- ncc-services-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [ncc-services-wg] UA IP transfers situation
by Максим Смелянец 02 Nov '22

02 Nov '22

Hi everyone, Persanly having hope that "Mafia home", as Maxim Tuliev called, is not the biggest two Telecom Community Chats in the country as Telecom Ukraine and Ukoz ... ), where Ondřej Filip Executive Board Member can watch all market meanings under this question himself. We have already discussed it there and everyone saw that is no real ground of Max's suggestion in any threat to his adress. At the same time Ukraian community is united under suggestion to provide frize period for the hall Ukrainian terrytory till new rules for transactions will be implemeted. We need some time to provide these new rules in Ripe NCC and everyone understand that. Suggestions for these new rules that brought up is likely suited for most of Ripe members, Ukrainian accossiations and market players in Ukraine. Best regards and with prey that Ripe will hear Ukrainian community and not few members that even not living in Ukraine right now and transfered main part of their LIR outside of Ukraine. Maxim Smelianets Co-founder Telecom Ukraine Community

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A friendly reminder!
by Rob Evans 02 Nov '22

02 Nov '22

Dear colleagues, We understand that the invasion of Ukraine has put a lot of pressure on Ukrainian network operators. There are likely to be differences of opinion on how to handle any potential proposal to restrict, or not, the sale or transfer of resources, and all WG members are free to put their case forward for either side of the argument. However, this is a friendly reminder to keep the discussion open and civil, respecting others' viewpoints. Please also keep the discussion to the topics within the charter of this working group. Many thanks, Rob, Kurtis, Bijal NCC Services WG Co-chairs

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wrote a generalized response to the "proposals" of Oleksandr Askochenska, Olga Syroya, Oleksandr Buzaev, Ksenia Sokol, horobrifeniksptah, Pavlo B.D. regarding the issue of banning the transfer of IP addresses of Ukraine.
by FAP_IMC 02 Nov '22

02 Nov '22

For the first time, I want to thank the "army" of Mr. Tulyev, who so actively joined in supporting Maxim's position regarding LIR and IP address transfers. Given that my job as a parliamentarian is primarily to work with citizens, I have of course studied your suggestions. Unfortunately, none of you dears have provided any suggestions, and I do not know how to work with emotions. Separately, I want to draw your attention to the fact that everything you write is not true, that is, you are lying. Why so, they ask me? Everything is very simple, it is written by employees of the company owned by Mr. Tuliev, I understand that times are difficult, everyone needs to earn money. But I ask you, dear employees, Mr. Maksym, to pay attention to the letter from the Internet Association of Ukraine. https://inau.ua/sites/default/files/file/2210/ref.-no-94-dd-26-october-2022… This letter was supported by 9 out of 12 members of the board of the Internet Association of Ukraine, Maksym voted against it, he has the right. I would like to remind you that the Internet Association of Ukraine is the largest industry association. I cannot go against the decisions of sufficiently powerful public non-governmental organizations, so I also support their proposals. That is, when you mention me, you must first address the public. The second public organization APPK also took the initiative, as did the Internet Association of Ukraine https://www.appk.org.ua/ru/news/show/predstavnitsya-appk-v%D1%96ktor%D1%96y… APPK writes, therefore, with the provision of preserving our resource, with the provision of security for our colleagues from unnecessary threats, a decision is now proposed to freeze all transfers from Ukraine, while all possible regulatory mechanisms and the impossibility of risky transfers are being discussed. What do you suggest, dear #Askochenskaya Alexandra, #Olha Sira, #Alexander Buzaev, #Kseniya Sokol, #bravephoenixbird, #Paul BD.? Try, as concerned citizens, to understand the issue and convince the public. Separately, I would like to draw attention to a strange site https://www.urdn.com.ua/ and Pavlo B.D., which looks like a fraudulent Internet resource that does not comply with three normative legal acts of Ukraine and two Laws of Ukraine. So, my proposal regarding the meeting is correct, in Kyiv you can choose the place yourself, I will meet you with great respect. I want to recall the proposals of two public associations of Ukraine, which I support. Until RIPE NCC develops safe rules for the transfer of IP addresses, freeze any transfers IP adress throughout the territory of Ukraine. PS when the obscure bot Paul BD writes about patriotism, I want to meet this bot/human with double power, I'm sure we can exchange exactly the military experience of defending our territory since the Russian invasion, starting in 2014. Perhaps I will learn something new, or you will tell about the experience, always useful, and we will immediately decide on a business trip with things to Russia.

