- tld-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Problems with PL ccTLD's administrator
by JimFleming＠unety.net 01 Sep '98

01 Sep '98

-----Original Message----- From: W.Sylwestrzak at icm.edu.pl <wojsyl1 at icm.edu.pl> To: Artur Grzymala <artur at zoo.pl> Cc: tld-wg at ripe.net <tld-wg at ripe.net> Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 7:00 PM Subject: Re: Problems with PL ccTLD's administrator Artur Grzymala: > > Hi, > > I'm looking for help. PL administrator stole my domain. Where can I write > about it? Which internet organization can help me? > First of all, a domainname is not your 'property', actually it's no-one's property. And please don't explain what you mean by PL administrator *stealing* *your* domain. if you have a legal agreement with him, then just sue him for breaking it. --w @@@@@@@@@ I am not sure that it makes sense to fill the courts with domain name disputes that might be easily handled, using the Internet, by the Internet community in the "region" where the dispute is located. Using the "neighbor net" approach, we see that the trustees from Greece and Switzerland and the TLDs in between can come together to help resolve these types of disputes. One person can not do the job. http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt 3:174 GR (GREECE) <-------------- Can these people help ? 3:175 SALT 3:176 PL (POLAND) <---------- Dispute 3:177 ROME 3:178 CANVAS 3:179 BEL (BELGIUM) 3:180 LIE (LIECHTENSTEIN) 3:181 FINE 3:182 TUR (TURKEY) 3:183 GEO (GEORGIA) 3:184 CH (SWITZERLAND) <--------- Can these people help ? As the picture above fills in, the dispute would be handled even more local to the .PL domain. In an ideal case we will have the 8 trustees for the .PL domain who can provide a forum to give people a fair hearing. Working out from the .PL domain, the trustees for the .SALT and .ROME domains would be called upon to help. Not the whole world. In summary, this is like a large auditorium. If someone has an illness in one of the "seats" the entire population does not have to rush to their rescue. In many cases, the people local to the situation can resolve the problem. Let's say the person faints. It might be a simple matter of reviving them. The answer is not to bring the whole world in and then to sue everyone. Think global and act local... Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Wed Sep 2 18:50:42 MET DST 1998 ---------

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CIX's Position in the IFWP Steering Committee detailed below
by JimFleming＠UNETY.NET 01 Sep '98

01 Sep '98

Dave, Thanks for the summary. To clarify, my main agenda is not IPv6 or IPv8. My main agenda is to help create more resources and to allow those resources to find their way into people's hands around the world with as low a distribution cost as possible to help allow more people to use the Internet without funding a bunch of lounge lizards to fly around the world every time they feel like it funded by taxes they collect from the disadvantaged people that they have under their thumbs....or IN-ADDR.ARPA. I was hopeful that the IETF (without the ISOC) would continue to be a good group to help encourage the low-cost distribution of resources. It now appears that the new IANA Inc. may be a better facilitator for that mission because the IETF has been captured by the ISOC "suits". Even though the IFWP people mean well, they have now attracted the IAHC CORE crowd that is mainly looking to cash in on some quick buck schemes. I am hopeful that Jon Postel saw enough of the IAHC result to know better than to go near the IFWP this time around. He has also been able to witness the "members only" approach used in ARIN and which the IFWP people seem to think provides a democracy. I am confident that Jon Postel and the various old-school IETF people will be able to push forward to move the IANA Inc. to a point where it is legally disjoint from the ISOC and the IETF. When that occurs, we might have a chance to all work to renew the faith and to bring more resources to people around the world at a low cost. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -----Original Message----- From: Dave Paulsen <dave at reststop.net> To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv at lists.psi.com> Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 11:38 PM Subject: Re: CIX's Position in the IFWP Steering Committee detailed below >On 30 Aug 98,, Eric Weisberg wrote: > >> 2. Is Jim Flemming correct that this is not worth getting excited about? >> >Well, in some ways. His agenda, of course, is IPvX. Which, I also believe, is >more important in the grand scheme of things than the hoopla over TLDs. >Some of his concerns, however, are equally valid in both debates. > >Other TLDs are being successfully used--on a technical level. And, on a >technical level, the IP address space problem could be migrated more >smoothly into TNG if some of the "big boys" (and I use this term loosely here >(no, it's _mine_, you can't _make_ me give it back)) would aggregate/return >more of the current address space. > >Part of the problem in both debates is the concern over whose "deserving" >pockets the profits are going into, and especially on the in-addr.arpa side, >that profiteering not take place on the _necessary_ resource. I mean, a TLD >is just a string of characters, and with GUIs, no longer of much real use >outside of marketing. For Internet based communications to occur at all, >though, you _need_ an affordable, routable, IP address. > >I think for efficient, ubiquitous use of Internet technologies, both TLDs and >IPvX need to be based on open protocol standards, and centrally managed >(even with a regional second tier for day to day operations) to prevent >collisions and non-reachable sites. As far as I'm aware, the only way to have >this, at least on this particular planet, is either with a "benign" government >agency, or an international non-profit organization, ideally run by geeks. > >And I make that last little comment because _what_ people do on the >Internet is a social phenomena and the capitalists, politicians, and marketers >can do what they will to try to sleaze their way into the mindset of the user; >that people _can_ do what they will on the Internet is solidly in the domain of >the engineer and meddling merely decreases efficiency. > > >_dave_(seemingly obligatory and definitely resource wasting .sig) > -------- Logged at Wed Sep 2 08:52:13 MET DST 1998 ---------

