Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Appeal against the Anti-Abuse WG Co-chairs decisions on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of “abuse-mailbox”)
Hi Mirjam, See my responses below, in-line as many clarifications are clearly required, not just because this appeal, but because there is a misjudgment of the PDP itself. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 26/10/20 9:07, "Mirjam Kuehne" <mir@zu-hause.nl> escribió: Dear Jordi, Regarding the appeal you submitted on 5 October to the RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group mailing list, I would like to inform you about the decision of the RIPE Working Group Chairs Collective (according to the procedure as defined in ripe-710). [Jordi] I don't think the PDP has been followed in full for this appeal. For example, there was not announcement of the publication of the appeal in the web site. The WG Chairs Collective (WGCC) decided to uphold the decision of the Co-Chairs of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. Please find below their detailed response. Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE Chair ======== Summary ======= The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox"). If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal. [Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it. Scope ===== The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus. The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration. The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal. [Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify? Discussion ========== The appeal submitted includes several points that the WGCC found important to consider. These are discussed here. Points outside of the scope of the appeal process are omitted. RIPE NCC Impact Analysis ------------------------ The appeal will not review the accuracy of the RIPE NCC impact analysis. The WGCC defers to the expertise of the RIPE NCC staff who performed the analysis and the members of the Anti-Abuse WG who received the analysis. Further, an impact analysis is information intended to be helpful to decide whether to adopt a policy. The RIPE community is free to assign whatever weight it wishes. [Jordi] However, according to this, the co-chairs should also consider that the justification provided by the author against the objections is clearly demonstrating that the analysis impact is wrong in certain aspects, so those objections can't be accepted as valid. Discussion During the Review Phase ---------------------------------- The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way. [Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it. Timing of Consensus Declaration ------------------------------- Jordi mentions several possible changes to the policy proposal which may have led to consensus. He suggests that the declaration of consensus was made too soon. We recognize that this is a bit of an odd time, due to COVID-19. This has removed one of our valuable tools, the face-to-face meetings. The already-tricky job of the working group chairs in the PDP has been made harder. We rely on the chairs of the WG involved to decide whether or not a proposal is likely to ever reach consensus. There are no guidelines given for this decision. We find that the Anti-Abuse WG chairs were reasonable in the timing of declaring that there is no consensus. Specific Points in Conclusion ----------------------------- The conclusion states: 1. It is not acceptable to declare lack of consensus and at the same time recognize that there was “some clear support for the policy during the Discussion Phase”. This is not true. Having support for a policy does not _necessarily_ mean there is consensus. [Jordi] Exactly the same that declaring no-consensus based on justifications that have been refuted by the author, is not acceptable. 2. It is not acceptable to, due to the lack of messages in the Review Phase, instead of extending it, considering the summer vacations period, declare lack of consensus. We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in not extending the Review Phase. [Jordi] Based on what? Because this is even clearly against the text of the co-chairs decision. You also are recognizing across the text that the circumstances during the Covid are special, so how come then it should be acceptable not to extend the review phase considering the lack of responses, and the summer period in addition to the Covid itself? 3. It is not acceptable to accept repeated objections as valid when have been already refuted in a previous phase. The consensus declaration should defer to the community and what they consider valid. It appears to have done so in this case. [Jordi] Once more, lack of consensus can't be determined based on objections which are invalid as they have been reasonably refuted by the author and even other community members. 4. It is not acceptable to, considering the PDP (“The PDP is designed so that compromises can be made and genuine consensus achieved”), subjectively decide that “regardless of possible edits, reaching consensus in the short or medium term”, when there are possible ways to address the objections, which have anyway already being addressed. We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in declaring a lack of consensus. [Jordi] This is unacceptable. If the discussion shows that changes to the proposal can bring a new version which may achieve consensus, then it should be allowed. We know that different proposals have taken different time and different number of versions to achieve consensus, so such decision about if a proposal can reach or not consensus, can't be based on a subjective decision. New Policy Proposal ------------------- In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time. There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in. We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04. [Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal? Working Group Chairs Excluded ============================== The working group chairs of the Anti-Abuse working group were not part of the discussions regarding the appeal. A number of other working group chairs recused themselves from the appeal. These were: * Erik Bais * Gert Doering * Denis Walker In addition, Mirjam Kühne and Niall O'Reilly recused themselves from discussion and writing of the appeal. Recommendation to All RIPE WG Chairs ==================================== We recommend that all RIPE WG Chairs provide extra help for all policy proposals while we are struggling to deal with lack of face-to-face contact. The form of this help will vary depending on the proposal. The rest of the WGCC is available to discuss any topics related to this if any WG chairs want additional feedback or ideas. This advice does not strictly fall within the scope of the appeal, but the appeal brought the issue to the attention of the WGCC. We consider it important to mention here. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
There is also another point that I will like to rise and I just noticed, and this is very relevant not just because this appeal, but because the appeal process itself. 3 co-chairs have recused themselves. Is that meaning that all the discussion has been done in a different mailing list apart from the WGCC ? This is an extremely important point for the neutrality of the process. There were other WG co-chairs that, during the proposal discussion, expressed their inputs on this proposal (never mind was in favor, against or neutral). It should be expected that also those co-chairs didn't participate in the appeal. I also expected that the co-chairs of the anti-abuse WG should have taken the same self-recuse position, in order to show a real neutrality/impartiality in the process. All this is clearly showing a lack of impartial appeal process. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 26/10/20 9:40, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> escribió: Hi Mirjam, See my responses below, in-line as many clarifications are clearly required, not just because this appeal, but because there is a misjudgment of the PDP itself. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 26/10/20 9:07, "Mirjam Kuehne" <mir@zu-hause.nl> escribió: Dear Jordi, Regarding the appeal you submitted on 5 October to the RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group mailing list, I would like to inform you about the decision of the RIPE Working Group Chairs Collective (according to the procedure as defined in ripe-710). [Jordi] I don't think the PDP has been followed in full for this appeal. For example, there was not announcement of the publication of the appeal in the web site. The WG Chairs Collective (WGCC) decided to uphold the decision of the Co-Chairs of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. Please find below their detailed response. Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE Chair ======== Summary ======= The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox"). If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal. [Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it. Scope ===== The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus. The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration. The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal. [Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify? Discussion ========== The appeal submitted includes several points that the WGCC found important to consider. These are discussed here. Points outside of the scope of the appeal process are omitted. RIPE NCC Impact Analysis ------------------------ The appeal will not review the accuracy of the RIPE NCC impact analysis. The WGCC defers to the expertise of the RIPE NCC staff who performed the analysis and the members of the Anti-Abuse WG who received the analysis. Further, an impact analysis is information intended to be helpful to decide whether to adopt a policy. The RIPE community is free to assign whatever weight it wishes. [Jordi] However, according to this, the co-chairs should also consider that the justification provided by the author against the objections is clearly demonstrating that the analysis impact is wrong in certain aspects, so those objections can't be accepted as valid. Discussion During the Review Phase ---------------------------------- The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way. [Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it. Timing of Consensus Declaration ------------------------------- Jordi mentions several possible changes to the policy proposal which may have led to consensus. He suggests that the declaration of consensus was made too soon. We recognize that this is a bit of an odd time, due to COVID-19. This has removed one of our valuable tools, the face-to-face meetings. The already-tricky job of the working group chairs in the PDP has been made harder. We rely on the chairs of the WG involved to decide whether or not a proposal is likely to ever reach consensus. There are no guidelines given for this decision. We find that the Anti-Abuse WG chairs were reasonable in the timing of declaring that there is no consensus. Specific Points in Conclusion ----------------------------- The conclusion states: 1. It is not acceptable to declare lack of consensus and at the same time recognize that there was “some clear support for the policy during the Discussion Phase”. This is not true. Having support for a policy does not _necessarily_ mean there is consensus. [Jordi] Exactly the same that declaring no-consensus based on justifications that have been refuted by the author, is not acceptable. 