Re: [ripe-list] [ncc-announce] [news] Billing Changes for 2019
+1 It's another step to prevent people opening multiple LIRs. On 21.12.18 15:55, Dominic Schallert wrote:
Dear all, while I appreciate the efforts in reducing accounting complexity and organizational overhead at RIPE NCC, I’m not sure if this step of removing the possiblity for quarterly and half-yearly payment is beneficial looking at the vast amount of smaller, single-account LIRs.
Just my opinion.
Kind regards, Dominic
Am 21.12.2018 um 15:34 schrieb Gwen van Berne <gvanberne@ripe.net <mailto:gvanberne@ripe.net>>:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
We would like to notify you about changes to our billing processes that will come into effect for 2019. Invoicing will take place one month later than usual on 18 February 2019 to ensure you have time to plan for the changes listed below.
1. Move to annual billing schedule only On 13 December, the RIPE NCC Executive Board resolved to move the billing process for members to an annual scheme only.
This change to annual billing only is aimed at reducing complexity for our members, eliminating repeated late payments and reminders, and also bringing efficiencies to our processes. With the increasing number of LIR accounts, the quarterly payments schedule has put a heavy burden on our administration. This option also means that members often have to be notified several times per year about late invoice payments.
For members with only one LIR account, we will design a transition plan for those with cash flow limitations and who therefore have difficulty meeting the payment schedule. We will provide details about this in January 2019.
2. No longer sending annual separate account statements In line with our efforts to make our billing processes more efficient and member-friendly, we will no longer send the annual account statement to members separately from the invoice. This has caused confusion in the past for members who are receiving financial statements before the invoice is available to pay. The annual invoice will include all charging details, including the membership contribution and, when applicable, independent resources, legacy resources and the redistribution from 2018. More details on the calculation for the redistribution will be communicated in January 2019.
We will notify all billing contacts about the changes to our billing processes.
The full billing procedure for 2019 is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/payment/ripe-ncc-billing-pro...
There is a webpage that provides additional information on our billing procedure and also gives further details that are useful for members in Russia and Ukraine: https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/payment/ripe-ncc-billing-pro...
We are confident that these changes will simplify the billing process and we trust that you will support our efforts to increase efficiencies at the RIPE NCC. If you have questions or you want to request support from us, please contact <billing@ripe.net>.
Kind regards,
Gwen van Berne Chief Financial Officer RIPE NCC
Dear members and RIPE NCC, Although I can understand part of the motivation for such a change in billing schedule, notifying us with just ±45 days before sending the actual 1 year fee invoice is *unacceptable*! I do understand and support any measure to limit multiple LIRs, but companies plan such expenses in advance. *I do not support this tight schedule on going to an annual billing plan for the LIRs who are old enough and behave correctly. Even if you come in January and provide a transition plan, it should allow us at least 6-12 months before transitioning. Also I think that the invoicing on a annual billing plan should be done in the second half of the year. This way things would be fair, as we are charging our customers after we provide the service and not before. * Such a decision should have been taken through a voting process not like this through an email on 21th of December before Christmas. Is this the gift Santa left us with you? I also feel angry on RIPE NCC management, as it seems that no real decisions (like this one) are being taken democratically through voting, and just unessential issues are proposed for voting at GM. Also I don't understand how you can complain about late payments as the base of LIR's is continually expanding and your expenses are kind of linear. Another argument I can provide you is that you redistribute excess contribution yearly, meaning this excess payments we make are cash flow for you. As you are keeping some extra money you don't need (as RIPE is a non-profit organization) you should not complain so much on this late payments issue. You already have part of our annual fee from the last year payments. With respect and gratitude, -- On 12/21/18 22:16, Patrick Velder wrote:
+1
It's another step to prevent people opening multiple LIRs.
On 21.12.18 15:55, Dominic Schallert wrote:
Dear all, while I appreciate the efforts in reducing accounting complexity and organizational overhead at RIPE NCC, I’m not sure if this step of removing the possiblity for quarterly and half-yearly payment is beneficial looking at the vast amount of smaller, single-account LIRs.
Just my opinion.
Kind regards, Dominic
Am 21.12.2018 um 15:34 schrieb Gwen van Berne <gvanberne@ripe.net <mailto:gvanberne@ripe.net>>:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
We would like to notify you about changes to our billing processes that will come into effect for 2019. Invoicing will take place one month later than usual on 18 February 2019 to ensure you have time to plan for the changes listed below.
1. Move to annual billing schedule only On 13 December, the RIPE NCC Executive Board resolved to move the billing process for members to an annual scheme only.