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Dear Olga Syra and Paul BD, thank you for your correspondence and position, but I would like to start a discussion not about personalities, but about proposals, the transfer of IP addresses from Ukraine.
by Федієнко Олександр Павлович 02 Nov '22

02 Nov '22

Thank you, Ms. Olga, for your answer. If you read my answer, please note that I wrote absolutely nothing about actions. My proposal was precisely in the direction that RIPE NCC should develop the policies itself, and until such time as it does not have them, block transfers of IP addresses from the territory of Ukraine. There were letters from the public that expressed a slightly different position, which I wrote about. https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-services-wg/2022-November/00365… I also believe that the current transfer procedure is imperfect and carries risks with regard to Ukraine's information security. That is why we really need to discuss this issue. Paul BD, thanks for your replies, but any suggestions? I don't have the resources, but I believe that there are risks in transferring IP addresses, especially in occupied territories. So, yes, new policies need to be developed to protect those LIRs that are delegated the use of IP addresses. I also see risks regarding state information resources that are based on and use IP addresses that, for example, belong to IP addresses that are not under the jurisdiction of Ukraine. I am confident that the RIPE NCC working group should look into these issues and make recommendations Paul BD, tell me who exactly I called and threatened? :) If we are talking about the text of Mr. Tulev, then he is fooling the society, and instead of being constructive, he continues to accuse that someone is threatening him. Maxim fled the country, so nobody is interested in his active life. Considering you are unconstructive, thanks for the chat, and goodbye. I don't know who your lawyer is, but he is right, give him congratulations.

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Regarding information manipulation, regarding the situation with the transfer of IP addresses on the territory of Ukraine.
by FAP_IMC 01 Nov '22

01 Nov '22

Здравствуйте, . Dear colleagues, my name is Oleksandr Fedienko. I think it's not every day that parliamentarians write to you here, but considering that recently I have been mentioned quite often in correspondence, I want to write something from myself. A little about myself, I started working for an internet company around 1993 and have worked in the digital communications industry all my life. I have personally built many Internet companies, am a certified expert in cyber security, OSINT, have four higher education degrees, and now have a master's degree in law. For five years in a row, he was elected to the Internet Association of Ukraine, becoming the chairman of the board, and defending the interests of our industry. This is so that you, dear community, have an idea about my competence. I am sure that many people know that Ukraine is currently defending its territory from an armed attack by Russia. We defend on all fronts, on the battlefield with small arms, internationally, I was recently at the MCE in Bucharest, and we also defend our cyber space. Cyber attacks are constantly taking place on enterprises of our critical infrastructure, our information space is overflowing with Russian propaganda and phishing scammers who are trying to extort the last money from the citizens of Ukraine. That is why we introduce various mechanisms to protect our cyberspace. At one time, the operators themselves proposed to block all AS of Russian operators. This is a separate topic for discussion, but the information domen RU that affected the citizens of our country has practically disappeared from the Internet space of Ukraine. Regarding the topic of blocking transfers of IP addresses according to the mechanisms that will be introduced by RIPE NCC. Unfortunately, in addition to the fact that we need to take care of the security of our cyberspace, we already have cases when IP addresses, in the occupied territories of Ukraine, which are routed in the networks of Ukrainian operators, begin to be re-issued to other companies. I also want to remind you that the war is going on throughout the territory of Ukraine. Our people throughout Ukraine are under constant 24/7 rocket fire. Therefore, it is impossible to separate one thing. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that we expect that there may also be a military intervention from the side of Belarus, so the transfer blocking mechanisms IP adress should be in place throughout Ukraine. I apologize to the community for the long text, maybe emotional in some cities, but definitely not from a bot account. I don't know why a person who escaped from a country where Russian missiles or Iranian drones fly every day is trying to deceive the RIPE NCC community. Connecting through an outdated mechanism for expressing the opinion of their bots. Analyzing some texts, I see that they were written by the same person, somewhat rearranging the words, but under different emails. I want to draw attention to the instructions for bots that Mr. Maksym is currently promoting, which is used to form the opinion of a supposedly community from Ukraine. And also on the not quite modern mechanism of digital information exchange on the platform of RIPE NCC. «We still have a chance to stop the robber. You have to work with his own methods. To do this, subscribe to the ncc-services-wg mailing list here https://www.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg/ And write there that these figures do not represent the Ukrainian community, but represent «exclusively their own selfish interests. They are trying to accuse me of some kind of financial schemes. If the person Maksym Tulyev really possesses such information according to the rules of a civilized society, he should report it to the Ukrainian law enforcement agencies. I'm even ready to take a polygraph with this person, which is true, then he needs to return to the country where the missiles fly. In summary, apart from the issue of the security of Ukrainian cyberspace, we do not intend to express any other opinions. I am sure that RIPE NCC will listen to the position of the public, namely those companies of residents of Ukraine that work on the territory of Ukraine. I hope that until RIPE NCC implements a secure transfer of IP addresses, all transfers on the territory of Ukraine will be closed. I ask the RIPE NCC community to explain to LIR that IP addresses are not their property, they have acquired the right to use them on the basis. The fact is that now Mr. Maksym is trying to introduce the idea that IP addresses are goods and property that can be the subject of financial trading. I would like to thank Mr. Ondrej Filip for your position, which you expressed at the profile meeting of Telecom Ukraine. «Max and A.F., please, I am not a judge. I can read your emails, but do not expect my involvement. And also keep in mind, during the NCC services WG I promised, that EB will consider some temporarily solution. The mood in the room was supporting this. However some the final policy must be decided by «the community. I hope that RIPE NCC will find security mechanisms, this is how Ukraine conducts war, and we will defend ourselves on all fronts, even in cyberspace. I would like to remind you that legally martial law has been imposed on the territory of Ukraine. Currently, rules are being developed for state institutions using IP addresses, but so far only for state institutions. We are waging war against a country whose size is 28 times larger than our state, whose population is 4 times larger than ours, whose military potential is many times greater than our capabilities. We wage war on land, in the air, at sea, in cyberspace, and more. We are not at war for 8 months, but for 8 years and 8 months. All this testifies to our resilience, courage to defend our own and thirst to win. Would other countries withstand such pressure? Today alone, the enemy fired 55 Kh-101 cruise missiles and one Kh-59 guided air missile, 22 S-300 anti-aircraft missiles, 4 Shahid-136 UAVs and one Lancet-3 UAV at civilian targets in Ukraine. I don't know how, but we are holding on, regrouping, building up reserves, strengthening defenses and gradually liberating our homeland. Victory is given to us very hard. But she will definitely be. With respect to RIPE NCC Fedienko Oleksandr

