hackathon discussion at RIPE 78 opensource-wg session
Happy New Year Everyone! RIPE has hosted several very successful RIPE NCC Hackathons. I have helped IETF and MEF start and run a series of Hackathons. I spoke about these at RIPE 76. There was a suggestion from Vesna at that time to create a common page on which we post information about such events. The current RIPE hackathon page (https://labs.ripe.net/hackathons) is a good start. I would be happy to add to this. I would like to propose having some time at RIPE 78 to discuss open source efforts like these various hackathons, what is working well, what is not, and how we can improve them. For example, the IETF hackathons need to be better about turning hackathon code into contributions to projects that are easy to find, use, and contribute to any time rather than just in the context of the hackathon. Another example is competition. Some people think hackathons are perceived as being too competitive and non-inclusive. I do not agree, and I try to make it very clear that the IETF hackathons are collaborative and open to newcomers, but the fact I need to keep stating this means there is a problem and an opportunity to do something better. What do others think about having some time in the opensource-wg to share information, ideas, issues, and potential solutions? Would it be better to have a workshop? What about doing both? Martin and Ondrej, I understand this is your call to make, so I hope you do not mind me posting here to help get a sense of interest and help refining the idea. Cheers, Charles
On 9 Jan 2019, at 16:09, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) via opensource-wg wrote:
Happy New Year Everyone!
RIPE has hosted several very successful RIPE NCC Hackathons. I have helped IETF and MEF start and run a series of Hackathons. I spoke about these at RIPE 76. There was a suggestion from Vesna at that time to create a common page on which we post information about such events. The current RIPE hackathon page (https://labs.ripe.net/hackathons) is a good start. I would be happy to add to this.
I would like to propose having some time at RIPE 78 to discuss open source efforts like these various hackathons, what is working well, what is not, and how we can improve them. For example, the IETF hackathons need to be better about turning hackathon code into contributions to projects that are easy to find, use, and contribute to any time rather than just in the context of the hackathon. Another example is competition. Some people think hackathons are perceived as being too competitive and non-inclusive. I do not agree, and I try to make it very clear that the IETF hackathons are collaborative and open to newcomers, but the fact I need to keep stating this means there is a problem and an opportunity to do something better.
[Answering this on a personal level - not as chair] I’m always a bit torn between the usefulness of Hackathons. I also have to admit, that I never attended a RIPE hackathon (Sorry, Vesna! I really should…) On one side, I think they are interesting to bring newcomers up to speed on some interesting topic (as some hackathons are more towards getting participation) while at other times I feel more like hackathons are a exploitation for companies to give them ideas to monetize. Sometimes it also just feels like a group of people using the chance to finish some work (ie prototype implementation for a IETF draft) which they could do anywhere else as well. Just some last minute finishing up the work. But it might be an interesting discussion why someone attends (or does not attend or stopped attending) hackathons.
What do others think about having some time in the opensource-wg to share information, ideas, issues, and potential solutions? Would it be better to have a workshop? What about doing both?
Martin and Ondrej, I understand this is your call to make, so I hope you do not mind me posting here to help get a sense of interest and help refining the idea.
