Follow up on the Dubai AGM - RIPE WG Chair meeting vouchers
Dear RIPE Community members, During the RIPE GM in Dubai, I raised the question if it is possible to provide the WG (co-) Chairs, with a free meeting voucher for the RIPE meeting. As some of you know, the WG Chairs are present on almost all RIPE meetings, but there is no compensation of any kind for any of the work they put into running the meeting, minutes, agenda’s etc. The only ‘benefit’ of picking up the WG Chair hat … is a WG Chair lunch somewhere during the RIPE meeting … and most of the RIPE WG’s are pretty active and do require actual time and work in order to prepare and keep the WG running between the RIPE meetings. I asked the Executive Board during the GM, if it is possible to add a RIPE meeting voucher for the RIPE WG Chairs as compensation. Every new LIR is getting 2 free vouchers for the RIPE meeting. I think it would be a small gesture to provide the RIPE WG Chairs with a RIPE Meeting ticket for the meeting that they attend as RIPE WG Chair. Intention: If a new WG Chair is selected, he/she will receive a voucher for the next RIPE meeting once the new set of RIPE free ticket spam is being send around the opening of the registration for the next meeting. It is not the intention to get/provide a credit for the meeting that the person is already attending and get selected as a Chair. ( to keep things simple. ) Regards, Erik Bais
On 18 Jan 2018, at 15:06, Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com> wrote:
The only ‘benefit’ of picking up the WG Chair hat … is a WG Chair lunch
That lunch is the same as the one everyone else at the RIPE meeting gets. The only difference is it takes place in another room while a discussion of WG Chair business and meeting coordination takes place.
I asked the Executive Board during the GM, if it is possible to add a RIPE meeting voucher for the RIPE WG Chairs as compensation.
Anything's possible I suppose. However I don't support this suggestion. IMO it's a Very Good Thing that WG Chairs are unpaid volunteers. Giving them freebies from the NCC will change the dynamics: for instance the WG Chairs become (subliminally) dependent on the NCC. We might also see unsuitable people trying to become a WG Chair for the freebies rather than to serve the WG or wider RIPE community.
The PC has the same thing (and my work no longer pays for RIPE, so I am paying for it completely out of pocket). While I would definitely love any financial assistance with the meeting, last time it came up, we had a discussion about RIPE not being a normal conference, and how the cost of a RIPE ticket does not cover the costs of the meeting by far. Basically I'm neutral on the idea -- I'd love it if it happens, but knew what I was signing up for and am okay if it does not. On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 7:27 AM, Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com> wrote:
On 18 Jan 2018, at 15:06, Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com> wrote:
The only ‘benefit’ of picking up the WG Chair hat … is a WG Chair lunch
That lunch is the same as the one everyone else at the RIPE meeting gets. The only difference is it takes place in another room while a discussion of WG Chair business and meeting coordination takes place.
I asked the Executive Board during the GM, if it is possible to add a RIPE meeting voucher for the RIPE WG Chairs as compensation.
Anything's possible I suppose. However I don't support this suggestion. IMO it's a Very Good Thing that WG Chairs are unpaid volunteers. Giving them freebies from the NCC will change the dynamics: for instance the WG Chairs become (subliminally) dependent on the NCC. We might also see unsuitable people trying to become a WG Chair for the freebies rather than to serve the WG or wider RIPE community.
Hi Jim, On 18/01/2018, 16:27, "Jim Reid" <jim@rfc1035.com> wrote:
That lunch is the same as the one everyone else at the RIPE meeting gets. The only difference is it takes place in another room while a discussion of WG Chair business and meeting coordination takes place.
You just broke the complete myth about the greatness of the secret WG Chair lunch …
Anything's possible I suppose. However I don't support this suggestion. IMO it's a Very Good Thing that WG Chairs are unpaid volunteers. Giving them freebies from the NCC will change the dynamics: for instance the WG Chairs become (subliminally) dependent on the NCC. We might also see unsuitable people trying to become a WG Chair for the freebies rather than to serve the WG or wider RIPE community.
