Dear all, I've been observing various efforts towards constructing a safe and inclusive environment both at RIPE meetings and our online platforms. I appreciate these efforts, however, I have some concerns with the process and our ability to execute. A careful observer may see that the next generation of Internet engineers is not quite like the current establishment. I believe this diversity needs to be acknowledged in our policies. We owe it to them to create an environment that contributes to their comfort and well being. I recorded some thoughts on my way to RIPE - https://youtu.be/6_dLgcfv8kU Kind regards, Job
On 17/10/2019 16:24, Job Snijders wrote:
Dear all,
I've been observing various efforts towards constructing a safe and inclusive environment both at RIPE meetings and our online platforms.
I have not been to as many meetings as you but I have never seen any incident, even in the slightest, where the people attending were acting inappropriately in any sort of way. I consider RIPE meetings extremely safe and inclusive, so just paint me clueless as to what the issue is. Regards, Hank
I appreciate these efforts, however, I have some concerns with the process and our ability to execute.
A careful observer may see that the next generation of Internet engineers is not quite like the current establishment. I believe this diversity needs to be acknowledged in our policies. We owe it to them to create an environment that contributes to their comfort and well being.
I recorded some thoughts on my way to RIPE - https://youtu.be/6_dLgcfv8kU
Kind regards,
Job
Perhaps you are not the one being harassed and the folks who are haven't told you about their experiences. Leslie On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 6:57 AM Hank Nussbacher <hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> wrote:
On 17/10/2019 16:24, Job Snijders wrote:
Dear all,
I've been observing various efforts towards constructing a safe and inclusive environment both at RIPE meetings and our online platforms.
I have not been to as many meetings as you but I have never seen any incident, even in the slightest, where the people attending were acting inappropriately in any sort of way. I consider RIPE meetings extremely safe and inclusive, so just paint me clueless as to what the issue is.
Regards, Hank
I appreciate these efforts, however, I have some concerns with the process and our ability to execute.
A careful observer may see that the next generation of Internet engineers is not quite like the current establishment. I believe this diversity needs to be acknowledged in our policies. We owe it to them to create an environment that contributes to their comfort and well being.
I recorded some thoughts on my way to RIPE - https://youtu.be/6_dLgcfv8kU
Kind regards,
Job
On 17/10/2019 17:00, Leslie wrote: Indeed. I am clueless since I haven't seen a single incident message among the various mailing lists. I would expect that RIPE should name and shame those harassing people at meetings. I am truly speechless that this goes on in 2019. -Hank
Perhaps you are not the one being harassed and the folks who are haven't told you about their experiences.
Leslie
On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 6:57 AM Hank Nussbacher <hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> wrote:
On 17/10/2019 16:24, Job Snijders wrote:
Dear all,
I've been observing various efforts towards constructing a safe and inclusive environment both at RIPE meetings and our online platforms. I have not been to as many meetings as you but I have never seen any incident, even in the slightest, where the people attending were acting inappropriately in any sort of way. I consider RIPE meetings extremely safe and inclusive, so just paint me clueless as to what the issue is.
Regards, Hank
I appreciate these efforts, however, I have some concerns with the process and our ability to execute.
A careful observer may see that the next generation of Internet engineers is not quite like the current establishment. I believe this diversity needs to be acknowledged in our policies. We owe it to them to create an environment that contributes to their comfort and well being.
I recorded some thoughts on my way to RIPE - https://youtu.be/6_dLgcfv8kU
Kind regards,
Job
On 17/10/2019 16:08, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
On 17/10/2019 17:00, Leslie wrote:
Indeed. I am clueless since I haven't seen a single incident message among the various mailing lists. I would expect that RIPE should name and shame those harassing people at meetings. I am truly speechless that this goes on in 2019. I, too, am speechless.
-Hank
Perhaps you are not the one being harassed and the folks who are haven't told you about their experiences.
Leslie
On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 6:57 AM Hank Nussbacher <hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> wrote:
On 17/10/2019 16:24, Job Snijders wrote:
Dear all,
I've been observing various efforts towards constructing a safe and inclusive environment both at RIPE meetings and our online platforms. I have not been to as many meetings as you but I have never seen any incident, even in the slightest, where the people attending were acting inappropriately in any sort of way. I consider RIPE meetings extremely safe and inclusive, so just paint me clueless as to what the issue is.
Regards, Hank
I appreciate these efforts, however, I have some concerns with the process and our ability to execute.
A careful observer may see that the next generation of Internet engineers is not quite like the current establishment. I believe this diversity needs to be acknowledged in our policies. We owe it to them to create an environment that contributes to their comfort and well being.