2. It is not acceptable to, due to the lack of messages in the Review Phase, instead of extending it, considering the summer vacations period, declare lack of consensus. We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in not extending the Review Phase. [Jordi] Based on what? Because this is even clearly against the text of the co-chairs decision. You also are recognizing across the text that the circumstances during the Covid are special, so how come then it should be acceptable not to extend the review phase considering the lack of responses, and the summer period in addition to the Covid itself? 3. It is not acceptable to accept repeated objections as valid when have been already refuted in a previous phase. The consensus declaration should defer to the community and what they consider valid. It appears to have done so in this case. [Jordi] Once more, lack of consensus can't be determined based on objections which are invalid as they have been reasonably refuted by the author and even other community members. 4. It is not acceptable to, considering the PDP (“The PDP is designed so that compromises can be made and genuine consensus achieved”), subjectively decide that “regardless of possible edits, reaching consensus in the short or medium term”, when there are possible ways to address the objections, which have anyway already being addressed. We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in declaring a lack of consensus. [Jordi] This is unacceptable. If the discussion shows that changes to the proposal can bring a new version which may achieve consensus, then it should be allowed. We know that different proposals have taken different time and different number of versions to achieve consensus, so such decision about if a proposal can reach or not consensus, can't be based on a subjective decision. New Policy Proposal ------------------- In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time. There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in. We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04. [Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal? Working Group Chairs Excluded ============================== The working group chairs of the Anti-Abuse working group were not part of the discussions regarding the appeal. A number of other working group chairs recused themselves from the appeal. These were: * Erik Bais * Gert Doering * Denis Walker In addition, Mirjam Kühne and Niall O'Reilly recused themselves from discussion and writing of the appeal. Recommendation to All RIPE WG Chairs ==================================== We recommend that all RIPE WG Chairs provide extra help for all policy proposals while we are struggling to deal with lack of face-to-face contact. The form of this help will vary depending on the proposal. The rest of the WGCC is available to discuss any topics related to this if any WG chairs want additional feedback or ideas. This advice does not strictly fall within the scope of the appeal, but the appeal brought the issue to the attention of the WGCC. We consider it important to mention here. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Dear Jordi, The WGCC task, as defined in Section 4 of the PDP, is it to determine “whether to uphold or reject appeals”. In addition to that, in this first occurrence of an appeal being submitted, they chose to provide an extended explanation to you and the community, which is strictly speaking not necessary and is not part of the appeals process. However, I would like to convey here below the answers to your requests for clarification about the WGCC appeal outcome communication. I suggest we close this appeal, unless you decide to escalate to the RIPE Chair within the next two weeks. Should you have any more question, please contact me directly and I will be glad to assist. Kind regards, Angela Dall'Ara RIPE NCC Policy Officer Summary ======= The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox"). If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal. [Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it. [Answer]: It basically says that you or anyone else may decide to submit a new proposal and that it has been recognised that these are unusual times due to COVID-19. Scope ===== The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus. The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration. The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal. [Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify? [Answer]: During an appeal, the WGCC determine whether the process has been followed or not. They do not need to review content of the discussion related to the proposal. Discussion During the Review Phase ---------------------------------- The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way. [Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it. [Answer]: Exactly. And the PDP does not require the WG Chairs to do anything during the Review Phase. The explicit invite to re-state opinions was an extra service. New Policy Proposal ------------------- In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time. There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in. We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04. [Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal? [Answer]: It means it is up to you (or anyone else) to consider submitting a NEW proposal. And it is up to the WG chairs of the respective WG to accept such a new proposal or not. Appeal discussion ----------------- [Jordi] 3 co-chairs have recused themselves. Is that meaning that all the discussion has been done in a different mailing list apart from the WGCC ? [Answer]: The discussion has been done on Zoom meetings, not on the WGCC mailing list. On 26/10/2020 09:50, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg wrote:
There is also another point that I will like to rise and I just noticed, and this is very relevant not just because this appeal, but because the appeal process itself.
3 co-chairs have recused themselves. Is that meaning that all the discussion has been done in a different mailing list apart from the WGCC ? This is an extremely important point for the neutrality of the process.
There were other WG co-chairs that, during the proposal discussion, expressed their inputs on this proposal (never mind was in favor, against or neutral). It should be expected that also those co-chairs didn't participate in the appeal.
I also expected that the co-chairs of the anti-abuse WG should have taken the same self-recuse position, in order to show a real neutrality/impartiality in the process.
All this is clearly showing a lack of impartial appeal process.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
El 26/10/20 9:40, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> escribió:
Hi Mirjam,
See my responses below, in-line as many clarifications are clearly required, not just because this appeal, but because there is a misjudgment of the PDP itself.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
El 26/10/20 9:07, "Mirjam Kuehne" <mir@zu-hause.nl> escribió:
Dear Jordi,
Regarding the appeal you submitted on 5 October to the RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group mailing list, I would like to inform you about the decision of the RIPE Working Group Chairs Collective (according to the procedure as defined in ripe-710).
[Jordi] I don't think the PDP has been followed in full for this appeal. For example, there was not announcement of the publication of the appeal in the web site.
The WG Chairs Collective (WGCC) decided to uphold the decision of the Co-Chairs of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. Please find below their detailed response.
Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE Chair ========
Summary =======
The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox").
If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal.
[Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it.
Scope =====
The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus.
The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration.
The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal.
[Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify?
Discussion ==========
The appeal submitted includes several points that the WGCC found important to consider. These are discussed here. Points outside of the scope of the appeal process are omitted.
RIPE NCC Impact Analysis ------------------------
The appeal will not review the accuracy of the RIPE NCC impact analysis. The WGCC defers to the expertise of the RIPE NCC staff who performed the analysis and the members of the Anti-Abuse WG who received the analysis.
Further, an impact analysis is information intended to be helpful to decide whether to adopt a policy. The RIPE community is free to assign whatever weight it wishes.
[Jordi] However, according to this, the co-chairs should also consider that the justification provided by the author against the objections is clearly demonstrating that the analysis impact is wrong in certain aspects, so those objections can't be accepted as valid.
Discussion During the Review Phase ----------------------------------
The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way.
[Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it.
Timing of Consensus Declaration -------------------------------
Jordi mentions several possible changes to the policy proposal which may have led to consensus. He suggests that the declaration of consensus was made too soon.
We recognize that this is a bit of an odd time, due to COVID-19. This has removed one of our valuable tools, the face-to-face meetings. The already-tricky job of the working group chairs in the PDP has been made harder.
We rely on the chairs of the WG involved to decide whether or not a proposal is likely to ever reach consensus. There are no guidelines given for this decision.
