May 1998 - tld-wg - mailman.ripe.net

IPv8 and ATM
by JimFleming＠unety.net 19 May '98

19 May '98

On Monday, May 18, 1998 3:22 AM, Michael Dillon[SMTP:michael at memra.com] wrote: <snip> @ @It is my studied opinion that Jim Fleming is not demented, that he has a @specific goal in his provocateur activities and that he is likely being @paid to do this by the U.S. telco industry. By the way Michael, just because IPv8 was designed with ATM mind and IPv6 was designed to break ATM is not my fault. That was a choice made by the people behind IPv6, not me. I can not help it if the IPv6 designers did not understand advanced routing or where circuit switching comes into play. By them taking an anti-telco position as engineers, they cut off their nose to spite their face. Now you have to live with the result, not me. IPv4 and IPv6 are like railroad technology. They are determined to keep the cars on the track and travelling from one city to the next. It is called the World Wide Wait by consumers. IPv8 on the other hand is more like airline technology. We load the passengers (packets) and taxi like a railroad but then we allow the passengers to leave the tracks and fly via ATM circuit switching near the final destination where the passengers land on railroad tracks for final delivery. We use the best of both worlds. Some call that demented. I am glad to see that you have changed your mind from your previous attempts to work with other ISOC and IETF members to attack me and my family personally. I must say this is encouraging. Maybe I should ask Don Heath if I should still be concerned about his friends killing my parents with fire axes. What is the status of that Don ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM -------- Logged at Tue May 19 03:34:25 MET DST 1998 ---------

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Internet Governance
by JimFleming＠unety.net 18 May '98

18 May '98

On Monday, May 18, 1998 2:05 PM, Scott Averbach[SMTP:saverbac at hway.net] wrote: <snip> @ @If you enjoy inventing things and seeing people communicate why not come up @with a proposal of your own for addressing issues rather than pointing @fingers? Wouldn't that be along your lines of thinking as stated below? @ Scott, You seem to be missing some key background information. You seem to be making the assumption that all of the Internet Governance issues are in the private sector and the U.S. Government has decided to stick its nose into these matters. This is not the case. For years, and still to this day, many people and companies are operating with U.S. Government contracts and funding. They derive their "authority" from the U.S. Government. Do not let them tell you otherwise. Also, note that they are gaining financially from being U.S. Government contractors. They never seem to want to mention that. They somehow have people fooled into thinking they are non-profit volunteers with a strong dedication to the Internet. This is hardly the case. All discussions are currently focused on the U.S. Government and its policies. This is being done because the U.S. Government does not always have a good working knowledge of the Internet. They allowed their contractors to get too far afield without the proper oversight. That is now going to change. How that changes and what the final result looks like will be influenced by all concerned citizens helping the U.S. Government find the best approach any collection of people can develop given the time alloted, which has been years. If the U.S. Government's solution is a 100% withdrawal of all funding, contracts, influence, etc. then I think that you will see a very different set of discussions. Until the time (which is reported to be soon) that the U.S. Government develops and states their position we have to operate under the assumption that all companies enganged in IPv4 allocations and Domain Name sales and service are part of the U.S. Government's arena and as such are subject to public scrutiny and the extra laws that many companies do not have to be concerned about. Just because you might desire to paint a picture that one or more companies or people are outside of the U.S. Government's boundaries, does not make it so. Also, because companies have not paid for the U.S. Government assets they are using, they have no right to claim those assets in case the U.S. Government decides to pull out of the Internet 100%. Those assets should be sold and are subject to all of the U.S. Government laws regarding the disposal of assets. I am sure that people from the U.S. Government will make this clear to companies that may think they are going to walk away with the assets without government supervision of a sale, even if it is a fire-sale and no one else bids. It still has to happen. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM -------- Logged at Tue May 19 03:21:42 MET DST 1998 ---------

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More on Neighbor Net for .WINE
by JimFleming＠unety.net 18 May '98

