Legal compliance doubts
W dniu 19.03.2022 o 06:59, Taras Heichenko pisze:
Peace.
I am glad to see that RIPE NCC is legally clean. There are questions about humanism but of course this is not a cope of work of RIPE NCC.
In my opinion - it is not. RIPE NCC claims to operate in accordance with its own policies, that are created by the community. Meanwhile, we have a selective treatment of Members in terms of payments without: a) RIPE NCC resolutions b) without annexes to contracts with users. c) policy change Neither the Agreement nor the existing policies allow for discretionary behavior like "this user may not pay, and others must" without formal authorization. Of course Ukraine as an attacked country can and must be treated with any aid, including exemption from payments, when possible. But it has to be passed by a resolution of the RIPE NCC ordinance. The resolution may contain one sentence: "We do not issue invoices to Ukrainian members until the end of the war." Vote: who is in favor? All? The End. On the other end is Russia, as a country that has been subject to sanctions. It should not be of our interest, that they cannot pay. In result, recognizing that Russia users may not pay, because they have "banking difficulties" means, that no one from Russia will pay. Without any consequences. Although they probably can pay. Letting go at this point is very unfair to other Members. I also have a difficult in payment because the Euro exchange rate is very high. Does it interest someone? -- Stary Bezpiecznik
On the other end is Russia, as a country that has been subject to sanctions. It should not be of our interest, that they cannot pay. In result, recognizing that Russia users may not pay, because they have "banking difficulties" means, that no one from Russia will pay. Without any consequences. Although they probably can pay. Letting go at this point is very unfair to other Members.
Indeed. I don't know about law in Netherlands but other jurisdictions do have regulations that make all attempts too circumvent law (including sanctions) illegal. Not billing Russian LIRs might be viewed as an attempt to de facto circumvent sanctions. Difficulties of Ukrainian LIRs are definitely beyond their control but, frankly, difficulties facing Russian LIRs are not really beyond their control as they are not being shelled at the moment. The only reason I can see why to help them is... de facto political (to ensure Russians retain at least some access from their info bubble to the outside world) but since RIPE is supposed to be apolitical I can't really use that argument, can I?
I also have a difficult in payment because the Euro exchange rate is very high.
Tell me about it... It seems not switching to Euro was a bad decision. With crazy increase of energy costs and fuel costs in Poland running an ISP is becoming more and more expensive even without increase in Euro/PLN exchange rate. And we can't really increase our prices to customers or they'll scream murder.
Does it interest someone?
Please, don't use the word "interest"... I have mortgage... -- Pozdrawiam, Andrzej Ława tel. 500 206 268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o., 05-800 Pruszków, ul. Staszica 1 NIP 5342409456 / REGON 141663620/ KRS 0000319237
Do not forget that eventually voting might be disrupted. I do not know exact numbers of RIPE members per country, but I think Russia might have quite high numbers of them. Then we can have situation just like in United Nations, when Russia can simply make a veto. And now we clearly see - UN Was established after WW2 to not repeat history and attentuate all eventual conflicts at its first stages. Veto way make UN completly useless organization now. Any way to check how many members we have in RIPE per country , Pobierz aplikację BlueMail dla systemu Android W dniu 21 mar 2022, 12:51, o 12:51, użytkownik Stary Bezpiek <stary.bezpiecznik@gmail.com> napisał:
W dniu 19.03.2022 o 06:59, Taras Heichenko pisze:
Peace.
I am glad to see that RIPE NCC is legally clean. There are questions about humanism but of course this is not a cope of work of RIPE NCC.
In my opinion - it is not. RIPE NCC claims to operate in accordance with its own policies, that are created by the community.
Meanwhile, we have a selective treatment of Members in terms of payments without: a) RIPE NCC resolutions b) without annexes to contracts with users. c) policy change Neither the Agreement nor the existing policies allow for discretionary behavior like "this user may not pay, and others must" without formal authorization.
Of course Ukraine as an attacked country can and must be treated with any aid, including exemption from payments, when possible. But it has to be passed by a resolution of the RIPE NCC ordinance. The resolution may contain one sentence: "We do not issue invoices to Ukrainian members until the end of the war." Vote: who is in favor? All? The End.
