- tld-wg - mailman.ripe.net

CORE == Big Brother ??
by CirqueFan＠aol.com 12 Feb '98

12 Feb '98

In a message dated 98-02-12 14:26:18 EST, jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com writes: << That is not what the MoU says. >> Maybe an 8th grade reading level is necessary at this point. MANY of the registrars in CORE have NOT signed the Gtld-Mou. IT IS NOT NOW nor has it ever been a requirement of being a CORE member. Read it again....or ask someone to translate it for you! Audrey -------- Logged at Thu Feb 12 22:34:45 MET 1998 ---------

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CORE == Big Brother ??
by CirqueFan＠aol.com 12 Feb '98

12 Feb '98

In a message dated 98-02-12 12:48:15 EST, bob at wtv.net writes: << And they're not taking any more applications >> Anyone could have become a register in the time frame first introduced. The fact that they are not at this time taking registrations has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion. Talk is underway right now to reopen the application process and allow more registrars to enter. You might not want to believe it but a significant number of persons have expressed interest in joining the process. I fail to understand the big deal about a $300,000 line of credit...Most 3 bedroom homes in the Northeast United States are worth more than that. What is wrong with wanting businesses associated with you to have some legitimacy? You go on and on about the closed society...it doesn't float. The anarchy you propose would do more damage in a millisecond of operation than the all the other propositions in the world. Face it, you are two hundred and twenty-two years to late to make the changes you would propose. The Europian community WAS not asked for input by Magaziner prior to the release of the greenpaper...the proof of that is now appearing in their formal statements of opposition to the GP. Magaziner treated this as an American decision then and continues to do so. This is a much bigger issue than all the CORE Associations in the world. What is happening right in front of your eyes is the most disturbing. In several meetings and in several statements to the press Magaziner has basically said he really doesn't care what the world community has to say, this is a United States Commerce issue and will be treated as such...be careful...The Big Brother you are speaking of is the sheep in wolves clothing. There are many "good" people at NSI and SAIC that would love for you to believe this is being done in the interest of the Internet. I am one of Magaziner's true experiments...forced in to managed health care. So far nothing the man has set out to accomplish has done anything but cause grief for the very people he claims to want to help. Look at his track record..No good can come of the USGP as no one in the commerce department even has a grasp of the realities. Read the technical specs..it is there in black and white..you would think they would have to understand the system wouldn't you? I am not saying the CORE way is the only way....what I am saying is that if in an attempt to derail whom you perceive as the enemy you side with the USG you will have handed the rope to the executioner. I am not saying join the Gtld- Mou...I am not even saying to stop all your negative attacks on it...what I am saying is don't look to the United States Government to be your savior..because if you do you may end up with a sack full of promises and bits of shells...our history speaks for itself. Audrey -------- Logged at Thu Feb 12 20:29:57 MET 1998 ---------

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CORE == Big Brother ??
by JimFleming＠doorstep.unety.net 12 Feb '98