We find that the Anti-Abuse WG chairs were reasonable in the timing of declaring that there is no consensus.
Specific Points in Conclusion -----------------------------
The conclusion states:
1. It is not acceptable to declare lack of consensus and at the same time recognize that there was “some clear support for the policy during the Discussion Phase”.
This is not true. Having support for a policy does not _necessarily_ mean there is consensus.
[Jordi] Exactly the same that declaring no-consensus based on justifications that have been refuted by the author, is not acceptable.
2. It is not acceptable to, due to the lack of messages in the Review Phase, instead of extending it, considering the summer vacations period, declare lack of consensus.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in not extending the Review Phase.
[Jordi] Based on what? Because this is even clearly against the text of the co-chairs decision. You also are recognizing across the text that the circumstances during the Covid are special, so how come then it should be acceptable not to extend the review phase considering the lack of responses, and the summer period in addition to the Covid itself?
3. It is not acceptable to accept repeated objections as valid when have been already refuted in a previous phase.
The consensus declaration should defer to the community and what they consider valid. It appears to have done so in this case.
[Jordi] Once more, lack of consensus can't be determined based on objections which are invalid as they have been reasonably refuted by the author and even other community members.
4. It is not acceptable to, considering the PDP (“The PDP is designed so that compromises can be made and genuine consensus achieved”), subjectively decide that “regardless of possible edits, reaching consensus in the short or medium term”, when there are possible ways to address the objections, which have anyway already being addressed.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in declaring a lack of consensus.
[Jordi] This is unacceptable. If the discussion shows that changes to the proposal can bring a new version which may achieve consensus, then it should be allowed. We know that different proposals have taken different time and different number of versions to achieve consensus, so such decision about if a proposal can reach or not consensus, can't be based on a subjective decision.
New Policy Proposal -------------------
In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time.
There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in.
We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04.
[Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal?
Working Group Chairs Excluded ==============================
The working group chairs of the Anti-Abuse working group were not part of the discussions regarding the appeal.
A number of other working group chairs recused themselves from the appeal. These were:
* Erik Bais * Gert Doering * Denis Walker
In addition, Mirjam Kühne and Niall O'Reilly recused themselves from discussion and writing of the appeal.
Recommendation to All RIPE WG Chairs ====================================
We recommend that all RIPE WG Chairs provide extra help for all policy proposals while we are struggling to deal with lack of face-to-face contact. The form of this help will vary depending on the proposal. The rest of the WGCC is available to discuss any topics related to this if any WG chairs want additional feedback or ideas.
This advice does not strictly fall within the scope of the appeal, but the appeal brought the issue to the attention of the WGCC. We consider it important to mention here.
********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Is it possible to move a motion to rename this working group from Anti Abuse WG to "The promotion of abuse working group"? Because this entire working group is a farce. On 12/11/2020 11:31 pm, Angela Dall'Ara wrote:
Dear Jordi,
The WGCC task, as defined in Section 4 of the PDP, is it to determine “whether to uphold or reject appeals”. In addition to that, in this first occurrence of an appeal being submitted, they chose to provide an extended explanation to you and the community, which is strictly speaking not necessary and is not part of the appeals process.
However, I would like to convey here below the answers to your requests for clarification about the WGCC appeal outcome communication.
I suggest we close this appeal, unless you decide to escalate to the RIPE Chair within the next two weeks. Should you have any more question, please contact me directly and I will be glad to assist.
Kind regards,
Angela Dall'Ara RIPE NCC Policy Officer
Summary =======
The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox").
If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal.
[Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it.
[Answer]: It basically says that you or anyone else may decide to submit a new proposal and that it has been recognised that these are unusual times due to COVID-19.
Scope =====
The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus.
The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration.
The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal.
[Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify?
[Answer]: During an appeal, the WGCC determine whether the process has been followed or not. They do not need to review content of the discussion related to the proposal.
Discussion During the Review Phase ----------------------------------
The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way.
[Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it.
[Answer]: Exactly. And the PDP does not require the WG Chairs to do anything during the Review Phase. The explicit invite to re-state opinions was an extra service.
New Policy Proposal -------------------
In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time.
There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in.
We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04.
[Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal?
[Answer]: It means it is up to you (or anyone else) to consider submitting a NEW proposal. And it is up to the WG chairs of the respective WG to accept such a new proposal or not.
Appeal discussion -----------------
[Jordi] 3 co-chairs have recused themselves. Is that meaning that all the discussion has been done in a different mailing list apart from the WGCC ?
[Answer]: The discussion has been done on Zoom meetings, not on the WGCC mailing list.
On 26/10/2020 09:50, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg wrote:
There is also another point that I will like to rise and I just noticed, and this is very relevant not just because this appeal, but because the appeal process itself.
3 co-chairs have recused themselves. Is that meaning that all the discussion has been done in a different mailing list apart from the WGCC ? This is an extremely important point for the neutrality of the process.
There were other WG co-chairs that, during the proposal discussion, expressed their inputs on this proposal (never mind was in favor, against or neutral). It should be expected that also those co-chairs didn't participate in the appeal.
I also expected that the co-chairs of the anti-abuse WG should have taken the same self-recuse position, in order to show a real neutrality/impartiality in the process.
All this is clearly showing a lack of impartial appeal process.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
El 26/10/20 9:40, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> escribió:
Hi Mirjam,
See my responses below, in-line as many clarifications are clearly required, not just because this appeal, but because there is a misjudgment of the PDP itself.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
El 26/10/20 9:07, "Mirjam Kuehne" <mir@zu-hause.nl> escribió:
Dear Jordi,
Regarding the appeal you submitted on 5 October to the RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group mailing list, I would like to inform you about the decision of the RIPE Working Group Chairs Collective (according to the procedure as defined in ripe-710).
[Jordi] I don't think the PDP has been followed in full for this appeal. For example, there was not announcement of the publication of the appeal in the web site.
The WG Chairs Collective (WGCC) decided to uphold the decision of the Co-Chairs of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. Please find below their detailed response.
Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE Chair ========
Summary =======
The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox").
If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal.
[Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it.
Scope =====
The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus.
The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration.
The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal.
[Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify?
Discussion ==========
The appeal submitted includes several points that the WGCC found important to consider. These are discussed here. Points outside of the scope of the appeal process are omitted.
RIPE NCC Impact Analysis ------------------------
The appeal will not review the accuracy of the RIPE NCC impact analysis. The WGCC defers to the expertise of the RIPE NCC staff who performed the analysis and the members of the Anti-Abuse WG who received the analysis.
Further, an impact analysis is information intended to be helpful to decide whether to adopt a policy. The RIPE community is free to assign whatever weight it wishes.
[Jordi] However, according to this, the co-chairs should also consider that the justification provided by the author against the objections is clearly demonstrating that the analysis impact is wrong in certain aspects, so those objections can't be accepted as valid.
Discussion During the Review Phase ----------------------------------
The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way.
[Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it.
Timing of Consensus Declaration -------------------------------
Jordi mentions several possible changes to the policy proposal which may have led to consensus. He suggests that the declaration of consensus was made too soon.
We recognize that this is a bit of an odd time, due to COVID-19. This has removed one of our valuable tools, the face-to-face meetings. The already-tricky job of the working group chairs in the PDP has been made harder.