On the other end is Russia, as a country that has been subject to sanctions. It should not be of our interest, that they cannot pay. In result, recognizing that Russia users may not pay, because they have "banking difficulties" means, that no one from Russia will pay. Without any consequences. Although they probably can pay. Letting go at this point is very unfair to other Members.
I also have a difficult in payment because the Euro exchange rate is very high. Does it interest someone?
-- Stary Bezpiecznik
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/piotr%40karwos.hk
Dear Piotr, RIPE as a community can solve this by voting on two positions: 1. Should RIPE NCC allow russian LIRs to postpone their payments? 2. Should RIPE NCC allow ukrainian LIRs to postpone their payments? Ukrainian and russian LIRs shall not vote in this poll. Let the community to decide. On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 12:43 PM Piotr Karwowski <piotr@karwos.hk> wrote:
Do not forget that eventually voting might be disrupted. I do not know exact numbers of RIPE members per country, but I think Russia might have quite high numbers of them. Then we can have situation just like in United Nations, when Russia can simply make a veto.
And now we clearly see - UN Was established after WW2 to not repeat history and attentuate all eventual conflicts at its first stages.
Veto way make UN completly useless organization now.
Any way to check how many members we have in RIPE per country ,
Pobierz aplikację BlueMail dla systemu Android W dniu 21 mar 2022, o 12:51, użytkownik Stary Bezpiek <stary.bezpiecznik@gmail.com> napisał:
W dniu 19.03.2022 o 06:59, Taras Heichenko pisze:
Peace.
I am glad to see that RIPE NCC is legally clean. There are questions about humanism but of course this is not a cope of work of RIPE NCC.
In my opinion - it is not. RIPE NCC claims to operate in accordance with its own policies, that are created by the community.
Meanwhile, we have a selective treatment of Members in terms of payments without: a) RIPE NCC resolutions b) without annexes to contracts with users. c) policy change Neither the Agreement nor the existing policies allow for discretionary behavior like "this user may not pay, and others must" without formal authorization.
Of course Ukraine as an attacked country can and must be treated with any aid, including exemption from payments, when possible. But it has to be passed by a resolution of the RIPE NCC ordinance. The resolution may contain one sentence: "We do not issue invoices to Ukrainian members until the end of the war." Vote: who is in favor? All? The End.
On the other end is Russia, as a country that has been subject to sanctions. It should not be of our interest, that they cannot pay. In result, recognizing that Russia users may not pay, because they have "banking difficulties" means, that no one from Russia will pay. Without any consequences. Although they probably can pay. Letting go at this point is very unfair to other Members.
I also have a difficult in payment because the Euro exchange rate is very high. Does it interest someone?
-- Stary Bezpiecznik
________________________________
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-- Sergey
I would feel very bad other way to discriminate any Group of members. I think the actual situation is pure patethic. I think we should proceed with voting with all LIR, but think about questions first. Do we have some table with stats - how many there are LIR per country in ripe domain ? Pobierz aplikację BlueMail dla systemu Android W dniu 23 mar 2022, 12:25, o 12:25, użytkownik Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> napisał:
Dear Piotr,
RIPE as a community can solve this by voting on two positions:
1. Should RIPE NCC allow russian LIRs to postpone their payments? 2. Should RIPE NCC allow ukrainian LIRs to postpone their payments?
Ukrainian and russian LIRs shall not vote in this poll. Let the community to decide.
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 12:43 PM Piotr Karwowski <piotr@karwos.hk> wrote:
Do not forget that eventually voting might be disrupted. I do not know exact numbers of RIPE members per country, but I think
Then we can have situation just like in United Nations, when Russia can simply make a veto.
And now we clearly see - UN Was established after WW2 to not repeat history and attentuate all eventual conflicts at its first stages.
Veto way make UN completly useless organization now.
Any way to check how many members we have in RIPE per country ,
Pobierz aplikację BlueMail dla systemu Android W dniu 21 mar 2022, o 12:51, użytkownik Stary Bezpiek <stary.bezpiecznik@gmail.com> napisał:
W dniu 19.03.2022 o 06:59, Taras Heichenko pisze:
Peace.
