August 2003 - ncc-services-wg

Enhancing members involvements in NCC-Services-WG and RIPE NCC General Meetings
by azucena.hernandezperez＠telefonica.es 28 Aug '03

28 Aug '03

Dear colleagues , Some ideas have been circulating in various emails aiming for a bigger involvement of RIPE NCC members in both the NCC Services WG and the Annual General Meeting that, in my view, deserve consideration. I support the following ones: 1) Active Participation On-line: As far as I know the last RIPE meeting in Barcelona offered a webcast facility in one meeting room for the first time. I support the continuation of this service (in all meeting rooms) and its proper visibility to invite members unable to attend in person to do it remotely. I propose in addition some means to allow contributions to the open microphone sessions from remote attendants: either by phone (multiconference), by instant messaging and/or email. Proper consideration should be given to the remote contributions as much as those made "in person" in the meeting room. 2) Decision Making Tools On-line: RIPE NCC members interested on participating in the voting of items that affect them but unable for one or other reason to attend the Annual General Meetings should be given some more facilities than voting by proxy. Nowadays it is quite difficult to find 2 companies that have the same view on everything and therefore it's unlikely that a RIPE NCC member feels attracted to give its proxy to another one. If we believe on the services that we provide to our customers over Internet we can use them as well. Many international bodies have well established methods of approval on-line quite easy to implement. I propose that RIPE NCC sets up one in 2004. 3) More than one "Member type" for RIPE NCC: Some voices are expressing doubts about the cost/benefits regarding the RIPE NCC services that are not strictly related to IP registration. When my company joined RIPE NCC (3 years ago) these kind of services where already offered and we accepted them as a "bonus" on top of the pure registration services. The extra costs associated with these services impacts in our membership fee, that's true but, as it has not reached a painful threshold yet, we don't complain. I must say that we don't use the addtional services that much, but....... here there are just in case. It seems that the impact of the cost of the additional services is already painful for other RIPE NCC members. I must clearly say that if this trend of increasing the services provided reaches in the future a level that we consider unreasonable, we will complain as well. In the light of the previous words, I think that it is worth considering the possibility to set up 2 level of membership for RIPE NCC (in parallel to the present split by size) depending on the services required: - Basic RIPE NCC member: only registration services - Full RIPE NCC member: registration services + additional services Maintaining this "double membership" approach will cost some money for administrative tasks that will require consideration and cost/benefit analysis before moving further but I think that it is worth studying it. 4) Installing a fallback decision making procedure in addition to consensus for RIPE NCC WG: Consensus is the best decision making procedure and should be the preferred one in this new WG as much as it is the only one in the other WGs of RIPE. Having said that and considering that the decisions taken in this WG will probably have direct financial implications for the members, it is very likely that consensus is never achieved as the points of view differ. I think it is necessary to set up a fallback decision making procedure when consensus is not achieved in order to make progress. Voting rules as those applicable in the AGM may be considered. I would like to get these ideas debated in the next RIPE meeting. Regrettably I would not be able to be in Amsterdam as the RIPE meeting overlaps with another one that I have to attend in ETSI, but if the chairman of the NCC Services WG and/or the chairman of the AGM are so kind to input these ideas into the debates, I would be grateful. By the way, I still have some problems identifying where to accomodate these issues, whether in the NCC Services WG (for the services) or in the AGM (for the associated impact on budget and fees) as services and budget are always linked. Finally I have a question to make. Is this email list (ncc-services-wg) only available for RIPE NCC members? I guess so but I am not sure. Please confirm. Kind regards, Azucena ___________________________________________________________________________ Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario y puede contener información privilegiada o confidencial. Si no es vd. el destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la utilización, divulgación y/o copia sin autorización está prohibida en virtud de la legislación vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma vía y proceda a su destrucción. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain information that is CONFIDENTIAL and protected by professional privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copy or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited by law. 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Incident Response Service (IRS) [was: Unneeded RIPE tasks]
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 28 Aug '03

28 Aug '03

>To: ncc-services-wg(a)ripe.net >From: Hank Nussbacher <hank(a)att.net.il> >Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Unneeded RIPE tasks >Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:37:57 +0200 > >http://www.ripe.net/ripe/draft-documents/ap2004.html > >Section 5: >"Incident Response Service (IRS) >Procedures will be set up to quickly provide RIPE NCC members, the Internet >community and the general public with authoritative data about unusual >events on the Internet, such as DDoS on the RIPE NCC." Well, according to this text artefact, tihs can be many different things. From - putting a headline to an activity which every responsible organisation should undertake (to have a security role and to reasonably interact with other instances of such roles), to - trying to do things which others are doing already. Questions: 1) can we have a more elaborate description from the NCC of what activities are expected to be performed under this headline? 2) is there any WG which could be polled or which has "adopted" this activity for definition and development (or is expected to do so)? Answers to these Qs would make it much easier for me to be in favor or against :-) Wilfried.