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CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers
by veni＠isoc.bg 01 Sep '98

01 Sep '98

I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from the two-letter country codes? If everything is OK in france and israel, the situation in bulgaria is pretty bad, and since Jon Postel wouldn't read all the mail, web sites, etc. about this problem, but say "there's no problem in the .bg TLDA", how are we supposed to solve it?? I mean, we (ISOC-Bulgaria) tried everything, and it wouldn't work. The current ccTLD system is rotten - at least in the .bg case. Ergo, we have to find an alternative. With all my respect for Israel and France, I remain sincerely, Veni Markovski, Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/ phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 9806431 mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria -----Original Message----- From: Annie Renard <Annie.Renard at nic.fr> To: Hank Nussbacher <hank at ibm.net.il> Cc: Jean-Christophe Praud <jc.praud at ludexpress.com>; Fay Howard <fay at ripe.net>; centr at ripe.net <centr at ripe.net>; centr-info at ripe.net <centr-info at ripe.net>; tld-wg at ripe.net <tld-wg at ripe.net>; 'Artur Grzymala' <artur at zoo.pl>; Veni Markovski <veni at isoc.bg>; Adam Todd <at at ah.net>; Jim Fleming <JimFleming at unety.net>; renard at gaillac.inria.fr <renard at gaillac.inria.fr> Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 11:43 AM Subject: Re: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers > > In your previous mail you wrote: > > On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Jean-Christophe Praud wrote: > > If RIPE CENTR includes "alternate" cccTLDs in its charter, .il will have > to withdraw its support. > >idem for .fr > > Annie > -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 11:42:57 MET DST 1998 ---------

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[ifwp] Re: announcement from the Berkman Center
by JimFleming＠unety.net 30 Aug '98

30 Aug '98

-----Original Message----- From: Chuck Gomes <cgomes at internic.net> To: IFWP Discussion List <list at ifwp.org> Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 6:29 AM Subject: [ifwp] Re: announcement from the Berkman Center >What CRITICAL functions is the IANA currently performing? What would happen to >those functions if IANA did not perform them? > >There have been a lot of generalizations about IANA's critical role but I don't >think I have seen anyone SPECIFICALLY define that role. It seems to me that the >only reasonable way to clearly decide how critical that role really is is to look at >the functions one by one in an honest, unemotional way. In each case we should >answer these questions: who is actually performing the function? what impact would >there be if IANA was not involved? what would happen if IANA did not have any >funding come October 1st? would the stability of the Internet be affected in any >way? if so, how? > >This is not in anyway intended to denigrate any of the accomplishments that Jon may >have accomplished in the past, but rather to help us look honestly at the present. >If we are unwilling to do this, then it is absurd to create a new organization to >replace the existing functionality of the current IANA. > >Chuck Gomes > I AGREE 100.00% Not only should we document what critical functions the IANA provides, but also what critical functions that they DO NOT PROVIDE !!!! For the past few years, people with very little knowledge have been allowed to claim that the IANA performs some function, when in fact the IANA does not. Unfortunately, the small staff at the IANA and it's Director Jon Postel has not seen the need to dispute people's claims. On one hand people should be able to understand that it is not Jon's duty to run around the net reading every word spoken about the IANA and setting the record straight when the words are not true. On the other hand, when groups like the ISOC, IAHC, CORE, POC, PAB, EXCOM, etc. make claims such as, "The IANA will be adding TLDs to the legacy Root Name Servers", those claims should be disputed. Jon Postel was not forthcoming in making it clear what he could do and could not do. At the present time, we know a couple of things that the IANA is not able to do. 1. The IANA can not add new TLDs to the legacy Root Name Servers. 2. The IANA can not add entries to the IN-ADDR.ARPA zone except via ARIN where Jon Postel is a Board member. If people follow Chuck's advice, we should separate Jon Postel from the IANA. Just because Jon Postel may be able to do something does not mean the IANA can do the same thing. If and when Jon Postel helps the ITAG and/or a board create the so-called IANA Inc. in California the same approach should hold. People need to clearly look at that NEW corporation as a legal agent, distinct from the Jon Postel human agent, and make sure they clearly understand what each agent can and CAN NOT do. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Mon Aug 31 22:27:22 MET DST 1998 ---------

