- ncc-services-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [ncc-services-wg] Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks
by Yuri Varenitsa 13 Dec '22

13 Dec '22

Dear all We have sent almost dozen of tickets starting the November. Neither one is closed. What should I say to the clients? How long will it take now to get the answer to the tickets? Can you give please approximate date of feedback? There is no such attitude even towards Iran and ru. All agreements and contracts were hung up thanks to the "wonderful" actions of Fedienko and co, which are even NOT a LIR at all. "They helped so much." What will we do next? -- Kind regards, Yuri Varenytsa On 08.12.2022 12:59, Kseniya Sokol wrote: > > > > -------- Перенаправленное сообщение -------- > Тема: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks > Дата: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 16:08:50 +0200 > От: Max Tulyev <president(a)ukraine.su> > Кому: ncc-services-wg(a)ripe.net > > Indeed. > > There are a lot of countries never had open online company register. And > transfers works with them well. > > 06.12.22 13:21, Olha Sira пише: >> Dear Olena, >> >> I am speaking about controlled territories and entities that >> registered on the controlled territories. You are aware that borders >> of the occupied territories change slightly near the front line, but a >> big part of the country isn't affected by direct contact with >> Russians. I am sorry, but it looks like you are trying to misrepresent >> information about the general situation in Ukraine and get an >> advantage from that situation in our country. You mention horror and >> violence in uncontrolled territories, which is an obvious fact. But >> you are using this fact to convince RIPE NCC to keep blocking the >> transfers for the rest of Ukraine, which isn't occupied. >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 6:50 PM Олена Кушнір <kea(a)webpro.net.ua >> <mailto:kea@webpro.net.ua>> wrote: >> >> Good afternoon, Dear Colleagues and Olga >> >> I don't agree with you about " But there isn't direct contact with >> Russians, who might force IP >> holders to make unlawful transfers." >> Contact can be with people in the occupied territories through an >> email address. There are quite a few arguments for physical impact >> on people, because horrors and violence occur in uncontrolled >> territories. >> Also, the borders of occupied and unoccupied territories change >> every day. >> I must also remind you _that open company registries are not >> available_ during wartime. That is why it is technically impossible >> to check the legitimacy of the signatory when making transactions. >> >> Yes, the open _company registries are not available _at the moment. >> But the solution has been introduced. I wouldn't be so categoretic >> that a legitimacy of the signatory is impossible to check. >> >> >> Thanks to the RIPE NCC team for their work. >> And we support temporary blocking of IP- transfers during the war. >> >> >> _______________ >> Best regards, >> Olena Kushnir >> >> www.webpro.ua <http://www.webpro.ua> >> >> >>> 5 груд. 2022 р. о 12:24 Olha Sira <vasylevych(a)gmail.com >>> <mailto:vasylevych@gmail.com>> написав(ла): >>> >>> Dear Hans Petter Holen and Colleagues, >>> >>> It was an extremely good and balanced decision to continue IP >>> address >>> transfers for companies based on Ukrainian Government-controlled >>> territories. >>> But it looks like a hidden ban exists. There haven't been any >>> accomplished transfers for Ukrainian IP holders since the RIPE 85 >>> meeting. >>> It leads to problems with the fulfillment of obligations to >>> counterparties and creates barriers in operating activities. >>> >>> Please note, that for Ukrainian Government-controlled territory the >>> danger and difficulties are rockets and drone attacks and >>> electricity >>> outages, which cause absence of water and heating. >>> But there isn't direct contact with Russians, who might force IP >>> holders to make unlawful transfers. As was written in the previous >>> discussion, blocking transfers for the Ukrainian >>> Government-controlled >>> territory does more harm than good. >>> >>> Your comprehension are greatly appreciated. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Olha Sira >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 3:26 PM Hans Petter Holen >>> <hph+announce(a)ripe.net <mailto:hph+announce@ripe.net>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear colleagues, >>>> >>>> At last week’s RIPE 85 meeting in Belgrade, the RIPE community >>>> discussed ways to further protect the resources of Ukrainian >>>> networks. I want to provide a brief summary of what we heard at >>>> RIPE 85 and outline what we will be doing next. >>>> >>>> At the meeting, there seemed to be general support for the >>>> following points: >>>> >>>> - Apply a temporary freeze on all transfers from Ukrainian >>>> networks until a better solution can be found >>>> - Implement a way for members concerned that they are at risk to >>>> lock their resources and prevent them from being transferred for >>>> a set period of time >>>> - The RIPE NCC should be able to act on urgent matters without >>>> going through the policy development process, especially as >>>> policy changes will take several months to complete the RIPE PDP >>>> even if there is unanimous support >>>> - Ukrainian operators do not want government to take a more >>>> active role in terms of approving registry updates >>>> - The RIPE NCC should move on this matter with urgency >>>> >>>> However, we do note that there have been further comments on the >>>> mailing lists arguing against a blanket freeze on transfers. >>>> >>>> As an immediate response, all transfer requests from Ukrainian >>>> networks will be escalated to me until further notice. We will of >>>> course continue to apply the highest levels of due diligence when >>>> reviewing these requests. This will add some amount of delay, >>>> which I think is entirely appropriate under the circumstances and >>>> given the seriousness of the concerns that have been raised. >>>> >>>> This should be seen as a temporary measure which has the >>>> advantage of being something we can apply straight away. RIPE NCC >>>> staff are currently investigating additional short-term measures >>>> and we will update you on our next steps after these have been >>>> discussed with the Executive Board. >>>> >>>> We will continue to follow all discussions that take place on the >>>> mailing lists in the meantime. >>>> >>>> Kind regards >>>> >>>> Hans Petter Holen >>>> Managing Director >>>> RIPE NCC >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, >>>> or change your subscription options, please visit: >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg >>>> <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg> >>> >>> -- >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or >>> change your subscription options, please visit: >>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg >>> <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg> >> >> >