12 Feb '98

On Thursday, February 12, 1998 11:07 AM, CirqueFan at aol.com wrote: @In a message dated 98-02-12 11:41:14 EST, jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com writes: @ @<< Setting restrictions for participation such @ as signing @ th MoU do not lend themselves to this. Hence you now do not have any thing @ close to a consensus of the internet community as a whole or of the @ Stakeholders >> @ @YOU DID NOT HAVE TO SIGN THE GTLD-MOU to become a member of CORE. @ @How many times must this be said before you get it???? @ @ Yes....and you do not have to become a member of CORE to participate in the commercial expansion of the Registry Industry. The U.S. Government has made it clear that they intend to allow many participants to have their TLD delegations placed in the legacy Root Name Server Confederation that the U.S. Government has funded and therefore controls. Unfortunately, the IAHC/CORE crowd made a strategic mistake. They claim that there is only ONE valid Root Name Server Confederation and the one they follow is the legacy RSC controlled by the U.S. Government. They were unable to understand the difference in one true root name space and one true root server confederation. NOW, they do not want to allow the U.S. Government to have say over their own legacy Root Name Server Confederation. This is typical of the IAHC/CORE crowd. They do not want people to have a choice. They want to dictate the rules and to have everyone blindly follow. Some people have followed and some people have not. Some have paid $$$ to follow. Some will continue to pay $$$ to follow. That will drive UP the price of their services. Other companies have chosen to respect the rights of the U.S. Government to control the destiny of its Root Name Server Confederation. This same respect has been extended to large and small companies that operate their own Root Name Server Confederations. CORE seems to lack the basic need to respect other people's and government's rights. This seems to be an attitude problem that was inherited from the people that organized CORE. Here is an old posting that might help to paint the picture... ==== === If the IAHC Discovered America....the following may have occurred... Scene 1: Landing on the Beach Columbus: "You men go scout around for some food." Scout #1: "Boss, there might be some dangerous animals out there, should we take some weapons from the ship?" Columbus: "Of course not, if you have any problems just call 911 on your cellular phone and report it to the Police" Scout #2: "Boss, I am not sure they have cellular phones here, if you recall, we did not even see any street lights when we sailed into the harbor last night." Columbus: "Details, details, keep in mind I am an executive, don't trouble me with the details, just get me some food." Scouts #1 and #2: "Yes Sir !" Scene 2: In a Clearing Scout #1: "Did you hear something?" Scout #2: "I think so, and I think I saw a human" Scout #1: "Yes, so did I, is that possible ?" Scout #2: "No, we are the only people on Earth" Scout #1: "There it is again, I am sure I saw a person run behind that tree." Scout #2: "Could you tell if that person was a member of one of our working groups?" Scout #1: "I don't know, maybe we better go back to the ship and tell the boss, and see if we can find out if there are people living here, and where they would have come from. The boss has an answer for tough questions like that." Scout #2: "Well if there are people here, it does not matter because our charter is to discover the New World and we are the only ones allowed to do that." Scout #1: "That is true, but keep in mind the boss wants food and we need to find some and if we can find some people here maybe they can give us a hand getting food for the boss." Scout #2: "Let's go back first and ask the boss what to do, I am not sure he knows that there are people here." Scene 3: Back on the Ship Scout #1: "Sir, we have not yet found your food, but we did see some people running around in the forest, we would like to know what to do." Columbus: "People ? Nonsense ! We are the first people here. Haven't you noticed, there are no other ships in the harbor and we have not even heard any planes taking off or landing." Scout #2: "Sir, maybe they do not have ships or planes." Columbus: "Impossible, how would they go site seeing in Switzerland if they did not have planes? Besides, this is the New World and we have been chartered to discover it. If we do meet up with any people, we should just ignore them, because no one back in Europe will know they are here and we will not mention them in any of our reports....Now, what about food? " Scout #1: "OK, what do you suggest that we do if we do meet up with some people? Should we ask them for some food if they have it?" Columbus: "Ask? Why ask? just take anything that you see. We are in charge. You keep forgetting I am an executive, if you run into any problems just tell these people I authorized everything." Scout #2: "Boss, they may not even know who we are. They may want to discuss this." Columbus: "What are you talking about, our domain name is painted on our ship. If they want to know who we are, they can look it up. I don't have time to deal with details, if there are people out there, tell them to give us their food and not to ask any questions." Scout #1: "What if they do not speak English?" Columbus: "Nonsense, everyone speaks English and if they don't, then they better have enough money to hire an interpretor because we do not have time to delay, we have to discover the New World soon and get ready for our trips to Hong Kong and Malaysia next year. Those are going to be significant events after we get this New World discovery mission wrapped up here on the East Coast....now, please find us some food, before we starve..." Scouts #1 and #2: "Yes Sir !" Scene 4: Back on shore Scout #1: "I'm not sure what we should do. I thought that he would send more help with us. He does not seem to be concerned about the people we saw." Scout #2: "He told me that others volunteered to come with us, and that they are also searching for food, but I have