I don’t see why people would volunteer, just to get a “free” lunch … The number of tasks and duties that the RIPE WG Chairs needs to do are not even close to comparison on the hours they need to do … In the end we are all paying for this meeting/conference … If we look at just the number of Chairs (and co-Chairs) … we would talk about : about 23 chairs .. not including the actual RIPE Chair itself. and the other mentioned group of voluntairs that Lesley mentioned .. the PC .. we talk about another 12 people. The total “fee” if we take this together .. is 12.600 euro … on a meeting budget of about 400.000 Euro pe meeting (roughly ) … That is not even a single euro per LIR member … And if we actually value the work (and I think we do.. ) I think that we should allow for some form of appreciation for their work and effort. Regards, Erik Bais
On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 09:08:14PM +0000, Erik Bais wrote:
[ snip ]
And if we actually value the work (and I think we do.. ) I think that we should allow for some form of appreciation for their work and effort.
Yes of course we value volunteer work! but does that mean we should treat one group of volunteers differently than another group? In showing appreciation we should avoid creating a rift in the RIPE community. It is the combined work of all involved that make the RIPE meeting what it is. I fear that by financially compensating the RIPE WG Chairs, but not others, we may demotivate regular working group participation. Do participants really put in less hours? Do all chairs consistently invest significantly more work than the working group participants? I am not so sure. To me it a feature, everyone the same, equal treatment. Kind regards, Job
Hi Erik, As I'm stepping down as a chair next meeting I have no benefit from this, so I think I can speak without any conflict of interest.
The only ‘benefit’ of picking up the WG Chair hat … is a WG Chair lunch somewhere during the RIPE meeting
You mean that lunch that chairs use to do work for the community instead of talking to their customers/friends/etc ;)
I asked the Executive Board during the GM, if it is possible to add a RIPE meeting voucher for the RIPE WG Chairs as compensation.
Considering that being a chair involves work (depending on the working group it may be a different amount, but all chairs do work and have responsibilities) and that the ticket price is only a smaller part of the total cost (flights, hotel etc cost more than the meeting ticket) I think it would be a nice token. I don't think this will make people dependent on the NCC as Jim fears, or that people will suddenly become chair just to get a relatively small discount on the total price of traveling to and attending a RIPE meeting, or that it would influence how the working groups select their chairs in any other way. It would however show some appreciation and recognition for all the work the chairs do in their spare time, and I think my fellow working group chairs deserve that. Cheers, Sander
It would however show some appreciation and recognition for all the work the chairs do in their spare time, and I think my fellow working group chairs deserve that.
Agree 100%. All the best, Stuart Stuart Gilbertson Consider IT Limited Superior IT Support www.considerit.co.uk 0131 510 0110 Please Note: This e-mail and any files that may be attached to it are for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information and is strictly confidential. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender by replying to this message. In the event that you are not the intended recipient, you must not directly or indirectly copy, print, or otherwise disseminate this message in full or in part. Consider IT Ltd takes reasonable steps to ensure that our e-mails are virus-free, and in any event, accept no liability, either for any alterations made to this e-mail by third parties, or any viruses that it may contain, howsoever arising. Consider IT Ltd reserves the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to state them to be the views of any such entity. On 18 January 2018 at 17:10, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi Erik,
As I'm stepping down as a chair next meeting I have no benefit from this, so I think I can speak without any conflict of interest.
The only ‘benefit’ of picking up the WG Chair hat … is a WG Chair lunch somewhere during the RIPE meeting
You mean that lunch that chairs use to do work for the community instead of talking to their customers/friends/etc ;)
I asked the Executive Board during the GM, if it is possible to add a RIPE meeting voucher for the RIPE WG Chairs as compensation.
Considering that being a chair involves work (depending on the working group it may be a different amount, but all chairs do work and have responsibilities) and that the ticket price is only a smaller part of the total cost (flights, hotel etc cost more than the meeting ticket) I think it would be a nice token.
I don't think this will make people dependent on the NCC as Jim fears, or that people will suddenly become chair just to get a relatively small discount on the total price of traveling to and attending a RIPE meeting, or that it would influence how the working groups select their chairs in any other way.
