Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
Hello RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer listing service. Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss Hello, folks! That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years. But actually there really big injustice exists here! I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used. But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market. And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a long time. Than't really weird, isn't it? On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro> > wrote: Hi all, This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about. On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense... On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: Hi, all. I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before 2012, to the NCC pool. -- Kind regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO 7 926 6908729 14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley : Dear colleagues, The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts. There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run against the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open additional LIR accounts. The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool. ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss the following points: 1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented? 2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention? Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on RIPE Labs: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-lir... <https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-lir-accounts?pk_campaign=members&pk_kwd=list-ncc> &pk_kwd=list-ncc The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss mailing list . The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome of that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016. Best regards, Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
Please remove this address in your own words please לשרותך עמית כהן מנכ"ל [x2one_logo] נייד : 054-7444444 טלפון: 077-2285300 פקס : 077-2285994 מייל : amit.c@x2one.com<mailto:amit.c@x2one.com> אתר : www.x2one.com<http://www.x2one.com> כתובת: רחוב המלאכה 1,פארק תעשיות צפוני לוד, 7152001 From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of marco@naefmarco.ch Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2016 4:53 PM To: 'Pavel Odintsov'; 'Radu Brebu' Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss Hello RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer listing service. Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss Hello, folks! That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years. But actually there really big injustice exists here! I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used. But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market. And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a long time. Than't really weird, isn't it? On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>> wrote: Hi all, This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about. On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense... On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: Hi, all. I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before 2012, to the NCC pool. -- Kind regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO 7 926 6908729 14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley : Dear colleagues, The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts. There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run against the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open additional LIR accounts. The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool. ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss the following points: 1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented? 2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention? Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on RIPE Labs: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-lir-accounts?pk_campaign=members&pk_kwd=list-ncc The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss mailing list . The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome of that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016. Best regards, Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer listing service. Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Providers who need them, means, in my opinion, providers who have a wide IPv6 deployment. Tough job to appreciate the IPv6 deployement status of a LIR, but I really think this must be a requirement for getting more IPv4 easily.
You want IPv4 ? Deploy IPv6, then we will talk. You do not care about IPv6 ? No v4 for you.
Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
Hello, folks!
That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years.
But actually there really big injustice exists here!
I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used.
But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market.
And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a long time.
Than't really weird, isn't it?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>> wrote: Hi all,
This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about.
On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense...
On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: Hi, all.
I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before 2012, to the NCC pool.
-- Kind regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO 7 926 6908729
14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley :
Dear colleagues,
The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts.
There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run against the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open additional LIR accounts.
The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool.
ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss the following points:
1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented?
2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention?
Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on RIPE Labs: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-lir-accounts?pk_campaign=members&pk_kwd=list-ncc
The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss mailing list .
The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome of that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016.
Best regards,
Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Jack Kwaoo noc More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/
I have few words about IPv6. I'm real fan of IPv6. But actually almost all companies who want last /22 subnet just get IPv6 and do not use it really. From my point of view, you should check real network usage by analyzing BGP routing table. In other words each LIR should: 1) Get new IPv6 subet from RIPE 2) Announce it and offer IPv6 address for checks 3) Get last /22 IPv4 subnet Almost all "IPv6" subnets received for last months haven't used really. That's bad. On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jack <noc@kwaoo.net> wrote:
RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer listing service. Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Providers who need them, means, in my opinion, providers who have a wide IPv6 deployment. Tough job to appreciate the IPv6 deployement status of a LIR, but I really think this must be a requirement for getting more IPv4 easily.
You want IPv4 ? Deploy IPv6, then we will talk. You do not care about IPv6 ? No v4 for you.
Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
Hello, folks!
That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years.
But actually there really big injustice exists here!
I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used.
But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market.
And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a long time.
Than't really weird, isn't it?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto: dial@dialcube.ro>> wrote: Hi all,
This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to
Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about.
On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and
other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense...
On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: Hi, all.
I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before 2012, to the NCC pool.
-- Kind regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO 7 926 6908729
14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley :
Dear colleagues,
The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts.
There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run
against
the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open
additional
LIR accounts.
The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool.
ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss the following points:
1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented?
2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention?
Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on RIPE Labs:
The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss mailing list .
The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome of that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016.