I recorded some thoughts on my way to RIPE - https://youtu.be/6_dLgcfv8kU
Kind regards,
Job
And so if this is indeed something people experience we need to fix it now. Thanks, Melchior On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 4:10 PM Amanda Gowland <agowland@ripe.net> wrote:
On 17/10/2019 16:08, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
On 17/10/2019 17:00, Leslie wrote:
Indeed. I am clueless since I haven't seen a single incident message among the various mailing lists. I would expect that RIPE should name and shame those harassing people at meetings. I am truly speechless that this goes on in 2019. I, too, am speechless.
-Hank
Perhaps you are not the one being harassed and the folks who are haven't told you about their experiences.
Leslie
On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 6:57 AM Hank Nussbacher <hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> wrote:
On 17/10/2019 16:24, Job Snijders wrote:
Dear all,
I've been observing various efforts towards constructing a safe and inclusive environment both at RIPE meetings and our online platforms. I have not been to as many meetings as you but I have never seen any incident, even in the slightest, where the people attending were acting inappropriately in any sort of way. I consider RIPE meetings extremely safe and inclusive, so just paint me clueless as to what the issue is.
Regards, Hank
I appreciate these efforts, however, I have some concerns with the process and our ability to execute.
A careful observer may see that the next generation of Internet engineers is not quite like the current establishment. I believe this diversity needs to be acknowledged in our policies. We owe it to them to create an environment that contributes to their comfort and well being.
I recorded some thoughts on my way to RIPE - https://youtu.be/6_dLgcfv8kU
Kind regards,
Job
On 17 Oct 2019, at 15:08, Hank Nussbacher <hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> wrote:
I would expect that RIPE should name and shame those harassing people at meetings.
Naming and shaming may not be the best or most effective way to deal with idiots who behave inappropriately. I wonder too if we are capable of producing a legally watertight definition of harrassment which could underpin a naming and shaming approach. If I feel harrassed by someone (for some definition of harrassed), is that enough to name and shame? IMO shunning/banishing people seems to be more appropriate for a mediaeval cult and I hope we don't go down that path. Can we consider other ways of dealing with behaviour which is wrong?
Jim,
-----Original Message----- From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Jim Reid Sent: Thursday 17 October 2019 15:47 To: Hank Nussbacher <hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> Cc: RIPE List <ripe-list@ripe.net>; diversity@ripe.net Subject: Re: [ripe-list] Towards a more inclusive community
On 17 Oct 2019, at 15:08, Hank Nussbacher <hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> wrote:
I would expect that RIPE should name and shame those harassing people at
meetings.
Naming and shaming may not be the best or most effective way to deal with idiots who behave inappropriately. I wonder too if we are capable of producing a legally watertight definition of harrassment which could underpin a naming and shaming approach. If I feel harrassed by someone (for some definition of harrassed), is that enough to name and shame?
IMO shunning/banishing people seems to be more appropriate for a mediaeval cult and I hope we don't go down that path. Can we consider other ways of dealing with behaviour which is wrong?
Asking someone to leave a meeting or, as an extension of that, asking them to leave and telling them they may not come back for subsequent meetings (whether forever or for a period) is very much at the end of any list of actions anyone wishes to take as part of the enforcement of a CoC. That said, if someone is found to be continually disruptive or problematic, or if their presence is clearly keeping other people away etc. then we should not be afraid of taking that step. It needs to be taken carefully, of course, and at no point should it be something that can be easily or arbitrarily done, but it must be possible, or else we, as a community, are saying that the right of a harmful person to attend a meeting outweighs the right of those they harm to do similar. And in those circumstances I think the community needs to carefully consider what we want more, and what we feel is the best for that community in the short, medium and long terms. Certainly for me the answer is that this tool must exist, to hope to never have to use it, but to know that if it is necessary, then it will be used. And, of course, as Hans Petter points out, it's already in there, v3.0 of the CoC actually gives more clarity around the process for invoking it. Brian Brian Nisbet Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
On 21 Oct 2019, at 09:20, Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> wrote:
And, of course, as Hans Petter points out, it's already in there, v3.0 of the CoC actually gives more clarity around the process for invoking it.
The “we’ve always done that” argument is not progressive or open-minded or receptive to change. The TF need to consider other options. A range of sanctions are possible. It would be good to know what ones were discussed by the TF and why they were accepted or rejected.