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Ukrainian transfers
by Max Tulyev 13 Dec '22

13 Dec '22

Hi All, I'm writing about Ukrainian IP transfers again. During the last RIPE meeting we have figured out there is NO consensus about freezing all transfers of Ukrainian resources. But in fact this freeze was implemented by RIPE NCC staff. There was no transfers since that time, and hostmasters tells "we are still waiting for decision of RIPE NCC management in regards to the Ukrainian transfers". This means Ukrainian companies depending on that transfers can not fulfill their obligations to contractors because of RIPE NCC. This also means they will have to pay fines to contractors as well. Also I'm afraid if transfers will not be executed until the end of December, some companies wishes to close their LIRs after the transfer will be pushed to pay a next year payment to NCC. And all of that is for our members are in financial distress because of the war. It means the current RIPE NCC staff do not rely anymore on community, as the ban was implemented in the situation of no community consensus, but under the pressure of doubtful government representatives. So, do we really want to have that RIPE(NCC)?

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Re: [ncc-services-wg] Ukrainian transfers
by Max Tulyev 13 Dec '22

13 Dec '22

Nice. What about Donetsk and Kherson, which are "officially russian" same way? 13.12.22 16:34, ksyu(a)netassist.ua пише: > > ... that RIPE(NCC) that added COUNTRY RU > to the companies which are located in Crimea > > And do not make any ua transfers. > > This is not the position "that you are out politics" > > Regards, Kseniia > > -------- Оригінальне повідомлення -------- > Від: Max Tulyev <president(a)ukraine.su> > Дата: 13.12.22 14:32 (GMT+01:00) > Кому: ncc-services-wg(a)ripe.net > Тема: [ncc-services-wg] Ukrainian transfers > > Hi All, > > I'm writing about Ukrainian IP transfers again. > > During the last RIPE meeting we have figured out there is NO consensus > about freezing all transfers of Ukrainian resources. But in fact this > freeze was implemented by RIPE NCC staff. There was no transfers since > that time, and hostmasters tells "we are still waiting for decision of > RIPE NCC management in regards to the Ukrainian transfers". > > This means Ukrainian companies depending on that transfers can not > fulfill their obligations to contractors because of RIPE NCC. This also > means they will have to pay fines to contractors as well. > > Also I'm afraid if transfers will not be executed until the end of > December, some companies wishes to close their LIRs after the transfer > will be pushed to pay a next year payment to NCC. > > And all of that is for our members are in financial distress because of > the war. > > It means the current RIPE NCC staff do not rely anymore on community, as > the ban was implemented in the situation of no community consensus, but > under the pressure of doubtful government representatives. > > So, do we really want to have that RIPE(NCC)? > > -- > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or > change your subscription options, please visit: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg >

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Re: [ncc-services-wg] Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks
by Viktoriia Opanasiuk 03 Nov '22

