Hay, On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 04:02:16PM +0200, Dominic Spratley wrote:
Hi Daniel,
I hope I can clarify some of your points below:
actually i didn't really want to get into this discussion, but it looks like _noone_ else has anything to say about the issues Daniel raised? Than can't be since he is right in most points.
At 03:37 AM 8/21/2003 +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote: [...]
most points have been more-or-less clearified by Dominic's answer, but:
- [EQUIPMENT DESCRIPTION]
This requirement _can't_ be meant serious. We're not on April 1st, are we? The silliness of such information requirement was already recognized within the IPv6 allocation realm, so why introducing it now again for IPv4?
This is a difficult one as it does require the LIR to do more preparation on their side. The less time a Hostmaster spends sending E-mails asking for additional information, the sooner the LIR gets their requested resource. Asking for the type of equipment used really helps the Hostmaster understand what and why IP addresses are being requested.
... i still have a problem here if that should be a "must provide this information". I have no much problems with questions like "why-pi" or "routing-reasons" because they can obviously be answered with standard phrases (which renders them useless again, but if RIPE NCC sees that many "bad" requests from many LIRs (aren't they trained?), it's OK for me, no much work, no stupid questions). BUT... information like the equipment being used or a network plan or so _must_ be optional information, not _required_ information. It can't be that a company is _required_ to make statements about their network and equipment if they want to have IP-Adresses! (and no, RIPE doesn't always qualify for receiving such information). Besides that it's way too much work to fill that in seriously for big requests, and doesn't really make sense for small requests. This should be _optional_ information in cases where it's needed to explain an unusual request, whatever, "we have only one machine but it has 500 IP Adresses due to this and that special purpose which can't be handled otherwise due to these and those hardware and software limitations". Is it really only me who is of that opinion, or noone recognized this problem or doesn't think it's a problem? Or isn't it meant as _required_ information anyways and a "N/A" is enough in most cases as answer to this part of the request? ...curious. The reason i noticed that this might get a problem was due to the unholy [...] #[REQUIRED INFORMATION]# [...] % % 2. Please provide a network diagram in PostScript or JPEG % format showing your IPv6 network. Submission instructions % can be found in the RIPE document "Supporting Notes for the % Initial IPv6 Allocation Request Form in the RIPE NCC Service % Region" found at: % % http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ipv6-support-initial.html % % The diagram should indicate expected completion dates of % construction as well as how much IPv6 address space is % expected to be used in each subnet. % % [...] in the (old and new) IPv6 Initial Allocation request form. Since it says "required information" there, i already assumed that it might get a problem to get the IPv6 Allocation for us without providing this one. But i didn't see the point in doing so if i can make our network plans clear in text form, and explain the reasons why a network diagram for an IPv6 network is _completely_useless_ in general at the moment and especially in our case. Though, even on my 2nd mail on that request i just got the reply from some RIPE Hostmistress that "the inability to provide this network topology map calls into question the need for the IPv6 addresses being requested.". At the moment i'm really mad about this. We are currently prevented from deploying IPv6 addresses immediately because i don't have any Windows PC with Viso or something at hand, let alone the time to paint a very useless topology of our IPv6 overlay network, though i explained it in detail in text. (Not to mention that the statement that an active LIR which assigns IPv4 addresses for years is questioned that it will assign IPv6 addresses just because it doesn't like to waste time on painting network maps of some routers and tunnels is VERY doubiously to me.) Why the hell is such information _required_? Information about what equipment being used and a network topology map on a picture might be additional information at best. I fear that IP(v4) request will be denied or at least delayed in future if the RIPE Hostmasters are gonna complain about missing or unsatisfying information about the equipment in the future, too. That's not acceptable i think. But i might be wrong, we're realatively small and don't have that many requests in general, i just wonder why noone of the "big LIRs" sees this problem? You all have AWs that big that you don't care about filling in RIPE forms anyways and have payed managers to paint network diagrams all day? *hint* :)
Further, the term "peer" is used in a very unclear way in the ASN request form and the supporting notes.
Formerly, one uplink and one peer (commercial term) were enough to justify an ASN, as this constitutes a "unique routing policy". The ASN request form allows this interpretation of "peering partners" with "peering" in the technical sense. BUT the supporting notes specifically mention the requirement for two peers to "ensure that the organisation is multihomed". For me, multihoming means to have at least two _upstreams_. This would be a more stricter policy than before. What was the real intention behind these phrases? These documents should be very specific in the usage of "peer". It might be interpreted technically or commercially, each implying different constraints. I suggest changing the wording from "peer" to "upstream" in order to avoid ambiguities.
Again this is a good point. However I don't think that either term is appropriate for all situations. When writing these documents we used the word peer as we wanted to emphasise it was the routing policy which was important.
So, the policy didn't change to "you have to have two _upstreams_ to get an ASN" but it's only a language-confusion here? P.S.: I think this discussion belongs to the address-policy-wg, not ncc-services-wg? Sorry for crossposting, remove the latter in any replies if i'm right. -- ========================================================================== = Sascha 'master' Lenz SLZ-RIPE slz@baycix.de = = NOC BayCIX GmbH = = http://www.noc.baycix.de/ * PGP public Key on demand * = ==========================================================================