Should we have a RIPE archivist?
Hello all, tl;dr I think that we should have a RIPE archivist. More words: I was looking at some historical RIPE meeting records recently, and I noticed that as we go further back in time the quality of records gets worse. Formats are inconsistent, information is missing, and so on. Generally the records about RIPE meetings have improved recently, with working group minutes being easily accessible, plenary agendas clear, and so on. I appreciate the work that the RIPE NCC comms team has done to make it better! However, I think that it is reasonable to try to organize the old information as much as possible. For instance, minutes from working group sessions from many years ago are not on the web pages; although probably these can be found in mailing list archives in many cases. Other basic information like who was chair of which working group at any given time are difficult to find. I think the RIPE NCC should hire someone to improve the records. Probably such improvement would involve a couple of phases: 1. Initial work of going through all of the old records for the past 29 years and collecting them into a consistent, coherent set of data that is available on a set of web pages. 2. Establishing some tools and guidelines going forward, and actually applying them for future meetings and other RIPE activities so we don't have to repeat the exercise every 29 years. 😉 I know this would cost money, but it doesn't seem like it would be that expensive; certainly the 2nd, ongoing phase is not a full-time job. (It might be possible to give this task to one of the current staff, but that would mean taking away work from their current duties, and I have a feeling that there are people with training and experience that companies and other organizations use for this sort of work.) Anyway, please let me know if you think this idea makes sense or not. Cheers, -- Shane
Hi, On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 09:43:00PM +0000, Shane Kerr wrote:
tl;dr I think that we should have a RIPE archivist.
With my old age showing, I like more easily accessible memories. So, +1 Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
+1 I usually make my own archive of all the documents. I would prefer an archivist. Hopefully I could still use sed/awk/grep/diff etc. if I needed. Cheers, -- Bengt Gördén Resilans AB
With my old age showing, I like more easily accessible memories.
stress the easily accessible and not moving and breaking every time a new marketing whim comes along needing to show their chops by reorganizing the darned thing. grumble grumble randy
Let me grumble with you on this one :)
On 27 Apr 2018, at 15:16, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
With my old age showing, I like more easily accessible memories.
stress the easily accessible and not moving and breaking every time a new marketing whim comes along needing to show their chops by reorganizing the darned thing.
grumble grumble
randy
+1 And its not only presentations and such, but also photographs etc.
On 26. Apr 2018, at 23:43, Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org> wrote:
tl;dr I think that we should have a RIPE archivist.
-- Wolfgang Tremmel Phone +49 69 1730902 26 | Fax +49 69 4056 2716 | Mobile +49 171 8600 816 | wolfgang.tremmel@de-cix.net Geschaeftsfuehrer Harald A. Summa | Registergericht AG Köln HRB 51135 DE-CIX Management GmbH | Lindleystrasse 12 | 60314 Frankfurt am Main | Germany | www.de-cix.net
-1, It doesn't make sense to me at this stage. Arash On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:06 PM, Wolfgang Tremmel < wolfgang.tremmel@de-cix.net> wrote:
+1 And its not only presentations and such, but also photographs etc.
On 26. Apr 2018, at 23:43, Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org> wrote:
tl;dr I think that we should have a RIPE archivist.
-- Wolfgang Tremmel
Phone +49 69 1730902 26 | Fax +49 69 4056 2716 | Mobile +49 171 8600 816 | wolfgang.tremmel@de-cix.net Geschaeftsfuehrer Harald A. Summa | Registergericht AG Köln HRB 51135 DE-CIX Management GmbH | Lindleystrasse 12 | 60314 Frankfurt am Main | Germany | www.de-cix.net
Hi, On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 01:32:23PM +0430, Arash Naderpour wrote:
-1,
It doesn't make sense to me at this stage.
Why, exactly? In Address-Policy, for example, many of the current policies go back to discussions we had years and years ago. So having more easily accessible archives of "old discussions" would help newcomers to understand better why things evolved the way they did... Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 11:13:47AM +0200, Gert Doering wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 01:32:23PM +0430, Arash Naderpour wrote:
-1,
It doesn't make sense to me at this stage.
Why, exactly? In Address-Policy, for example, many of the current policies go back to discussions we had years and years ago. So having more easily accessible archives of "old discussions" would help newcomers to understand better why things evolved the way they did...