18 May '98

On Monday, May 18, 1998 12:25 PM, Scott Averbach[SMTP:saverbac at hway.net] wrote: @One point/question remains unanswered from Michael Dillon's email. Are you @in fact being paid directly or indrectly from any company or organization to @continue these discussions and try to discredit the current @system/organizations that are in place for IPv4 addressing? @ I am compensated from the satisfaction that one obtains when people around the world communicate, especially using networks. That has been the way it has been for over 20 years. I invent things, I give them away, and I enjoy communication. I hope to continue. @What do you hope in attaining thourgh all these talks if you are not being @influeneced in continuing them? @Should I assume that the whole point of bringing this whole talk to light @was the announcement of ARIN's revenue during the first quarter? Why did @you wait till then before you started questioning everything. @ I have been questioning things for many, many years...long before ARIN. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM -------- Logged at Mon May 18 21:05:10 MET DST 1998 ---------

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More on Neighbor Net for .WINE
by JimFleming＠unety.net 18 May '98

18 May '98

On Monday, May 18, 1998 3:22 AM, Michael Dillon[SMTP:michael at memra.com] wrote: @On Mon, 18 May 1998, Jim Fleming wrote: @ @> @Jim is what one science fiction story termed an "agent provocateur" (where, @> @when the world is totally wired and everyone is on email, along comes a @> @person who talks the talk and walks the walk but is a bit demented and only @> @a few people can see thru his techno-mumbo-jumbo as being garbage). His @> @purpose in life is to drum up controversy and to have people run off in @> @directions that are unproductive. @ @It is my studied opinion that Jim Fleming is not demented, that he has a @specific goal in his provocateur activities and that he is likely being @paid to do this by the U.S. telco industry. His goal is to discredit the @Internet governance infrastructure in order to manipulate the U.S. @government into creating an FCC-like regulatory infrastructure for the @Internet. The U.S. telcos (and indeed national PTTs the world over) like @this sort of structure because they know that, with it they can control @the Internet by the same sorts of political manoeuverings they have @perfected over the past several generations. @ @So Hank is basically right that the best response is to take some time to @do more talking to government. However don't be misled by Jim's email spew @into thinking that a few emails to the right places will suffice. It is @far more effective to take the time to write a cogent discussion of the @issues and then snail-mail the document to the government agency. Or to @visit them in person for a face-to-face discussion. @ @-- @Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting @Memra Communications Inc. - E-mail: michael at memra.com @http://www.memra.com - *check out the new name & new website* @ @ Michael, Your participation in the development of the IAHC/CORE plan and Hank Nussbacher's role as a member of the IAHC committee are well known. Also, your involvement with the creation of ARIN and your role on the ARIN Advisory Council are well known. Also, your various attempts to commute from Canada and to work in the United States are well known. Your constant focus on the U.S. ISP marketplace is well known. Why don't you become a U.S. citizen ? Then you could have a larger voice with the U.S. Government. If that is not your pleasure, then I suggest that you lobby the Canadian government to carry your message to the U.S. Government. As for Mr. Nussbacher. He seems concerned that his voice is not being heard in Israel. Despite this, he clearly does not want other voices to be heard. Here is one small example. I selected this example because Mr. Nussbacher was recently trying to convince Annie Renard the .FR (France) TLD administrator not to listen to me. =================================== From: hank at interall.co.il (Hank Nussbacher) Subject: Re: CFV (Call for Votes) : Creation of the israel.francophones newsgroup Date: 18 Dec 1997 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <67bius$prk$1 at news.ibm.net.il> References: <3498F1B2.76DC at hotmail.com> <34993150.DF81644B at orbotech.co.il> Organization: Hank Nussbacher, consulting Newsgroups: israel.news.admin I vote against. Why not use IRC to talk frenchto each other? Why does there have to be a newsgroup to talk in French? -Hank =================================== In all of these cases, it seems clear that we have people like yourself and Mr. Nussbacher who are not working via their governments to make sure your voices are heard. Instead, you seem to think that you can enter the U.S. via electronic networks to dominate this marketplace and the U.S. Government. I have a feeling that the U.S. Government is on the look-out for this type of activity and will listen to their taxpayers before you or Mr. Nussbacher. If they do not, they then have to deal with U.S. taxpayers at the next election or in person. As a U.S. citizen and U.S. taxpayer my recommendation is for the U.S. Government to start dealing with other governments. This will allow them to have the Canadian government present a more balanced view from your country. Likewise, the same can be said for Israel. I encourage you to follow your own advice and contact YOUR government officials. Let the U.S. taxpayers and government officials work together on our own plan. We will let you know how it comes out. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM -------- Logged at Mon May 18 18:47:34 MET DST 1998 ---------