Best regards,
Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the
general page:
https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Jack Kwaoo noc
More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
Why not just to set a yearly fee for all IPs? for example 0,01$ / IP per Month or so. Making that ips will really unused will get back to ripe soon. Ripe could give them free again but all of us should pay a little monthly for have them. El 11/02/16 a las 16:05, Pavel Odintsov escribió:
I have few words about IPv6. I'm real fan of IPv6.
But actually almost all companies who want last /22 subnet just get IPv6 and do not use it really. From my point of view, you should check real network usage by analyzing BGP routing table.
In other words each LIR should: 1) Get new IPv6 subet from RIPE 2) Announce it and offer IPv6 address for checks 3) Get last /22 IPv4 subnet
Almost all "IPv6" subnets received for last months haven't used really. That's bad.
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jack <noc@kwaoo.net <mailto:noc@kwaoo.net>> wrote:
> RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer listing service. > Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Providers who need them, means, in my opinion, providers who have a wide IPv6 deployment. Tough job to appreciate the IPv6 deployement status of a LIR, but I really think this must be a requirement for getting more IPv4 easily.
You want IPv4 ? Deploy IPv6, then we will talk. You do not care about IPv6 ? No v4 for you.
> > > Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>] Im Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 > An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro><mailto:dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>>> > Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net><mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> > Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss > > Hello, folks! > > That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years. > > But actually there really big injustice exists here! > > I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used. > > But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market. > > And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a long time. > > Than't really weird, isn't it? > > On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro><mailto:dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>>> wrote: > Hi all, > > This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about. > > > On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: > I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense... > > > > On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: > Hi, all. > > I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before > 2012, to the NCC pool. > > -- > Kind regards, > Aleksey Bulgakov > FastTelecom, CEO > 7 926 6908729 > > 14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley : > > Dear colleagues, > > The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to > discuss > the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts. > > There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November > 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, > each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run against > the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board > decided to > temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open additional > LIR accounts. > > The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 > policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has > allocated > more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the > pool. > > ACTION REQUIRED: > The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss > the following points: > > 1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a > problem > that must be prevented? > > 2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action > should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention? > > Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this > article on > RIPE Labs: > https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-lir-accounts?pk_campaign=members&pk_kwd=list-ncc > > The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss > mailing list . > > The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next > Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome of > that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to > vote on > at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016. > > Best regards, > > Nigel Titley > RIPE NCC Executive Board > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > -- > Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov > CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. >
-- Jack Kwaoo noc
More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Electrónica Martínez *Nombre:* Raul Pizarro Vazquez *Cargo:* Responsable Técnico *Departamento:* Centro de Observacion de Red *Email:* intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com *Oficina:* 968 165 000 *Averías:* 676 966 000 *Página web:* www.electronicamartinez.es <http://www.electronicamartinez.es> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/company/10271615> Twitter <https://twitter.com/EMartinez_SL> Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/electronicamartinez0> Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/b/114382878353884084293/114382878353884084293> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I have yet another advice. I like idea to pay some taxes for each transferred subnet. If you move /16 you should "pay" /20 to public RIPE's pool. What about this? On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Raul Pizarro Vazquez < intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com> wrote:
Why not just to set a yearly fee for all IPs? for example 0,01$ / IP per Month or so. Making that ips will really unused will get back to ripe soon. Ripe could give them free again but all of us should pay a little monthly for have them.
El 11/02/16 a las 16:05, Pavel Odintsov escribió:
I have few words about IPv6. I'm real fan of IPv6.
But actually almost all companies who want last /22 subnet just get IPv6 and do not use it really. From my point of view, you should check real network usage by analyzing BGP routing table.
In other words each LIR should: 1) Get new IPv6 subet from RIPE 2) Announce it and offer IPv6 address for checks 3) Get last /22 IPv4 subnet
Almost all "IPv6" subnets received for last months haven't used really. That's bad.
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jack <noc@kwaoo.net> wrote:
RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer listing service. Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Providers who need them, means, in my opinion, providers who have a wide IPv6 deployment. Tough job to appreciate the IPv6 deployement status of a LIR, but I really think this must be a requirement for getting more IPv4 easily.
You want IPv4 ? Deploy IPv6, then we will talk. You do not care about IPv6 ? No v4 for you.