If APWG feels there is a need to guide newcomers, APWG can write a FAQ or newcomers document themselves. This should be a working group activity. To be honest I don't see a lot of value in this proposition. It already is part of RIPE NCC's duties to make the website and published documents usable and searchable. I'm not sure what an (opinionated?) historican really adds here. Kind regards, Job
Hi, On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 09:21:03AM +0000, Job Snijders wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 11:13:47AM +0200, Gert Doering wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 01:32:23PM +0430, Arash Naderpour wrote:
-1,
It doesn't make sense to me at this stage.
Why, exactly? In Address-Policy, for example, many of the current policies go back to discussions we had years and years ago. So having more easily accessible archives of "old discussions" would help newcomers to understand better why things evolved the way they did...
If APWG feels there is a need to guide newcomers, APWG can write a FAQ or newcomers document themselves. This should be a working group activity.
I was just pointing out one example where Arash, as an active APWG participant, could see benefit in having easy access to old discussions. Doing this WG by WG does not seem like reasonable use of WG resources. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi,
Why, exactly? In Address-Policy, for example, many of the current policies go back to discussions we had years and years ago. So having more easily accessible archives of "old discussions" would help newcomers to understand better why things evolved the way they did...
If APWG feels there is a need to guide newcomers, APWG can write a FAQ or newcomers document themselves. This should be a working group activity.
I think this goes beyond WGs, Gert was just using that as an example. Who, for example, would curate the lir working group’s history? Or netnews?
To be honest I don't see a lot of value in this proposition. It already is part of RIPE NCC's duties to make the website and published documents usable and searchable. I'm not sure what an (opinionated?) historican really adds here.
I can see a use for curating historical information regarding the NCC and the RIPE community, but I’m also wary of adding headcount at the NCC to do it. Is this something, perhaps, that a team of volunteers (with suitable historical knowledge of the NCC and the community) could do as a task force? Cheers, Rob
Hi, I support the archivist idea and I am also willing to contribute with media, and potential stories in order to complete various historic episodes that played a vital role during the manifestation of the RIR-inauguration. brief list of ideas for milestone: o initial RIPE idea o from research to association (ex-TERENA) o growth of reach, importance, influence and responsibility I really *do* like the idea.
I can see a use for curating historical information regarding the NCC and the RIPE community, but I’m also wary of adding headcount at the NCC to do it. Is this something, perhaps, that a team of volunteers (with suitable historical knowledge of the NCC and the community) could do as a task force?
Regards, Kurt
On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 10:42:02AM +0100, Rob Evans wrote:
I can see a use for curating historical information regarding the NCC and the RIPE community, but I???m also wary of adding headcount at the NCC to do it. Is this something, perhaps, that a team of volunteers (with suitable historical knowledge of the NCC and the community) could do as a task force?
I sympathize with this point of view. Saying that NCC should pay for something or hire someone to do something while we do have recurring discussion about member fees is imho at least careless. Piotr -- Piotr Strzyżewski Silesian University of Technology, Computer Centre Gliwice, Poland
Hi, On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 01:20:07PM +0200, Piotr Strzyzewski wrote:
I sympathize with this point of view. Saying that NCC should pay for something or hire someone to do something while we do have recurring discussion about member fees is imho at least careless.
I totally disagree with this view. Someone will always complain that the fees are too high (and I might even agree with them, like, for a non-for-profit, the RIPE NCC member fees *are* high) - but using that as an argument to stop any sort of investment does not lead anywhere useful. Of course we shouldn't be wasting money carelessly - but spending money to improve what the NCC is there for (being a secretariat for the members' benefit) is not automatically "wasting money". Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 01:41:50PM +0200, Gert Doering wrote: Gert,
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 01:20:07PM +0200, Piotr Strzyzewski wrote:
I sympathize with this point of view. Saying that NCC should pay for something or hire someone to do something while we do have recurring discussion about member fees is imho at least careless.
I totally disagree with this view. Someone will always complain that the fees are too high (and I might even agree with them, like, for a non-for-profit, the RIPE NCC member fees *are* high) - but using that as an argument to stop any sort of investment does not lead anywhere useful.
Of course we shouldn't be wasting money carelessly - but spending money to improve what the NCC is there for (being a secretariat for the members' benefit) is not automatically "wasting money".