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Making Your Voice Heard
by BERI＠etf.bg.ac.yu 18 May '98

18 May '98

>> I am not sure that Becky Burr and Ira Magaziner and the domain-policy list >> and the tld-wg list care about a 6 month old posting to 6 Israeli specific >> Usenet groups about an ISOC-IL conference, which has absolutely nothing to >> do with anything. TLD-WG, DOMAIN-POLICY, RIPE CENTR ... IPv8, eDNS, AlterNIC ... and then Jim Flemming! Being into Becky Burr's and Ira Magaziner's skin isn't so easy. Their feeling must be as awful as it would be if someone took them to the jungle and kicked them out of the jeep ... leaving them to the mercy of wild cats, snakes, bugs and other creatures! What will they do? Probably, the first thing to do would be to find a good place to hide and stay quiet. And that's exactly what they are doing: having so many sources of diverse information, without explicit knowledge about the historical and other circumstances which led to the current solutions in domain policies - they don't know who to listen to. So, they consider all our efforts just like "noise on the lines". Some people are well aware of that. So, the only thing they would do is to be persistive, to try to make people believe that their solution is "the best one". What can we do? Hide in a hole and pretend nothing is really happening? Or - make MUCH noise and risk that to be misunderstood, according to the Murphy's rule about arguing ("Never argue with a fool - people might not see the difference between the two of you")? In my personal oppinion - making noise is the solution, but doing it in organized manner! How? Simply - just like a RIPE CENTR response to the US Green Paper: writing single periodical messages to Ira Magaziner, Becky Burr and other political folks involved, which would be approved by all (or a majority of) TLD representatives. A single letter, signed by one person per country might make much higher noise than some "isolated islands" of messages, written by a few of us. Besides, like that - we can save time and energy! That was just my 0.1 YU dinars (= 0.0097 US$) ... ;-) Best regards, Beri .-------. | --+-- | Berislav Todorovic, B.Sc.E.E. | E-mail: BERI at etf.bg.ac.yu | /|\ Hostmaster of the YU TLD | |-(-+-)-| School of Electrical Engineering | Phone: (+381-11) 3221-419 | \|/ Bulevar Revolucije 73 | 3370-106 | --+-- | 11000 Belgrade SERBIA, YUGOSLAVIA | Fax: (+381-11) 3248-681 `-------' -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Logged at Mon May 18 18:38:04 MET DST 1998 ---------

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More on Neighbor Net for .WINE
by JimFleming＠unety.net 18 May '98