We rely on the chairs of the WG involved to decide whether or not a proposal is likely to ever reach consensus. There are no guidelines given for this decision.
We find that the Anti-Abuse WG chairs were reasonable in the timing of declaring that there is no consensus.
Specific Points in Conclusion -----------------------------
The conclusion states:
1. It is not acceptable to declare lack of consensus and at the same time recognize that there was “some clear support for the policy during the Discussion Phase”.
This is not true. Having support for a policy does not _necessarily_ mean there is consensus.
[Jordi] Exactly the same that declaring no-consensus based on justifications that have been refuted by the author, is not acceptable.
2. It is not acceptable to, due to the lack of messages in the Review Phase, instead of extending it, considering the summer vacations period, declare lack of consensus.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in not extending the Review Phase.
[Jordi] Based on what? Because this is even clearly against the text of the co-chairs decision. You also are recognizing across the text that the circumstances during the Covid are special, so how come then it should be acceptable not to extend the review phase considering the lack of responses, and the summer period in addition to the Covid itself?
3. It is not acceptable to accept repeated objections as valid when have been already refuted in a previous phase.
The consensus declaration should defer to the community and what they consider valid. It appears to have done so in this case.
[Jordi] Once more, lack of consensus can't be determined based on objections which are invalid as they have been reasonably refuted by the author and even other community members.
4. It is not acceptable to, considering the PDP (“The PDP is designed so that compromises can be made and genuine consensus achieved”), subjectively decide that “regardless of possible edits, reaching consensus in the short or medium term”, when there are possible ways to address the objections, which have anyway already being addressed.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in declaring a lack of consensus.
[Jordi] This is unacceptable. If the discussion shows that changes to the proposal can bring a new version which may achieve consensus, then it should be allowed. We know that different proposals have taken different time and different number of versions to achieve consensus, so such decision about if a proposal can reach or not consensus, can't be based on a subjective decision.
New Policy Proposal -------------------
In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time.
There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in.
We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04.
[Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal?
Working Group Chairs Excluded ==============================
The working group chairs of the Anti-Abuse working group were not part of the discussions regarding the appeal.
A number of other working group chairs recused themselves from the appeal. These were:
* Erik Bais * Gert Doering * Denis Walker
In addition, Mirjam Kühne and Niall O'Reilly recused themselves from discussion and writing of the appeal.
Recommendation to All RIPE WG Chairs ====================================
We recommend that all RIPE WG Chairs provide extra help for all policy proposals while we are struggling to deal with lack of face-to-face contact. The form of this help will vary depending on the proposal. The rest of the WGCC is available to discuss any topics related to this if any WG chairs want additional feedback or ideas.
This advice does not strictly fall within the scope of the appeal, but the appeal brought the issue to the attention of the WGCC. We consider it important to mention here.
********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Good idea! Let's also use a generic name 'Spammer' for contributors to this list. </sarcasm>-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221 On Thu, 12-11-2020 13h 52min, PP <phishphucker@storey.ovh> wrote:
Is it possible to move a motion to rename this working group from Anti
Abuse WG to "The promotion of abuse working group"?
Because this entire working group is a farce.
On 12/11/2020 11:31 pm, Angela Dall'Ara wrote:
Dear Jordi,
The WGCC task, as defined in Section 4 of the PDP, is it to determine “whether to uphold or reject appeals”. In addition to that, in this first occurrence of an appeal being submitted, they chose to provide an extended explanation to you and the community, which is strictly speaking not necessary and is not part of the appeals process.
However, I would like to convey here below the answers to your requests for clarification about the WGCC appeal outcome communication.
I suggest we close this appeal, unless you decide to escalate to the RIPE Chair within the next two weeks. Should you have any more question, please contact me directly and I will be glad to assist.
Kind regards,
Angela Dall'Ara RIPE NCC Policy Officer
Summary =======
The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox").
If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal.
[Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it.
[Answer]: It basically says that you or anyone else may decide to submit a new proposal and that it has been recognised that these are unusual times due to COVID-19.
Scope =====
The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus.
The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration.
The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal.
[Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify?
[Answer]: During an appeal, the WGCC determine whether the process has been followed or not. They do not need to review content of the discussion related to the proposal.
Discussion During the Review Phase ----------------------------------
The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way.
[Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it.
[Answer]: Exactly. And the PDP does not require the WG Chairs to do anything during the Review Phase. The explicit invite to re-state opinions was an extra service.
New Policy Proposal -------------------
In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time.
There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in.
We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04.
[Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal?
[Answer]: It means it is up to you (or anyone else) to consider submitting a NEW proposal. And it is up to the WG chairs of the respective WG to accept such a new proposal or not.
Appeal discussion -----------------
[Jordi] 3 co-chairs have recused themselves. Is that meaning that all the discussion has been done in a different mailing list apart from the WGCC ?
[Answer]: The discussion has been done on Zoom meetings, not on the WGCC mailing list.
On 26/10/2020 09:50, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg wrote:
There is also another point that I will like to rise and I just noticed, and this is very relevant not just because this appeal, but because the appeal process itself.
3 co-chairs have recused themselves. Is that meaning that all the discussion has been done in a different mailing list apart from the WGCC ? This is an extremely important point for the neutrality of the process.
There were other WG co-chairs that, during the proposal discussion, expressed their inputs on this proposal (never mind was in favor, against or neutral). It should be expected that also those co-chairs didn't participate in the appeal.
I also expected that the co-chairs of the anti-abuse WG should have taken the same self-recuse position, in order to show a real neutrality/impartiality in the process.
All this is clearly showing a lack of impartial appeal process.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
El 26/10/20 9:40, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de " target="_blank">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> escribió:
Hi Mirjam,
See my responses below, in-line as many clarifications are clearly required, not just because this appeal, but because there is a misjudgment of the PDP itself.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
El 26/10/20 9:07, " target="_blank">"Mirjam Kuehne" <mir@zu-hause.nl> escribió:
Dear Jordi,
Regarding the appeal you submitted on 5 October to the RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group mailing list, I would like to inform you about the decision of the RIPE Working Group Chairs Collective (according to the procedure as defined in ripe-710).
[Jordi] I don't think the PDP has been followed in full for this appeal. For example, there was not announcement of the publication of the appeal in the web site.
The WG Chairs Collective (WGCC) decided to uphold the decision of the Co-Chairs of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. Please find below their detailed response.
Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE Chair ========
Summary =======
The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox").
If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal.
[Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it.
Scope =====
The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus.
The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration.
The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal.
[Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify?
Discussion ==========
The appeal submitted includes several points that the WGCC found important to consider. These are discussed here. Points outside of the scope of the appeal process are omitted.
RIPE NCC Impact Analysis ------------------------
The appeal will not review the accuracy of the RIPE NCC impact analysis. The WGCC defers to the expertise of the RIPE NCC staff who performed the analysis and the members of the Anti-Abuse WG who received the analysis.
Further, an impact analysis is information intended to be helpful to decide whether to adopt a policy. The RIPE community is free to assign whatever weight it wishes.
[Jordi] However, according to this, the co-chairs should also consider that the justification provided by the author against the objections is clearly demonstrating that the analysis impact is wrong in certain aspects, so those objections can't be accepted as valid.
Discussion During the Review Phase ----------------------------------
The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way.
[Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it.
Timing of Consensus Declaration -------------------------------
Jordi mentions several possible changes to the policy proposal which may have led to consensus. He suggests that the declaration of consensus was made too soon.
We recognize that this is a bit of an odd time, due to COVID-19. This has removed one of our valuable tools, the face-to-face meetings. The already-tricky job of the working group chairs in the PDP has been made harder.
We rely on the chairs of the WG involved to decide whether or not a proposal is likely to ever reach consensus. There are no guidelines given for this decision.
We find that the Anti-Abuse WG chairs were reasonable in the timing of declaring that there is no consensus.
Specific Points in Conclusion -----------------------------
The conclusion states:
1. It is not acceptable to declare lack of consensus and at the same time recognize that there was “some clear support for the policy during the Discussion Phase”.
This is not true. Having support for a policy does not _necessarily_ mean there is consensus.
[Jordi] Exactly the same that declaring no-consensus based on justifications that have been refuted by the author, is not acceptable.
2. It is not acceptable to, due to the lack of messages in the Review Phase, instead of extending it, considering the summer vacations period, declare lack of consensus.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in not extending the Review Phase.
[Jordi] Based on what? Because this is even clearly against the text of the co-chairs decision. You also are recognizing across the text that the circumstances during the Covid are special, so how come then it should be acceptable not to extend the review phase considering the lack of responses, and the summer period in addition to the Covid itself?
3. It is not acceptable to accept repeated objections as valid when have been already refuted in a previous phase.
The consensus declaration should defer to the community and what they consider valid. It appears to have done so in this case.
[Jordi] Once more, lack of consensus can't be determined based on objections which are invalid as they have been reasonably refuted by the author and even other community members.
4. It is not acceptable to, considering the PDP (“The PDP is designed so that compromises can be made and genuine consensus achieved”), subjectively decide that “regardless of possible edits, reaching consensus in the short or medium term”, when there are possible ways to address the objections, which have anyway already being addressed.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in declaring a lack of consensus.
[Jordi] This is unacceptable. If the discussion shows that changes to the proposal can bring a new version which may achieve consensus, then it should be allowed. We know that different proposals have taken different time and different number of versions to achieve consensus, so such decision about if a proposal can reach or not consensus, can't be based on a subjective decision.
New Policy Proposal -------------------
In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time.
There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in.
We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04.
[Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal?
Working Group Chairs Excluded ==============================
The working group chairs of the Anti-Abuse working group were not part of the discussions regarding the appeal.
A number of other working group chairs recused themselves from the appeal. These were:
* Erik Bais * Gert Doering * Denis Walker
In addition, Mirjam Kühne and Niall O'Reilly recused themselves from discussion and writing of the appeal.
Recommendation to All RIPE WG Chairs ====================================
We recommend that all RIPE WG Chairs provide extra help for all policy proposals while we are struggling to deal with lack of face-to-face contact. The form of this help will vary depending on the proposal. The rest of the WGCC is available to discuss any topics related to this if any WG chairs want additional feedback or ideas.
This advice does not strictly fall within the scope of the appeal, but the appeal brought the issue to the attention of the WGCC. We consider it important to mention here.
********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Hello Jordi, I would just like to comment on your first point. The appeal was published on the RIPE NCC website on the following links: https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-04 https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/archived-policy-proposals/archive-... We are currently working to update it by including the recent decision of the WGCC. Kind regards, -- Petrit Hasani Policy Officer RIPE NCC
On 26 Oct 2020, at 09:39, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Hi Mirjam,
See my responses below, in-line as many clarifications are clearly required, not just because this appeal, but because there is a misjudgment of the PDP itself.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
El 26/10/20 9:07, "Mirjam Kuehne" <mir@zu-hause.nl> escribió:
Dear Jordi,
Regarding the appeal you submitted on 5 October to the RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group mailing list, I would like to inform you about the decision of the RIPE Working Group Chairs Collective (according to the procedure as defined in ripe-710).
[Jordi] I don't think the PDP has been followed in full for this appeal. For example, there was not announcement of the publication of the appeal in the web site.
The WG Chairs Collective (WGCC) decided to uphold the decision of the Co-Chairs of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. Please find below their detailed response.
Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE Chair ========
Summary =======
The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox").
If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal.
[Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it.
Scope =====
The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus.
The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration.
The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal.
[Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify?
Discussion ==========
The appeal submitted includes several points that the WGCC found important to consider. These are discussed here. Points outside of the scope of the appeal process are omitted.
RIPE NCC Impact Analysis ------------------------
The appeal will not review the accuracy of the RIPE NCC impact analysis. The WGCC defers to the expertise of the RIPE NCC staff who performed the analysis and the members of the Anti-Abuse WG who received the analysis.
Further, an impact analysis is information intended to be helpful to decide whether to adopt a policy. The RIPE community is free to assign whatever weight it wishes.
[Jordi] However, according to this, the co-chairs should also consider that the justification provided by the author against the objections is clearly demonstrating that the analysis impact is wrong in certain aspects, so those objections can't be accepted as valid.
Discussion During the Review Phase ----------------------------------
The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way.
[Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it.
Timing of Consensus Declaration -------------------------------
Jordi mentions several possible changes to the policy proposal which may have led to consensus. He suggests that the declaration of consensus was made too soon.
We recognize that this is a bit of an odd time, due to COVID-19. This has removed one of our valuable tools, the face-to-face meetings. The already-tricky job of the working group chairs in the PDP has been made harder.
We rely on the chairs of the WG involved to decide whether or not a proposal is likely to ever reach consensus. There are no guidelines given for this decision.
We find that the Anti-Abuse WG chairs were reasonable in the timing of declaring that there is no consensus.
Specific Points in Conclusion -----------------------------
The conclusion states:
1. It is not acceptable to declare lack of consensus and at the same time recognize that there was “some clear support for the policy during the Discussion Phase”.
This is not true. Having support for a policy does not _necessarily_ mean there is consensus.
[Jordi] Exactly the same that declaring no-consensus based on justifications that have been refuted by the author, is not acceptable.
2. It is not acceptable to, due to the lack of messages in the Review Phase, instead of extending it, considering the summer vacations period, declare lack of consensus.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in not extending the Review Phase.
[Jordi] Based on what? Because this is even clearly against the text of the co-chairs decision. You also are recognizing across the text that the circumstances during the Covid are special, so how come then it should be acceptable not to extend the review phase considering the lack of responses, and the summer period in addition to the Covid itself?
3. It is not acceptable to accept repeated objections as valid when have been already refuted in a previous phase.
The consensus declaration should defer to the community and what they consider valid. It appears to have done so in this case.
[Jordi] Once more, lack of consensus can't be determined based on objections which are invalid as they have been reasonably refuted by the author and even other community members.
4. It is not acceptable to, considering the PDP (“The PDP is designed so that compromises can be made and genuine consensus achieved”), subjectively decide that “regardless of possible edits, reaching consensus in the short or medium term”, when there are possible ways to address the objections, which have anyway already being addressed.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in declaring a lack of consensus.
[Jordi] This is unacceptable. If the discussion shows that changes to the proposal can bring a new version which may achieve consensus, then it should be allowed. We know that different proposals have taken different time and different number of versions to achieve consensus, so such decision about if a proposal can reach or not consensus, can't be based on a subjective decision.