Von: members-discuss [mailto: <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto: <dial@dialcube.ro> dial@dialcube.ro>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto: <members-discuss@ripe.net> members-discuss@ripe.net> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
Hello, folks!
That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years.
But actually there really big injustice exists here!
I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used.
But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market.
And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a long time.
Than't really weird, isn't it?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto: <dial@dialcube.ro>dial@dialcube.ro>> wrote: Hi all,
This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to
members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about.
On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and
other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense...
On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: Hi, all.
I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before 2012, to the NCC pool.
-- Kind regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO 7 926 6908729
14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley :
Dear colleagues,
The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts.
There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR
accounts,
each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run
against
the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open
additional
LIR accounts.
The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool.
ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and
discuss
the following points:
1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented?
2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention?
Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on RIPE Labs:
The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members
Discuss
mailing list .
The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome
of
that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016.
Best regards,
Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the
general page:
https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Jack Kwaoo noc
More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- ------------------------------ [image: Electrónica Martínez]
*Nombre:* Raul Pizarro Vazquez *Cargo:* Responsable Técnico *Departamento:* Centro de Observacion de Red *Email:* intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com *Oficina:* 968 165 000 *Averías:* 676 966 000 *Página web:* <http://www.electronicamartinez.es> www.electronicamartinez.es ------------------------------ [image: LinkedIn] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/10271615> [image: Twitter] <https://twitter.com/EMartinez_SL> [image: Facebook] <https://www.facebook.com/electronicamartinez0> [image: Google Plus] <https://plus.google.com/b/114382878353884084293/114382878353884084293> ------------------------------
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
Hi Pavel, Then no one transfers, many LIRs have large unused pools and you can't even buy them on the market. Even worse situation - tax is bad for economy. With Kind Regards, Dominik Nowacki Clouvider Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 08750969<tel:08750969>. Registered office: 88 Wood Street, London, United Kingdom, EC2V 7RS. Please note that Clouvider Limited may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and staff training. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the intended recipient. If you do not believe you are the intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify abuse@clouvider.net<mailto:abuse@clouvider.net> of this e-mail immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Clouvider Limited nor any of its employees therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. On 11 Feb 2016, at 15:37, Pavel Odintsov <odintsov@fastvps.ru<mailto:odintsov@fastvps.ru>> wrote: So I have yet another advice. I like idea to pay some taxes for each transferred subnet. If you move /16 you should "pay" /20 to public RIPE's pool. What about this? On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Raul Pizarro Vazquez <intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com<mailto:intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com>> wrote: Why not just to set a yearly fee for all IPs? for example 0,01$ / IP per Month or so. Making that ips will really unused will get back to ripe soon. Ripe could give them free again but all of us should pay a little monthly for have them. El 11/02/16 a las 16:05, Pavel Odintsov escribió: I have few words about IPv6. I'm real fan of IPv6. But actually almost all companies who want last /22 subnet just get IPv6 and do not use it really. From my point of view, you should check real network usage by analyzing BGP routing table. In other words each LIR should: 1) Get new IPv6 subet from RIPE 2) Announce it and offer IPv6 address for checks 3) Get last /22 IPv4 subnet Almost all "IPv6" subnets received for last months haven't used really. That's bad. On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jack <noc@kwaoo.net<mailto:noc@kwaoo.net>> wrote:
RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer listing service. Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Providers who need them, means, in my opinion, providers who have a wide IPv6 deployment. Tough job to appreciate the IPv6 deployement status of a LIR, but I really think this must be a requirement for getting more IPv4 easily.
You want IPv4 ? Deploy IPv6, then we will talk. You do not care about IPv6 ? No v4 for you.
Von: members-discuss [mailto:<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>] Im Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro><mailto:<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>dial@dialcube.ro<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net><mailto:<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
Hello, folks!
That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years.
But actually there really big injustice exists here!
I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used.
But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market.
And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a long time.
Than't really weird, isn't it?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro><mailto:<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>dial@dialcube.ro<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>>> wrote: Hi all,
This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about.
On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense...
On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: Hi, all.
I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before 2012, to the NCC pool.
-- Kind regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO 7 926 6908729
14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley :
Dear colleagues,
The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts.
There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run against the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open additional LIR accounts.
The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool.
ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss the following points:
1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented?