03 Nov '22

Dear Hans Petter Holen, Thank you for your decision and proposal and for paying so much attention to the issues of Ukraine. It is really very important for our community. We realize that everyone has the right to their own position. We will continue to work and participate in working groups to reach the best solution and I really hope that after these temporary measures the discussion will become more constructive. With best regards, Viktoriia Opanasiuk

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Re: [ncc-services-wg] UA IP transfers situation
by Максим Смелянец 02 Nov '22

02 Nov '22

Hi everyone, Persanly having hope that "Mafia home", as Maxim Tuliev called, is not the biggest two Telecom Community Chats in the country as Telecom Ukraine and Ukoz ... ), where Ondřej Filip Executive Board Member can watch all market meanings under this question himself. We have already discussed it there and everyone saw that is no real ground of Max's suggestion in any threat to his adress. At the same time Ukraian community is united under suggestion to provide frize period for the hall Ukrainian terrytory till new rules for transactions will be implemeted. We need some time to provide these new rules in Ripe NCC and everyone understand that. Suggestions for these new rules that brought up is likely suited for most of Ripe members, Ukrainian accossiations and market players in Ukraine. Best regards and with prey that Ripe will hear Ukrainian community and not few members that even not living in Ukraine right now and transfered main part of their LIR outside of Ukraine. Maxim Smelianets Co-founder Telecom Ukraine Community

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A friendly reminder!
by Rob Evans 02 Nov '22

02 Nov '22

Dear colleagues, We understand that the invasion of Ukraine has put a lot of pressure on Ukrainian network operators. There are likely to be differences of opinion on how to handle any potential proposal to restrict, or not, the sale or transfer of resources, and all WG members are free to put their case forward for either side of the argument. However, this is a friendly reminder to keep the discussion open and civil, respecting others' viewpoints. Please also keep the discussion to the topics within the charter of this working group. Many thanks, Rob, Kurtis, Bijal NCC Services WG Co-chairs

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wrote a generalized response to the "proposals" of Oleksandr Askochenska, Olga Syroya, Oleksandr Buzaev, Ksenia Sokol, horobrifeniksptah, Pavlo B.D. regarding the issue of banning the transfer of IP addresses of Ukraine.
by FAP_IMC 02 Nov '22

02 Nov '22

For the first time, I want to thank the "army" of Mr. Tulyev, who so actively joined in supporting Maxim's position regarding LIR and IP address transfers. Given that my job as a parliamentarian is primarily to work with citizens, I have of course studied your suggestions. Unfortunately, none of you dears have provided any suggestions, and I do not know how to work with emotions. Separately, I want to draw your attention to the fact that everything you write is not true, that is, you are lying. Why so, they ask me? Everything is very simple, it is written by employees of the company owned by Mr. Tuliev, I understand that times are difficult, everyone needs to earn money. But I ask you, dear employees, Mr. Maksym, to pay attention to the letter from the Internet Association of Ukraine. https://inau.ua/sites/default/files/file/2210/ref.-no-94-dd-26-october-2022… This letter was supported by 9 out of 12 members of the board of the Internet Association of Ukraine, Maksym voted against it, he has the right. I would like to remind you that the Internet Association of Ukraine is the largest industry association. I cannot go against the decisions of sufficiently powerful public non-governmental organizations, so I also support their proposals. That is, when you mention me, you must first address the public. The second public organization APPK also took the initiative, as did the Internet Association of Ukraine https://www.appk.org.ua/ru/news/show/predstavnitsya-appk-v%D1%96ktor%D1%96y… APPK writes, therefore, with the provision of preserving our resource, with the provision of security for our colleagues from unnecessary threats, a decision is now proposed to freeze all transfers from Ukraine, while all possible regulatory mechanisms and the impossibility of risky transfers are being discussed. What do you suggest, dear #Askochenskaya Alexandra, #Olha Sira, #Alexander Buzaev, #Kseniya Sokol, #bravephoenixbird, #Paul BD.? Try, as concerned citizens, to understand the issue and convince the public. Separately, I would like to draw attention to a strange site https://www.urdn.com.ua/ and Pavlo B.D., which looks like a fraudulent Internet resource that does not comply with three normative legal acts of Ukraine and two Laws of Ukraine. So, my proposal regarding the meeting is correct, in Kyiv you can choose the place yourself, I will meet you with great respect. I want to recall the proposals of two public associations of Ukraine, which I support. Until RIPE NCC develops safe rules for the transfer of IP addresses, freeze any transfers IP adress throughout the territory of Ukraine. PS when the obscure bot Paul BD writes about patriotism, I want to meet this bot/human with double power, I'm sure we can exchange exactly the military experience of defending our territory since the Russian invasion, starting in 2014. Perhaps I will learn something new, or you will tell about the experience, always useful, and we will immediately decide on a business trip with things to Russia.