New Policy Proposal -------------------
In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time.
There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in.
We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04.
[Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal?
Working Group Chairs Excluded ==============================
The working group chairs of the Anti-Abuse working group were not part of the discussions regarding the appeal.
A number of other working group chairs recused themselves from the appeal. These were:
* Erik Bais * Gert Doering * Denis Walker
In addition, Mirjam Kühne and Niall O'Reilly recused themselves from discussion and writing of the appeal.
Recommendation to All RIPE WG Chairs ====================================
We recommend that all RIPE WG Chairs provide extra help for all policy proposals while we are struggling to deal with lack of face-to-face contact. The form of this help will vary depending on the proposal. The rest of the WGCC is available to discuss any topics related to this if any WG chairs want additional feedback or ideas.
This advice does not strictly fall within the scope of the appeal, but the appeal brought the issue to the attention of the WGCC. We consider it important to mention here.
********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Hi Petrit, I can see it *now* published, however, *last week* (on 20th according to my browser history), I was working in another policy proposal and looking at this web page, and the text related to the appeal was not there. Could you confirm when it was published and announced? I fully understand that this is the first time we have an appeal and a few days delay in the publication is fine, but in my opinion, it should have been published in a matter of days (not weeks). Furthermore, reading the PDP, the appropriate location on the RIPE web site is not in the proposal web page (may be a link there to the appropriate appeals web page), because otherwise, that means we are updating a web page without stating *when* it has been updated. There is not a "track of changes" of the web page. Definitively, we are missing in every web page or modification, a publication date, in order to be completely transparent. Saludos, Jordi @jordipalet El 26/10/20 9:52, "Petrit Hasani" <phasani@ripe.net> escribió: Hello Jordi, I would just like to comment on your first point. The appeal was published on the RIPE NCC website on the following links: https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-04 https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/archived-policy-proposals/archive-... We are currently working to update it by including the recent decision of the WGCC. Kind regards, -- Petrit Hasani Policy Officer RIPE NCC > On 26 Oct 2020, at 09:39, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote: > > Hi Mirjam, > > See my responses below, in-line as many clarifications are clearly required, not just because this appeal, but because there is a misjudgment of the PDP itself. > > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet > > > > El 26/10/20 9:07, "Mirjam Kuehne" <mir@zu-hause.nl> escribió: > > Dear Jordi, > > Regarding the appeal you submitted on 5 October to the RIPE Anti-Abuse > Working Group mailing list, I would like to inform you about the > decision of the RIPE Working Group Chairs Collective (according to the > procedure as defined in ripe-710). > > [Jordi] I don't think the PDP has been followed in full for this appeal. For example, there was not announcement of the publication of the appeal in the web site. > > The WG Chairs Collective (WGCC) decided to uphold the decision of the > Co-Chairs of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. Please find below their > detailed response. > > Kind regards, > Mirjam Kühne > RIPE Chair > ======== > > > Summary > ======= > > The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of > the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of > "abuse-mailbox"). > > If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve > consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual > time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 > pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy > proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt > any new proposal. > > [Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it. > > Scope > ===== > > The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the > working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or > lack of consensus. > > The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or > whether there was bias shown in the declaration. > > The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against > the proposal. > > [Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify? > > Discussion > ========== > > The appeal submitted includes several points that the WGCC found > important to consider. These are discussed here. Points outside of the > scope of the appeal process are omitted. > > > RIPE NCC Impact Analysis > ------------------------ > > The appeal will not review the accuracy of the RIPE NCC impact > analysis. The WGCC defers to the expertise of the RIPE NCC staff who > performed the analysis and the members of the Anti-Abuse WG who > received the analysis. > > Further, an impact analysis is information intended to be helpful to > decide whether to adopt a policy. The RIPE community is free to assign > whatever weight it wishes. > > [Jordi] However, according to this, the co-chairs should also consider that the justification provided by the author against the objections is clearly demonstrating that the analysis impact is wrong in certain aspects, so those objections can't be accepted as valid. > > Discussion During the Review Phase > ---------------------------------- > > The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail > moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that > the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future > this can be highlighted in some way. > > [Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it. > > > Timing of Consensus Declaration > ------------------------------- > > Jordi mentions several possible changes to the policy proposal which > may have led to consensus. He suggests that the declaration of > consensus was made too soon. > > We recognize that this is a bit of an odd time, due to COVID-19. This > has removed one of our valuable tools, the face-to-face meetings. The > already-tricky job of the working group chairs in the PDP has been > made harder. > > We rely on the chairs of the WG involved to decide whether or not a > proposal is likely to ever reach consensus. There are no guidelines > given for this decision. > > We find that the Anti-Abuse WG chairs were reasonable in the timing of > declaring that there is no consensus. > > > Specific Points in Conclusion > ----------------------------- > > The conclusion states: > > 1. It is not acceptable to declare lack of consensus and at the same > time recognize that there was “some clear support for the policy > during the Discussion Phase”. > > This is not true. Having support for a policy does not _necessarily_ > mean there is consensus. > > [Jordi] Exactly the same that declaring no-consensus based on justifications that have been refuted by the author, is not acceptable. > > 2. It is not acceptable to, due to the lack of messages in the Review > Phase, instead of extending it, considering the summer vacations > period, declare lack of consensus. > > We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in > not extending the Review Phase. > > [Jordi] Based on what? Because this is even clearly against the text of the co-chairs decision. You also are recognizing across the text that the circumstances during the Covid are special, so how come then it should be acceptable not to extend the review phase considering the lack of responses, and the summer period in addition to the Covid itself? > > 3. It is not acceptable to accept repeated objections as valid when > have been already refuted in a previous phase. > > The consensus declaration should defer to the community and what they > consider valid. It appears to have done so in this case. > > [Jordi] Once more, lack of consensus can't be determined based on objections which are invalid as they have been reasonably refuted by the author and even other community members. > > 4. It is not acceptable to, considering the PDP (“The PDP is designed > so that compromises can be made and genuine consensus achieved”), > subjectively decide that “regardless of possible edits, reaching > consensus in the short or medium term”, when there are possible > ways to address the objections, which have anyway already being > addressed. > > We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in > declaring a lack of consensus. > > > [Jordi] This is unacceptable. If the discussion shows that changes to the proposal can bring a new version which may achieve consensus, then it should be allowed. We know that different proposals have taken different time and different number of versions to achieve consensus, so such decision about if a proposal can reach or not consensus, can't be based on a subjective decision. > > > New Policy Proposal > ------------------- > > In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from > submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address > Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal > did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. > So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a > more difficult time. > > There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to > accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group > chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working > group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that > they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are > attempting to make policies in. > > We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else > should submit an updated version of 2019-04. > > [Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal? > > Working Group Chairs Excluded > ============================== > > The working group chairs of the Anti-Abuse working group were not part > of the discussions regarding the appeal. > > A number of other working group chairs recused themselves from the > appeal. These were: > > * Erik Bais > * Gert Doering > * Denis Walker > > In addition, Mirjam Kühne and Niall O'Reilly recused themselves from > discussion and writing of the appeal. > > > Recommendation to All RIPE WG Chairs > ==================================== > > We recommend that all RIPE WG Chairs provide extra help for all policy > proposals while we are struggling to deal with lack of face-to-face > contact. The form of this help will vary depending on the proposal. > The rest of the WGCC is available to discuss any topics related to > this if any WG chairs want additional feedback or ideas. > > This advice does not strictly fall within the scope of the appeal, but > the appeal brought the issue to the attention of the WGCC. We consider > it important to mention here. > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Hi Jordi, The appeal was published on the RIPE NCC web page on the 13th of October. The Policy Development Process in RIPE states: "The appeal will also be published by the RIPE NCC at appropriate locations on the RIPE web site.” The RIPE NCC does not currently have an appeals policy web page so the most appropriate locations we could find was the page of the policy proposal itself and the page of the archived proposals. We found these locations appropriate as the appeal is part of the PDP of this proposal. We feel that we have fulfilled the policy requirements with this publication however we will try to improve our processes. Thank you for your feedback regarding the modification/publication dates. -- Petrit Hasani Policy Officer RIPE NCC
On 26 Oct 2020, at 10:51, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:
Hi Petrit,
I can see it *now* published, however, *last week* (on 20th according to my browser history), I was working in another policy proposal and looking at this web page, and the text related to the appeal was not there.
