[Please view this message as either plain text or HTML, according to your preference and the capabilities of the application you use to read mail] On 29 May 2023, at 10:43, Anna Wilson wrote:
When I attended my first RIPE in 1998, the idea that you could do policy coordination on _the internet_, especially on an open list that uncredentialled people could just join, was pretty radical.
Re "uncredentialled", see below ...
It's not radical anymore. Well done, us.
Leo's right, and the problems he identifies are real.
Yes, and Leo's not the only one.
Reading this thread, most of what I see are "minimum requirements". Implicit in this seems to be the idea that Important People Won't Join if those requirements aren't met.
What I don't see so much yet is a picture of what a new, radical, open approach could look like. Which is the thing that made RIPE successful in the first place.
I don't have that picture yet. I can offer some brainstorming bullet-points which I've assembled from - things I (thought I) understood from Leo well before RIPE86, - what I've seen while lurking in the hallway-chat channel of the RPKI Community Discord server, - what I've noticed in this thread, - various hallway conversations, - some concerns of my own. I hope these will help towards painting a clearer picture. I'm sure I've inadvertently left some things, perhaps even important ones, out, and equally sure that one or other of you will help fill in the gaps. ## Disclaimer No personal name used below, except that of the author, is intended to refer to any actual person, living or dead. ## Preconceptions Alternatively "prejudices", or "how things used to be". - open standards (SMTP, MIME) ensured interoperability - in-house service, not commodity at scale, and consequently: * local expert(s) with responsibility for operating server; * direct relationship between user and operator; * email address was quasi-credential; eg. Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie identified the sender because the local operator (probably Niall O'Reilly himself or a very close colleague) had to set up the mailbox; * direct resolution of almost all problems; * typically only two, or maybe three, parties involved: local server operator at ucd.ie, heanet.ie, and maybe list admin at ripe.net. ## Meanwhile "It's email, Jim, but not as we (used to) know it." - outsourced service, badge-engineered with domain-part of address; - proprietary "enhancements" undermine interoperability; - different aspects of service outsourced separately, perhaps indirectly: * mailbox hosting, * blocklists; - indirect problem resolution via (chain of) outsourced providers; - restricted range of problems which any given provider will address; - message transmission may be restricted by a provider's policies; - complexity due to richer set of standards (SPF, DKIM, SAML, OAuth, TLS). ## Use cases - targeted/personal notification: * unique personal link to meeting platform, * access credential for e-voting system, * invoices, receipts; - group communication: * informal or ephemeral chat; * on-the-record discussion; * formal announcement of milestone or other state transition, eg: - phase of discussion, - consensus, - beginning or end of term of office; ## Strengths of e-mail - single client (MUA) gives user access to, and management of, many message feeds; - variety of MUAs matching personal preference and workflow: * web-based, * editor-based, * dedicated application; - list archives * support transparency, * provide backup for inadvertently deleted messages, * mitigate effect of non-delivery; - mature technology (but see below). ## Weaknesses of e-mail - mature technology (but see above); - some (even many) people find alternative platforms better for informal, ephemeral, or more dynamic interaction; - selective delivery, according to provider's policy. ## Challenges - RIPE (and/or RIPE NCC) "branding"; - applicability of RIPE Code of Conduct to alternative means of communication; - proprietary vs open-source platform; - in-house or outsourced operation; - selection of user application (UA): * risk of proliferation of UA applications, * aggregating UA apps (eg Mattermost); - tapered (rather than abrupt) transition; - parallel support for alternative delivery channels; --- I hope this helps. Niall