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Dear Olga Syra and Paul BD, thank you for your correspondence and position, but I would like to start a discussion not about personalities, but about proposals, the transfer of IP addresses from Ukraine.
by Федієнко Олександр Павлович 02 Nov '22

02 Nov '22

Thank you, Ms. Olga, for your answer. If you read my answer, please note that I wrote absolutely nothing about actions. My proposal was precisely in the direction that RIPE NCC should develop the policies itself, and until such time as it does not have them, block transfers of IP addresses from the territory of Ukraine. There were letters from the public that expressed a slightly different position, which I wrote about. https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-services-wg/2022-November/00365… I also believe that the current transfer procedure is imperfect and carries risks with regard to Ukraine's information security. That is why we really need to discuss this issue. Paul BD, thanks for your replies, but any suggestions? I don't have the resources, but I believe that there are risks in transferring IP addresses, especially in occupied territories. So, yes, new policies need to be developed to protect those LIRs that are delegated the use of IP addresses. I also see risks regarding state information resources that are based on and use IP addresses that, for example, belong to IP addresses that are not under the jurisdiction of Ukraine. I am confident that the RIPE NCC working group should look into these issues and make recommendations Paul BD, tell me who exactly I called and threatened? :) If we are talking about the text of Mr. Tulev, then he is fooling the society, and instead of being constructive, he continues to accuse that someone is threatening him. Maxim fled the country, so nobody is interested in his active life. Considering you are unconstructive, thanks for the chat, and goodbye. I don't know who your lawyer is, but he is right, give him congratulations.

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Regarding information manipulation, regarding the situation with the transfer of IP addresses on the territory of Ukraine.
by FAP_IMC 01 Nov '22