Could you confirm when it was published and announced?
I fully understand that this is the first time we have an appeal and a few days delay in the publication is fine, but in my opinion, it should have been published in a matter of days (not weeks). Furthermore, reading the PDP, the appropriate location on the RIPE web site is not in the proposal web page (may be a link there to the appropriate appeals web page), because otherwise, that means we are updating a web page without stating *when* it has been updated. There is not a "track of changes" of the web page.
Definitively, we are missing in every web page or modification, a publication date, in order to be completely transparent.
Saludos, Jordi @jordipalet
El 26/10/20 9:52, "Petrit Hasani" <phasani@ripe.net> escribió:
Hello Jordi,
I would just like to comment on your first point.
The appeal was published on the RIPE NCC website on the following links:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-04
https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/archived-policy-proposals/archive-...
We are currently working to update it by including the recent decision of the WGCC.
Kind regards, -- Petrit Hasani Policy Officer RIPE NCC
On 26 Oct 2020, at 09:39, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Hi Mirjam,
See my responses below, in-line as many clarifications are clearly required, not just because this appeal, but because there is a misjudgment of the PDP itself.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
El 26/10/20 9:07, "Mirjam Kuehne" <mir@zu-hause.nl> escribió:
Dear Jordi,
Regarding the appeal you submitted on 5 October to the RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group mailing list, I would like to inform you about the decision of the RIPE Working Group Chairs Collective (according to the procedure as defined in ripe-710).
[Jordi] I don't think the PDP has been followed in full for this appeal. For example, there was not announcement of the publication of the appeal in the web site.
The WG Chairs Collective (WGCC) decided to uphold the decision of the Co-Chairs of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. Please find below their detailed response.
Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE Chair ========
Summary =======
The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox").
If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal.
[Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it.
Scope =====
The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus.
The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration.
The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal.
[Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify?
Discussion ==========
The appeal submitted includes several points that the WGCC found important to consider. These are discussed here. Points outside of the scope of the appeal process are omitted.
RIPE NCC Impact Analysis ------------------------
The appeal will not review the accuracy of the RIPE NCC impact analysis. The WGCC defers to the expertise of the RIPE NCC staff who performed the analysis and the members of the Anti-Abuse WG who received the analysis.
Further, an impact analysis is information intended to be helpful to decide whether to adopt a policy. The RIPE community is free to assign whatever weight it wishes.
[Jordi] However, according to this, the co-chairs should also consider that the justification provided by the author against the objections is clearly demonstrating that the analysis impact is wrong in certain aspects, so those objections can't be accepted as valid.
Discussion During the Review Phase ----------------------------------
The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way.
[Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it.
Timing of Consensus Declaration -------------------------------
Jordi mentions several possible changes to the policy proposal which may have led to consensus. He suggests that the declaration of consensus was made too soon.
We recognize that this is a bit of an odd time, due to COVID-19. This has removed one of our valuable tools, the face-to-face meetings. The already-tricky job of the working group chairs in the PDP has been made harder.
We rely on the chairs of the WG involved to decide whether or not a proposal is likely to ever reach consensus. There are no guidelines given for this decision.
We find that the Anti-Abuse WG chairs were reasonable in the timing of declaring that there is no consensus.
Specific Points in Conclusion -----------------------------
The conclusion states:
1. It is not acceptable to declare lack of consensus and at the same time recognize that there was “some clear support for the policy during the Discussion Phase”.
This is not true. Having support for a policy does not _necessarily_ mean there is consensus.
[Jordi] Exactly the same that declaring no-consensus based on justifications that have been refuted by the author, is not acceptable.
2. It is not acceptable to, due to the lack of messages in the Review Phase, instead of extending it, considering the summer vacations period, declare lack of consensus.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in not extending the Review Phase.
[Jordi] Based on what? Because this is even clearly against the text of the co-chairs decision. You also are recognizing across the text that the circumstances during the Covid are special, so how come then it should be acceptable not to extend the review phase considering the lack of responses, and the summer period in addition to the Covid itself?
3. It is not acceptable to accept repeated objections as valid when have been already refuted in a previous phase.
The consensus declaration should defer to the community and what they consider valid. It appears to have done so in this case.
[Jordi] Once more, lack of consensus can't be determined based on objections which are invalid as they have been reasonably refuted by the author and even other community members.
4. It is not acceptable to, considering the PDP (“The PDP is designed so that compromises can be made and genuine consensus achieved”), subjectively decide that “regardless of possible edits, reaching consensus in the short or medium term”, when there are possible ways to address the objections, which have anyway already being addressed.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in declaring a lack of consensus.
[Jordi] This is unacceptable. If the discussion shows that changes to the proposal can bring a new version which may achieve consensus, then it should be allowed. We know that different proposals have taken different time and different number of versions to achieve consensus, so such decision about if a proposal can reach or not consensus, can't be based on a subjective decision.
New Policy Proposal -------------------
In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time.
There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in.
We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04.
[Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal?
Working Group Chairs Excluded ==============================
The working group chairs of the Anti-Abuse working group were not part of the discussions regarding the appeal.
A number of other working group chairs recused themselves from the appeal. These were:
* Erik Bais * Gert Doering * Denis Walker
In addition, Mirjam Kühne and Niall O'Reilly recused themselves from discussion and writing of the appeal.
Recommendation to All RIPE WG Chairs ====================================
We recommend that all RIPE WG Chairs provide extra help for all policy proposals while we are struggling to deal with lack of face-to-face contact. The form of this help will vary depending on the proposal. The rest of the WGCC is available to discuss any topics related to this if any WG chairs want additional feedback or ideas.
This advice does not strictly fall within the scope of the appeal, but the appeal brought the issue to the attention of the WGCC. We consider it important to mention here.
********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Jordi et al, I have to comment RIPE NCC and WGCC (and those that recused themselves). The appeals process was used, the outcome reaffirmed the original decision. It's clear the proposal was fatally flawed. May I suggest we do not waist extra effort on this but accept the outcome and instead of looking back, regroup and look forward? Cheers, Alex-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221 On Mon, 26-10-2020 14h 43min, Petrit Hasani <phasani@ripe.net> wrote:
Hi Jordi,
The appeal was published on the RIPE NCC web page on the 13th of October.