While I do understand your point of view, I still keep in mind the ROI point of view (if we treat having archivist on duty as "sort of investment"). I haven't seen any potential benefit (let's keep the "sort of investment" terminology) from keeping formats more consistent (kind of accusation from the original post). And believe me or not - while I was making recently some stats about active members of our assotiation just for last 10 years (1/3 of our history), I was astonished by number of ways the data were provided during those _recent_ years. Been there recently, the same way, I suppose, Shane was. Piotr -- Piotr Strzyżewski Silesian University of Technology, Computer Centre Gliwice, Poland
On 28 Apr 2018, at 12:41, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Of course we shouldn't be wasting money carelessly
... but wasting money *deliberately* is OK. :-) Sorry, couldn’t resist... FWIW employing an archivist is a bad idea and a waste of money. It’s yet another step towards a bloated bureaucracy. Museums and ancient institutions might be able to justify having archivists on their payroll. RIPE and the NCC don't have that sort of history. At least not yet. I hope. I’m decidedly uncomfortable about going in that direction. That said, there might be some value in capturing documents and memories from the early days. [Wasn’t there some sort of history project launched a few years ago?] Many of the Old Farts will be retiring soon. Some already have. And a few, sadly, are no longer alive. It would be useful to gather that information before it’s lost or forgotten forever. I’m not sure how to best go about doing that. A full time(?) archivist on a permanent or indefinite contract seems wrong though.
Hi,
That said, there might be some value in capturing documents and memories from the early days. [Wasn’t there some sort of history project launched a few years ago?] Many of the Old Farts will be retiring soon. Some already have. And a few, sadly, are no longer alive. It would be useful to gather that information before it’s lost or forgotten forever. I’m not sure how to best go about doing that. A full time(?) archivist on a permanent or indefinite contract seems wrong though.
Would you be happier to give the NCC the task "making sure documents and memories from both current and past RIPE activities are properly archived" and leave the implementation details to them? I personally think having a dedicated person for this is an acceptable solution, but I see other do not. And maybe specifying roles instead of tasks is too much micro-management anyway :) Cheers, Sander
On 28 Apr 2018, at 16:51, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Would you be happier to give the NCC the task "making sure documents and memories from both current and past RIPE activities are properly archived" and leave the implementation details to them?
Probably - though the task would need to be more clearly scoped: milestones, deliverables, metrics, reporting/review/end dates, etc. When proposals for new projects are open-ended and/or vaguely defined, they activities tend to drift or accumulate cruft. Or morph into something different because the expectations and requirements were not clear enough at the outset. That also makes it hard to declare victory or decide when something has outlived its usefulness. IMO we should avoid getting into those sorts of situations.
On 4/26/18 11:43 PM, Shane Kerr wrote:
I think the RIPE NCC should hire someone to improve the records.
hi, thank you for this input; I would express my strong agreement and add some more reasons: - archives ready for historical research on RIPE's (at large) activity; - provide organized open data; - write and publish periodic articles on historical facts and events. moreover, I think it's time that every big organisation involved in Internet governance (RIRs, IANA, ICANN, IETF, etc) starts, if not already started, to re-collect documents and information of the last decades and present data and results in a friendly (according to the relevant standards) format. all this could help to ease access to "our" information according to an historical perspective. thank you -- antonio
Hi Shane,
tl;dr I think that we should have a RIPE archivist.
I agree. There is much historical information that is mostly only known to "us old people", and having someone who focusses on making that information/knowledge/experience available to new generations would be a good thing. Damn, I'm sounding old… Sander
Hi, On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 12:29:55AM +0200, Sander Steffann wrote:
Damn, I'm sounding old???
So this is why you are retiring already... :) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 09:43:00PM +0000, Shane Kerr wrote:
tl;dr I think that we should have a RIPE archivist.
More words:
I was looking at some historical RIPE meeting records recently, and I noticed that as we go further back in time the quality of records gets worse. Formats are inconsistent, information is missing, and so on.
Have you tried to contact relevant NCC department about missing information on the web page? [cut]
I think the RIPE NCC should hire someone to improve the records.
This is a false dillema. That is why I do not agree with that. There are other means to achieve this goal than hiring someone by RIPE NCC. Piotr -- Piotr Strzyżewski Silesian University of Technology, Computer Centre Gliwice, Poland
participants (14)
-
Antonio Prado -
Arash Naderpour -
Bengt Gördén -
Gert Doering -
Jim Reid -
Joao Damas -
Job Snijders -
Kurt Kayser -
Piotr Strzyzewski -
Randy Bush -
Rob Evans -
Sander Steffann -
Shane Kerr -
Wolfgang Tremmel