RIPE80 and COVID-19
Hi, it seems that to date more than 150 infections with the COVID-19 virus are known in Germany, 1 confirmed case in Berlin (so far 60 contact persons identified), the press says. https://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/article228589267/Coronavirus-Erster-positiv... I know that RIPE NCC is looking into all possible effects it could have on RIPE80, but it's time to rationally start talking about that and let participants take consequent decisions with awareness and in advance. What do you all think about that? -- antonio
Hi Antonio, ripe-list@ripe.net (Antonio Prado via ripe-list) wrote:
I know that RIPE NCC is looking into all possible effects it could have on RIPE80, but it's time to rationally start talking about that and let participants take consequent decisions with awareness and in advance.
What do you all think about that?
In all honesty? There are a lot more flu infections (and more deaths, every single year), so...why the fuss? Elmar.
On 2 Mar 2020, at 18:33, Elmar K. Bins <elmi@4ever.de> wrote:
In all honesty? There are a lot more flu infections (and more deaths, every single year), so...why the fuss?
IIUC one of the concerns is Covid19 is much more effective at infecting people than regular flu. While it may not be much of an issue if a few RIPE people get infected, they may well infect other (more vulnerable?) people when they return home. Assuming someone spreads coronavirus ar RIPE80. That sort of calculation will presumably be part of the risk assessment which I expect the NCC will carry out in due course. It's not just a question of "can people get sick at RIPE80?". A bigger question is "will RIPE80 be a vector to spread coronavirus?". I agree the risks (hype?) may well be over-stated. However we have a duty to be responsible and take proper account of the advice from the public health authorities.
On 3/2/20 7:33 PM, Elmar K. Bins wrote:
so...why the fuss?
Hi, I really don't know if it's fuss or not, if the topic has been overstated or not, if the outbreak is going to be contained or not. I'd just stick to the facts: the seasonal flu has been studied for decades, there is an effective vaccine and the death rate is around 0.1% (in US), despite the high number of deaths (18k), and a R0 (how easily a virus spreads) value of 1.3. OTOH, very little is known about the new coronavirus and the disease it causes, there is not a vaccine so far, the death rate is around 2.3% (in China), and a R0 value between 2 and 3. Anyway, as Jim recalled, a lot of events are being cancelled to which I would add ITB Berlin: "The responsible health authority of the district of Charlottenburg-Wilmersdorf in Berlin imposed significantly tighter restrictions on holding the event". https://www.itb-berlin.de/en/Extrapages/HealthInfo/ IMO, we as a community should care of it and tackle this issue with a correct, rational, prudent attitude. -- antonio
Those viruses do not resist temperatures over 24-25C, so if spring is not sufficiently hot, we just need to disconnect the air condition in the hotel and save some energy. Seriously. I think it is too early for taking a decision, and the decision may depend on the German authorities to cancel events, and in that case, everybody will be able to claim flight and hotel expenses if they have been pre-paid, including the cost for the NCC itself, which I guess is non-refundable if cancelled without the authorities mandate. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 2/3/20 20:27, "ripe-list en nombre de Antonio Prado via ripe-list" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de ripe-list@ripe.net> escribió: On 3/2/20 7:33 PM, Elmar K. Bins wrote: > so...why the fuss? Hi, I really don't know if it's fuss or not, if the topic has been overstated or not, if the outbreak is going to be contained or not. I'd just stick to the facts: the seasonal flu has been studied for decades, there is an effective vaccine and the death rate is around 0.1% (in US), despite the high number of deaths (18k), and a R0 (how easily a virus spreads) value of 1.3. OTOH, very little is known about the new coronavirus and the disease it causes, there is not a vaccine so far, the death rate is around 2.3% (in China), and a R0 value between 2 and 3. Anyway, as Jim recalled, a lot of events are being cancelled to which I would add ITB Berlin: "The responsible health authority of the district of Charlottenburg-Wilmersdorf in Berlin imposed significantly tighter restrictions on holding the event". https://www.itb-berlin.de/en/Extrapages/HealthInfo/ IMO, we as a community should care of it and tackle this issue with a correct, rational, prudent attitude. -- antonio ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
On 2 Mar 2020, at 17:52, Antonio Prado via ripe-list <ripe-list@ripe.net> wrote:
I know that RIPE NCC is looking into all possible effects it could have on RIPE80, but it's time to rationally start talking about that and let participants take consequent decisions with awareness and in advance.