not seen them. Maybe they went fishing?" Scout #1: "I have an idea, let's put up a big sign and place all of our demands on it. Then we can hide and see if anyone comes to read it. If they do, then we know they can read English, they will know that we want food, and we can watch them to see if they are friendly." Scout #2: "Good idea, where should we put it?" Scout #1: "How about up on that hill over there, then we can watch from the ship." Scout #2: "Hmmm, how big should it be?" Scout #1: "How about 10 feet high and 20 feet wide?" Scout #2: "I don't know, that may be too small, how about 21 feet wide?" Scout #1: "That throws off the ratio, maybe we should first decide what to write on the sign, and then decide how much space we need." Scout #2: "I think that we should write, WE ARE HERE TO DISCOVER THE NEW WORLD, WE ARE AUTHORIZED TO DO THIS, PLEASE GIVE US 20,000 BUSHELS OF CORN OR OTHER FOOD SO THAT WE CAN FINISH OUR MISSION AND GO SAILING AROUND THE WORLD" Scout #1: "Why should we tell them that we are going to use the food to go sailing? Maybe, we should leave that last part off ?" Scout #2: "If we do that, then they will not clearly see what the food is for and may not bring it." Scout #1: "We don't even know if there are people here, whether they have any food, whether they can read English, or whether they understand what sailing around the world is all about. It seems like we are assuming too much." Scout #2: "Maybe we should go back to the ship and ask the boss." Scout #1: "OK" Scene 5: Back on the Ship Scout #1: "Boss, we have an idea and we need your help. We want to post a sign on that hill above the shore and use it to explain to people why we need food." Scout $2: "Yes, and we can also watch to see who looks at it and find out if there are people here and if they can read English." Columbus: "What do you need from me? I am a busy executive I have been busy scanning the horizon for other ships and watching the weather. What is it ?" Scout #1: "We need you to help us decide how big to make the sign." Scout #2: "Yes, and we need you to decide what words to put on the sign." Columbus: "It does not matter to me, I sent some other scouts out fishing and they are catching fish. So, do what you like with the sign. If there are people on shore, it might help to keep them busy while we fish here in the harbor. We have plenty of food, it is swimming right under the boat. At last count, there were 7 million fish in this harbor." Scout #1: "If that is the case, then maybe we should catch fish and give them to people on shore. This would be a way to make friends." Scout #2: "Or, we could put up a sign on shore that says, "FRESH FISH FOR SALE", and then we could sell the fish to the people who wander by." Columbus: "Our mission is to discover the New World, we do not have time to sell fish and we certainly are not going to give them away. We will stock up here and then set sail for our other adventures. You can return to shore if you like, but be careful, don't let anyone on shore know about the fish out here. And also, make sure they understand that we have discovered this land they are on." Scouts #1 and #2: "Yes Sir !" Scene 6: Back in the Clearing Scout #1: "This is a great sign we made. I bet people will really respond to this. How does it look ?" Scout #2: "Great, I think it is just the right size, this will work." Scout #1: "Let me read it out loud, to see how it sounds... WARNING: THIS AREA OFF LIMITS AND RESERVED FOR FUTURE EXPANSION. NO FISHING OR SWIMMING ALLOWED. BY THE ORDER OF THE NEW WORLD DISCOVERY TEAM WHICH IS SAILING AROUND THE WORLD HELPING OTHER PEOPLE LIKE YOU. Scout #2: "Yes, that will do the trick. The next time we come here there will be plenty of fish and plenty of land to build houses. This will keep anyone away that has any ideas. Now, back to the ship for some of that fish." Closing Scene: At the Dinner Table below Deck Columbus: "Well maties, we have accomplished our mission. We have discovered the New World and we are ready to set sail for new advantures. We have left a sign on shore to make sure that no one goes near this harbor which has filled our boat with more fish than we can carry." Scout #1: "Sir, I was just up on deck and I have news to report." Columbus: "What is it ? We are busy, can't you see that ?" Scout #1: "Well sir, the sign is gone, some people took it and cut it into firewood. Then they made a fire, grilled some fish, and had a feast. Now they are singing and dancing." Columbus: "They have a lot of nerve, they must have watched us catching fish and are copying our techniques. We need to sail out of here, before they try to tell us they have rights to that land. The next thing you know, they will be asking us to give them a ride to Hong Kong and Malaysia. They have a lot of nerve." Scout #1: "But sir, they burned the sign, it no longer says that we reserved the land. They just ignored it." Columbus: "I am a busy executive, details like that sign do not matter, the next time we come here, we will explain to them that the sign was there for 60 days and therefore they have to move on.This will not be a problem, because we will authorize it." Scout #2: "But sir, the sign was only there a short time, not 60 days." Scout #1: "Yes, but those people do not know how long it was there and besides, our intentions were to have it there for 60 days, it is not our fault that they could not read the sign and used it for firewood." Columbus: "Yes, that is right, we are doing the right thing, we always do, just because people can not read our signs, that does not diminish our claims. Tomorrow we sail for new adventures. Our mission here is accomplished. We have discovered the New World, just like we were told to do. Now, when we get back to Europe not a word to anyone about those people on shore. As far as we know we left the sign and it is still there and there are still 6 million fish in the harbor. That is 2 million for each of us. Scouts #1 and #2: "Yes Sir !" ....and they sailed on... ====== Jim Fleming Unir Corporation IBC, Tortola, BVI -------- Logged at Thu Feb 12 18:55:16 MET 1998 ---------