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BG TLD
by veni＠isoc.bg 30 Aug '98

30 Aug '98

Hank, there's only one little problem - until the people at IANA (or this committee) realise I am arguing on behalf of many people, ISPs, organizatoins; and this has nothing to do with competition... until then, they'll listen to the current .bg TLDA. And you know what? They just don't realise the situation in Bulgaria; this is what you call a "cross cultural difference". regards, Veni Markovski, Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/ phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 9806431 mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria >If you feel the .bg ccTLD is not properly managed and that Jon is not >responsive enough, soon will be an IANA-ng organization and you will be >able to submit your request to a committee and it will be decided. >Patience. If you are correct in your statements - then I am sure a panel >of people will get to the truth. But alternate TLDs belong in their own >sphere. There are the current gTLDs and there are the ccTLDs. Create an >aTLD organization for alternate TLDs which can include alterNIC and >network luminaries like Jim Fleming, Bob Allisat, etc. -------- Logged at Sun Aug 30 15:27:55 MET DST 1998 ---------

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PL TLD (re: BG TLD)
by JimFleming＠unety.net 29 Aug '98

29 Aug '98

Artur, Can you explain what *specific* changes you would want to see to the root zone if any ? By specific I mean name servers, technical and administrative contact changes, etc. Keep in mind that most people can not keep up on all of the TLDs in the world. It helps to provide context and specific requests. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -----Original Message----- From: Artur Grzymala <artur at zoo.pl> To: Hank Nussbacher <hank at ibm.net.il> Cc: Veni Markovski <veni at isoc.bg>; E D Danielyan <edd at aic.net>; Daniel Karrenberg <Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net>; centr at ripe.net <centr at ripe.net>; tld-wg at ripe.net <tld-wg at ripe.net> Date: Saturday, August 29, 1998 1:42 PM Subject: PL TLD (re: BG TLD) > > >On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > >> If you feel the .bg ccTLD is not properly managed and that Jon is not >> responsive enough, soon will be an IANA-ng organization and you will be >> able to submit your request to a committee and it will be decided. >> Patience. > >Sorry, but I'm very impatient. I've registered a domain two months ago. >It was a domain in regional subdomain of PL ccTLD. Two weeks after reg. >the .pl adm (NASK) send me such a letter: > >"If we will give regional domains to regions, we will do it with all >registered subdomains." > >It's obvious, what's the difference, where the delegation of my domain >will be hold. Last week they've done it, but the first move of new adm. >was deleting my delegations. Two days ago I was talking with president of >NASK and... > >P. of NASK - "It's your problem, it isn't our domain" >Me - "You have took money for this" >P. of NASK - "It is not our problem." > >How long I've got to wait for decision of court or IANA-ng (if...); >a year? > >Regards, >Artur > >ps. New administrator isn't answering my emails. > > -------- Logged at Mon Aug 31 10:54:56 MET DST 1998 ---------

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BG TLD
by veni＠isoc.bg 29 Aug '98

29 Aug '98

Well, I not only sent hundreds of e-mail, putting together all the emails, conversation and seminars held in Bulgaria about it, I've also asked and have received a positive answer to put this "Open letter" in the web - you can see it at many locations, including http://www.bol.bg/protest/ and http://www.isoc.bg, and http://www.kit.bg and many other. But I'll write you more later on today, when I can take a better look at your mails. It's been a busy week, and for the past 2 days I am having a flu and about 38 degrees C. have a good weekend, yours as usual sincerely, veni -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Karrenberg <Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net> To: E D Danielyan <edd at aic.net> Cc: veni at isoc.bg <veni at isoc.bg>; centr at ripe.net <centr at ripe.net>; tld-wg at ripe.net <tld-wg at ripe.net> Date: 28 aWGUST 1998 G. 12:49 Subject: Re: BG TLD > >Edgar, > >*very* well said. This has ben pointed out to Veni numerous times in >private correspondence. > >Daniel > > > E D Danielyan <edd at aic.net> writes: > > > > ... file wrongful > > conduct action against BG NIC in your country and make Internet > > community in Bulgaria aware of the situation: if your rights, or rights > > of public are not honored, it is your and public's responsibility to > > defend and enforce them. Internet isn't a monarchy and Dr. Postel > > isn't a king. > -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 14:31:55 MET DST 1998 ---------