18 May '98

On Monday, May 18, 1998 3:58 AM, Hank Nussbacher[SMTP:hank at ibm.net.il] wrote: @At 02:41 PM 5/15/98 +0200, Annie Renard wrote: @> @> In your previous mail you wrote: @> @> Until we get the entire list filled in, you may have @> to expand the diameter of your neighbor net to @> include more G:S slots. @> @> http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt @> @> G:S TLD RP Web Site @> -------------------------------------------------- @> 3:207 FR (FRANCE) <------ @> 3:208 ATHENS @> 3:209 FLAKE @> 3:210 DK (DENMARK) <------- @> 3:211 MLT (MALTA) <----- @> 3:212 VIDEO @> 3:213 WINE <---------- jc.praud at ludexpress.com ?? web site ?? @> 3:214 RAILWAY @> 3:215 BALLOON @> 3:216 SVK (SLOVAKIA-(Slovak-Republic)) <----- @> 3:217 DNK (DENMARK) <----- @> 3:218 GRC (GREECE) <----- @> -------------------------------------------------- @> @> The following is a good source of leads for the above @> TLDs with the arrows. @> @> http://www.ripe.net/centr/tld.html @> @> For slots where we can not locate people, for example, @> 3:215 BALLOON, the people around that slot become @> the "managers" of the slot and help someone introduce @> a new TLD alias for the slot. @> @> For example, David Rogers might want to use that slot @> for the .LTD TLD he is working on. Via the neighbor net @> approach, people can easily find a slot and add a new @> TLD that does not conflict with other TLDs. This is very @> much like entering an auditorium with 2,048 seats, @> looking around, and asking people..."is that seat taken ?". @> @>>>> what is this raving ??? @ @Annie, @ @Jim is what one science fiction story termed an "agent provocateur" (where, @when the world is totally wired and everyone is on email, along comes a @person who talks the talk and walks the walk but is a bit demented and only @a few people can see thru his techno-mumbo-jumbo as being garbage). His @purpose in life is to drum up controversy and to have people run off in @directions that are unproductive. Becky Burr, Ira Magaziner, Wilkenson and @other political people cannot often differentiate people who know what they @are talking about and others who mention IPv8 and who sound knowledgable. @ @It is our responsibility to make sure that our voice is heard and not Jim's. @He emails more than we do, he is far more persistent than we are, but if we @fail to counter his "ravings" - we will soon see people discussing the @benefits of stargates and IPv8 galaxies and balloons. @ @-Hank @ Hank, Some people remember that you were a member of the Blue Ribbon IAHC. Just because you did not get mentioned in the list below does not mean that you are not remembered. ================= Here are the people that I feel are MOST responsible for the IAHC/CORE plan. I hope that history remembers what they have contributed in this area. 1. Jon Postel - IANA/USC/ISI 2. Don Heath - ISOC 3. Dave Crocker - IMC 4. Robert Shaw - ITU 5. George Strawn - NSF 6. David Maher - McDonalds 7. John Gilmore - EFF 8. Vinton Cerf - MCI 9. Michael Dillon - Priori 10. Gordon Cook - Cook Report 11. Perry Metzger - NY 12. Bill Manning - USC/ISI 13. Scott Bradner - ISOC 14. Ken Crispin - LBL 15. Rick Wesson - SF/CA ================= I find it interesting to read that you think your voice should be heard over others. In my opinion, your voice has been heard and many people have decided, on their own, to listen to other voices. This is what freedom and choice are all about, at least in the United States of America. You might want to keep that in mind over there in Israel. Also, you might want to note that your recent request to have me removed from the North American Network Operators (NANOG) mailing list (partly funded by U.S. Government grants) was not well received. I am curious why you think that you can sit over there in Israel and dictate who should and should not be on a public mailing list in the U.S. Is this the sort of thinking that came from being on the IAHC ? Please explain in more detail what you are trying to do... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM -------- Logged at Mon May 18 15:00:20 MET DST 1998 ---------

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Making Your Voice Heard
by hank＠ibm.net.il 18 May '98