01 Nov '22

Здравствуйте, . Dear colleagues, my name is Oleksandr Fedienko. I think it's not every day that parliamentarians write to you here, but considering that recently I have been mentioned quite often in correspondence, I want to write something from myself. A little about myself, I started working for an internet company around 1993 and have worked in the digital communications industry all my life. I have personally built many Internet companies, am a certified expert in cyber security, OSINT, have four higher education degrees, and now have a master's degree in law. For five years in a row, he was elected to the Internet Association of Ukraine, becoming the chairman of the board, and defending the interests of our industry. This is so that you, dear community, have an idea about my competence. I am sure that many people know that Ukraine is currently defending its territory from an armed attack by Russia. We defend on all fronts, on the battlefield with small arms, internationally, I was recently at the MCE in Bucharest, and we also defend our cyber space. Cyber attacks are constantly taking place on enterprises of our critical infrastructure, our information space is overflowing with Russian propaganda and phishing scammers who are trying to extort the last money from the citizens of Ukraine. That is why we introduce various mechanisms to protect our cyberspace. At one time, the operators themselves proposed to block all AS of Russian operators. This is a separate topic for discussion, but the information domen RU that affected the citizens of our country has practically disappeared from the Internet space of Ukraine. Regarding the topic of blocking transfers of IP addresses according to the mechanisms that will be introduced by RIPE NCC. Unfortunately, in addition to the fact that we need to take care of the security of our cyberspace, we already have cases when IP addresses, in the occupied territories of Ukraine, which are routed in the networks of Ukrainian operators, begin to be re-issued to other companies. I also want to remind you that the war is going on throughout the territory of Ukraine. Our people throughout Ukraine are under constant 24/7 rocket fire. Therefore, it is impossible to separate one thing. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that we expect that there may also be a military intervention from the side of Belarus, so the transfer blocking mechanisms IP adress should be in place throughout Ukraine. I apologize to the community for the long text, maybe emotional in some cities, but definitely not from a bot account. I don't know why a person who escaped from a country where Russian missiles or Iranian drones fly every day is trying to deceive the RIPE NCC community. Connecting through an outdated mechanism for expressing the opinion of their bots. Analyzing some texts, I see that they were written by the same person, somewhat rearranging the words, but under different emails. I want to draw attention to the instructions for bots that Mr. Maksym is currently promoting, which is used to form the opinion of a supposedly community from Ukraine. And also on the not quite modern mechanism of digital information exchange on the platform of RIPE NCC. «We still have a chance to stop the robber. You have to work with his own methods. To do this, subscribe to the ncc-services-wg mailing list here https://www.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg/ And write there that these figures do not represent the Ukrainian community, but represent «exclusively their own selfish interests. They are trying to accuse me of some kind of financial schemes. If the person Maksym Tulyev really possesses such information according to the rules of a civilized society, he should report it to the Ukrainian law enforcement agencies. I'm even ready to take a polygraph with this person, which is true, then he needs to return to the country where the missiles fly. In summary, apart from the issue of the security of Ukrainian cyberspace, we do not intend to express any other opinions. I am sure that RIPE NCC will listen to the position of the public, namely those companies of residents of Ukraine that work on the territory of Ukraine. I hope that until RIPE NCC implements a secure transfer of IP addresses, all transfers on the territory of Ukraine will be closed. I ask the RIPE NCC community to explain to LIR that IP addresses are not their property, they have acquired the right to use them on the basis. The fact is that now Mr. Maksym is trying to introduce the idea that IP addresses are goods and property that can be the subject of financial trading. I would like to thank Mr. Ondrej Filip for your position, which you expressed at the profile meeting of Telecom Ukraine. «Max and A.F., please, I am not a judge. I can read your emails, but do not expect my involvement. And also keep in mind, during the NCC services WG I promised, that EB will consider some temporarily solution. The mood in the room was supporting this. However some the final policy must be decided by «the community. I hope that RIPE NCC will find security mechanisms, this is how Ukraine conducts war, and we will defend ourselves on all fronts, even in cyberspace. I would like to remind you that legally martial law has been imposed on the territory of Ukraine. Currently, rules are being developed for state institutions using IP addresses, but so far only for state institutions. We are waging war against a country whose size is 28 times larger than our state, whose population is 4 times larger than ours, whose military potential is many times greater than our capabilities. We wage war on land, in the air, at sea, in cyberspace, and more. We are not at war for 8 months, but for 8 years and 8 months. All this testifies to our resilience, courage to defend our own and thirst to win. Would other countries withstand such pressure? Today alone, the enemy fired 55 Kh-101 cruise missiles and one Kh-59 guided air missile, 22 S-300 anti-aircraft missiles, 4 Shahid-136 UAVs and one Lancet-3 UAV at civilian targets in Ukraine. I don't know how, but we are holding on, regrouping, building up reserves, strengthening defenses and gradually liberating our homeland. Victory is given to us very hard. But she will definitely be. With respect to RIPE NCC Fedienko Oleksandr

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UA IP transfers situation Askochenskaya Alexandra
by Федієнко Олександр Павлович 01 Nov '22

01 Nov '22

Thank you, Ms. Oleksandra, for mentioning me in your letter. Unfortunately, we don't know you personally, but I'm sure that if you want to get a transparent answer, I can treat you to coffee and give you answers. Now about that, about: 1) the question of how to protect Ukrainian Internet resources from theft, and to avoid coordination monopolization of the IP transfers by one state body, which is a direct path to corruption. I fully support your p1! But in order to protect Ukrainian Internet resources from theft, it is necessary to recognize that these Ukrainian Internet resources are located on IP addresses that belong to someone. And precisely because we do not understand and do not know to whom they belong, and the mechanisms of influence, we all propose that RIPE NCC develop security mechanisms. And at that time there are no such mechanisms, any transfers should be frozen, especially those transfers on which Ukrainian Internet resources are located. Another problem is state Ukrainian Internet resources. And it will be a very unfortunate situation when, for example, state Ukrainian Internet resources will be located on IP addresses of LIRs that are not under the jurisdiction of Ukraine. But taking into account cyberattacks, and believe me, they happen all the time on our information Ukrainian Internet resources, the state will make decisions on protection. It is also a battlefield. I hope that RIPE NCC will still create a group and develop new transfer policies. p2 Regarding the alleged spam from me :) If you carefully read the letters that I wrote, ONE letter, and not a typed text from Mr. Maksym, I hope you will draw conclusions. That immediately in my first letter, as well as in the letter of the Internet Association of Ukraine, I appealed to RIPE NCC to start making policies. But I did not expect that I would affect Maxim Tulyev's business interests, and he would start such an informational attack. I fully support you in the part that EVERY Ukrainian, REGARDLESS of where he lives, should make efforts for our victory against Russia. Glory to Ukraine.

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