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CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers
by JimFleming＠unety.net 29 Aug '98

29 Aug '98

-----Original Message----- From: Randy Bush <randy at psg.com> To: Adam Todd <at at ah.net> Cc: centr at ripe.net <centr at ripe.net>; centr-info at ripe.net <centr-info at ripe.net>; tld-wg at ripe.net <tld-wg at ripe.net> Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 8:33 PM Subject: Re: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers >> OK, Randy, I have some bad news for an irrelevant fantasy there are a lot >> of people dreaming ... and it grows - every day. > >cool. then use your other email address on all internet subscriptions and >mail. > I wonder when the day will come that people suggest that people use a native-mode IPv6 system to only communicate with other people using such systems. People could leave the entire IPv4 internet for the vultures to pick apart. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 10:48:04 MET DST 1998 ---------

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BG TLD
by veni＠isoc.bg 29 Aug '98

29 Aug '98

>No Randy they didn't try to get outsiders to rectify the problem. They >went to IANA to have the problem solved in accordance with the protocol. and if IANA has answered us AFTER reviewing the whole case, there wouldn't have been a problem. After all we DIDN'T want to change the current TLDA! We just want them to follow rules which are created by another organization, and not an ISP, what's the case today. It is not possible to have an ISP as an independent TLDA, esp. when the .bg TLDA is breaking even IANA & RIPE own rules! rgrds, Veni Markovski, Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/ phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 9806431 mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 10:44:52 MET DST 1998 ---------

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BG TLD
by veni＠isoc.bg 29 Aug '98