RIPE80 is more than two months away. By then it's highly likely the virus will be contained or else we'll all be dead. So either way it won't matter much. :-) Current WHO advice is for meeting organisers to consult with the local public health authorities and carry out a proper risk assessment. This has lead to a variety of responses. Next week's ICANN meeting has effectively been cancelled. It's to go ahead with remote participation only. IETF107 is still going ahead as planned - for now anyway. Switzerland has banned mass gatherings of 1000+ people. The Geneva Motor Show has been cancelled. Yet it's business as usual for ITU meetings. Several companies have imposed a tenporary ban on international travel. As for RIPE80, you're right to suggest we all have to apply common sense by taking account of the risks, local policies and the prevailing circumstances at the time. These may well lead to different conclusions. I'm sure the NCC will keep us all updated in due course.
On 2 Mar 2020, at 19:39, Jim Reid wrote:
… Current WHO advice is for meeting organisers to consult with the local public health authorities and carry out a proper risk assessment. …
Before this gets to be a huge thread: I know first hand that the RIPE NCC and the RIPE Chair are in the process of updating the risk assessment for RIPE80 and evaluating options. As usual: should current plans change you will hear it here first. Please return to more appropriate fora to discuss generalities. We can discuss again when/if alternatives to the current plan emerge. Daniel
Daniel Karrenberg wrote on 02/03/2020 20:00:
I know first hand that the RIPE NCC and the RIPE Chair are in the process of updating the risk assessment for RIPE80 and evaluating options. As usual: should current plans change you will hear it here first. Please return to more appropriate fora to discuss generalities. We can discuss again when/if alternatives to the current plan emerge.
The RIPE NCC's current meeting plans are documented here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/coronavirus-update Agreed that it's probably best to leave the armchair epidemiology to other forums. Nick
On 2 Mar 2020, at 21:00, Daniel Karrenberg <dfk@ripe.net> wrote:
On 2 Mar 2020, at 19:39, Jim Reid wrote:
… Current WHO advice is for meeting organisers to consult with the local public health authorities and carry out a proper risk assessment. …
Before this gets to be a huge thread:
I see that ICANN-67 is now remote participation only.
I know first hand that the RIPE NCC and the RIPE Chair are in the process of updating the risk assessment for RIPE80 and evaluating options.
Lucky you. But maybe the community could now also participate in the conversation?
As usual: should current plans change you will hear it here first.
I would very much like that. So far all I have seen is a page on the web-site. On the list would have been better. So without going crazy, I would appreciate this channel being kept active.
Please return to more appropriate fora to discuss generalities. We can discuss again when/if alternatives to the current plan emerge.
Daniel
I accept it is too early to make firm GO / NO-GO decisions. But France has already banned gatherings of over 5000 people. And while we are nowhere near that we are a delightfully international community. So we present a higher risk? I think we need some indication, even a rough indication, of a possible decision timetable as soon as possible. Perhaps 35 days before? Unless the local authorities do something in the interim. People can then consider adjusting their own plans. And please wash your hands! Gordon
Personally I would also like to know more and sooner. That does not make it so in a fluid situation such as this. To repeat my point: the channel is open! I am sure that as soon as there is something useful to say we will all hear about it here, including timetables etc. In the meantime let’s keep the noise down. Washing hands ... Daniel --- Sent from a handheld device. --- Sent from a handheld device.
On 2. Mar 2020, at 22:34, Gordon Lennox <gordon.lennox.13@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2 Mar 2020, at 21:00, Daniel Karrenberg <dfk@ripe.net> wrote:
On 2 Mar 2020, at 19:39, Jim Reid wrote:
… Current WHO advice is for meeting organisers to consult with the local public health authorities and carry out a proper risk assessment. …
Before this gets to be a huge thread:
I see that ICANN-67 is now remote participation only.
I know first hand that the RIPE NCC and the RIPE Chair are in the process of updating the risk assessment for RIPE80 and evaluating options.
Lucky you. But maybe the community could now also participate in the conversation?
As usual: should current plans change you will hear it here first.
I would very much like that. So far all I have seen is a page on the web-site. On the list would have been better.
So without going crazy, I would appreciate this channel being kept active.
Please return to more appropriate fora to discuss generalities. We can discuss again when/if alternatives to the current plan emerge.
Daniel
I accept it is too early to make firm GO / NO-GO decisions. But France has already banned gatherings of over 5000 people. And while we are nowhere near that we are a delightfully international community. So we present a higher risk?
