CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers
I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from the two-letter country codes? If everything is OK in france and israel, the situation in bulgaria is pretty bad, and since Jon Postel wouldn't read all the mail, web sites, etc. about this problem, but say "there's no problem in the .bg TLDA", how are we supposed to solve it?? I mean, we (ISOC-Bulgaria) tried everything, and it wouldn't work. The current ccTLD system is rotten - at least in the .bg case. Ergo, we have to find an alternative. With all my respect for Israel and France, I remain sincerely, Veni Markovski, Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/ phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 9806431 mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria -----Original Message----- From: Annie Renard <Annie.Renard at nic.fr> To: Hank Nussbacher <hank at ibm.net.il> Cc: Jean-Christophe Praud <jc.praud at ludexpress.com>; Fay Howard <fay at ripe.net>; centr at ripe.net <centr at ripe.net>; centr-info at ripe.net <centr-info at ripe.net>; tld-wg at ripe.net <tld-wg at ripe.net>; 'Artur Grzymala' <artur at zoo.pl>; Veni Markovski <veni at isoc.bg>; Adam Todd <at at ah.net>; Jim Fleming <JimFleming at unety.net>; renard at gaillac.inria.fr <renard at gaillac.inria.fr> Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 11:43 AM Subject: Re: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers
In your previous mail you wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Jean-Christophe Praud wrote:
If RIPE CENTR includes "alternate" cccTLDs in its charter, .il will have to withdraw its support.
idem for .fr
Annie
-------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 11:42:57 MET DST 1998 ---------
Dear Veni:
I mean, we (ISOC-Bulgaria) tried everything, and it wouldn't work. The current ccTLD system is rotten - at least in the .bg case. Ergo, we have to find an alternative.
With all respect for you, Veni, you do not have to find an alternative - you have to defend your viewpoint. I'd advise you to forward all correspondence between you and Dr. Postel to this list for public consideration; afterwards, if you believe you're right, file wrongful conduct action against BG NIC in your country and make Internet community in Bulgaria aware of the situation: if your rights, or rights of public are not honored, it is your and public's responsibility to defend and enforce them. Internet isn't a monarchy and Dr. Postel isn't a king. Yours Edgar AM NIC -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 11:48:05 MET DST 1998 ---------
Edgar, *very* well said. This has ben pointed out to Veni numerous times in private correspondence. Daniel
E D Danielyan <edd at aic.net> writes:
... file wrongful conduct action against BG NIC in your country and make Internet community in Bulgaria aware of the situation: if your rights, or rights of public are not honored, it is your and public's responsibility to defend and enforce them. Internet isn't a monarchy and Dr. Postel isn't a king.
-------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 13:46:37 MET DST 1998 ---------
If everything is OK in france and israel, the situation in bulgaria is pretty bad, and since Jon Postel wouldn't read all the mail, web sites, etc. about this problem, but say "there's no problem in the .bg TLDA", how are we supposed to solve it??
I mean, we (ISOC-Bulgaria) tried everything, and it wouldn't work. The
Interesting to see that an ISOC chapter was in fact petitioning the exact system so many people within ISOC seem to support. Yet in this case it's been totally worthless an a waste of many peoples productive time. Of course ISOC-BG and it's members in Bulgaria have found a solution that works for them. Is it up to the rest of the Internet community to IGNORE them and tell them to CONFORM or TOUGH? I recall much controversy over the use of different operating systems and browsers and othere such innovations.
current ccTLD system is rotten - at least in the .bg case. Ergo, we have to find an alternative.
And so they have and it's working for them and growing. WHat right does anyone in the Internet have to tell Bulgaria and any other country that they they are "non existant" or not stakeholders or unimportant. I think their Protest, Action and Statements make them more important to the process we are currently in than ANY OTHER PROCESS THAT EXISTS IN THE WORLD TODAY.