I am glad to see that RIPE NCC is legally clean. There are
questions about humanism but of course this is not a cope of work of RIPE NCC.
In my opinion - it is not. RIPE NCC claims to operate in accordance with its own policies, that
are
created by the community.
Meanwhile, we have a selective treatment of Members in terms of
without: a) RIPE NCC resolutions b) without annexes to contracts with users. c) policy change Neither the Agreement nor the existing policies allow for discretionary behavior like "this user may not pay, and others must" without
Russia might have quite high numbers of them. payments formal
authorization.
Of course Ukraine as an attacked country can and must be treated with any aid, including exemption from payments, when possible. But it has to be passed by a resolution of the RIPE NCC ordinance. The resolution may contain one sentence: "We do not issue invoices to Ukrainian members until the end of the war." Vote: who is in favor? All? The End.
On the other end is Russia, as a country that has been subject to sanctions. It should not be of our interest, that they cannot pay. In result, recognizing that Russia users may not pay, because they have "banking difficulties" means, that no one from Russia will pay. Without any consequences. Although they probably can pay. Letting go at this point is very unfair to other Members.
I also have a difficult in payment because the Euro exchange rate is very high. Does it interest someone?
-- Stary Bezpiecznik
________________________________
members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/piotr%40karwos.hk
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-- Sergey
Dear Piotr, I agree, positive, not the same democratic way. But exclude interest conflict. Anyway, I do not insist. About you question - https://stat.ripe.net/special/country-report/ On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 6:30 PM Piotr Karwowski <piotr@karwos.hk> wrote:
I would feel very bad other way to discriminate any Group of members. I think the actual situation is pure patethic.
I think we should proceed with voting with all LIR, but think about questions first.
Do we have some table with stats - how many there are LIR per country in ripe domain ?
Pobierz aplikację BlueMail dla systemu Android W dniu 23 mar 2022, o 12:25, użytkownik Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> napisał:
Dear Piotr,
RIPE as a community can solve this by voting on two positions:
1. Should RIPE NCC allow russian LIRs to postpone their payments? 2. Should RIPE NCC allow ukrainian LIRs to postpone their payments?
Ukrainian and russian LIRs shall not vote in this poll. Let the community to decide.
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 12:43 PM Piotr Karwowski <piotr@karwos.hk> wrote:
Do not forget that eventually voting might be disrupted. I do not know exact numbers of RIPE members per country, but I think Russia might have quite high numbers of them. Then we can have situation just like in United Nations, when Russia can simply make a veto.
And now we clearly see - UN Was established after WW2 to not repeat history and attentuate all eventual conflicts at its first stages.
Veto way make UN completly useless organization now.
Any way to check how many members we have in RIPE per country ,
Pobierz aplikację BlueMail dla systemu Android W dniu 21 mar 2022, o 12:51, użytkownik Stary Bezpiek <stary.bezpiecznik@gmail.com> napisał:
W dniu 19.03.2022 o 06:59, Taras Heichenko pisze:
Peace.
I am glad to see that RIPE NCC is legally clean. There are questions about humanism but of course this is not a cope of work of RIPE NCC.
In my opinion - it is not. RIPE NCC claims to operate in accordance with its own policies, that are created by the community.
Meanwhile, we have a selective treatment of Members in terms of payments without: a) RIPE NCC resolutions b) without annexes to contracts with users. c) policy change Neither the Agreement nor the existing policies allow for discretionary behavior like "this user may not pay, and others must" without formal authorization.
Of course Ukraine as an attacked country can and must be treated with any aid, including exemption from payments, when possible. But it has to be passed by a resolution of the RIPE NCC ordinance. The resolution may contain one sentence: "We do not issue invoices to Ukrainian members until the end of the war." Vote: who is in favor? All? The End.
On the other end is Russia, as a country that has been subject to sanctions. It should not be of our interest, that they cannot pay. In result, recognizing that Russia users may not pay, because they have "banking difficulties" means, that no one from Russia will pay. Without any consequences. Although they probably can pay. Letting go at this point is very unfair to other Members.