It would however show some appreciation and recognition for all the work the chairs do in their spare time, and I think my fellow working group chairs deserve that.
Cheers, Sander
+1 Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de Stuart Gilbertson | Consider IT Limited <stuart.gilbertson@considerit.co.uk> Fecha: jueves, 18 de enero de 2018, 18:14 Para: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> CC: RIPE List <ripe-list@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [ripe-list] Follow up on the Dubai AGM - RIPE WG Chair meeting vouchers > It would however show some appreciation and recognition for all the work the chairs do in their spare time, and I think my fellow working group chairs deserve that. Agree 100%. All the best, Stuart Stuart Gilbertson Consider IT Limited Superior IT Support www.considerit.co.uk <http://www.considerit.co.uk/> 0131 510 0110 Please Note: This e-mail and any files that may be attached to it are for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information and is strictly confidential. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender by replying to this message. In the event that you are not the intended recipient, you must not directly or indirectly copy, print, or otherwise disseminate this message in full or in part. Consider IT Ltd takes reasonable steps to ensure that our e-mails are virus-free, and in any event, accept no liability, either for any alterations made to this e-mail by third parties, or any viruses that it may contain, howsoever arising. Consider IT Ltd reserves the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to state them to be the views of any such entity. On 18 January 2018 at 17:10, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote: Hi Erik, As I'm stepping down as a chair next meeting I have no benefit from this, so I think I can speak without any conflict of interest. > The only ‘benefit’ of picking up the WG Chair hat … is a WG Chair lunch somewhere during the RIPE meeting You mean that lunch that chairs use to do work for the community instead of talking to their customers/friends/etc ;) > I asked the Executive Board during the GM, if it is possible to add a RIPE meeting voucher for the RIPE WG Chairs as compensation. Considering that being a chair involves work (depending on the working group it may be a different amount, but all chairs do work and have responsibilities) and that the ticket price is only a smaller part of the total cost (flights, hotel etc cost more than the meeting ticket) I think it would be a nice token. I don't think this will make people dependent on the NCC as Jim fears, or that people will suddenly become chair just to get a relatively small discount on the total price of traveling to and attending a RIPE meeting, or that it would influence how the working groups select their chairs in any other way. It would however show some appreciation and recognition for all the work the chairs do in their spare time, and I think my fellow working group chairs deserve that. Cheers, Sander ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Hi APNIC since few meetings cover all expense for the chair(hotel flight etc), so free meeting ticket seems quite reasonable. On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 07:13 Stuart Gilbertson | Consider IT Limited < stuart.gilbertson@considerit.co.uk> wrote:
It would however show some appreciation and recognition for all the work the chairs do in their spare time, and I think my fellow working group chairs deserve that.
Agree 100%.
All the best,
Stuart
Stuart Gilbertson Consider IT Limited Superior IT Support
www.considerit.co.uk 0131 510 0110
Please Note: This e-mail and any files that may be attached to it are for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information and is strictly confidential. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender by replying to this message. In the event that you are not the intended recipient, you must not directly or indirectly copy, print, or otherwise disseminate this message in full or in part. Consider IT Ltd takes reasonable steps to ensure that our e-mails are virus-free, and in any event, accept no liability, either for any alterations made to this e-mail by third parties, or any viruses that it may contain, howsoever arising. Consider IT Ltd reserves the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to state them to be the views of any such entity.
On 18 January 2018 at 17:10, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi Erik,
As I'm stepping down as a chair next meeting I have no benefit from this, so I think I can speak without any conflict of interest.
The only ‘benefit’ of picking up the WG Chair hat … is a WG Chair lunch somewhere during the RIPE meeting
You mean that lunch that chairs use to do work for the community instead of talking to their customers/friends/etc ;)
I asked the Executive Board during the GM, if it is possible to add a RIPE meeting voucher for the RIPE WG Chairs as compensation.