[back to WG-chair mode] We are “only” the chairs, trying to figuring out what’s best or most interesting to community. So pushing this a bit back to the community: Opinions? Should we host a round-table discussion on this? Or some other form of discussion? Anyone wants to talk about good or bad experiences on a hackathon? Regards, Martin Winter
Hi Martin, Please see comments inline, marked with [cue] On 1/11/19, 7:24 AM, "Martin Winter" <mwinter@netdef.org> wrote: On 9 Jan 2019, at 16:09, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) via opensource-wg wrote: > Happy New Year Everyone! > > RIPE has hosted several very successful RIPE NCC Hackathons. I have > helped IETF and MEF start and run a series of Hackathons. I spoke > about these at RIPE 76. There was a suggestion from Vesna at that time > to create a common page on which we post information about such > events. The current RIPE hackathon page > (https://labs.ripe.net/hackathons) is a good start. I would be happy > to add to this. > > I would like to propose having some time at RIPE 78 to discuss open > source efforts like these various hackathons, what is working well, > what is not, and how we can improve them. For example, the IETF > hackathons need to be better about turning hackathon code into > contributions to projects that are easy to find, use, and contribute > to any time rather than just in the context of the hackathon. Another > example is competition. Some people think hackathons are perceived as > being too competitive and non-inclusive. I do not agree, and I try to > make it very clear that the IETF hackathons are collaborative and open > to newcomers, but the fact I need to keep stating this means there is > a problem and an opportunity to do something better. [Answering this on a personal level - not as chair] I’m always a bit torn between the usefulness of Hackathons. I also have to admit, that I never attended a RIPE hackathon (Sorry, Vesna! I really should…) On one side, I think they are interesting to bring newcomers up to speed on some interesting topic (as some hackathons are more towards getting participation) while at other times I feel more like hackathons are a exploitation for companies to give them ideas to monetize. [cue] True; however, I have worked hard to make sure the IETF hackathons do not fall into this category, both in terms of the projects and the atmosphere. Vesna has done similar with RIPE hackathons. We hack on things related to IETF and RIPE rather than on any company's proprietary platform. That said, we can certainly do more to dispel and avoid misconceptions. This is one topic I think would be good to explore further. Sometimes it also just feels like a group of people using the chance to finish some work (ie prototype implementation for a IETF draft) which they could do anywhere else as well. Just some last minute finishing up the work. [cue] Yes, but I see that as a good thing. In the case of IETF hackathons, they give us a chance to put other priorities aside and focus with peers on getting things done that move IETF work forward. But it might be an interesting discussion why someone attends (or does not attend or stopped attending) hackathons. [cue] Agreed. There is definitely room for improvement. Constructive criticism and new ideas would be great. > What do others think about having some time in the opensource-wg to > share information, ideas, issues, and potential solutions? Would it be > better to have a workshop? What about doing both? > > Martin and Ondrej, I understand this is your call to make, so I hope > you do not mind me posting here to help get a sense of interest and > help refining the idea. [back to WG-chair mode] We are “only” the chairs, trying to figuring out what’s best or most interesting to community. So pushing this a bit back to the community: Opinions? Should we host a round-table discussion on this? Or some other form of discussion? Anyone wants to talk about good or bad experiences on a hackathon? [cue] I obviously am in favor of it. I hope others chime in as well. Regards, Martin Winter Cheers, Charles
Hi Martin and Open Source WG, On 11/01/2019 16:24, Martin Winter wrote:
[back to WG-chair mode] We are “only” the chairs, trying to figuring out what’s best or most interesting to community.
So pushing this a bit back to the community:
Opinions? Should we host a round-table discussion on this? Or some other form of discussion?
Yes, I would be interested to have this discussion.
Anyone wants to talk about good or bad experiences on a hackathon?
I can share my (personal) experiences with the IETF hackathons that have been organised in the past four years. For me and my colleagues at NLnet Labs, IETF hackathons were an excellent opportunity to implement upcoming or new internet standards in one of our projects. The IETF hackathons bring software developers together in a room where they can discuss issues, collaborate in a project or carry out interop tests. As an example for the DNS crowd at the hackathons, we have worked on DNS privacy in various settings, with DNS "vendors" (for example CZ.NIC, ISC, NLnet Labs and PowerDNS), the software developers of Sinodun or individuals of different organizations. On the other hand, with the implementation of DNS-over-HTTPS during the IETF hackathon in London last year, many ambiguities in the internet draft were reported and clarifications were sent to the authors. A hackathon is therefore valuable for both sides: making open source code of new standards available to the community; and feedback to authors of internet drafts to improve their documents. I have seen similar results from the TLS protocol and software developers, in which the new TLS 1.3 specification was (partially) implemented and tested with different applications. The development of QUIC libraries and applications using the libraries also profited enormously from the hackathons: interop matrices were presented with successes and failures, and as such helping the developers of the various libraries. The integrity of hackathons can be safeguarded by the organisers, I think. For example, by setting some rules and expectations for participation (by a project) and participants. Cheers, -- Benno -- Benno J. Overeinder NLnet Labs https://www.nlnetlabs.nl/
participants (3)
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Benno Overeinder -
Charles Eckel (eckelcu) -
Martin Winter