I think we need some indication, even a rough indication, of a possible decision timetable as soon as possible. Perhaps 35 days before? Unless the local authorities do something in the interim. People can then consider adjusting their own plans.
And please wash your hands!
Gordon
On 2 Mar 2020, at 21:34, Gordon Lennox <gordon.lennox.13@gmail.com> wrote:
I know first hand that the RIPE NCC and the RIPE Chair are in the process of updating the risk assessment for RIPE80 and evaluating options.
Lucky you. But maybe the community could now also participate in the conversation?
That’s a remarkably bad idea Gordon. This community has great trouble agreeing on the paintbrushes to use for its shed-painting activities. [And as for the type and colour of the paint....] If we were epidemiologists or experts in flu vaccines or could predict the future with perfect accuracy, that sort of community input could be useful. But we’re not. So it isn’t. It should be enough for now to know that the meeting organisers are making a risk assessment and will inform us in due course when there is something to report. This is not really any different from how the community doesn’t get involved in the RIPE meeting logistics and leaves that to people who understand the subject. I see absolutely no value of any sort in having the community participate in those sorts of conversations.
I have a meeting scheduled in Brussels later this week. The convenor has just asked who intends to still come. If enough people call off now he will cancel the meeting. Seems reasonable. And no he is not waiting for the authorities to decide for him. And no we are not medical health experts. So we are not discussing all that. We are just a bunch of folk with different perceptions. . In the end we will make different decisions as individuals. But one useful bit of information in reaching that decision can be knowing what others might do, will do. But we are not looking for consensus OK. For Berlin some people will wait and then defer to the authorities. And that may include not only those in Germany but also those back in their home country. Some people will of course need to follow company guidelines as they are rolled out. There are organisations that are already restricting travel. Others may already be wondering whether it is all worth the hassle. For what it is worth I currently intend to be in Berlin. I have penciled-in a check-point about 35 days out. Gordon
On 3 Mar 2020, at 00:00, Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com> wrote:
On 2 Mar 2020, at 21:34, Gordon Lennox <gordon.lennox.13@gmail.com> wrote:
I know first hand that the RIPE NCC and the RIPE Chair are in the process of updating the risk assessment for RIPE80 and evaluating options.
Lucky you. But maybe the community could now also participate in the conversation?
That’s a remarkably bad idea Gordon. This community has great trouble agreeing on the paintbrushes to use for its shed-painting activities. [And as for the type and colour of the paint....] If we were epidemiologists or experts in flu vaccines or could predict the future with perfect accuracy, that sort of community input could be useful. But we’re not. So it isn’t.
It should be enough for now to know that the meeting organisers are making a risk assessment and will inform us in due course when there is something to report. This is not really any different from how the community doesn’t get involved in the RIPE meeting logistics and leaves that to people who understand the subject.
I see absolutely no value of any sort in having the community participate in those sorts of conversations.
On 3/2/20 6:51 PM, Gordon Lennox wrote:
For what it is worth I currently intend to be in Berlin. I have penciled-in a check-point about 35 days out.
I think having a known check-point date for a go/no-decision for an event is helpful, and that ~5 weeks ahead for this is a reasonable lead-time for people to make decisions on international travel commitments. And please, +1 to no "armchair epidemiology" on this list, let's leave the risk assessments to professionals. Keith
We all know the situation is evolving quite quickly. But here are two items from this weekend about travel to and in Germany. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51897069 https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/coronavirus/2317268 Gordon
On 02-03-2020 22:34, Gordon Lennox wrote:
I see that ICANN-67 is now remote participation only.
Yes. Can you imagine everyone attending ICANN-67 being stuck together in quarantine for two weeks? I would start a betting pool on who would be the first one to go postal.. Julf
On 3/3/20 10:29 AM, Johan Helsingius wrote:
On 02-03-2020 22:34, Gordon Lennox wrote:
I see that ICANN-67 is now remote participation only. Yes. Can you imagine everyone attending ICANN-67 being stuck together in quarantine for two weeks? I would start a betting pool on who would be
+2 weeks in home country. Last one can happen in any case... Dima
the first one to go postal..
Julf
participants (10)
-
Antonio Prado -
Daniel Karrenberg -
Dmitry Burkov -
Elmar K. Bins -
Gordon Lennox -
Jim Reid -
Johan Helsingius -
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ -
Keith Mitchell -
Nick Hilliard