This change to annual billing only is aimed at reducing complexity for our members, eliminating repeated late payments and reminders, and also bringing efficiencies to our processes. With the increasing number of LIR accounts, the quarterly payments schedule has put a heavy burden on our administration. This option also means that members often have to be notified several times per year about late invoice payments.
For members with only one LIR account, we will design a transition plan for those with cash flow limitations and who therefore have difficulty meeting the payment schedule. We will provide details about this in January 2019.
2. No longer sending annual separate account statements In line with our efforts to make our billing processes more efficient and member-friendly, we will no longer send the annual account statement to members separately from the invoice. This has caused confusion in the past for members who are receiving financial statements before the invoice is available to pay. The annual invoice will include all charging details, including the membership contribution and, when applicable, independent resources, legacy resources and the redistribution from 2018. More details on the calculation for the redistribution will be communicated in January 2019.
We will notify all billing contacts about the changes to our billing processes.
The full billing procedure for 2019 is available at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/payment/ripe-ncc-billing-pro...
There is a webpage that provides additional information on our billing procedure and also gives further details that are useful for members in Russia and Ukraine: https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/payment/ripe-ncc-billing-pro...
We are confident that these changes will simplify the billing process and we trust that you will support our efforts to increase efficiencies at the RIPE NCC. If you have questions or you want to request support from us, please contact <billing@ripe.net>.
Kind regards,
Gwen van Berne Chief Financial Officer RIPE NCC
Adrian, all - On 21.12.2018 23:24, Adrian Pitulac wrote:
Dear members and RIPE NCC,
Although I can understand part of the motivation for such a change in billing schedule, notifying us with just ±45 days before sending the actual 1 year fee invoice is *unacceptable*!
I do understand and support any measure to limit multiple LIRs, but companies plan such expenses in advance.
*I do not support this tight schedule on going to an annual billing plan for the LIRs who are old enough and behave correctly. Even if you come in January and provide a transition plan, it should allow us at least 6-12 months before transitioning. Also I think that the invoicing on a annual billing plan should be done in the second half of the year. This way things would be fair, as we are charging our customers after we provide the service and not before. *
so you're suggesting a "billing plan project" lasting six to twelve months for how much again per LIR? Ah, right: 1,400 Euros.
Such a decision should have been taken through a voting process not like this through an email on 21th of December before Christmas. Is this the gift Santa left us with you?
I also feel angry on RIPE NCC management, as it seems that no real decisions (like this one) are being taken democratically through voting, and just unessential issues are proposed for voting at GM.
Adrian - please get real! A billing plan, comprising facts like when to send them out and how to collect them, is at the sole discretion of the organisation billing its customers. Even if these customers are also members of this organisation and the organisation itself holds a strong market position in the goods and services it renders. And even more so if it is about what the membership fee is: 1,400 Euros annually. The impact of it may vary depending on the country and its economy you do the main part of your business in - but still it is just a four digit figure at the lower end of the corresponding range. I certainly do not a need a voting by the members on it wrt. the question how to actually collect it.
Also I don't understand how you can complain about late payments as the base of LIR's is continually expanding and your expenses are kind of linear. Another argument I can provide you is that you redistribute excess contribution yearly, meaning this excess payments we make are cash flow for you.
This is funny: you don't see that you are directly contradicting yourself, do you? Quoting you from the paragraph before: "I also feel angry on RIPE NCC management, as it seems that no real decisions (like this one) are being taken democratically through voting, and just unessential issues are proposed for voting at GM." The last two GMs were about such totally "unessential" things like: * Adoption of the RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 * Discharge of the Executive Board * RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 * Draft RIPE NCC Activity Plan and Budget 2019 * Redistribution of the RIPE NCC Surplus/Deficit - most of them even to be voted upon - and rightfully so! - by the members. I am sorry, Adrian - but you are barking up the entirely wrong tree.
As you are keeping some extra money you don't need (as RIPE is a non-profit organization) you should not complain so much on this late payments issue.
What a perfect circular reasoning - I am truly impressed. Best, -C. P.S.: Happy holidays, all!
As a member I am conserned that RIPE NCC operates in an efficient way. But even more important that my company operates efficiently: Looking at figures for the cost of processing an invoice for small business owners: https://due.com/blog/the-true-cost-of-an-invoice-to-small-business-owners/ states that processing a single paper invoice costs between $12 an $30, Bringinging it down to $3-4 for electronic invoices. My guess is that it may be even more expesive with international payments. In my bank it will cost me 3–7EUR to make an international payment (as opposed to 0,25 for a domestic) So If I split the 1400 EUR into 12 and pay it in installments of 117EUR a month, It adds at least 33EUR to the bill in bank charges maybe up to 275EUR Which is between 2.3 and 20% to the bill. So in order to save money I would definitely go for the yearly billing in order to save some money on my end.