I also have a difficult in payment because the Euro exchange rate is very high. Does it interest someone?
-- Stary Bezpiecznik
________________________________
members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/piotr%40karwos.hk
________________________________
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-- Sergey
Yeah, if You mean about postponing payment questions, which directly affects voting-members, right, they should not vote and this should not spread Any nondemocratic clues. I would agree, we need 2% of members agreement to add questions ? Do ripe voting procedure even having a way to exclude partial Group of members ? This would be even more interesting to make a legal-bound voting procedure. Else we need 100% members voting to change voting procedure itself to include excluding-voting procedure. Havent studied RIPE procedures so deeply yet, but in coming days i think this will be needed. Either way, it is all so pathetic. Would rather this war would never happen. And what I worry most, is not that war started, but I worry most how it will end in the all aspects. Our economies Was already hit by covid, and we will feel second, even stronger wave of economy crisis. In just 30 days we welcomed 2 millions of refugees here in Poland. And inflation Was already challenging. Any other questions should be included in next voting? What about response to Russian own RIR forming ? Should ripe answer accordingly? I think yes. Pobierz aplikację BlueMail dla systemu Android W dniu 23 mar 2022, 23:58, o 23:58, użytkownik Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> napisał:
Dear Piotr,
I agree, positive, not the same democratic way. But exclude interest conflict. Anyway, I do not insist.
About you question - https://stat.ripe.net/special/country-report/
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 6:30 PM Piotr Karwowski <piotr@karwos.hk> wrote:
I would feel very bad other way to discriminate any Group of members. I think the actual situation is pure patethic.
I think we should proceed with voting with all LIR, but think about
questions first.
Do we have some table with stats - how many there are LIR per country
in ripe domain ?
Pobierz aplikację BlueMail dla systemu Android W dniu 23 mar 2022, o 12:25, użytkownik Serg Galat
Dear Piotr,
RIPE as a community can solve this by voting on two positions:
1. Should RIPE NCC allow russian LIRs to postpone their payments? 2. Should RIPE NCC allow ukrainian LIRs to postpone their payments?
Ukrainian and russian LIRs shall not vote in this poll. Let the community to decide.
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 12:43 PM Piotr Karwowski <piotr@karwos.hk>
wrote:
Do not forget that eventually voting might be disrupted. I do not know exact numbers of RIPE members per country, but I
Then we can have situation just like in United Nations, when Russia can simply make a veto.
And now we clearly see - UN Was established after WW2 to not repeat history and attentuate all eventual conflicts at its first stages.
Veto way make UN completly useless organization now.
Any way to check how many members we have in RIPE per country ,
Pobierz aplikację BlueMail dla systemu Android W dniu 21 mar 2022, o 12:51, użytkownik Stary Bezpiek <stary.bezpiecznik@gmail.com> napisał:
W dniu 19.03.2022 o 06:59, Taras Heichenko pisze:
Peace.
I am glad to see that RIPE NCC is legally clean. There are
questions about humanism but of course this is not a cope of work of RIPE NCC.
In my opinion - it is not. RIPE NCC claims to operate in accordance with its own policies,
created by the community.
Meanwhile, we have a selective treatment of Members in terms of
without: a) RIPE NCC resolutions b) without annexes to contracts with users. c) policy change Neither the Agreement nor the existing policies allow for discretionary behavior like "this user may not pay, and others must" without
authorization.
Of course Ukraine as an attacked country can and must be treated with any aid, including exemption from payments, when possible. But it has to be passed by a resolution of the RIPE NCC ordinance. The resolution may contain one sentence: "We do not issue invoices to Ukrainian members until the end of the war." Vote: who is in favor? All? The End.
On the other end is Russia, as a country that has been subject to sanctions. It should not be of our interest, that they cannot
result, recognizing that Russia users may not pay, because they have "banking difficulties" means, that no one from Russia will pay. Without any consequences. Although they probably can pay. Letting go at
<greysticky@gmail.com> napisał: think Russia might have quite high numbers of them. that are payments formal pay. In this
point is very unfair to other Members.
I also have a difficult in payment because the Euro exchange rate is very high. Does it interest someone?