18 May '98

At 07:54 AM 5/18/98 -0500, Jim Fleming wrote: I am not sure that Becky Burr and Ira Magaziner and the domain-policy list and the tld-wg list care about a 6 month old posting to 6 Israeli specific Usenet groups about an ISOC-IL conference, which has absolutely nothing to do with anything. -Hank > >Hank, > >I do not think that people like myself and others should be >required to advertise your meetings of the the Internet Society >in Israel. I think that it is up to you to join the various open >discussions in these areas and tell people what you are doing. > >You and Scott Bradner should be pros at this by now. > >I am sorry that people may have missed your meeting below. >Maybe next year you can make it more widely known. That is >your job, not my job. > >In the meantime, we can try to make people aware that there >are many activities going on behind the scenes. Just because >myself and others are focused on the U.S. Government's >activities does not mean they are the only events that matter. >If you recall I recently pointed out an ISOC event that just >took place in Washington, D.C. <http://www.dcisoc.org>. >We try to make people aware of everything that is happening. >It helps to know in advance of the meeting. Also, be sensitive >to the fact that people are still free to choose whether they >want to attend your events and listen to you. > >Jim Fleming > > >======================== > >From: hank at interall.co.il (Hank Nussbacher) >Subject: Internet Society of Israel conference registration now open >Date: 08 Dec 1997 00:00:00 GMT >Message-ID: <66gama$q2i$4 at news.ibm.net.il> >Organization: Hank Nussbacher, consulting >Newsgroups: israel.amix,israel.internet,israel.irc,israel.jobs.misc,israel.lists.aix-il, israel.news.admin > > >The Internet Society of Israel is pleased to announce that registration to its >conference to take place on Jan 7th, 1998 at Kfar Hamacabiah is now open >at http://www.isoc.org.il/conf98 > >Registration can be done online via our secure server or you can contact >the conference organizers directly. > >This years guest speaker will be Scott Bradner who is an area chair in the >IETF, a member of the IESG and a Trustee of ISOC. He was also codirector >of the IETF IP next generation effort and is coeditor of "IPng: Internet >Protocol Next Generation" from Addison-Wesley. He also runs the famous >Harvard Benchmark Lab and is a weekly columnist for Network World. > >Hank Nussbacher >ISOC-IL Board member > >========================= > > >- >Jim Fleming >Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net >IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race >AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > -------- Logged at Mon May 18 15:49:12 MET DST 1998 ---------

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Making Your Voice Heard
by JimFleming＠unety.net 18 May '98

18 May '98

On Monday, May 18, 1998 9:33 AM, Hank Nussbacher[SMTP:hank at ibm.net.il] wrote: @At 07:54 AM 5/18/98 -0500, Jim Fleming wrote: @ @I am not sure that Becky Burr and Ira Magaziner and the domain-policy list @and the tld-wg list care about a 6 month old posting to 6 Israeli specific @Usenet groups about an ISOC-IL conference, which has absolutely nothing to @do with anything. @ @-Hank @ Since you are not sure, let me explain. You have been complaining that your voice is not being heard. I was pointing out that it is up to you and people like Scott Bradner to make sure your voice is heard. Now, you seem to prefer to do that by censoring people, by having people removed from the discussions. I suppose that would make it easier for you and Scott Bradner to be heard, but I do not think that is acceptable to the majority of people. As for being specific to Israel. You might want to work with the government officials in Israel to make sure that they formulate a policy that helps to make your voice heard louder in the U.S. That is something I do not think that you have done. I do not recall seeing anything from the government in Israel on the U.S. Government's web site where these comments get posted. Again...I do not think that it is my job to help you get your message out. I know that Scott Bradner submitted material to the U.S. Government because it is listed along with other "paper" submittals. Here is the URL. http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/scanned/index.html As for submissions from you or Israel, I suggest that you provide the links to those. It is not our job to help you make your voice be heard. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM -------- Logged at Mon May 18 17:08:15 MET DST 1998 ---------

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Making Your Voice Heard
by JimFleming＠unety.net 18 May '98