From Gwens email it is clear that there will also be savings on the RIPE NCC end. Since the surpluss is sent back to the members we will benefit even more if RIPE NCC can operate more efficiently.
Hans Petter LIR no.visma -- -- Hans Petter Holen Mobile +47 45 06 60 54 | hph@oslo.net | http://hph.oslo.net
Hello Hans, Let me remind you first that I do support moving to a yearly billing! Just not on this proposed tight schedule. But your calculations seem totally wrong as RIPE NCC allows us to pay through PAYPAL which means 0 (0 USD/EUR) fees for us. Surely RIPE NCC pays the fee for our transaction, but even in this case we see excess redistribution. Moving to yearly billing, would mean maybe more excess redistribution, but it's not very clear, because the money could be redirected elsewhere. So no clear savings for the members. With respect and gratitude, -- On 12/22/18 21:29, Hans Petter Holen wrote:
As a member I am conserned that RIPE NCC operates in an efficient way.
But even more important that my company operates efficiently: Looking at figures for the cost of processing an invoice for small business owners:
https://due.com/blog/the-true-cost-of-an-invoice-to-small-business-owners/
states that processing a single paper invoice costs between $12 an $30, Bringinging it down to $3-4 for electronic invoices.
My guess is that it may be even more expesive with international payments.
In my bank it will cost me 3–7EUR to make an international payment (as opposed to 0,25 for a domestic)
So If I split the 1400 EUR into 12 and pay it in installments of 117EUR a month, It adds at least 33EUR to the bill in bank charges maybe up to 275EUR Which is between 2.3 and 20% to the bill.
So in order to save money I would definitely go for the yearly billing in order to save some money on my end.
From Gwens email it is clear that there will also be savings on the RIPE NCC end. Since the surpluss is sent back to the members we will benefit even more if RIPE NCC can operate more efficiently.
Hans Petter LIR no.visma
-- -- Hans Petter Holen Mobile +47 45 06 60 54 | hph@oslo.net <mailto:hph@oslo.net> | http://hph.oslo.net
On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 at 00:11, Adrian Pitulac <adrian@idsys.ro> wrote:
Hello Hans,
Let me remind you first that I do support moving to a yearly billing! Just not on this proposed tight schedule.
Thats great. I agree that the schedule seems a bit tight, but I understand from Gwens message that the intention is to offer a way to do payment in installments for those with cashflow limitations. As I understand it it will be a «change the default» to one bill once a year, with an option to spread the payments. I trust this will be clearer when the plan is published. But your calculations seem totally wrong as RIPE NCC allows us to pay
through PAYPAL which means 0 (0 USD/EUR) fees for us. Surely RIPE NCC pays the fee for our transaction, but even in this case we see excess redistribution.
If I pay by PayPal it would be more expesive for me as our accounting system has an integration with the bank to pay bills. If I do PayPal I have to user a credit card, and expense the amount, which takes more of my time but also another transaction in our accounting department. In either case I might save the cost of the bank transaction (and let the RIPE NCC pay the PayPal 2.9% fee) but not the cost of handling the 11 additional invoices. Moving to yearly billing, would mean maybe more excess redistribution, but
it's not very clear, because the money could be redirected elsewhere. So no clear savings for the members.
The spending of the money is deceided by the members trough the anual activity plan, make sure to engage in the discussion in the services working group. Hans Petter -- -- Hans Petter Holen Mobile +47 45 06 60 54 | hph@oslo.net | http://hph.oslo.net
Dear Cartsten, You have not said anything clear here, please see my replies inline. Also your replies are clearly from your ex-position I think at Deutsche Telekom. Big player people seem not to understand other niche companies. Your view is in line with that. Also if in Germany 1400 Euro's are peanuts maybe for other companies it isn't. I'm not saying that I personally have a problem with this amount, but I see companies struggling and this move could have significant impact on them. RIPE position on allowing everyone to still have access to IPV4 (read as allowing even small companies), is in contradiction with your view. Maybe you didn't pay attention on my concerns. My position is not against moving to a yearly billing plan, but against quick changes to things that should be discussed and voted upon. On 12/22/18 15:48, Carsten Schiefner wrote:
Adrian, all -
On 21.12.2018 23:24, Adrian Pitulac wrote:
Dear members and RIPE NCC,
Although I can understand part of the motivation for such a change in billing schedule, notifying us with just ±45 days before sending the actual 1 year fee invoice is *unacceptable*!
I do understand and support any measure to limit multiple LIRs, but companies plan such expenses in advance.