Considering that being a chair involves work (depending on the working group it may be a different amount, but all chairs do work and have responsibilities) and that the ticket price is only a smaller part of the total cost (flights, hotel etc cost more than the meeting ticket) I think it would be a nice token.
I don't think this will make people dependent on the NCC as Jim fears, or that people will suddenly become chair just to get a relatively small discount on the total price of traveling to and attending a RIPE meeting, or that it would influence how the working groups select their chairs in any other way.
It would however show some appreciation and recognition for all the work the chairs do in their spare time, and I think my fellow working group chairs deserve that.
Cheers, Sander
-- -- Best Regards,
Heng Lu CEO Larus Cloud Service Limited Tel: +852 2988-8918 <javascript:void(0);> E-mail: H.Lu@laruscloudservice.net Address: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, Hong Kong <https://maps.google.com/?q=No.3+Hoi+Shing+Road,+Tsuen+Wan,+Hong+Kong&entry=gmail&source=g> Website: https://www.laruscloudservice.net/
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018, Lu Heng wrote:
Hi
APNIC since few meetings cover all expense for the chair(hotel flight etc), so free meeting ticket seems quite reasonable.
CEO
Larus Cloud Service Limited Tel: +852 2988-8918 <javascript:void(0);> E-mail: H.Lu@laruscloudservice.net Address: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, Hong Kong Website: https://www.laruscloudservice.net/
Lu, APNIC doesn't have WGs, they have SIGs, but I guess the SIGs are "morale equivalents" in this context. Are you sure the SIG chairs at APNIC have all their expenses covered? That's news to me. Perhaps you are referring to the APNIC EC chair? Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher The Internet Protocol Journal Office: +1 415-550-9433 Cell: +1 415-370-4628 Docomo: +81 090 3337-9311 E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com Skype: organdemo
Hi Ole, Just for info of the list, I've responded this morning in a private email something related to this (copying here only partially my own response). "... I also know that not every RIR has WGs, but they have equivalent structures (eg, Advisory Council for ARIN), and that sometimes the conferences are tied to other organizations, etc. At the end, all that doesn't really matter, because I'm not trying a one-to-one comparison, just providing references of "very-close-species". APNIC and LACNIC do that, even pay for traveling expenses. In LACNIC, this is true even for speakers that may obtain a grant for the traveling expenses, if they apply and it is justified. Somebody in the list could confirm for AfriNIC and ARIN, if we want to have the 5 RIRs picture, I know people there, so I'm happy to ask them directly if needed. Even if RIPE co-chairs could apply in a case-by-case basis for special waiver or grants, it is obvious that if you have a specific personal situation, you may not want/like to disclose it, and even worse, I think "special" rules are always bad things, very subjective and I prefer rules that are always objective and the same for same "groups" (like co-chairs or PC "group"), and I don't think that can be understood as a "segregation", because that group is elected by the community and everybody can make merits so he is considered by the community for being part of that group if he wants to invest the additional time/effort being part of that." Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com> Responder a: Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com> Fecha: viernes, 19 de enero de 2018, 16:27 Para: Lu Heng <h.lu@laruscloudservice.net> CC: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>, RIPE List <ripe-list@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [ripe-list] Follow up on the Dubai AGM - RIPE WG Chair meeting vouchers On Thu, 18 Jan 2018, Lu Heng wrote: > Hi > > APNIC since few meetings cover all expense for the chair(hotel flight etc), > so free meeting ticket seems quite reasonable. > > CEO > > Larus Cloud Service Limited > Tel: +852 2988-8918 <javascript:void(0);> > E-mail: H.Lu@laruscloudservice.net > Address: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, Hong Kong > Website: https://www.laruscloudservice.net/ > Lu, APNIC doesn't have WGs, they have SIGs, but I guess the SIGs are "morale equivalents" in this context. Are you sure the SIG chairs at APNIC have all their expenses covered? That's news to me. Perhaps you are referring to the APNIC EC chair? Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher The Internet Protocol Journal Office: +1 415-550-9433 Cell: +1 415-370-4628 Docomo: +81 090 3337-9311 E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com Skype: organdemo ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Eric, Jordi, I'm honestly not a fan, speaking of course purely for myself, of this proposal. Job, Jim and others have already covered a lot of the reasons why not. Yes, I'm fortunate that my company is willing to pay the meeting registration fee, but for a five day event I still think it's amazing value. I think it would unquestionably change the nature of the event and the perception of the WG Chairs (and PC) if the fees were to be waived. It wouldn't be some terrible disaster, but it would bring about a change, both in external and internal perception. It would be a slow change, sure, but it would be there. I have no objection to the NCC Membership funding the staff and the Exec Board or the various programmes such as RACI or the RIPE fellows. These are all very clear cut for me. But all of us who volunteer as WG Chairs or PC Members are just that, volunteers. We put our hand up knowing the requirements. One might hope that an incentive such as is being proposed wouldn't encourage people to step forward because of it, but I don't believe that is true. I would prefer if WGs continued to select (not elect!) the Chairs knowing, insofar as possible, that they wished to serve the community rather than having any other motivations. Again, I speak for myself here, not for any other member of the Chairs Collective or the PC. I'm sure there are members of both groups who might agree (and that is up to them, of course). With my member hat on, if we're going to spend more money on RIPE Meetings (and I believe they are some of the most important things the NCC spends money on!), then I can think of better things to spend it on than this, such as increasing the RIPE Fellowship Programme. Thanks, Brian Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 On 19/01/2018 15:34, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ripe-list wrote:
Hi Ole,
Just for info of the list, I've responded this morning in a private email something related to this (copying here only partially my own response).
"... I also know that not every RIR has WGs, but they have equivalent structures (eg, Advisory Council for ARIN), and that sometimes the conferences are tied to other organizations, etc. At the end, all that doesn't really matter, because I'm not trying a one-to-one comparison, just providing references of "very-close-species".
APNIC and LACNIC do that, even pay for traveling expenses.
In LACNIC, this is true even for speakers that may obtain a grant for the traveling expenses, if they apply and it is justified.
Somebody in the list could confirm for AfriNIC and ARIN, if we want to have the 5 RIRs picture, I know people there, so I'm happy to ask them directly if needed.
Even if RIPE co-chairs could apply in a case-by-case basis for special waiver or grants, it is obvious that if you have a specific personal situation, you may not want/like to disclose it, and even worse, I think "special" rules are always bad things, very subjective and I prefer rules that are always objective and the same for same "groups" (like co-chairs or PC "group"), and I don't think that can be understood as a "segregation", because that group is elected by the community and everybody can make merits so he is considered by the community for being part of that group if he wants to invest the additional time/effort being part of that."
Regards, Jordi
-----Mensaje original----- De: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com> Responder a: Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com> Fecha: viernes, 19 de enero de 2018, 16:27 Para: Lu Heng <h.lu@laruscloudservice.net> CC: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>, RIPE List <ripe-list@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [ripe-list] Follow up on the Dubai AGM - RIPE WG Chair meeting vouchers
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018, Lu Heng wrote:
> Hi > > APNIC since few meetings cover all expense for the chair(hotel flight etc), > so free meeting ticket seems quite reasonable. > > CEO > > Larus Cloud Service Limited > Tel: +852 2988-8918 <javascript:void(0);> > E-mail: H.Lu@laruscloudservice.net > Address: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, Hong Kong > Website: https://www.laruscloudservice.net/ >
Lu,
APNIC doesn't have WGs, they have SIGs, but I guess the SIGs are "morale equivalents" in this context.
Are you sure the SIG chairs at APNIC have all their expenses covered? That's news to me. Perhaps you are referring to the APNIC EC chair?
Ole
Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher The Internet Protocol Journal Office: +1 415-550-9433 Cell: +1 415-370-4628 Docomo: +81 090 3337-9311 E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com Skype: organdemo
********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Hi Yes, I mean SIG chairs. They have meeting expense covered since quite a while ago. https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/sig-chair-tr... Afrinic, to best of my knowledge, rpd chairs’ travel expense are also covered, that also includes their expense travel to other rir’s meeting. since there is nothing official anywhere in their website, I will leave it to their staff member to clearify if needed. On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 05:26 Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018, Lu Heng wrote:
Hi
APNIC since few meetings cover all expense for the chair(hotel flight etc), so free meeting ticket seems quite reasonable.