Hi Hans, I can tell you that I've been harassed in this RIR and another RIR meetings, both by email and in person, just because I'm contributing. Just because my views in my policy proposal are different than the view of other people. People yelled me in the mic, insulted me by email, but the most terrible thing was trying to scare me with "you will return home in a box" if you keep going this path. Of course, I'm not scared at all, but I'm sure some people could feel scared, not come to meetings and even more, stop contributing in the lists. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 17/10/19 16:09, "ripe-list en nombre de Hank Nussbacher" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> escribió: On 17/10/2019 17:00, Leslie wrote: Indeed. I am clueless since I haven't seen a single incident message among the various mailing lists. I would expect that RIPE should name and shame those harassing people at meetings. I am truly speechless that this goes on in 2019. -Hank > Perhaps you are not the one being harassed and the folks who are > haven't told you about their experiences. > > Leslie > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 6:57 AM Hank Nussbacher <hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> wrote: >> On 17/10/2019 16:24, Job Snijders wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I've been observing various efforts towards constructing a safe and >>> inclusive environment both at RIPE meetings and our online platforms. >> I have not been to as many meetings as you but I have never seen any >> incident, even in the slightest, where the people attending were acting >> inappropriately in any sort of way. I consider RIPE meetings >> extremely safe and inclusive, so just paint me clueless as to what the >> issue is. >> >> Regards, >> Hank >> >> >>> I appreciate these efforts, however, I have some concerns with the >>> process and our ability to execute. >>> >>> A careful observer may see that the next generation of Internet >>> engineers is not quite like the current establishment. I believe this >>> diversity needs to be acknowledged in our policies. We owe it to them >>> to create an environment that contributes to their comfort and well >>> being. >>> >>> I recorded some thoughts on my way to RIPE - https://youtu.be/6_dLgcfv8kU >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Job >>> >> ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
I agree with Hank. RIPE79 meeting was my 2nd RIPE meeting together with 3 other collegues (It was their first meeting) They all agree with me that it was very easy to make contact and everybody was very polite and open. One of my collegues has a bad experience of being looked after in public because of his length (not so tall) , but at the RIPE meeting he did not experience this. Imho naming and shaming is not the correct solution to address inacceptable behaviour. It will not be easy to ban out all inacceptable behaviour, as we are a representation of "the world". Maybe it's also an idea to get in contact with some schools in post-secondary education in System and Network engineering to make students aware of the RIPE community to lower the average age of the visitors. regards Rinse Op 17-10-2019 om 15:54 schreef Hank Nussbacher:
On 17/10/2019 16:24, Job Snijders wrote:
Dear all,
I've been observing various efforts towards constructing a safe and inclusive environment both at RIPE meetings and our online platforms.
I have not been to as many meetings as you but I have never seen any incident, even in the slightest, where the people attending were acting inappropriately in any sort of way. I consider RIPE meetings extremely safe and inclusive, so just paint me clueless as to what the issue is.
Regards, Hank
I appreciate these efforts, however, I have some concerns with the process and our ability to execute.
A careful observer may see that the next generation of Internet engineers is not quite like the current establishment. I believe this diversity needs to be acknowledged in our policies. We owe it to them to create an environment that contributes to their comfort and well being.
I recorded some thoughts on my way to RIPE - https://youtu.be/6_dLgcfv8kU
Kind regards,
Job
-- System- & Network Engineer Solcon Internetdiensten B.V. 06 46194106 Het Spaarne 11 | 8253 PE | Dronten www.solcon.nl
On 17/10/2019 20:15, Rinse Kloek via ripe-list wrote:
Imho naming and shaming is not the correct solution to address inacceptable behaviour. It will not be easy to ban out all inacceptable behaviour, as we are a representation of "the world".
regards Rinse
How does FIRST or IETF handle this issue? -Hank
Hello Job, Thanks for sharing this video with us. You bring up many important points. In the RIPE community plenary on Thursday, Brian and I mentioned that while some community members have concerns about the concept that, in severe cases, people could be made to leave a RIPE meeting, we are currently just as much at risk of scaring people away, and some may have already left, or decided to stay away. The people that silently left or stayed away are, in my experience, also much more likely to be members of already underrepresented groups. In that light, I wanted to share this comment with the list, posted as a comment on your video: "Hm. I've always wanted to visit a ripe meetup, but watching this whole situation from the sidelines has been kind of discouraging. I'm sure if I ask people they're going to tell me it's a great event, but truth is, if it’s anything like the other places I've been where a CoC was controversial, I doubt I'll really feel welcome there. Not sure where I'm going with this but I did want to thank you for your efforts to change things for the better.” Sasha
On 17 Oct 2019, at 15:24, Job Snijders <job@instituut.net> wrote:
Dear all,
I've been observing various efforts towards constructing a safe and inclusive environment both at RIPE meetings and our online platforms. I appreciate these efforts, however, I have some concerns with the process and our ability to execute.
A careful observer may see that the next generation of Internet engineers is not quite like the current establishment. I believe this diversity needs to be acknowledged in our policies. We owe it to them to create an environment that contributes to their comfort and well being.
I recorded some thoughts on my way to RIPE - https://youtu.be/6_dLgcfv8kU
Kind regards,
Job
_______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity
participants (10)
-
Amanda Gowland -
Brian Nisbet -
Hank Nussbacher -
Jim Reid -
Job Snijders -
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ -
Leslie -
Melchior Aelmans -
Rinse Kloek -
Sasha Romijn