*I do not support this tight schedule on going to an annual billing plan for the LIRs who are old enough and behave correctly. Even if you come in January and provide a transition plan, it should allow us at least 6-12 months before transitioning. Also I think that the invoicing on a annual billing plan should be done in the second half of the year. This way things would be fair, as we are charging our customers after we provide the service and not before. * so you're suggesting a "billing plan project" lasting six to twelve months for how much again per LIR?
Ah, right: 1,400 Euros.
Not very clear what you want to say here. A transitioning process is synonym to a transitioning period. If 6-12 months seem unfair please explain. Is like your cable TV provider tells you tomorrow you have to pay for 1 year in advance, not monthly. Even if it's a 30 Euro's bill I think you won't be very happy on this move.
Such a decision should have been taken through a voting process not like this through an email on 21th of December before Christmas. Is this the gift Santa left us with you?
I also feel angry on RIPE NCC management, as it seems that no real decisions (like this one) are being taken democratically through voting, and just unessential issues are proposed for voting at GM. Adrian - please get real!
A billing plan, comprising facts like when to send them out and how to collect them, is at the sole discretion of the organisation billing its customers. Even if these customers are also members of this organisation and the organisation itself holds a strong market position in the goods and services it renders.
We are not customers! We are members of a NON-PROFIT-ORGANISATION! Membership has it's rights not just obligations. Think about this!
And even more so if it is about what the membership fee is: 1,400 Euros annually. The impact of it may vary depending on the country and its economy you do the main part of your business in - but still it is just a four digit figure at the lower end of the corresponding range.
I certainly do not a need a voting by the members on it wrt. the question how to actually collect it.
Ripe is collecting it , so no worries there. It isn't about members not paying it is about how fast are they doing it.
Also I don't understand how you can complain about late payments as the base of LIR's is continually expanding and your expenses are kind of linear. Another argument I can provide you is that you redistribute excess contribution yearly, meaning this excess payments we make are cash flow for you. This is funny: you don't see that you are directly contradicting yourself, do you?
Quoting you from the paragraph before: "I also feel angry on RIPE NCC management, as it seems that no real decisions (like this one) are being taken democratically through voting, and just unessential issues are proposed for voting at GM."
The last two GMs were about such totally "unessential" things like:
* Adoption of the RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 * Discharge of the Executive Board * RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 * Draft RIPE NCC Activity Plan and Budget 2019 * Redistribution of the RIPE NCC Surplus/Deficit
- most of them even to be voted upon - and rightfully so! - by the members.
I am sorry, Adrian - but you are barking up the entirely wrong tree.
Adoption of the RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 is non-essential because you vote a REPORT! RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019? Voting what? The amount of the contribution? This is a yearly subject on the GM . Redistributution of the RIPE NCC Surplus Deficit? Right.. Non-Profit-Organisation with regularly excess contribution? It is a must! Voting DRAFT documents? It seems like voting something that could change. Are you kidding? These are not essential subjects for you? No IPV6 transitioning incentive program, no IPV4 deprecation program, no mentioning of moving to yearly billing vs quarterly, etc...
As you are keeping some extra money you don't need (as RIPE is a non-profit organization) you should not complain so much on this late payments issue. What a perfect circular reasoning - I am truly impressed.
Is it something incorrectly here? Am I missing something?
Best,
-C.
P.S.: Happy holidays, all!
--
Carsten Schiefner пишет 22.12.2018 16:48: Hi
Adrian, all -
On 21.12.2018 23:24, Adrian Pitulac wrote:
Dear members and RIPE NCC,
Although I can understand part of the motivation for such a change in billing schedule, notifying us with just ±45 days before sending the actual 1 year fee invoice is *unacceptable*!
I do understand and support any measure to limit multiple LIRs, but companies plan such expenses in advance.
*I do not support this tight schedule on going to an annual billing plan for the LIRs who are old enough and behave correctly. Even if you come in January and provide a transition plan, it should allow us at least 6-12 months before transitioning. Also I think that the invoicing on a annual billing plan should be done in the second half of the year. This way things would be fair, as we are charging our customers after we provide the service and not before. * so you're suggesting a "billing plan project" lasting six to twelve months for how much again per LIR?
Ah, right: 1,400 Euros.
2 881.35 Euros my LIR pay per quarter, 11 525.40 per year because we have a lot of PI end users we've collected during over that 20 years of activity as LIR. That is why we prefer to pay quarterly. <...>
-- With respect, *Larisa Yurkina* RosNIIROS Internet Number Resources Group / Chief Manager l.yurkina@ripn.net <mailto:l.yurkina@ripn.net> / www.ripn.net <http://www.ripn.net> Т.: +7 495 737-0604
participants (5)
-
Adrian Pitulac -
Carsten Schiefner -
Hans Petter Holen -
Larisa Yurkina -
Patrick Velder