18 May '98

Hank, I do not think that people like myself and others should be required to advertise your meetings of the the Internet Society in Israel. I think that it is up to you to join the various open discussions in these areas and tell people what you are doing. You and Scott Bradner should be pros at this by now. I am sorry that people may have missed your meeting below. Maybe next year you can make it more widely known. That is your job, not my job. In the meantime, we can try to make people aware that there are many activities going on behind the scenes. Just because myself and others are focused on the U.S. Government's activities does not mean they are the only events that matter. If you recall I recently pointed out an ISOC event that just took place in Washington, D.C. <http://www.dcisoc.org>. We try to make people aware of everything that is happening. It helps to know in advance of the meeting. Also, be sensitive to the fact that people are still free to choose whether they want to attend your events and listen to you. Jim Fleming ======================== From: hank at interall.co.il (Hank Nussbacher) Subject: Internet Society of Israel conference registration now open Date: 08 Dec 1997 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <66gama$q2i$4 at news.ibm.net.il> Organization: Hank Nussbacher, consulting Newsgroups: israel.amix,israel.internet,israel.irc,israel.jobs.misc,israel.lists.aix-il,israel.news.admin The Internet Society of Israel is pleased to announce that registration to its conference to take place on Jan 7th, 1998 at Kfar Hamacabiah is now open at http://www.isoc.org.il/conf98 Registration can be done online via our secure server or you can contact the conference organizers directly. This years guest speaker will be Scott Bradner who is an area chair in the IETF, a member of the IESG and a Trustee of ISOC. He was also codirector of the IETF IP next generation effort and is coeditor of "IPng: Internet Protocol Next Generation" from Addison-Wesley. He also runs the famous Harvard Benchmark Lab and is a weekly columnist for Network World. Hank Nussbacher ISOC-IL Board member ========================= - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM -------- Logged at Mon May 18 15:33:49 MET DST 1998 ---------

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More on Neighbor Net for .WINE
by hank＠ibm.net.il 18 May '98

18 May '98

At 02:41 PM 5/15/98 +0200, Annie Renard wrote: > > In your previous mail you wrote: > > Until we get the entire list filled in, you may have > to expand the diameter of your neighbor net to > include more G:S slots. > > http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt > > G:S TLD RP Web Site > -------------------------------------------------- > 3:207 FR (FRANCE) <------ > 3:208 ATHENS > 3:209 FLAKE > 3:210 DK (DENMARK) <------- > 3:211 MLT (MALTA) <----- > 3:212 VIDEO > 3:213 WINE <---------- jc.praud at ludexpress.com ?? web site ?? > 3:214 RAILWAY > 3:215 BALLOON > 3:216 SVK (SLOVAKIA-(Slovak-Republic)) <----- > 3:217 DNK (DENMARK) <----- > 3:218 GRC (GREECE) <----- > -------------------------------------------------- > > The following is a good source of leads for the above > TLDs with the arrows. > > http://www.ripe.net/centr/tld.html > > For slots where we can not locate people, for example, > 3:215 BALLOON, the people around that slot become > the "managers" of the slot and help someone introduce > a new TLD alias for the slot. > > For example, David Rogers might want to use that slot > for the .LTD TLD he is working on. Via the neighbor net > approach, people can easily find a slot and add a new > TLD that does not conflict with other TLDs. This is very > much like entering an auditorium with 2,048 seats, > looking around, and asking people..."is that seat taken ?". > >>>> what is this raving ??? Annie, Jim is what one science fiction story termed an "agent provocateur" (where, when the world is totally wired and everyone is on email, along comes a person who talks the talk and walks the walk but is a bit demented and only a few people can see thru his techno-mumbo-jumbo as being garbage). His purpose in life is to drum up controversy and to have people run off in directions that are unproductive. Becky Burr, Ira Magaziner, Wilkenson and other political people cannot often differentiate people who know what they are talking about and others who mention IPv8 and who sound knowledgable. It is our responsibility to make sure that our voice is heard and not Jim's. He emails more than we do, he is far more persistent than we are, but if we fail to counter his "ravings" - we will soon see people discussing the benefits of stargates and IPv8 galaxies and balloons. -Hank > Yours, > >--- > Annie Renard [nic at nic.fr] > AFNIC/NIC France > c/o INRIA domaine de Voluceau BP105, 78153 Le Chesnay CEDEX, France > http://www.nic.fr/ > Personal Email: Annie.Renard at nic.fr > > -------- Logged at Mon May 18 14:27:34 MET DST 1998 ---------

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