at 11:27, Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> wrote:
In the meantime, if anyone else has any input, we would love to hear it, especially from those who don't engage very often with the WG!
-- Wolfgang Tremmel Phone +49 69 1730902 0 | wolfgang.tremmel@de-cix.net Executive Directors: Ivaylo Ivanov and Sebastian Seifert | Trade Registry: AG Cologne, HRB 51135 DE-CIX Management GmbH | Lindleystrasse 12 | 60314 Frankfurt am Main | Germany | www.de-cix.net
A hearty +1 to the points that Wolfgang makes! Chris On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 11:35 AM Wolfgang Tremmel via anti-abuse-wg < anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
re-chartering and widen the the scope is IMHO a good idea, although the current charter allows also non-email abuse to be in scope of the WG. This might include a renaming (Network Security WG? Internet Security WG?)
please do not close the WG! also: I am happy with the current chairs.
best regards Wolfgang
On 3. Apr 2024, at 11:27, Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> wrote:
In the meantime, if anyone else has any input, we would love to hear it, especially from those who don't engage very often with the WG!
-- Wolfgang Tremmel
Phone +49 69 1730902 0 | wolfgang.tremmel@de-cix.net Executive Directors: Ivaylo Ivanov and Sebastian Seifert | Trade Registry: AG Cologne, HRB 51135 DE-CIX Management GmbH | Lindleystrasse 12 | 60314 Frankfurt am Main | Germany | www.de-cix.net
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participants (11)
-
Alessandro Vesely -
Alex de Joode -
Brian Nisbet -
Carlos Friaças -
Chris Buckridge -
Klaus-Peter Kossakowski -
Markus de Brün -
Michele Neylon - Blacknight -
Nick Hilliard -
Suresh Ramasubramanian -
Wolfgang Tremmel