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Updated agenda
by Kurt Erik Lindqvist 26 Aug '03

26 Aug '03

Slot 1, Tuesday 2/9 14.00-15.30 ********************************** 1. NCC Services WG charter (Kurtis) 2. RIPE NCC Services Direction - Service levels and activities 2004 3. RIPE NCC Information Services 4. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session Slot 2, Thursday 4/9 11.00-12.30 *********************************** 5. Presentation on X.509 and certificates (Dirk-Willem van Gulik) - Discussions around the X.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC and what other RIRs have done. 6. DNS Services - Modification Plans 7. Proposals from the community 8. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session

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Proposed agenda
by Kurt Erik Lindqvist 25 Aug '03

25 Aug '03

I am sorry for sending this out so late. Agenda for the NCC-Services-WG looks as follow though: Slot 1, Tuesday 2/9 14.00-15.30 ********************************** 1. Presenation from the RIPE NCC General NCC Service update Update from the Training Services Update on Database Services Update on Registration Services Update on New Projects 2. NCC Services WG charter (Kurtis) Slot 2, Thursday 4/9 11.00-12.30 *********************************** 3. Presentation on X.509 and certificates (Dirk-Willem van Gulik) - Discussions around the X.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC and what other RIRs have done. 4. (Main) Discussion & input time / Open Mike session (Kurtis) 5. Proposals from the community (Kurtis) Best regards, - kurtis -

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Re: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE tasks
by Bovio＠aol.com 25 Aug '03

25 Aug '03

In a message dated 22/08/03 18:44:28 W. Europe Daylight Time, woeber(a)cc.univie.ac.at writes: I am working from the assumption that the bigger community (RIPE - which includes the rep.s of the Members!) develops and agrees to the activity plan, the NCC Members approve and agree to paid the bills, and the managing director is expected to make it happen, with whatever it takes. Operationally, I always saw the Board as a "background" group, which focuses on keeping the safety belts in good working condition, and to take care of formal responsibilities of the Association, as well as providing guidance to the MD. At the time when I was on the Board, we were very reluctant to interfere with the day-to-day management of the NCC. As this is a memory of the past, things might have changed. Probably something the Board should comment on. Wilfried, A quite good summary, and yes, this is still the case: the board does not interfere with the day to day management of the NCC. Daniele

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Request Forms: updated and available on LIR Portal
by Dominic Spratley 25 Aug '03

25 Aug '03

Dear Colleagues, The RIPE NCC is pleased to announce the release of new request forms for IPv4, IPv6 and AS requests. To make the request process easier, requests can be completed and submitted directly from the Tools section of the LIR Portal. This also provides real-time syntax checking and help. https://lirportal.ripe.net/ Text versions of the new forms and their supporting notes (with examples of completed requests) are available for download from the Document Store found at: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/internet-registries.html#request The new forms can be used immediately. The old forms can still be submitted during the three month transition period ending on 19 November, 2003. If you have any questions on the new forms, please contact <lir-help(a)ripe.net>. Suggestions for improvements to the new forms on the LIR Portal are welcome at <lirportal-feedback(a)ripe.net>. Improved and new functionality is planned for future versions. Kind regards, Dominic Spratley Registration Services Manager RIPE NCC

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Re: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE tasks
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 22 Aug '03