With all my respect for Israel and France, I remain sincerely,
Veni Markovski, Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/ phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 9806431 mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria
I think that says it all. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adam Todd http://adamtodd.ah.net Business Development, Technology, Domain Registration and Network Advisory Phone +61 2 9729 0565 - Todd Corporation http://www.todd.inoz.com Fax +61 2 4659 6786 - AHNET http://www.ah.net - AURSC http://www.aursc.ah.net Telstra Reseller and Telstra Convey Member (Not an Employee of Telstra) Get the DOMAIN NAME HANDBOOK NOW http://www.domainhandbook.com -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:23:37 MET DST 1998 ---------
I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from the two-letter country codes?
because they are an irrelevant fantasy. randy -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 18:24:35 MET DST 1998 ---------
Randy Bush wrote:
I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from the two-letter country codes?
because they are an irrelevant fantasy.
Mmm. Like democracy during absolute monarchy era :o) -- Jean-Christophe PRAUD - LUDEXPRESS http://www.ludexpress.com http://www.nicwine.net http://www.irsc.ah.net 3:213 WINE Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu n'gah Bill R'lyeh Wgah'nagl fhtagn -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 19:11:42 MET DST 1998 ---------
I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from the two-letter country codes? because they are an irrelevant fantasy. Mmm. Like democracy during absolute monarchy era :o)
please read rfcs 1033-1035, 2181, etc and notice that it is a hierarchy. demagoguery about abstract political theory absent real technical and/or operational substance is irrelevant fantasy. randy -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 03:32:49 MET DST 1998 ---------
please read rfcs 1033-1035, 2181, etc and notice that it is a hierarchy.
demagoguery about abstract political theory absent real technical and/or operational substance is irrelevant fantasy.
Randy you fail to realise that the Technical is deployed - it's the political *us* engineering types are weak on, mind you there are political people who are now becoming involved with the IRSC and that's a good thing because they can sit down and document and write the drafts that *US* technical people can vote on. Fairly simple. No Fantasy - it's real. It's happening. As much as you can hope on a plane and fly to Singapore within 24 hours. People once said the ability to fly - yet alone fly around the world in a day was mere fantasy. I hope you didn't get your feet wet walking across the Pacific. -------- Logged at Mon Aug 31 10:54:25 MET DST 1998 ---------
I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from the two-letter country codes?
because they are an irrelevant fantasy.
OK, Randy, I have some bad news for an irrelevant fantasy there are a lot of people dreaming ... and it grows - every day. I just wonder at what stage some peopel are going to realise the Internet is a global medium with a lot of free range scope and not a DO IT MY WAY OR IT WON"T WORK BECAUSE I SAY SO medium. Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:03:31 GMT From: aurscreport at ah.net Subject: AURSC Statistics for: rs2 X-SERVER: rs2.au.rsc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Current Servers who have requested data from AURSC that we answered Up to Fri Aug 28 23:59:02 1998 on rs2.au.rsc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ IP Address Host Name Answers Given ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ TOTAL 1193 10.21.205.2 rs1.aursc.ah.local 1 20.8.40.1 usatlfp1.atl.csi.csc.com 59 62.160.108.13 12 139.130.11.221 dellav.lnk.telstra.net 1 140.175.69.11 bozo.scott.af.mil 24 151.201.91.6 ns1.forcomm.net 1 193.205.224.4 sun.iss.it 11 193.218.234.69 5 194.224.39.18 fwgea.mundivia.es 3 195.22.0.136 brithon.esoterica.pt 383 198.114.148.10 2 202.36.148.65 ns1.manawatu.net.nz 13 202.36.148.70 ns2.manawatu.net.nz 33 202.50.69.138 firewall.rds.co.nz 5 203.21.205.1 ns2.ah.net 23 203.21.205.20 ns4.ah.net 2 203.24.133.1 nhj.nlc.net.au 14 203.24.133.130 coast.nlc.net.au 2 203.29.72.5 core-knx3-1.mel.ipax.com.au 1 203.29.72.14 jupiter.noc.ipax.com.au 2 203.32.165.100 14 204.139.85.4 2 205.168.214.1 1 205.205.14.65 mayday.gazmet.com 14 206.136.194.250 2 206.242.194.3 3 207.193.46.82 8 208.10.228.2 www.jc-rules.com 458 208.10.243.26 3 208.130.117.6 gw1.gol.net.gy 30 208.145.195.33 20 208.150.70.49 indybbs.net 6 208.161.204.221 two.cst-online.net 27 209.119.24.163 cl.shinn.net 6 210.96.172.66 2 --------------------------------------------------------- For further information about this document, contact mailto:dns at ah.net. This Application is under development. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adam Todd http://adamtodd.ah.net Business Development, Technology, Domain Registration and Network Advisory Phone +61 2 9729 0565 - Todd Corporation http://www.todd.inoz.com Fax +61 2 4659 6786 - AHNET http://www.ah.net - AURSC http://www.aursc.ah.net Telstra Reseller and Telstra Convey Member (Not an Employee of Telstra) Get the DOMAIN NAME HANDBOOK NOW http://www.domainhandbook.com -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 10:47:27 MET DST 1998 ---------
OK, Randy, I have some bad news for an irrelevant fantasy there are a lot of people dreaming ... and it grows - every day.
