Hi, Could we please stop with any character based arguments? By design, anyone can participate in RIPE. In my opinion, the primary question remains: The RIPE NCC has already implemented additional security controls regarding transfers from distressed territories, like Ukraine. Is there any evidence that this additional screening is not already sufficient? Have there been any actual cases of IP addresses being stolen in the RIPE region (before or after these additional measures were introduced)? Perhaps we should take even more action before this can be attempted, but if not I believe we can have a calmer and more relaxed discussion. I do also want to remind everyone of a few facts regarding this situation: 1. RIPE policies are decided based on consensus. Your goal should not be to make yourself seem like the winner as you don't just need a majority to make or change policies. You need to not have a meaningful amount of objections, which is clearly not the case at the moment. 2. The RIPE NCC is bound by the RIPE policies. It cannot make its own changes to transfer policy (outside changing slight implementation details, such as how to carry out the screening) unless they are legally required. LIRs could, and likely would, take legal action against the NCC if they suffer financial damages due to the NCC going against the established policies. 3. There is no framework for temporarily freezing resources until a potential new RIPE policy can be put in place. This in itself would require a new policy. Maybe these are things that should be discussed now so we can have a framework for them in the future. Personally, I currently see the following issues with the proposals, but I'm sure they could be addressed if we go back to having a civilized discussion: If we block transfers from certain regions (or all of RIPE) completely, this removes a means for companies to obtain money they might need to keep operating. I am not particularly concerned about companies that obtain resources solely to profit off them, but it's possible that a company might sell part of its IP space to recover from an unexpected bad financial situation. One of my companies has done this earlier this year. This seems especially realistic for Ukrainian companies given the current situation in Ukraine. While of course IP addresses may be needed to rebuild networks, as is money, and I doubt there aren't ISPs who have more IP space than they need. If we give LIRs a way to opt into a resource lock, this might give a way for rogue employees to severely hurt their employer, for example shortly before being fired or quitting. This could probably be worked around by having an unlock procedure (which might involve a video call or in-person meeting with NCC staff) or by notifying all contacts and having a grace period of a week or two to cancel the lock. With either option, it is possible that transfers still unofficially take place, just without being reflected in the RIPE database. This would cause the RIPE database to become less accurate. There is no real practical requirement for IP space to be registered to someone before they can use it. — Matthias Merkel [https://cdn.staclar.com/logos/novecore/newlogo.png] [Sent from Front] On November 1, 2022 at 10:24 PM GMT+1 fap@fap.com.ua<mailto:fap@fap.com.ua> wrote: For the first time, I want to thank the "army" of Mr. Tulyev, who so actively joined in supporting Maxim's position regarding LIR and IP address transfers. Given that my job as a parliamentarian is primarily to work with citizens, I have of course studied your suggestions. Unfortunately, none of you dears have provided any suggestions, and I do not know how to work with emotions. Separately, I want to draw your attention to the fact that everything you write is not true, that is, you are lying. Why so, they ask me? Everything is very simple, it is written by employees of the company owned by Mr. Tuliev, I understand that times are difficult, everyone needs to earn money. But I ask you, dear employees, Mr. Maksym, to pay attention to the letter from the Internet Association of Ukraine. https://inau.ua/sites/default/files/file/2210/ref.-no-94-dd-26-october-2022.... This letter was supported by 9 out of 12 members of the board of the Internet Association of Ukraine, Maksym voted against it, he has the right. I would like to remind you that the Internet Association of Ukraine is the largest industry association. I cannot go against the decisions of sufficiently powerful public non-governmental organizations, so I also support their proposals. That is, when you mention me, you must first address the public. The second public organization APPK also took the initiative, as did the Internet Association of Ukraine https://www.appk.org.ua/ru/news/show/predstavnitsya-appk-v%D1%96ktor%D1%96ya... APPK writes, therefore, with the provision of preserving our resource, with the provision of security for our colleagues from unnecessary threats, a decision is now proposed to freeze all transfers from Ukraine, while all possible regulatory mechanisms and the impossibility of risky transfers are being discussed. What do you suggest, dear #Askochenskaya Alexandra, #Olha Sira, #Alexander Buzaev, #Kseniya Sokol, #bravephoenixbird, #Paul BD.? Try, as concerned citizens, to understand the issue and convince the public. Separately, I would like to draw attention to a strange site https://www.urdn.com.ua/ and Pavlo B.D., which looks like a fraudulent Internet resource that does not comply with three normative legal acts of Ukraine and two Laws of Ukraine. So, my proposal regarding the meeting is correct, in Kyiv you can choose the place yourself, I will meet you with great respect. I want to recall the proposals of two public associations of Ukraine, which I support. Until RIPE NCC develops safe rules for the transfer of IP addresses, freeze any transfers IP adress throughout the territory of Ukraine. PS when the obscure bot Paul BD writes about patriotism, I want to meet this bot/human with double power, I'm sure we can exchange exactly the military experience of defending our territory since the Russian invasion, starting in 2014. Perhaps I will learn something new, or you will tell about the experience, always useful, and we will immediately decide on a business trip with things to Russia. -- To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg

Dear Alexander, I am not an employee of Mr. Tulyev. And I haven't ever been. :) If you read my email, please reply on my question. It isn't too emotional. I wrote here to express my objections to your initiatives to forbid IP transfers or to create government committee, which would accept transfers or not. Current transfer policy is reliable. Olha Sira On Tue, Nov 1, 2022, 9:23 PM FAP_IMC <fap@fap.com.ua> wrote:

For the first time, I want to thank the "army" of Mr. Tulyev, who so actively joined in supporting Maxim's position regarding LIR and IP address transfers.

Given that my job as a parliamentarian is primarily to work with citizens, I have of course studied your suggestions.

Unfortunately, none of you dears have provided any suggestions, and I do not know how to work with emotions.

Separately, I want to draw your attention to the fact that everything you write is not true, that is, you are lying. Why so, they ask me? Everything is very simple, it is written by employees of the company owned by Mr. Tuliev, I understand that times are difficult, everyone needs to earn money.

But I ask you, dear employees, Mr. Maksym, to pay attention to the letter from the Internet Association of Ukraine.

https://inau.ua/sites/default/files/file/2210/ref.-no-94-dd-26-october-2022....

This letter was supported by 9 out of 12 members of the board of the Internet Association of Ukraine, Maksym voted against it, he has the right.

I would like to remind you that the Internet Association of Ukraine is the largest industry association.

I cannot go against the decisions of sufficiently powerful public non-governmental organizations, so I also support their proposals.

That is, when you mention me, you must first address the public.

The second public organization APPK also took the initiative, as did the Internet Association of Ukraine

https://www.appk.org.ua/ru/news/show/predstavnitsya-appk-v%D1%96ktor%D1%96ya...

APPK writes, therefore, with the provision of preserving our resource, with the provision of security for our colleagues from unnecessary threats, a decision is now proposed to freeze all transfers from Ukraine, while all possible regulatory mechanisms and the impossibility of risky transfers are being discussed.

What do you suggest, dear #Askochenskaya Alexandra, #Olha Sira, #Alexander Buzaev, #Kseniya Sokol, #bravephoenixbird, #Paul BD.?

Try, as concerned citizens, to understand the issue and convince the public.

Separately, I would like to draw attention to a strange site https://www.urdn.com.ua/ and Pavlo B.D., which looks like a fraudulent Internet resource that does not comply with three normative legal acts of Ukraine and two Laws of Ukraine.

So, my proposal regarding the meeting is correct, in Kyiv you can choose the place yourself, I will meet you with great respect.

I want to recall the proposals of two public associations of Ukraine, which I support. Until RIPE NCC develops safe rules for the transfer of IP addresses, freeze any transfers IP adress throughout the territory of Ukraine.

PS when the obscure bot Paul BD writes about patriotism, I want to meet this bot/human with double power, I'm sure we can exchange exactly the military experience of defending our territory since the Russian invasion, starting in 2014. Perhaps I will learn something new, or you will tell about the experience, always useful, and we will immediately decide on a business trip with things to Russia.

--

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01.11.22 23:23, FAP_IMC пише:

For the first time, I want to thank the "army" of Mr. Tulyev, who so actively joined in supporting Maxim's position regarding LIR and IP address transfers.

That's not the army of Max Tulyev. The only I did is explained people what will be with their resources in case of your blockage. Unlike you, I can't push people to do something by fear and treats, I'm not a corrupted government official.

Separately, I want to draw your attention to the fact that everything you write is not true, that is, you are lying. Why so, they ask me? Everything is very simple, it is written by employees of the company owned by Mr. Tuliev, I understand that times are difficult, everyone needs to earn money.

Lie. None of people, except Ksenia Sokol, are employee of any mine (or even affiliated) companies.

Separately, I would like to draw attention to a strange site https://www.urdn.com.ua/ and Pavlo B.D., which looks like a fraudulent Internet resource that does not comply with three normative legal acts of Ukraine and two Laws of Ukraine.

That's the government control as it is. These people are illegal because of you don't like their website. Don't hear them.

So, my proposal regarding the meeting is correct, in Kyiv you can choose the place yourself, I will meet you with great respect.

Aha, in jail, just because you can arrange it. Funny, but no.

Until RIPE NCC develops safe rules for the transfer of IP addresses, freeze any transfers IP adress throughout the territory of Ukraine.

Once again: 1. Why the current rules are unsafe for your point of view? 2. What you think will be safe?