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UA IP transfers situation Askochenskaya Alexandra
by Федієнко Олександр Павлович 01 Nov '22

01 Nov '22

Thank you, Ms. Oleksandra, for mentioning me in your letter. Unfortunately, we don't know you personally, but I'm sure that if you want to get a transparent answer, I can treat you to coffee and give you answers. Now about that, about: 1) the question of how to protect Ukrainian Internet resources from theft, and to avoid coordination monopolization of the IP transfers by one state body, which is a direct path to corruption. I fully support your p1! But in order to protect Ukrainian Internet resources from theft, it is necessary to recognize that these Ukrainian Internet resources are located on IP addresses that belong to someone. And precisely because we do not understand and do not know to whom they belong, and the mechanisms of influence, we all propose that RIPE NCC develop security mechanisms. And at that time there are no such mechanisms, any transfers should be frozen, especially those transfers on which Ukrainian Internet resources are located. Another problem is state Ukrainian Internet resources. And it will be a very unfortunate situation when, for example, state Ukrainian Internet resources will be located on IP addresses of LIRs that are not under the jurisdiction of Ukraine. But taking into account cyberattacks, and believe me, they happen all the time on our information Ukrainian Internet resources, the state will make decisions on protection. It is also a battlefield. I hope that RIPE NCC will still create a group and develop new transfer policies. p2 Regarding the alleged spam from me :) If you carefully read the letters that I wrote, ONE letter, and not a typed text from Mr. Maksym, I hope you will draw conclusions. That immediately in my first letter, as well as in the letter of the Internet Association of Ukraine, I appealed to RIPE NCC to start making policies. But I did not expect that I would affect Maxim Tulyev's business interests, and he would start such an informational attack. I fully support you in the part that EVERY Ukrainian, REGARDLESS of where he lives, should make efforts for our victory against Russia. Glory to Ukraine.