29 Aug '98

OK, Here are some messages that have been sent to some people & organizations, Daniel Karrenberg included: (number 2 and 4 are pretty interesting:-) I think I've done what's needed - organized group of people (rather, they came to me, but it's another story...), have them on the web, have Digsys at the Fair Trade Comission, etc, etc. However, it seems the wisest will be to advise the Government to take control over it - at least we can have control to some extent over the government via the parlament. ====== 1: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:13:37 +0200 (GMT+0200) >From: Veni Markovski <veni at mail.bol.bg> >To: Daniel Karrenberg <Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net> >Cc: Niall.oReilly at ucd.ie, burack at isoc.org, iana at iana.org, vcerf at mci.net, > Don Heath <heath at isoc.org>, Jon Postel <postel at isi.edu> >Subject: Re: RIPE meeting and the situation in Bulgarian TLDA > >On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Daniel Karrenberg wrote: > >> [cut] >Dear collegues, >I understand your position "If something is working, don't touch it", but >after all, and I am not going to get tired repeating it, our point is >that the current TLDA may keep on being a TLDA, but the rules after which >they conduct their behaviour should be created not by the TLDA himself, >but from an NGO. >You can read more about this idea at >http://www.ibm.com/othervoices/levine/february1398155624.phtml > >There is nothing wrong in our request. >There is something wrong in the fact that this simple request is being >turned down by the hostmaster, by IANA, and by RIPE. > >The Internet should not be a tool for unfair competition. >The Internet in Bulgaria will definitely NOT become a place where one >organization (the hostmaster) can dictate the conditions for using the >net to the rest of the Internauts. If you don't want to, can not, or are >not willing to help us in our appeal for creating publicly accepted >rules, then perhaps we'll have to search for another way. > >However, I think that you could still read at >http://www.bol.bg/protest/protest_e.htm >that a huge amount of serious players in Bulgaria are against this >discriminating policy. > >Losing hope, >regards, >veni > > ==== 2: the next one is very interesting, as .bg TLDA respondedn to Vint, but never have sent me a contract. -----Original Message----- From: vinton g. cerf <vcerf at MCI.NET> To: veni markovski <veni at isoc.bg> Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 2:22 PM Subject: Re: contract for paying the domain names Digsys responded and said they would be pleased to execute a contract with you. They claim that charging is well within reason and the law. ====== 3: -----Original Message----- From: veni markovski <veni at isoc.bg> To: vinton g. cerf <vcerf at MCI.NET> Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 2:17 PM Subject: Re: contract for paying the domain names >Oh, >let's put it briefly: >the local TLDA is an ISP. They started from back date to charge for domain >names ($ 50 start up fee, $ 50 / yearly fee). They introduced this price in >mid January, but said it's since January 1st. The protest of some of the >Internauts is listed in many web sites in the country. I'm attaching it to >this message. >As a lawyer, and as a normal citizen, I don't think what DigSys (the local >TLDA) did was correct. On the contrary: >- it's against the laws (FTC is already informed and taking actions against >them), >- it's not bringing consensus in the internet community in Bulgaria; >- it's not fair, if you want, for an ISP to take money for fulfilling their >"public service" > >We proposed the organization of an NGO to handle the TLDAdministration, >which will issue to an ISP the right to keep the name server(s). I wrote to >IANA directly after a message from them, that they would not respond to a >CC: message (why not?), but since January 15th there's no answer! No answer >from IANA, from RIPE, from Digsys, from ISOC... > >Why do I waste time? Well, since for one year I'm a practising judge, >prosecutor, investigator, (that's part of my law education), I have time. > >I'll make sure no one in Bulgaria will ever have this right to decide what >the Internauts should do. I am also involved in the development of the new >law on Information, and have opposed directly the intentions of the >government to control the information provided in the web space in Bulgaria. >If nothing works out, and we all let them (digsys, the government) censure >the content on the Internet, then perhaps I am in the wrong country or in >the wrong time. But my sense of honesty and fairness is suffering when I can >not do anything to help the internauts... > >Anyway, I know the last way would be to go in court, and I think I can do >that to protect a broken right. > >yours, >veni ====== This one is also pretty interesting. It seems Mr. Postel hasn't read http://www.bol.bg/protest/ 4: -----Original Message----- From: postel at ISI.EDU <postel at ISI.EDU> To: veni at isoc.bg <veni at isoc.bg> Cc: daniel at dcave.digsys.bg <daniel at dcave.digsys.bg>; postel at ISI.EDU <postel at ISI.EDU>; iana at ISI.EDU <iana at ISI.EDU>; isoc-eu at imag.fr <isoc-eu at imag.fr>; Bruno.Oudet at imag.fr <Bruno.Oudet at imag.fr>; vcerf at MCI.NET <vcerf at MCI.NET>; ISOC-TRUSTEES at listserv.isoc.org <ISOC-TRUSTEES at listserv.isoc.org> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 12:28 AM Subject: Bulgarian situation > >Veni Markovski: > >The IANA certainly agrees that the selection of a management authority >for a country code TLD should be based on the consensus of all >interested parties in the country. This is often hard to accomplish. > >However, complaints from one person do not demonstrate that a consensus >does not exist, or that the current management needs to be replaced. > >We have received your many messages complaining about the managemnent >of the .BG ccTLD. > >We have reviewed these matters several times with the current manager >of the .BG domain and found the responses to be quite reasonable. > >--jon. > -----Original Message----- From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming at unety.net> To: E D Danielyan <edd at aic.net>; veni at isoc.bg <veni at isoc.bg> Cc: centr at ripe.net <centr at ripe.net>; tld-wg at ripe.net <tld-wg at ripe.net>; rsctalk at ah.net <rsctalk at ah.net> Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 2:11 PM Subject: Re: BG TLD > >-----Original Message----- >From: E D Danielyan <edd at aic.net> >To: veni at isoc.bg <veni at isoc.bg> >Cc: centr at ripe.net <centr at ripe.net>; tld-wg at ripe.net <tld-wg at ripe.net> >Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 4:43 AM >Subject: Re: BG TLD > > >> >> >>Dear Veni: >> >>> I mean, we (ISOC-Bulgaria) tried everything, and it wouldn't work. The >>> current ccTLD system is rotten - at least in the .bg case. Ergo, we have >to >>> find an alternative. >> >>With all respect for you, Veni, you do not have to find an alternative - >>you have to defend your viewpoint. I'd advise you to forward all >correspondence >>between you and Dr. Postel to this list for public consideration; >afterwards, >>if you believe you're right, file wrongful conduct action against BG NIC in >>your country and make Internet community in Bulgaria aware of the >situation: >>if your rights, or rights of public are not honored, it is your and >public's >>responsibility to defend and enforce them. Internet isn't a monarchy and >>Dr. Postel isn't a king. >> >>Yours >>Edgar >>AM NIC >> >> > >I agree and would further suggest that >this be handled in the G3 region as much >as possible with the help of the "neighbor net" >community for the .BG TLD. In a growing >Internet, Jon Postel or a small IANA staff >will not be able to sort out all of the local >issues. People in the "region" can help >with that. That is one of the merits of >socializing these discussions. > >Does anyone have the current "neighbor net" >for the .BG TLD which I assume is in G3 ? > > >Jim Fleming >Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com > > > -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 18:00:26 MET DST 1998 ---------

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