cool. then use your other email address on all internet subscriptions and mail.
I just wonder at what stage some peopel are going to realise the Internet is a global medium with a lot of free range scope and not a DO IT MY WAY OR IT WON"T WORK BECAUSE I SAY SO medium.
can't speak for others, but for me it was probably a decade or two before you discovered the net. yes, i have been on the net for a wee bit. same goes for many of the other folk for whom you seem to hold such paranoia. the actual folk who cooperatively advance the network call the process "rough consensus and running code." being an engineer (well part time at least) i judge by results. those results are allowing you to tell us about your little fantasy. you're welcome. but don't expect grownups to take you seriously.
Current Servers who have requested data from AURSC that we answered Up to Fri Aug 28 23:59:02 1998 on rs2.au.rsc
i would append the analogous one for the real internet, but sending many tens of megabytes of data in email is generally not appreciated, especially as there are folk with expensive connectivity on this list. as fidonet was heavily used in africa, i was involved there for some years, gating it to/from (what became) the internet. the same silliness about who 'controlled' the namespace occurred there. the demagogues of democracy never got anywhere except creating a lot of loud noise and giving an exceedingly vocal very small minority with too much time on their hands something to do. and those folk turned out to be far less democratic than the worst of the 'old guard', having a great time stabbing each other in the back etc. history has this thing about repeating itself. randy -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 04:49:09 MET DST 1998 ---------
OK, Randy, I have some bad news for an irrelevant fantasy there are a lot of people dreaming ... and it grows - every day.
cool. then use your other email address on all internet subscriptions and mail.
Which address? One I'm not so well known at? I'll tell you what, how about you use your mothers phone number as your contact number - it's still a valid number isn't it? I use a domain name I have recognision for and that which best represents what I'm doing. As I don't have an MTA that can change my address according to the list/person I'm posting to, I use a common address and worry about filtering when my MTA receives the email. I may choose in the future to use a Domain Name under another TLD, but right now I don't really have one that is suitable to my most common use.
I just wonder at what stage some peopel are going to realise the Internet is a global medium with a lot of free range scope and not a DO IT MY WAY OR IT WON"T WORK BECAUSE I SAY SO medium.
can't speak for others, but for me it was probably a decade or two before you discovered the net. yes, i have been on the net for a wee bit. same goes for many of the other folk for whom you seem to hold such paranoia.
Can't speak for others and you can't speak for me. Randy, I can't clai, to have been around as long as you, I have been told a little of your history and your been there stories. But I can say I've been around Techology and R&D at Chip level since 1979. That at least accounts for something. My first IP network was set up in 1981 and I was one of the first six people to being internet traffic into Australia - in fact I did it by Satallite at the time. So I've been around. And I've seen probably as much as you have where Internet as a commercial product in it's own right, has come from.
the actual folk who cooperatively advance the network call the process "rough consensus and running code." being an engineer (well part time at
Sure, rough consenesus is certainly what AURSC and IRSC are about. All the members and people using RSCs are in 100% guaranteed consensus. It's a little better than what we have elsewhere huh?
least) i judge by results.