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UA IP transfers situation
by Askochenskaya Alexandra 01 Nov '22

01 Nov '22

..Specially for Elena Kushnir Are you telling all of us how and from where Ukrainians should work for the victory of Ukraine?. My friends spend half of their time abroad, as they are engaged in the search and delivery of humanitarian help and cars for the Armed Forces. Our Ukrainians have even visited every military store in Europe. My sister has been living in Germany for more than 10 years, and she has been volunteering since 2014. And in general, statements that the Ukrainian diaspora, wherever it is (Canada, Spain, Poland) should not interfere in internal Ukrainian affairs, are outrageous and offend millions of Ukrainians. Choose your words more carefully. Better let's go back to 1) the question of how to protect Ukrainian Internet resources from theft, and to avoid coordination monopolization of the IP transfers by one state body, which is a direct path to corruption. 2) spam mailing from Oleksandr Fedienko, which explicitly calls to vote for the blocking of resources, without explaining the consequences of such a rash decision. -- Best regards, Alexandra Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 12:41:20 +0100 From: ????? ?????? <kea(a)webpro.net.ua> To: Leonid Khorolets <inetcomas29442(a)gmail.com> Cc: Gert Doering <gert(a)space.net>, Viktoriia Opanasiuk <viktoriia.opanasiuk(a)gmail.com>, ncc-services-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] UA IP transfers situation Message-ID: <BB7516C9-339A-4E4E-880A-43168767CB75(a)webpro.net.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Good afternoon, I congratulate Maksym Tulyev?s good friend - Mr. Leonid Khorolets ( I am attaching a photo of these friends) https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=419278544911556&set=p.4192785449115… <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=419278544911556&set=p.4192785449115…> I am the director and co-owner of the company WEB PRO, UKRAINIAN LIR Registry ID:ua.webpro, a communication operator that continues to work under bombs. I am not a person from the authorities, I have nothing to do with government bodies (these are only my clients), I do not trade IP addresses compared to YOU, and first of all I think about the security of my network and other operators. Also, I represent not only my interests, but also the interests of the Internet Association of Ukraine, which delegated me to the conference. AS A BOARD MEMBER, MAXIM TULYEV has done nothing since 2014 except to protect his business by making money from the sale of IP addresses. Thank you for your support of Ukraine, I hope this will continue to be the solution. Pay attention, we are not talking about any financial restrictions of citizens of Ukraine, every day we are constantly cyberattacked by IP addresses, this is one of the components of the issue of cyber security. I support the proposals that we, representatives of the public sector, voiced at the conference. I remind you that we look for constructive discussions and are looking for solutions. I continue many consultations on our issue, collect the evidence base both with the help of coercion, threats to life and forged documents, the operators were left without networks. This is the first step to IP transfer And let me remind, that Ukrainian comunity LIR to be those that are currently in Ukraine, not in Spain! I want to summarize - this hysteria that is happening gives me strength. Because we are on the right path. Together we will win! ___ Best regards, Olena Kushnir www.webpro.ua

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UA IP transfers situation
by Kseniya Sokol 01 Nov '22

01 Nov '22

Dear Fedienko Olexandr You can personally know me. And I know almost all LIRs in Ukraine, and end users, which are holders of IP addresses. And all of them are outraged by your letters that you allegedly act on their behalf. There is no company or person who is the owner of IP blocks that want voluntarily limit themselves in the rights and opportunities to dispose of their resources. You want a public vote: so do it. Let the IP owners decide for themselves. BUT real owners of IP addresses, not your friends, collegues, and employees. Otherwise we will do a public letter with signatures of LIRs and End users, showing that no one gave you the right to say on their behalf. Best regards, Kseniia

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Re: [ncc-services-wg] UA IP transfers situation
by Viktoriia Opanasiuk 31 Oct '22