The Policy Development Process in RIPE states: "The appeal will also be published by the RIPE NCC at appropriate locations on the RIPE web site.”
The RIPE NCC does not currently have an appeals policy web page so the most appropriate locations we could find was the page of the policy proposal itself and the page of the archived proposals. We found these locations appropriate as the appeal is part of the PDP of this proposal.
We feel that we have fulfilled the policy requirements with this publication however we will try to improve our processes.
Thank you for your feedback regarding the modification/publication dates.
-- Petrit Hasani Policy Officer RIPE NCC
On 26 Oct 2020, at 10:51, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ " target="_blank"><jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:
Hi Petrit,
I can see it *now* published, however, *last week* (on 20th according to my browser history), I was working in another policy proposal and looking at this web page, and the text related to the appeal was not there.
Could you confirm when it was published and announced?
I fully understand that this is the first time we have an appeal and a few days delay in the publication is fine, but in my opinion, it should have been published in a matter of days (not weeks). Furthermore, reading the PDP, the appropriate location on the RIPE web site is not in the proposal web page (may be a link there to the appropriate appeals web page), because otherwise, that means we are updating a web page without stating *when* it has been updated. There is not a "track of changes" of the web page.
Definitively, we are missing in every web page or modification, a publication date, in order to be completely transparent.
Saludos, Jordi @jordipalet
El 26/10/20 9:52, " target="_blank">"Petrit Hasani" <phasani@ripe.net> escribió:
Hello Jordi,
I would just like to comment on your first point.
The appeal was published on the RIPE NCC website on the following links:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-04
https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/archived-policy-proposals/archive-...
We are currently working to update it by including the recent decision of the WGCC.
Kind regards, -- Petrit Hasani Policy Officer RIPE NCC
On 26 Oct 2020, at 09:39, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg " target="_blank"><anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Hi Mirjam,
See my responses below, in-line as many clarifications are clearly required, not just because this appeal, but because there is a misjudgment of the PDP itself.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
El 26/10/20 9:07, " target="_blank">"Mirjam Kuehne" <mir@zu-hause.nl> escribió:
Dear Jordi,
Regarding the appeal you submitted on 5 October to the RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group mailing list, I would like to inform you about the decision of the RIPE Working Group Chairs Collective (according to the procedure as defined in ripe-710).
[Jordi] I don't think the PDP has been followed in full for this appeal. For example, there was not announcement of the publication of the appeal in the web site.
The WG Chairs Collective (WGCC) decided to uphold the decision of the Co-Chairs of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. Please find below their detailed response.
Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE Chair ========
Summary =======
The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox").
If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal.
[Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it.
Scope =====
The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus.
The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration.
The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal.
[Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify?
Discussion ==========
The appeal submitted includes several points that the WGCC found important to consider. These are discussed here. Points outside of the scope of the appeal process are omitted.
RIPE NCC Impact Analysis ------------------------
The appeal will not review the accuracy of the RIPE NCC impact analysis. The WGCC defers to the expertise of the RIPE NCC staff who performed the analysis and the members of the Anti-Abuse WG who received the analysis.
Further, an impact analysis is information intended to be helpful to decide whether to adopt a policy. The RIPE community is free to assign whatever weight it wishes.
[Jordi] However, according to this, the co-chairs should also consider that the justification provided by the author against the objections is clearly demonstrating that the analysis impact is wrong in certain aspects, so those objections can't be accepted as valid.
Discussion During the Review Phase ----------------------------------
The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way.
[Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it.
Timing of Consensus Declaration -------------------------------
Jordi mentions several possible changes to the policy proposal which may have led to consensus. He suggests that the declaration of consensus was made too soon.
We recognize that this is a bit of an odd time, due to COVID-19. This has removed one of our valuable tools, the face-to-face meetings. The already-tricky job of the working group chairs in the PDP has been made harder.
We rely on the chairs of the WG involved to decide whether or not a proposal is likely to ever reach consensus. There are no guidelines given for this decision.
We find that the Anti-Abuse WG chairs were reasonable in the timing of declaring that there is no consensus.
Specific Points in Conclusion -----------------------------
The conclusion states:
1. It is not acceptable to declare lack of consensus and at the same time recognize that there was “some clear support for the policy during the Discussion Phase”.
This is not true. Having support for a policy does not _necessarily_ mean there is consensus.
[Jordi] Exactly the same that declaring no-consensus based on justifications that have been refuted by the author, is not acceptable.
2. It is not acceptable to, due to the lack of messages in the Review Phase, instead of extending it, considering the summer vacations period, declare lack of consensus.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in not extending the Review Phase.
[Jordi] Based on what? Because this is even clearly against the text of the co-chairs decision. You also are recognizing across the text that the circumstances during the Covid are special, so how come then it should be acceptable not to extend the review phase considering the lack of responses, and the summer period in addition to the Covid itself?
3. It is not acceptable to accept repeated objections as valid when have been already refuted in a previous phase.
The consensus declaration should defer to the community and what they consider valid. It appears to have done so in this case.
[Jordi] Once more, lack of consensus can't be determined based on objections which are invalid as they have been reasonably refuted by the author and even other community members.
4. It is not acceptable to, considering the PDP (“The PDP is designed so that compromises can be made and genuine consensus achieved”), subjectively decide that “regardless of possible edits, reaching consensus in the short or medium term”, when there are possible ways to address the objections, which have anyway already being addressed.
We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in declaring a lack of consensus.
[Jordi] This is unacceptable. If the discussion shows that changes to the proposal can bring a new version which may achieve consensus, then it should be allowed. We know that different proposals have taken different time and different number of versions to achieve consensus, so such decision about if a proposal can reach or not consensus, can't be based on a subjective decision.
New Policy Proposal -------------------
In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time.
There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in.
We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04.
[Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal?
Working Group Chairs Excluded ==============================
The working group chairs of the Anti-Abuse working group were not part of the discussions regarding the appeal.
A number of other working group chairs recused themselves from the appeal. These were:
* Erik Bais * Gert Doering * Denis Walker
In addition, Mirjam Kühne and Niall O'Reilly recused themselves from discussion and writing of the appeal.
Recommendation to All RIPE WG Chairs ====================================
We recommend that all RIPE WG Chairs provide extra help for all policy proposals while we are struggling to deal with lack of face-to-face contact. The form of this help will vary depending on the proposal. The rest of the WGCC is available to discuss any topics related to this if any WG chairs want additional feedback or ideas.
This advice does not strictly fall within the scope of the appeal, but the appeal brought the issue to the attention of the WGCC. We consider it important to mention here.
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This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
On Mon 26/Oct/2020 15:33:21 +0100 Alex de Joode wrote:
Jordi et al, I have to comment RIPE NCC and WGCC (and those that recused themselves). The appeals process was used, the outcome reaffirmed the original decision.
It's clear the proposal was fatally flawed.
May I suggest we do not waist extra effort on this but accept the outcome and instead of looking back, regroup and look forward?
+1, there is more than just trying to rebuke non-compliant ISPs. Best Ale --
participants (6)
-
Alessandro Vesely -
Alex de Joode -
Angela Dall'Ara -
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ -
Petrit Hasani -
PP