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CORE == Big Brother ??
by JimFleming＠doorstep.unety.net 12 Feb '98

12 Feb '98

On Thursday, February 12, 1998 7:50 AM, Roberto Gaetano[SMTP:Roberto.Gaetano at etsi.fr] wrote: <snip> @> @> Those round tables are always open to you...and everyone... @> @Thank you. @I appreciate this. @I have no doubts of the power of the open round tables, and the common @effort of the Netizens. My point was only that the Green Paper, and the @process that originated it, is what you can think the farthest away from @this open round table. @And I am astonished about why some people can accept it. @ I hope that people understand that I do NOT support the U.S. Government's Green Paper for any IPv8 related matters. IPv8 does not need this type of government intervention because proper planning has been done. With IPv4 (and IPv6) the picture is much different. Significant U.S. Government leadership will be required because there is no benevolent leadership from the academic or private sectors. Therefore, the U.S. Government must provide that leadership. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation IBC, Tortola, BVI -------- Logged at Thu Feb 12 17:32:46 MET 1998 ---------

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CORE == Big Brother ??
by CirqueFan＠aol.com 12 Feb '98

12 Feb '98

In a message dated 98-02-12 11:41:14 EST, jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com writes: << Setting restrictions for participation such as signing th MoU do not lend themselves to this. Hence you now do not have any thing close to a consensus of the internet community as a whole or of the Stakeholders >> YOU DID NOT HAVE TO SIGN THE GTLD-MOU to become a member of CORE. How many times must this be said before you get it???? -------- Logged at Thu Feb 12 18:39:50 MET 1998 ---------

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RIPE CENTR project ...
by BERI＠etf.bg.ac.yu 12 Feb '98

12 Feb '98

Hello, The YU TLD fully supports the RIPE CENTR project, since it is certainly a way of better coordination among nTLDs. Due to some organizational problems and other hostmasters' duties in that time, we won't be able to participate at the Amsterdam meeting. However, we'll be willing to participate in all actions of the RIPE CENTR. Best regards, Beri .-------. | --+-- | Berislav Todorovic, B.Sc.E.E. | E-mail: BERI at etf.bg.ac.yu | /|\ Hostmaster of the YU TLD | |-(-+-)-| School of Electrical Engineering | Phone: (+381-11) 3221-419 | \|/ Bulevar Revolucije 73 | 3370-106 | --+-- | 11000 Belgrade SERBIA, YUGOSLAVIA | Fax: (+381-11) 3248-681 `-------' -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Logged at Thu Feb 12 14:53:51 MET 1998 ---------

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RIPE CENTR project
by daiva＠sc-uni.ktu.lt 12 Feb '98

12 Feb '98

Hi, TLD .lt supports the RIPE CENTR project. Regards, ========================================================================= Daiva Tamulioniene Kaunas University of Technology LT hostmaster LITNET NOC Studentu 48a-101, Kaunas, Lithuania tel. 370-7-762896/ 370-98-36652 fax. 370-7-799925 ========================================================================= -------- Logged at Thu Feb 12 14:30:08 MET 1998 ---------

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Meeting RIPE nTLD registries
by guntis＠latnet.lv 12 Feb '98

12 Feb '98

At 22:40 11/02/98 +0100, Boudewijn Nederkoorn wrote: >I understand fully your problems to go to Amsterdam, just for one meeting. >Let me explain what the objectives are. >First: we want to generate support for the RIPE-CENTR project in order to >carry out the wg-TLD workprogramme. It would be nice if you would send a >mail to the wg-TLD list with your support for the RIPE-CENTR project. In the name of LV-NIC (nTLD of Latvia, .lv) I would like to express our support for RIPE-CENTR project and we are looking forward to participate in RIPE-CENTR activities. Best regards, -- Guntis Barzdins, LV-NIC -------- Logged at Thu Feb 12 12:27:22 MET 1998 ---------

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CORE == Big Brother ??
by Roberto.Gaetano＠etsi.fr 12 Feb '98