-- Stary Bezpiecznik
________________________________
members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/piotr%40karwos.hk
________________________________
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-- Sergey
I don’t see how a member organisation can run a vote (or poll) that excludes members from voting based on their location or nationality. While I understand “why” the suggestion was made I can’t see how that would work legally. -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday, 23 March 2022 at 16:30 To: Piotr Karwowski <piotr@karwos.hk> Cc: Cynthia Revström via members-discuss <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Legal compliance doubts [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources. Dear Piotr, RIPE as a community can solve this by voting on two positions: 1. Should RIPE NCC allow russian LIRs to postpone their payments? 2. Should RIPE NCC allow ukrainian LIRs to postpone their payments? Ukrainian and russian LIRs shall not vote in this poll. Let the community to decide. On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 12:43 PM Piotr Karwowski <piotr@karwos.hk> wrote:
Do not forget that eventually voting might be disrupted. I do not know exact numbers of RIPE members per country, but I think Russia might have quite high numbers of them. Then we can have situation just like in United Nations, when Russia can simply make a veto.
And now we clearly see - UN Was established after WW2 to not repeat history and attentuate all eventual conflicts at its first stages.
Veto way make UN completly useless organization now.
Any way to check how many members we have in RIPE per country ,
Pobierz aplikację BlueMail dla systemu Android W dniu 21 mar 2022, o 12:51, użytkownik Stary Bezpiek <stary.bezpiecznik@gmail.com> napisał:
W dniu 19.03.2022 o 06:59, Taras Heichenko pisze:
Peace.
I am glad to see that RIPE NCC is legally clean. There are questions about humanism but of course this is not a cope of work of RIPE NCC.
In my opinion - it is not. RIPE NCC claims to operate in accordance with its own policies, that are created by the community.
Meanwhile, we have a selective treatment of Members in terms of payments without: a) RIPE NCC resolutions b) without annexes to contracts with users. c) policy change Neither the Agreement nor the existing policies allow for discretionary behavior like "this user may not pay, and others must" without formal authorization.
Of course Ukraine as an attacked country can and must be treated with any aid, including exemption from payments, when possible. But it has to be passed by a resolution of the RIPE NCC ordinance. The resolution may contain one sentence: "We do not issue invoices to Ukrainian members until the end of the war." Vote: who is in favor? All? The End.
On the other end is Russia, as a country that has been subject to sanctions. It should not be of our interest, that they cannot pay. In result, recognizing that Russia users may not pay, because they have "banking difficulties" means, that no one from Russia will pay. Without any consequences. Although they probably can pay. Letting go at this point is very unfair to other Members.
I also have a difficult in payment because the Euro exchange rate is very high. Does it interest someone?
-- Stary Bezpiecznik
________________________________
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-- Sergey _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/michele%40blacknight....
Dear Stary, I absolutely agree with you, colleague. All your suggestions and questions are more than relevant. Many Ukrainian LIRs have paid or are trying to pay (eventually will pay) invoices despite the martial law and the delay provided by RIPE NCC. On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 1:52 PM Stary Bezpiek <stary.bezpiecznik@gmail.com> wrote:
W dniu 19.03.2022 o 06:59, Taras Heichenko pisze:
Peace.
I am glad to see that RIPE NCC is legally clean. There are questions about humanism but of course this is not a cope of work of RIPE NCC.
In my opinion - it is not. RIPE NCC claims to operate in accordance with its own policies, that are created by the community.
Meanwhile, we have a selective treatment of Members in terms of payments without: a) RIPE NCC resolutions b) without annexes to contracts with users. c) policy change Neither the Agreement nor the existing policies allow for discretionary behavior like "this user may not pay, and others must" without formal authorization.
Of course Ukraine as an attacked country can and must be treated with any aid, including exemption from payments, when possible. But it has to be passed by a resolution of the RIPE NCC ordinance. The resolution may contain one sentence: "We do not issue invoices to Ukrainian members until the end of the war." Vote: who is in favor? All? The End.