2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention?
Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on RIPE Labs: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-lir-accounts?pk_campaign=members&pk_kwd=list-ncc
The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss mailing list .
The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome of that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016.
Best regards,
Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Jack Kwaoo noc More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/ ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- ________________________________ <logo_Emartinezconfondo.png> Nombre: Raul Pizarro Vazquez Cargo: Responsable Técnico Departamento: Centro de Observacion de Red Email: intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com<mailto:intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com> Oficina: 968 165 000 Averías: 676 966 000 Página web: <http://www.electronicamartinez.es> www.electronicamartinez.es<http://www.electronicamartinez.es> ________________________________ <Linked_In_logo_initials_1.png><https://www.linkedin.com/company/10271615> <twitter_logo.png><https://twitter.com/EMartinez_SL> <fb_icon_325x325.png><https://www.facebook.com/electronicamartinez0> <Google_Plus_Logo.png><https://plus.google.com/b/114382878353884084293/114382878353884084293> ________________________________ ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Why they are bad for economy? As you could see in my research http://www.stableit.ru/2016/01/full-bgp-table-distribution-by-prefix.html current IPv4 routing space already VERY fragmented and /24 subnet is most popular now. So actually we could just forget about network aggregation :( On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Dominik Nowacki <dominik@clouvider.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Pavel, Then no one transfers, many LIRs have large unused pools and you can't even buy them on the market. Even worse situation - tax is bad for economy.
With Kind Regards, Dominik Nowacki
Clouvider Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: *08750969* <08750969>. Registered office: *88 Wood Street, London, United Kingdom, EC2V 7RS*. Please note that Clouvider Limited may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and staff training. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the intended recipient. If you do not believe you are the intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify *abuse@clouvider.net* <abuse@clouvider.net> of this e-mail immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Clouvider Limited nor any of its employees therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version.
On 11 Feb 2016, at 15:37, Pavel Odintsov <odintsov@fastvps.ru> wrote:
So I have yet another advice.
I like idea to pay some taxes for each transferred subnet. If you move /16 you should "pay" /20 to public RIPE's pool. What about this?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Raul Pizarro Vazquez < intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com> wrote:
Why not just to set a yearly fee for all IPs? for example 0,01$ / IP per Month or so. Making that ips will really unused will get back to ripe soon. Ripe could give them free again but all of us should pay a little monthly for have them.
El 11/02/16 a las 16:05, Pavel Odintsov escribió:
I have few words about IPv6. I'm real fan of IPv6.
But actually almost all companies who want last /22 subnet just get IPv6 and do not use it really. From my point of view, you should check real network usage by analyzing BGP routing table.
In other words each LIR should: 1) Get new IPv6 subet from RIPE 2) Announce it and offer IPv6 address for checks 3) Get last /22 IPv4 subnet
Almost all "IPv6" subnets received for last months haven't used really. That's bad.
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jack <noc@kwaoo.net> wrote:
RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer listing service. Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Providers who need them, means, in my opinion, providers who have a wide IPv6 deployment. Tough job to appreciate the IPv6 deployement status of a LIR, but I really think this must be a requirement for getting more IPv4 easily.
You want IPv4 ? Deploy IPv6, then we will talk. You do not care about IPv6 ? No v4 for you.
Von: members-discuss [mailto: <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto: <dial@dialcube.ro> dial@dialcube.ro>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto: <members-discuss@ripe.net> members-discuss@ripe.net> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
Hello, folks!
That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years.
But actually there really big injustice exists here!
I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used.
But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market.
And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a long time.
Than't really weird, isn't it?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto: <dial@dialcube.ro>dial@dialcube.ro>> wrote: Hi all,
This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to
members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about.
On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and
other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense...
On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: Hi, all.
I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before 2012, to the NCC pool.
-- Kind regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO 7 926 6908729
14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley :
Dear colleagues,
The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts.
There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in
November
2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR
accounts,
each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run
against
the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open
additional
LIR accounts.
The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool.
ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and
discuss
the following points:
1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented?
2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what
action
should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention?
Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on RIPE Labs:
The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members
Discuss
mailing list .
The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the
next
Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome
of
that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016.