12 Feb '98

Hi, Jim. You wrote: > On Friday, February 06, 1998 7:27 PM, Roberto > Gaetano[SMTP:Roberto.Gaetano at etsi.fr] wrote: > @Jay, > @ > @May I start by making one thing clear: I am a member of CORE, > <snip> > @My point is that these rules have to be enforced by ourselves, and > those > @decisions have to be made by ourselves, the cybernauts. > @We have to grow up to the point in which we decide for ourselves, and > @resist the temptation to have "big brother" decide for all of us. > @ > > Roberto, > > Your "big brothers" are CORE and the POC/PAB as well > as the ITU/ISOC/IANA/IAHC, etc. They are making the > decisions for you. > Let me disagree. I've participated in all decisions CORE has made, since its foundation. This doesn't mean that I have agreed on everything, but I have always had the possibility of knowing the different positions, made up my mind, and participate. I also had the possibility to make my voice heard, and to try to get other people on my side. Whether I was succesful or not, I can't tell, and it doesn't matter. The process has been always open and democratic. This is not the case with the Green Paper. The decision was forced upon the Internet community, and all we can do is agree or comment in the hope that the comment will be taken into account. There has been no open discussion, no consultation of the other Governments of the world, no vote, no nothing. > The heart and soul of the Registry Industry are the people > and companies that are strong enough to stand on their > own without paying a "big brother" $10,000 and $2,000/month > to lobby for them. > The amount of the payments the Registrars make to CORE, and the use of the money by CORE, are discussed and decided by the Registrars. CORE Members like Deutsche Telekom or Telia, just to make an example, are strong and big enough not to need a "big brother". They are actually stronger and bigger than CORE itself. Nevertheless, companies of any size happen to coordinate in order to achieve their goals. It's the purpose of all associations of any sort. We ourselves (ETSI) are a not-for-profit association of some 450 members in the Telecom business worldwide, most of which far bigger than the association itself. They decide the fees, pay them, and decide what ETSI has to do with the money. Nobody in those companies (IBM, Nokia, Ericsson, France Telecom, NEC, ....) thinks at ETSI as a Big Brother. I agree that, on the long term, the $10,000 "entry fee" has to be removed. But in the short term, how do you think we could have raised the money for setting up the system, considering that we strongly believe in a Shared Registry System as the only reasonable answer to the needs for the management of the Domain Names? We could have asked to Ira Magaziner or other people. Maybe we would have had the money from a Big Brother or a Big Sister, so no need for $10K, but would you think Big Brother would have left ourselves arbiter of the choices? No, Big Brother would have decided himself. The only answer was to give ourselves financial independence to be free to decide. Which we did. Of course, once the system will be up and running (and paid for), the "bareers" will be gradually removed, because they will be no longer needed (even counterproductive, because they will limit participation). > One of the interesting aspects of the Internet is that it allows > many, many people to sit at the round tables where decisions > are made. Those tables are as close as your keyboard and > mouse. You can communicate with the other participants in > real-time. People at those round tables have already grown > up to the point where they decide for themselves. They do not > have much trouble resisting the temptation of having others > making decisions for them. They speak for themselves and > their voices are heard. > > Those round tables are always open to you...and everyone... > Thank you. I appreciate this. I have no doubts of the power of the open round tables, and the common effort of the Netizens. My point was only that the Green Paper, and the process that originated it, is what you can think the farthest away from this open round table. And I am astonished about why some people can accept it. Best regards Roberto -------- Logged at Thu Feb 12 15:27:46 MET 1998 ---------

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CORE == Big Brother ??
by JimFleming＠doorstep.unety.net 12 Feb '98

12 Feb '98

On Friday, February 06, 1998 7:27 PM, Roberto Gaetano[SMTP:Roberto.Gaetano at etsi.fr] wrote: @Jay, @ @May I start by making one thing clear: I am a member of CORE, <snip> @My point is that these rules have to be enforced by ourselves, and those @decisions have to be made by ourselves, the cybernauts. @We have to grow up to the point in which we decide for ourselves, and @resist the temptation to have "big brother" decide for all of us. @ Roberto, Your "big brothers" are CORE and the POC/PAB as well as the ITU/ISOC/IANA/IAHC, etc. They are making the decisions for you. The heart and soul of the Registry Industry are the people and companies that are strong enough to stand on their own without paying a "big brother" $10,000 and $2,000/month to lobby for them. One of the interesting aspects of the Internet is that it allows many, many people to sit at the round tables where decisions are made. Those tables are as close as your keyboard and mouse. You can communicate with the other participants in real-time. People at those round tables have already grown up to the point where they decide for themselves. They do not have much trouble resisting the temptation of having others making decisions for them. They speak for themselves and their voices are heard. Those round tables are always open to you...and everyone... Jim Fleming Unir Corporation IBC, Tortola, BVI -------- Logged at Thu Feb 12 11:38:02 MET 1998 ---------

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