On the other end is Russia, as a country that has been subject to sanctions. It should not be of our interest, that they cannot pay. In result, recognizing that Russia users may not pay, because they have "banking difficulties" means, that no one from Russia will pay. Without any consequences. Although they probably can pay. Letting go at this point is very unfair to other Members.
I also have a difficult in payment because the Euro exchange rate is very high. Does it interest someone?
-- Stary Bezpiecznik
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/greysticky%40gmail.co...
-- Sergey
Dear Stary, all, One point that we want to make clear is that the RIPE NCC has not waived any membership fees. We decided to postpone invoicing sanctioned members and members in Iran and Syria due to concerns our bank has with receiving payments from these entities and countries. We have invoiced members in Ukraine and Russia but decided not to terminate their Standard Service Agreement if there are external factors that prevent them from making payment. However, all of these members have the same payment obligations as any other member will have to pay the full amount. These are operational decisions with regards to the payment obligation as defined in the Standard Service Agreement. According to Article 12.2 of the Articles of Association, all operational decisions with respect to the Standard Service Agreement are delegated to the Management Team (i.e. the Managing Director) of the RIPE NCC, and as such it does not require a GM resolution or a policy change. Having said that, it is possible for a group of members to propose a resolution for the next GM meeting as defined in Article 15.6 of the Articles of Association: “15.6 On the application In Writing of a group of Members who are jointly entitled to cast at least two percent (2%) of the total number of possible votes, other subjects will be added to the agenda. Such an application, accompanied by the verbatim text of the resolutions proposed by the said Members, shall have to be sent to the Executive Board at least two weeks before the Meeting.” Please note that according to Article 18.1 of the Articles of Association, such a proposed resolution can be adopted by an absolute majority of the votes cast at the GM, i.e. greater than fifty percent (50%) of the votes cast. Thank you. Kind regards, Athina Fragkouli Chief Legal Officer RIPE NCC
On 21 Mar 2022, at 09:16, Stary Bezpiek <stary.bezpiecznik@gmail.com> wrote:
W dniu 19.03.2022 o 06:59, Taras Heichenko pisze:
Peace.
I am glad to see that RIPE NCC is legally clean. There are questions about humanism but of course this is not a cope of work of RIPE NCC.
In my opinion - it is not. RIPE NCC claims to operate in accordance with its own policies, that are created by the community.
Meanwhile, we have a selective treatment of Members in terms of payments without: a) RIPE NCC resolutions b) without annexes to contracts with users. c) policy change Neither the Agreement nor the existing policies allow for discretionary behavior like "this user may not pay, and others must" without formal authorization.
Of course Ukraine as an attacked country can and must be treated with any aid, including exemption from payments, when possible. But it has to be passed by a resolution of the RIPE NCC ordinance. The resolution may contain one sentence: "We do not issue invoices to Ukrainian members until the end of the war." Vote: who is in favor? All? The End.
On the other end is Russia, as a country that has been subject to sanctions. It should not be of our interest, that they cannot pay. In result, recognizing that Russia users may not pay, because they have "banking difficulties" means, that no one from Russia will pay. Without any consequences. Although they probably can pay. Letting go at this point is very unfair to other Members.
I also have a difficult in payment because the Euro exchange rate is very high. Does it interest someone?
-- Stary Bezpiecznik
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Dear Athina, All First of all: <quote of Athina> One point that we want to make clear is that the RIPE NCC has not waived any membership fees. </quote of Athina> Please do not distort reality - permission not to pay invoices without: a) consequences of termination of the contract b) without without specifying the final repayment date _is in fact a fee waiver_. Next: <quote of Articles of Association> 12.2 The Executive Board shall delegate to the Management Team all operational decisions with respect to the Standard Service Agreements. The Management Team shall be authorised to suspend a member if the member does not fulfil their obligations according to the Standard Service Agreement. </quote of Articles of Association> Athina - when You refer to this article, you are contradicting yourself. It says, that EB may suspend the participant who does not comply with the provisions of the SSA. There is not a single word in this article about exempting members from payment obligations. Resume: Issue invoices and simple allow some members not to pay, is the more dire (even stupid?) option possible, because: 1. causes unequal treatment of Members, and Article 12.2 above does not apply, 2. it causes a fiscal burden for the RIPE NCC - you must demonstrate income on which there will be no payment, 3. causes doubts about needing at all: RIPE policies, community, voting, etc. when in one sentence You are showing us, that the Management will do what it sees fit - without looking at the rest. Regards, -- Stary Bezpiecznik W dniu 23.03.2022 o 17:23, Athina Fragkouli pisze:
Dear Stary, all,
One point that we want to make clear is that the RIPE NCC has not waived any membership fees.