Best regards,
Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the
general page:
https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Jack Kwaoo noc
More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- ------------------------------ <logo_Emartinezconfondo.png>
*Nombre:* Raul Pizarro Vazquez *Cargo:* Responsable Técnico *Departamento:* Centro de Observacion de Red *Email:* intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com *Oficina:* 968 165 000 *Averías:* 676 966 000 *Página web:* <http://www.electronicamartinez.es> www.electronicamartinez.es ------------------------------ <Linked_In_logo_initials_1.png> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/10271615> <twitter_logo.png> <https://twitter.com/EMartinez_SL> <fb_icon_325x325.png> <https://www.facebook.com/electronicamartinez0> <Google_Plus_Logo.png> <https://plus.google.com/b/114382878353884084293/114382878353884084293> ------------------------------
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
You can't think about aggregation anymore. Fortunately, RAM is not an expensive finite resource, unlike IPv4 is. On 11.02.16 17:40, Pavel Odintsov wrote:
Why they are bad for economy? As you could see in my research http://www.stableit.ru/2016/01/full-bgp-table-distribution-by-prefix.html current IPv4 routing space already VERY fragmented and /24 subnet is most popular now.
So actually we could just forget about network aggregation :(
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Dominik Nowacki <dominik@clouvider.co.uk <mailto:dominik@clouvider.co.uk>> wrote:
Hi Pavel, Then no one transfers, many LIRs have large unused pools and you can't even buy them on the market. Even worse situation - tax is bad for economy.
With Kind Regards, Dominik Nowacki
Clouvider Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: _08750969_ <tel:08750969>. Registered office: _88 Wood Street, London, United Kingdom, EC2V 7RS_. Please note that Clouvider Limited may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and staff training. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the intended recipient. If you do not believe you are the intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify _abuse@clouvider.net_ <mailto:abuse@clouvider.net> of this e-mail immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Clouvider Limited nor any of its employees therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version.
On 11 Feb 2016, at 15:37, Pavel Odintsov <odintsov@fastvps.ru <mailto:odintsov@fastvps.ru>> wrote:
So I have yet another advice.
I like idea to pay some taxes for each transferred subnet. If you move /16 you should "pay" /20 to public RIPE's pool. What about this?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Raul Pizarro Vazquez <intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com <mailto:intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com>> wrote:
Why not just to set a yearly fee for all IPs? for example 0,01$ / IP per Month or so. Making that ips will really unused will get back to ripe soon. Ripe could give them free again but all of us should pay a little monthly for have them.
El 11/02/16 a las 16:05, Pavel Odintsov escribió:
I have few words about IPv6. I'm real fan of IPv6.
But actually almost all companies who want last /22 subnet just get IPv6 and do not use it really. From my point of view, you should check real network usage by analyzing BGP routing table.
In other words each LIR should: 1) Get new IPv6 subet from RIPE 2) Announce it and offer IPv6 address for checks 3) Get last /22 IPv4 subnet
Almost all "IPv6" subnets received for last months haven't used really. That's bad.
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jack <noc@kwaoo.net <mailto:noc@kwaoo.net>> wrote:
> RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer listing service. > Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Providers who need them, means, in my opinion, providers who have a wide IPv6 deployment. Tough job to appreciate the IPv6 deployement status of a LIR, but I really think this must be a requirement for getting more IPv4 easily.
You want IPv4 ? Deploy IPv6, then we will talk. You do not care about IPv6 ? No v4 for you.
> > > Von: members-discuss [mailto:<mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>] Im Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 > An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro><mailto:<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>>> > Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net><mailto:<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> > Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss > > Hello, folks! > > That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years. > > But actually there really big injustice exists here! > > I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used. > > But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market. > > And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a long time. > > Than't really weird, isn't it? > > On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro><mailto:<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>>> wrote: > Hi all, > > This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about. > > > On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: > I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense... > > > > On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: > Hi, all. > > I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before > 2012, to the NCC pool. > > -- > Kind regards, > Aleksey Bulgakov > FastTelecom, CEO > 7 926 6908729 > > 14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley : > > Dear colleagues, > > The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to > discuss > the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts. > > There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November > 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, > each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run against > the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board > decided to > temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open additional > LIR accounts. > > The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 > policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has > allocated > more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the > pool. > > ACTION REQUIRED: > The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss > the following points: > > 1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a > problem > that must be prevented? > > 2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action > should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention? > > Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this > article on > RIPE Labs: > https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-lir-accounts?pk_campaign=members&pk_kwd=list-ncc > > The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss > mailing list . > > The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next > Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome of > that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to > vote on > at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016. > > Best regards, > > Nigel Titley > RIPE NCC Executive Board > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > -- > Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov > CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. >
-- Jack Kwaoo noc
More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/
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-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
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In my opinion that’s a bad idea. For example, LIR A buys another company which happens to be a LIR. (For other reasons than the IP resources) Then they shouldn’t need to pay a bunch of IP’s that may very well be in active use, just to transfer the resources from LIR B to LIR A. //JH
On 11 Feb 2016, at 16:36, Pavel Odintsov <odintsov@fastvps.ru> wrote:
So I have yet another advice.