CEO
Larus Cloud Service Limited Tel: +852 2988-8918 <javascript:void(0);> E-mail: H.Lu@laruscloudservice.net Address: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, <https://maps.google.com/?q=5,+11/F,+TML+Tower,+No.3+Hoi+Shing+Road,&entry=gmail&source=g>Tsuen Wan, Hong Kong Website: https://www.laruscloudservice.net/
Lu,
APNIC doesn't have WGs, they have SIGs, but I guess the SIGs are "morale equivalents" in this context.
Are you sure the SIG chairs at APNIC have all their expenses covered? That's news to me. Perhaps you are referring to the APNIC EC chair?
Ole
Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher The Internet Protocol Journal Office: +1 415-550-9433 Cell: +1 415-370-4628 Docomo: +81 090 3337-9311 E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com Skype: organdemo
--
-- Best Regards, Heng Lu CEO Larus Cloud Service Limited Tel: +852 2988-8918 <javascript:void(0);> E-mail: H.Lu@laruscloudservice.net Address: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, Hong Kong <https://maps.google.com/?q=No.3+Hoi+Shing+Road,+Tsuen+Wan,+Hong+Kong&entry=gmail&source=g> Website: https://www.laruscloudservice.net/
Hi erik, On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 03:06:59PM +0000, Erik Bais wrote:
I asked the Executive Board during the GM, if it is possible to add a RIPE meeting voucher for the RIPE WG Chairs as compensation.
In many cases this won't benefit the Chair but merely their employer. I'm not sure this is a good idea, and brings administrative burden for no tangible gain. I'm not in support of such a policy change. How about chairs get to cut the line for coffee? ;-) Kind regards, Job
I think is wrong to assume that all the employers pay for those expenses, and I’m sure more than one of the Chairs pay from their own pocket (or even is self-employed). And the administrative burden for doing this voucher, can be automated once, so in my opinion is less than penuts. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de Job Snijders <job@instituut.net> Fecha: jueves, 18 de enero de 2018, 19:05 Para: Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com> CC: RIPE List <ripe-list@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [ripe-list] Follow up on the Dubai AGM - RIPE WG Chair meeting vouchers Hi erik, On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 03:06:59PM +0000, Erik Bais wrote: > I asked the Executive Board during the GM, if it is possible to add a > RIPE meeting voucher for the RIPE WG Chairs as compensation. In many cases this won't benefit the Chair but merely their employer. I'm not sure this is a good idea, and brings administrative burden for no tangible gain. I'm not in support of such a policy change. How about chairs get to cut the line for coffee? ;-) Kind regards, Job ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
To make this clear … I also see another aspect. I’m not sure if this is the case for actual co-chair, and of course, they may not want to comment in the list and we should respect that, but I recall some cases some time ago. I see a perfect valid case for a co-chair that is willing to contribute with his time and effort, but is having financial difficulties for getting the traveling + ticket cost covered (either by the employer or its own pocket), so I think is fair, at least to give the option to those co-chairs that need that, to opt for the free-ticket if we don’t want to apply to all the co-chairs. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ripe-list <ripe-list@ripe.net> Responder a: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> Fecha: jueves, 18 de enero de 2018, 19:15 Para: RIPE List <ripe-list@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [ripe-list] Follow up on the Dubai AGM - RIPE WG Chair meeting vouchers I think is wrong to assume that all the employers pay for those expenses, and I’m sure more than one of the Chairs pay from their own pocket (or even is self-employed). And the administrative burden for doing this voucher, can be automated once, so in my opinion is less than penuts. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de Job Snijders <job@instituut.net> Fecha: jueves, 18 de enero de 2018, 19:05 Para: Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com> CC: RIPE List <ripe-list@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [ripe-list] Follow up on the Dubai AGM - RIPE WG Chair meeting vouchers Hi erik, On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 03:06:59PM +0000, Erik Bais wrote: > I asked the Executive Board during the GM, if it is possible to add a > RIPE meeting voucher for the RIPE WG Chairs as compensation. In many cases this won't benefit the Chair but merely their employer. I'm not sure this is a good idea, and brings administrative burden for no tangible gain. I'm not in support of such a policy change. How about chairs get to cut the line for coffee? ;-) Kind regards, Job ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 08:41:12PM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ripe-list wrote:
To make this clear … I also see another aspect.