31 Oct '22

Hi All ! > Hi All! > > Let me point out what is happening with Ukrainian resources > transfers. > > We are now facing with the hugest government based attack > against our basic principles of government free self > regulation. > > I think the real target of the attacker is to obtain > a financial gain from IPv4 market. > > First, the deputy of Ukrainian Parliament Olexandr Fedienko > wrote a letter to RIPE NCC with the initiative of hand-checking > transfer requests with Ukrainian government agency. This idea > was not accepted neither by Ukrainian, nor by European > community. People understand this is a step out from RIPE > community self-governance and the source of corrupted money for > this agency as it should decide either pass the transfer or > not. > > After that initiative was rejected, Fedienko with the help of > his representatives at the RIPE 85 meeting in Belgade tried to > ban all the transfers outside Ukraine. His representatives > promoted a set of very expressive and emotional speeches about > possible forced transfers. He also used his power and pushed > a set of Ukrainian companies to register online to RIPE 85 (and > for some reason - for GM, I think he just don't understand the > difference) and to send a copy-pasted message about support of > the ban. > > The idea is to close the market, limiting the transfers only to > Ukrainian companies. The proposal is to temporarily deny ALL transfers, inside and outside of Ukraine, so that all resource holders will remain with what they have, and nobody could possibly get hold of their resources. > And to buy resources almost for free, as the war pushes people > to sell it, while the buy offers are very limited. It looks > logical. But their arguments for the ban are not. This is very hypothetical scenario, based on wrong assumption, described one paragraph above. And even if that assumption would not be wrong, it is quite unrealistic that Ukrainian companies that maintain infrastructure and struggle to rebuild networks on destroyed or de-occupied territories are going to sell their IP addresses to get some profit - they do not have enough of them already, how are they going to get more? On the other hand, there is quite real scenario for companies whose business is based on re-selling IP addresses or providing "services" of moving resources out of Ukraine, including the one that Max Tulyev announced just several days ago ( https://www.facebook.com/mt6561/posts/pfbid0273c1ndwbZXBLc9ST7sFwisCC9o8Bw9… ). Such businesses will not thrive if the transfers will be frozen. Of course, these companies are also part of the RIPE community. But the community could choose what values it supports. > They said they need the whole-Ukrainian ban to protect > resources at the distressed areas against the forced transfer. > > First, while RIPE NCC accepts "documents" issued on the > occupied territories based on LPR/DPR/Russian jurisdiction, > this ban of Ukrainian resources transfer can be easily avoided > just using these "documents". Including for the real forced > transfers. It isn't clear what is the problem you describe here. However, it is a problem that many companies from those territories are registered by RIPE NCC based on registration papers issued either by russia or dnr/lnr, and therefore might not be seen as Ukrainian. Ideally RIPE NCC should block transfers of companies registered on the whole internationally recognized territory of Ukraine, including all occupied territories. > Second, it is nothing to do with Ukrainian companies based on > the territories not in the distress area. From the war front > line to for example Uzhgorod city there are ~800km and 2000m > high mountains. Why should we complicate the life for these > companies? For someone who fled the country it might seem that there are distressed areas and areas "behind high mountains". But the reality in Ukraine is that the whole country is distressed. There are companies registered in what you describe as "safe areas", but they have representatives on all territory of the country, including occupied areas. Or the head of a company in the "safe" territory could have relatives who are under occupation. In all such cases they could be threatened and forced to sign transfer documents. > Third, it is unclear why transfers inside Ukraine should not be > banned for the time the policy is being updated. If we really > have the problem, it is logical to ban all transfers. Again, the proposal is to temporarily hold all transfers of Ukrainian holders. > Forth, I asked many times to show any example of the forced > transfer in the distress area. They can't. I did not hear any > of these situations myself. So for me the problem they are > trying to solve did not even exist. > > This situation with the possible country-wide transfer ban rose > a big discussion in Telecom Ukraine telegram channel, which is > a discussion point for a lot of (but not all) Ukrainian > Internet and telecom companies. > > Instead of explaining things for my requests, Olexandr Fedienko > call me there a hidden Russian FSB agent, and Olena Kushnir > said I do not understand that "we should keep a valuable > resource inside our country during the war". But sorry, these > are definitely not their resources! So they should not tell > holders what to do with it, until we are not live in > a Communist country where all things belongs to the government. > > This situation makes deeply concern Ukrainian community and > resources holders. We are really afraid some of this proposals > will be implemented without consensus inside Ukrainian > community, just because of government letters, emotional > speeches. And definitely without any "closed meetings" (C) > Olena Kushnir with NCC staff inaccessible for people with > another opinion. > > It will be so kind if RIPE NCC officials release a statement > where they clearly state they will not implement any bans for > resource holders not in the distress area. And any changes on > the policy will be implemented with the current policy > development process, consensus, and in the co-operation with > all community. This will calm down the situation and will > convince people that NCC really respects and protects the > interests of the community members. > > Thank you very much for the long reading! > And in the end it will be better if we focus our efforts on solving the problem, and not on writing a hypothetical stories. The discussion should be constructive and effective. Thanks. Viktoriia Opanasiuk

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Re: [ncc-services-wg] UA IP transfers situation
by Viktoriia Opanasiuk 31 Oct '22

31 Oct '22

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