We decided to postpone invoicing sanctioned members and members in Iran and Syria due to concerns our bank has with receiving payments from these entities and countries. We have invoiced members in Ukraine and Russia but decided not to terminate their Standard Service Agreement if there are external factors that prevent them from making payment. However, all of these members have the same payment obligations as any other member will have to pay the full amount.
These are operational decisions with regards to the payment obligation as defined in the Standard Service Agreement. According to Article 12.2 of the Articles of Association, all operational decisions with respect to the Standard Service Agreement are delegated to the Management Team (i.e. the Managing Director) of the RIPE NCC, and as such it does not require a GM resolution or a policy change.
Having said that, it is possible for a group of members to propose a resolution for the next GM meeting as defined in Article 15.6 of the Articles of Association:
“15.6 On the application In Writing of a group of Members who are jointly entitled to cast at least two percent (2%) of the total number of possible votes, other subjects will be added to the agenda. Such an application, accompanied by the verbatim text of the resolutions proposed by the said Members, shall have to be sent to the Executive Board at least two weeks before the Meeting.”
Please note that according to Article 18.1 of the Articles of Association, such a proposed resolution can be adopted by an absolute majority of the votes cast at the GM, i.e. greater than fifty percent (50%) of the votes cast.
Thank you.
Kind regards,
Athina Fragkouli Chief Legal Officer RIPE NCC
On 21 Mar 2022, at 09:16, Stary Bezpiek <stary.bezpiecznik@gmail.com> wrote:
W dniu 19.03.2022 o 06:59, Taras Heichenko pisze:
Peace.
I am glad to see that RIPE NCC is legally clean. There are questions about humanism but of course this is not a cope of work of RIPE NCC. In my opinion - it is not. RIPE NCC claims to operate in accordance with its own policies, that are created by the community.
Meanwhile, we have a selective treatment of Members in terms of payments without: a) RIPE NCC resolutions b) without annexes to contracts with users. c) policy change Neither the Agreement nor the existing policies allow for discretionary behavior like "this user may not pay, and others must" without formal authorization.
Of course Ukraine as an attacked country can and must be treated with any aid, including exemption from payments, when possible. But it has to be passed by a resolution of the RIPE NCC ordinance. The resolution may contain one sentence: "We do not issue invoices to Ukrainian members until the end of the war." Vote: who is in favor? All? The End.
On the other end is Russia, as a country that has been subject to sanctions. It should not be of our interest, that they cannot pay. In result, recognizing that Russia users may not pay, because they have "banking difficulties" means, that no one from Russia will pay. Without any consequences. Although they probably can pay. Letting go at this point is very unfair to other Members.
I also have a difficult in payment because the Euro exchange rate is very high. Does it interest someone?
-- Stary Bezpiecznik
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Hi, On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 09:54:08AM +0200, Stary Bezpiek wrote:
First of all: <quote of Athina>
One point that we want to make clear is that the RIPE NCC has not waived any membership fees. </quote of Athina>
Please do not distort reality - permission not to pay invoices without: a) consequences of termination of the contract b) without without specifying the final repayment date
_is in fact a fee waiver_.
I think it is well understood that all fees are expected to be paid, when the situation normalizes itself. Yes, some LIRs might be able to get service for one or two years without paying, if they *then* refuse to pay and get closed down - but this is not the general expectation from a member of an association. An actual waiver for ukrainian LIRs has been brought to the discussion but this is something the AGM would need to vote on. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
participants (7)
-
Andrzej Ława -
Athina Fragkouli -
Gert Doering -
Michele Neylon - Blacknight -
Piotr Karwowski -
Serg Galat -
Stary Bezpiek