I like idea to pay some taxes for each transferred subnet. If you move /16 you should "pay" /20 to public RIPE's pool. What about this?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Raul Pizarro Vazquez <intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com <mailto:intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com>> wrote: Why not just to set a yearly fee for all IPs? for example 0,01$ / IP per Month or so. Making that ips will really unused will get back to ripe soon. Ripe could give them free again but all of us should pay a little monthly for have them.
El 11/02/16 a las 16:05, Pavel Odintsov escribió:
I have few words about IPv6. I'm real fan of IPv6.
But actually almost all companies who want last /22 subnet just get IPv6 and do not use it really. From my point of view, you should check real network usage by analyzing BGP routing table.
In other words each LIR should: 1) Get new IPv6 subet from RIPE 2) Announce it and offer IPv6 address for checks 3) Get last /22 IPv4 subnet
Almost all "IPv6" subnets received for last months haven't used really. That's bad.
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jack <noc@kwaoo.net <mailto:noc@kwaoo.net>> wrote:
RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer listing service. Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Providers who need them, means, in my opinion, providers who have a wide IPv6 deployment. Tough job to appreciate the IPv6 deployement status of a LIR, but I really think this must be a requirement for getting more IPv4 easily.
You want IPv4 ? Deploy IPv6, then we will talk. You do not care about IPv6 ? No v4 for you.
Von: members-discuss [mailto: <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>] Im Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro><mailto: <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net><mailto: <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
Hello, folks!
That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years.
But actually there really big injustice exists here!
I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used.
But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market.
And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a long time.
Than't really weird, isn't it?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro><mailto: <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>dial@dialcube.ro <mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>>> wrote: Hi all,
This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about.
On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense...
On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: Hi, all.
I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before 2012, to the NCC pool.
-- Kind regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO 7 926 6908729
14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley :
Dear colleagues,
The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts.
There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run against the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open additional LIR accounts.
The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool.
ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss the following points:
1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented?
2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention?
Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on RIPE Labs: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-lir-accounts?pk_campaign=members&pk_kwd=list-ncc <https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-lir-accounts?pk_campaign=members&pk_kwd=list-ncc>
The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss mailing list .
The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome of that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016.
Best regards,
Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board
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Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
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-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ <https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/>
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Jack Kwaoo noc
More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/ <https://as24904.kwaoo.net/>
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ <https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/>
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-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
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-- <logo_Emartinezconfondo.png> Nombre: Raul Pizarro Vazquez Cargo: Responsable Técnico Departamento: Centro de Observacion de Red Email: intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com <mailto:intervenciones@electronicamartinez.com> Oficina: 968 165 000 Averías: 676 966 000 Página web: <http://www.electronicamartinez.es/>www.electronicamartinez.es <http://www.electronicamartinez.es/> <Linked_In_logo_initials_1.png> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/10271615> <twitter_logo.png> <https://twitter.com/EMartinez_SL> <fb_icon_325x325.png> <https://www.facebook.com/electronicamartinez0> <Google_Plus_Logo.png> <https://plus.google.com/b/114382878353884084293/114382878353884084293>
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 11/02/2016 16:41, Johan Hedberg wrote:
In my opinion that’s a bad idea. For example, LIR A buys another company which happens to be a LIR. (For other reasons than the IP resources) Then they shouldn’t need to pay a bunch of IP’s that may very well be in active use, just to transfer the resources from LIR B to LIR A.