I’m not sure if this is the case for actual co-chair, and of course, they may not want to comment in the list and we should respect that, but I recall some cases some time ago.
Do you suspect there is a systemic issue that folks can't afford to attend RIPE meetings? We do have the scribes, video stream, chat room and mailing lists to lower the bar to participate.
I see a perfect valid case for a co-chair that is willing to contribute with his time and effort, but is having financial difficulties for getting the traveling + ticket cost covered (either by the employer or its own pocket), so I think is fair, at least to give the option to those co-chairs that need that, to opt for the free-ticket if we don’t want to apply to all the co-chairs.
But what about the working group participants that volunteer their time creating content, write BCPs, give presentations, answering questions, designing requirements, etc? Isn't everyone in RIPE a volunteer? It isn't just the chairs that do 'work' in a working group. Without working group participants, there is no working group. Every participant volunteers to contribute in some way or form, so I'd be careful to segregate chairs from the rest of the community. Kind regards, Job -- Disclaimer: If you receive this message you must clap your hands. Failure to comply will be considered as an act of civil disobedience.
Hi Job, Below, in-line. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de Job Snijders <job@instituut.net> Fecha: jueves, 18 de enero de 2018, 21:01 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> CC: RIPE List <ripe-list@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [ripe-list] Follow up on the Dubai AGM - RIPE WG Chair meeting vouchers On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 08:41:12PM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ripe-list wrote: > To make this clear … I also see another aspect. > > I’m not sure if this is the case for actual co-chair, and of course, > they may not want to comment in the list and we should respect that, > but I recall some cases some time ago. Do you suspect there is a systemic issue that folks can't afford to attend RIPE meetings? We do have the scribes, video stream, chat room and mailing lists to lower the bar to participate. [Jordi] I don’t know if it is affecting many people, or many times, this is something they should say if they wish. Remote participation is very nice, but we know that is not the same. Face-to-face chats are very relevant for anything. > I see a perfect valid case for a co-chair that is willing to > contribute with his time and effort, but is having financial > difficulties for getting the traveling + ticket cost covered (either > by the employer or its own pocket), so I think is fair, at least to > give the option to those co-chairs that need that, to opt for the > free-ticket if we don’t want to apply to all the co-chairs. But what about the working group participants that volunteer their time creating content, write BCPs, give presentations, answering questions, designing requirements, etc? [Jordi] You’re right, many of us are very frequent+constant contributors, but I’m sure the time required for a co-chair is much higher. Ideally, we should compensate all the frequent+constant contributors, may be that increases the participation … but I don’t see how can we that, it's a nice goal, but really complex to apply. I will say an intermediate step is to waive also the registration fee for speakers, that’s feasible. Isn't everyone in RIPE a volunteer? It isn't just the chairs that do 'work' in a working group. Without working group participants, there is no working group. Every participant volunteers to contribute in some way or form, so I'd be careful to segregate chairs from the rest of the community. [Jordi] I think considering this approach of waiving the chairs registration fee a segregation is too extreme … Unless I’m wrong, in all the other RIRs meetings neither chairs, neither speakers pay for the registration fee. I will opt for that also in our meetings without any further thinking. I think is unfair not doing so actually. Kind regards, Job -- Disclaimer: If you receive this message you must clap your hands. Failure to comply will be considered as an act of civil disobedience. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 09:37:10PM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ripe-list wrote:
Below, in-line.
If it is not too much to ask, can you please use standard email quoting practises? It is not clear where your own sentences end and what you are replying to begins.