Yes so do I. If people use a resource, and they continue to uuse a resource, and they tell others about a resource, then somehting must be good.
those results are allowing you to tell us about your little fantasy.
It's not a Fantasy. See you're using a word from the English lanugage very incorrectly. A fantasy is a ficticious story that has not resembelance to life itself. AURSC and IRSC are in no way fantasies because they exist, work and are growing.
you're welcome. but don't expect grownups to take you seriously.
Randy, trying to be quite pretencious doesn't work with me. I'd say your no more grown up than any other person. But in sight of this, there is one problem. PEOPLE who would no doubt qualify as "grown ups" in your book are in fact taking thinsg very seriously or there would be no question.
Current Servers who have requested data from AURSC that we answered Up to Fri Aug 28 23:59:02 1998 on rs2.au.rsc
i would append the analogous one for the real internet, but sending many tens of megabytes of data in email is generally not appreciated, especially as there are folk with expensive connectivity on this list.
Sure, and can you also send me the stats for the number of people running Microsoft Internet Information Server please. Your point is what? Randy whilst your collecting stats for me can you also tell me how many Holden Commodroes were sold in Australia at the time the Model T Ford was on sale. I suppose this will be difficult, but i'ts a statement of evolution and evoloution will continue. BTW, do you have a pet Taranasourus Rex?
as fidonet was heavily used in africa, i was involved there for some years,
And yes, I was very heavily involed in Fidone tin Australia from around 1988, way after I was already carrying Internet traffic for users in Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra.
gating it to/from (what became) the internet.
Yes, did the same. Nothing new there. I wrote the code myself on a 286 platform using DOS and Arcnet originally, I even wrote the TCP/IP and UDP layers for DOS and Arcnet themselves as there was nothing available that didn't cost thousands of dollars.
the same silliness about who 'controlled' the namespace occurred there.
Yes it did and most people in the commercial world who wanted results ignored it and continued to develope and create.
the demagogues of democracy never got anywhere except creating a lot of loud noise and giving an exceedingly vocal very small minority with too much time on their hands something to do.
Sounds like ... I won't say.
and those folk turned out to be far less democratic than the worst of the 'old guard', having a great time stabbing each other in the back etc. history has this thing about repeating itself.
No not quite. Not repeating yet. This time round commercial value is at stake and there are people who real cash and concerns involved. It certainly wasn't costing us anything ten years ago in reality other than the cost of the links which were used by our commercial company during the AU and USA day periods, the rest of the time we flooded it with Fidonet and Internet Transactions. This time round, people want a trusting resource or a resource they can be sure wn't change the course of their business plans. That's only fair as the Internet is still based on COOPERATION and to get cooperation from competitors requires a real talent and we're seeing exactly that - it doesn't work at the IANA/NSI/etc level. AURSC/IRSC and the other RSC's are cooperative groups of people with interests at the next level, so no one interest party can control the environment - you are welcome to try. You can delay it and try and sabotage it, but that ultimately won't do you any good. People who make up the RSC's and the TLD holders (all TLD's) are always welcome because the whole thing is about THEIR interests and how to make it all work for everyone. No Cooperation - No Global Internet. We might as well all pull our WAN polugs tonight ... -------- Logged at Mon Aug 31 10:52:31 MET DST 1998 ---------
Adam Todd:
OK, Randy, I have some bad news for an irrelevant fantasy there are a lot of people dreaming ... and it grows - every day.
cool. then use your other email address on all internet subscriptions and mail.
Which address? One I'm not so well known at?
I'll tell you what, how about you use your mothers phone number as your contact number - it's still a valid number isn't it?
guys, can you move this kind of dicussions off this forum ? please ... --w -------- Logged at Tue Sep 1 01:59:20 MET DST 1998 ---------
participants (7)
-
at＠ah.net -
Daniel.Karrenberg＠ripe.net -
edd＠aic.net -
jc.praud＠ludexpress.com -
randy＠psg.com -
veni＠isoc.bg -
wojsyl1＠icm.edu.pl