Hello All, Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why? I think RIPE NCC works under Dutch law, so if The Netherlands don't accept Crimea annexion - RIPE NCC should not accept these papers. In other case, RIPE NCC very probably violates Dutch law. Am I right?
On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote:
Hello All,
Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why?
Max, all, the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation provided by our members. This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national authority the member chooses. cheers, Axel
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? On 28.07.14 18:25, Axel Pawlik wrote:
On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote:
Hello All,
Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why?
Max, all,
the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation provided by our members.
This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national authority the member chooses.
cheers, Axel
Hi, On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max, what are you trying to achieve? There is no good answer to that question. Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia all on their own (which sounds quite legit to me), in a democratic decision - or it was an annection by Russia (not overly legit, but has happened in the past). This is not something the RIPE NCC can solve, and I think Axel's answer was as salomonic as possible: the NCC serves it's *members*, not any government in particular. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi Gert, for my knowlege, there was NO democratic decision, at least becuse of all international observers (excepr Russian, of course) said the vote itself was totally fake, but I'm not about it now. NO GOVERMENT IN THE WORLD, including Dutch one, accepted Crimea is a part of Russia. So why RIPE NCC does? If papers issued by Russian goverment in Crimea is acceptable because it is good for some members, can RIPE NCC accept same papers issued in Crimea say Principality of Sealand goverment as well? And the main question: Has RIPE NCC legal rights to accept that kind of documents at all? What RIPE NCC lawyers say? On 28.07.14 21:04, Gert Doering wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max, what are you trying to achieve? There is no good answer to that question.
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia all on their own (which sounds quite legit to me), in a democratic decision - or it was an annection by Russia (not overly legit, but has happened in the past). This is not something the RIPE NCC can solve, and I think Axel's answer was as salomonic as possible: the NCC serves it's *members*, not any government in particular.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
Max, I unterstund that you are not very happy what happend last time. This is very bad situation for all people. We are not politics. Our community help people work. Axel suggested very smart solution - any paper from any goverment. I support this position. This is neutral decussion, which allow people work in Internet. -- Aleksei 28.07.2014 22:26 - Max Tulyev написал(а): Hi Gert, for my knowlege, there was NO democratic decision, at least becuse of all international observers (excepr Russian, of course) said the vote itself was totally fake, but I'm not about it now. NO GOVERMENT IN THE WORLD, including Dutch one, accepted Crimea is a part of Russia. So why RIPE NCC does? If papers issued by Russian goverment in Crimea is acceptable because it is good for some members, can RIPE NCC accept same papers issued in Crimea say Principality of Sealand goverment as well? And the main question: Has RIPE NCC legal rights to accept that kind of documents at all? What RIPE NCC lawyers say? On 28.07.14 21:04, Gert Doering wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max, what are you trying to achieve? There is no good answer to that question.
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia all on their own (which sounds quite legit to me), in a democratic decision - or it was an annection by Russia (not overly legit, but has happened in the past). This is not something the RIPE NCC can solve, and I think Axel's answer was as salomonic as possible: the NCC serves it's *members*, not any government in particular.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
RIPE said they are neutral. I interpret that to mean that if a member chooses one over the other, that is up to them. There are a variety of reasons why one might choose one over the other, including no other choice but to do so. That shouldn't prevent someone from getting the resources they need. Best, -M< On Jul 28, 2014, at 1:57 PM, Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
On 28.07.14 18:25, Axel Pawlik wrote:
On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote:
Hello All,
Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why?
Max, all,
the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation provided by our members.
This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national authority the member chooses.
cheers, Axel
On 28/07/2014 18:57, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max, the ripe ncc's purpose as RIR is to register ip addresses, not to decide who is the legitimate government in any particular territory. Nick
On 28.07.14 21:21, Nick Hilliard wrote:
On 28/07/2014 18:57, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max, the ripe ncc's purpose as RIR is to register ip addresses, not to decide who is the legitimate government in any particular territory.
So I can use "legal" paper from any goverment to proof the existance of company for example, and hostmasters should believe me? If not - why?
On 28.07.14 21:21, Nick Hilliard wrote:
On 28/07/2014 18:57, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max, the ripe ncc's purpose as RIR is to register ip addresses, not to decide who is the legitimate government in any particular territory.
To be short, I say any *paper* issued by Russian goverment in Crimea, recognized to all the world (except RIPE NCC?) as illegal.
Just understood in case of LIR - RIPE NCC *signs the contract* with that entity. Is it legal at all? Is it already a subject of sanctions?
On 28/07/2014 19:52, Max Tulyev wrote:
Just understood in case of LIR - RIPE NCC *signs the contract* with that entity. Is it legal at all? Is it already a subject of sanctions?
The EU declared a round of sanctions a couple of days ago, which are listed here:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=OJ:JOL_2014_221_R_0001&from=EN
I can't see any RIPE NCC members on that list. Perhaps there are some PI holders - someone else can check that out. Nick
Is it legal in EU in general to enter any contractual relations with Crimean companies found in Russian law? I can quckly google articles about the ban of bank transactions at least, and ban of goods exchange. But I'm not a lawyer so I can't decide is that ban covers services or only physic goods? On 28.07.14 22:15, Nick Hilliard wrote:
On 28/07/2014 19:52, Max Tulyev wrote:
Just understood in case of LIR - RIPE NCC *signs the contract* with that entity. Is it legal at all? Is it already a subject of sanctions?
The EU declared a round of sanctions a couple of days ago, which are listed here:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=OJ:JOL_2014_221_R_0001&from=EN
I can't see any RIPE NCC members on that list. Perhaps there are some PI holders - someone else can check that out.
Nick
On 28/07/2014 20:31, Max Tulyev wrote:
Is it legal in EU in general to enter any contractual relations with Crimean companies found in Russian law?
from what I understand, it is generally ok in the EU with the exceptions listed in that EC directive - although from a practical point of view, it's very difficult getting anything in or out of the peninsula. Nick
On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Not necessarily, I see it more of akin to a situation where a member is registered in country A but requests resources in Country B. Both .ua and .ru are in the RIPE Service Region, after all. If there is a territorial dispute between countries in different service regions, it might be more "interesting". rgds, Sascha Luck
No, that's not discussion about regions and politics. That's a discussion just about legal status of some papers. On 28.07.14 21:30, Sascha Luck wrote:
On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Not necessarily, I see it more of akin to a situation where a member is registered in country A but requests resources in Country B. Both .ua and .ru are in the RIPE Service Region, after all. If there is a territorial dispute between countries in different service regions, it might be more "interesting".
rgds, Sascha Luck
participants (7)
-
Axel Pawlik -
Gert Doering -
Hannigan, Martin -
LeaderTelecom Ltd. -
Max Tulyev -
Nick Hilliard -
Sascha Luck