22 Aug '03

Kurtis, >To some extend this worries me a bit tough. We are actually taking >power away from the board members that are actually elected to >represent us. this is an interesting line of thought! I am working from the assumption that the bigger community (RIPE - which includes the rep.s of the Members!) develops and agrees to the activity plan, the NCC Members approve and agree to paid the bills, and the managing director is expected to make it happen, with whatever it takes. Operationally, I always saw the Board as a "background" group, which focuses on keeping the safety belts in good working condition, and to take care of formal responsibilities of the Association, as well as providing guidance to the MD. At the time when I was on the Board, we were very reluctant to interfere with the day-to-day management of the NCC. As this is a memory of the past, things might have changed. Probably something the Board should comment on. This would still be "representing us", but it might be slightly differnt from what you read into "represent us". It might indicate that you expect the Board to interfere on a more regular basis with day-to-day management? Otoh, we might still be completely in synch! >At the same time, with the numbers of attendants that >Axel posted, I am still worried over the lack of interest from the >community... Well, even a decision for a country to join the EU - or not - has problems to attract the interest of >50% of the electorate. And, the cost of attending an AGM in person, or to do it via remote participation (keeping in touch with meetings, minutes, discussions, manpower-wise throughout the whole year...) might be just as costly as the annual membership fee (or at least as the percentage of that which might get cut off, if you object to some issues)? >- kurtis - For me _one_ major (but maybe not _the_ only) problem is feature creep _in the address distribution policy_, and it's implementation by the NCC. Some of you might recall my comments about the cost of micro-management of /29s, resource reclamation discussions, and the like... Btw, I am glad that we (again just a small minority! And it would just cost a bag of recycled electrons for an email ;-0) have started to actually discuss things! Cheers, Wilfried.

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Re: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE tasks
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 22 Aug '03

22 Aug '03

>I think a more often KPMG like survey is more of value than forcing the >RIPE NCC management and staff live under quarterly stability. . putting the NCC into instability mode is going to hurt all of us eventually (but may be beneficial for a small minority for whatever reason) . may _I_ then, in the interest of preventing waste of _MY_ LIR's money, voice a strong objection against _that_ waste of money _and_ human resources at the NCC!? >That is >how large listed companies operates. I think the NCC have a bit to >before being there... Yes, and we all have seen the results for the well-being of quite a few companies in quite a few sectors of teh industry ;-) >- kurtis - Wilfried.

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Re: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE tasks
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 22 Aug '03

22 Aug '03

>I don't to objections preceding the discussions of the budget >decisions, on the contrary - that is the idea with this WG. This is not only the idea with _one_ WG, this is a general concept which we (many chairs) tried to put to work for a while throuighout the _differnt_ WGs. I have to admit that _I_ have ceased eventually to put it onto my WGs agenda again and again, because I usually saw a few heads nodding approval when an activity (or it's continuation) was proposed, and no dissent. Maybe we should put it again onto our agenda(s) as a standing item... >However, >the decision needs to be taken by the NCC membership alone, and not in >a public forum. The public forum is there to work on general consensus, and to gather up all the input from the community at large. The final decision - which usually is to simply agree on the proposed workplan AND TO FOOT THE BILL - rests with the LIRs who are going to see the invoices coming. >This is the AGM. Exactly. >Best regards, > >- kurtis - And I am still pretty convinced that this is a good structure and the proper way to do it! Wilfried. (for at.aconet's EUR, and the DB-WG)

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Re: [ncc-services-wg] Unneeded RIPE tasks
by Hank Nussbacher 22 Aug '03

22 Aug '03

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/draft-documents/ap2004.html Section 5: "Incident Response Service (IRS) Procedures will be set up to quickly provide RIPE NCC members, the Internet community and the general public with authoritative data about unusual events on the Internet, such as DDoS on the RIPE NCC." Yet another unwanted and unneeded service that is handled quite well by many other organizations whether they be FIRST or nsp-sec or INOC-dba or Terena's CSIRT: http://www.first.org/ https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/nsp-security http://www.pch.net/inoc-dba/ http://www.terena.nl/tech/task-forces/tf-csirt/ No e-voting. No informal poll of what services are needed. RIPE NCC just keeps rolling along. Based on: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/draft-documents/budget2004-aoa97.html 2004 2003 2002 Total Expenses 10,263 9,811 10,442 I see no major cost reductions. Poll any of the 3500 LIR members and ask them what their budgets look like in 2004 as compared to 2002 and 2003. The problem is (and I know other NGOs in similar situations) that NGOs lose track of what is going on out in the real world and therefore feel that they have cut the budget if it is reduced 2-4%. The other problem is the apathy of the LIR members. 3500 LIR members and 95% are silent on the RIPE lists. Their employer doesn't pay them to sit on these lists. They pay them to get IPs and ASNs. A 10% reduction in membership fees - which would save perhaps 250-500Euro per year, is not worth fighting about, their employers didn't ask them to save them the money and such a small savings is noise to most budgets and not worth the manpower needed to argue and fight to get it changed. Looks like we are stuck with the status quo for a long time to come :-( -Hank

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