Isn't everyone in RIPE a volunteer? It isn't just the chairs that do 'work' in a working group. Without working group participants, there is no working group. Every participant volunteers to contribute in some way or form, so I'd be careful to segregate chairs from the rest of the community.
[Jordi] I think considering this approach of waiving the chairs registration fee a segregation is too extreme … Unless I’m wrong, in all the other RIRs meetings neither chairs, neither speakers pay for the registration fee. I will opt for that also in our meetings without any further thinking. I think is unfair not doing so actually.
Or we stop charging an entrance fee alltogether, and increase the membership fee to compensate? Kind regards, Job
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 20:00:35 +0000 Job Snijders <job@instituut.net> wrote:
Isn't everyone in RIPE a volunteer? It isn't just the chairs that do 'work' in a working group. Without working group participants, there is no working group. Every participant volunteers to contribute in some way or form, so I'd be careful to segregate chairs from the rest of the community.
Job makes an excellent point here. For the past decade I've been participating in events hosted by CCC in Germany where we had similar discussions every few years. As the event (34c3 last month) has grown to 15.000 participants by now we can look back and declare the model a success insofar as there wouldn't have been hundreds of volunteers this year, had we introduced any special treatment for any of the participating teams. From what I understand other organizations like IETF also follow this model of participation even though on a smaller scale. While it might look like a good idea to compensate the work of people who contribute considerable amounts of time and effort one would enter a very tricky territory rather soon. It starts with questions as easy and obvious as "Who should be compensated, who shouldn't?" or "How much compensation is fair?" and leads amongst many other things to the creation of unhealthy incentives for people who might become financially dependent on the "job" they are fulfilling in the community. While these are just a few examples, it is easy to extrapolate how the small inconvenience of having no compensation is dwarfed by the Pandora's box of trouble that the introduction of preferential treatment would open. To me working in such a framework always helped to maintain a feeling of mutual respect between all contributing people because every single action performed by those peers is rather based on the spirit of contribution than on fulfilling a paid job. Working in such an environment is an excellent balance to our daily work lives. Creating artificial trenches between individuals and groups by offering compensation or incentives in the end always drives communities apart. Just my 0.02 CHF, -mh
Hi Job, On 18/01/2018, 19:04, "Job Snijders" <job@instituut.net> wrote:
Hi erik,
On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 03:06:59PM +0000, Erik Bais wrote:
I asked the Executive Board during the GM, if it is possible to add a RIPE meeting voucher for the RIPE WG Chairs as compensation.
In many cases this won't benefit the Chair but merely their employer. I'm not sure this is a good idea, and brings administrative burden for no tangible gain. I'm not in support of such a policy change.
I’m sure that this would not be seen as an issue for the time spend (also during working hours) in order to sponsor some of the time. Not all Chairs or co-chairs work for a multi-national telco/network/hosting company. I know (co-)chairs that are director for their own company / self-employed or even un-employed.
How about chairs get to cut the line for coffee? ;-)
That yellow badge is easy to spot for any barista … ;-) Erik
Iâm sure that this would not be seen as an issue for the time spend (also during working hours) in order to sponsor some of the time. Not all Chairs or co-chairs work for a multi-national telco/network/hosting company. I know (co-)chairs that are director for their own company / self-employed or even un-employed.
I have to agree with Erik on this one, quite a few of the WG chairs (and lots more RIPE meeting regulars) do not have the backing from a large company. But the chairs might feel a moral obligation to visit every single RIPE meeting, and a little financial support might certainly help. I do think it might be wise to have an option for the chairs to request waiving of fees on a per-meeting basis so those who do work for the big institutions don't stress the RIPE budget too much. Paul. (speaking on my own behalf as a RIPE community member without corporate backing)
participants (13)
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Brian Nisbet -
Erik Bais -
Jim Reid -
Job Snijders -
Job Snijders -
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ -
Leslie -
Lu Heng -
Michael Horn -
Ole Jacobsen -
Paul Hoogsteder -
Sander Steffann -
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