Well there is quite a difference between this situation and the case or a speculative reseller. When a speculative reseller sells a subnet, this block is empty and there is no assignments nor used IPs on it. When company A buys company B with its activity (or part of it), there is an operational network on it. So authorizing "in use" blocks to be transferred looks OK. Despite simulating this is possible, it seems uneasy because in case of mergers and acquisitions the AS origins can be related, there should be quite a logical and proper history of assignments documented in the Whois, and the assignments will not move a lot immediately even in the cas of some reoganization in the transferred infrastructure, so simulating this is quite a complicated work. On the other hand, transfers of empty blocks are obviously either a matter of speculation, or of growing IPv4 business. So this could be more closely examined, especially of the sold block comes from a recent /22 allocation. Best regards, Sylvain - -- http://www.opdop.fr - mutualiser et interconnecter en coopérative Opdop - Société Coopérative d'Interêt Collectif sous forme de SARL sur IRC réseau geeknode #opdop - tél: 0950 31 54 74, 06 86 38 38 68 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iF4EAREIAAYFAlbF41gACgkQJBGsD8mtnRFHYwEAxIDdZhMckGwfFGzy4EDVzwmP qrdBmIua3+yKzoc/fwAA/i7VptISBLm0p9pvihfKmbPQaecFCF6ks72wgtigKeXC =Zxp7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi,
On 11.02.2016, at 16:36, Pavel Odintsov <odintsov@fastvps.ru> wrote:
So I have yet another advice.
I like idea to pay some taxes for each transferred subnet. If you move /16 you should "pay" /20 to public RIPE's pool. What about this? interesting. This would work for a while, but all ideas fail on the fact when I start renting out IPs to another LIR, they could even be reflected in the RIPE-DB, but still come out of another LIR.
When you really want to get v6 going, you should make v6 a requirement to use the RIPE-DB :) Then at least the network admins get dual stacked, and will notice if they are v6-offline (as described recently in the “decreasing v6-RIPEness report”. I would even go so far, to ask the registries to require v6 DNS-Servers, and ask the regulation in telecommunication (or the EU) to require v6-MX and web servers (when listed in public). Then the need for v4 address space is dampened down. Matthias -- UCND United City Network Development GmbH Ungargasse 58/13 1030 Wien, Österreich FN 188089b beim Handelsgericht Wien UID ATU 54974906 Mag. Matthias Šubik Hotline: +43 780 363636 Mobil.: +43 676 83820-787
On 12 Feb 2016, at 21:07, Matthias Šubik wrote:
When you really want to get v6 going, you should make v6 a requirement to use the RIPE-DB :) Then at least the network admins get dual stacked, and will notice if they are v6-offline (as described recently in the “decreasing v6-RIPEness report”.
I would even go so far, to ask the registries to require v6 DNS-Servers, and ask the regulation in telecommunication (or the EU) to require v6-MX and web servers (when listed in public).
Then the need for v4 address space is dampened down.
So going back to the original question really, which was multiple LIR accounts.. This has diverged into how/why people are taking them and that is that people want to abuse the rules around limited remaining IPv4 resources set aside for new entrants. So we can disincentivise through cost, admin and technical approaches. 1. Time delay before a new LIR can be merged with another, 12 months? This seems a reasonable option, why would anyone create a brand new LIR and then want to merge it <12 months. 2. Make additional fees for multiple LIRs under one organisation, if you want it fine, but pay for the additional admin burden. 3. Additional fees for six months once an LIR is merged. May seem drastic but if people are abusing current rules then you have to combat them. 4. If an LIR is opened it has AS and IP4/6, there should be some kind of rule about this IP space having been visible through that AS number before a merger is permitted. I am thinking about creating technical admin burden for people creating many LIRs, so that they will have to go through the technical hassle of setting up configurations before doing a merger, ie. even if you are willing to pay extra fees to open 10x LIR to get space then also be prepared to set up 10x BGP configs for it. Not completely related to the original point, but if you want to reduce motivation for people to still rely on IPv4 straight off then: 5. New LIR opens and is issued with IPv6 space immediately, then and only once that IPv6 space is up and visible in routing tables can you apply for your IPv4 space for that LIR. If you are not ready to run IPv6 at LIR opening, will you ever be? Just throwing out some ideas, may not be perfect of course.. Regards, Paul. -- Paul Civati <paul(at)racksense.com> 0870 321 2855 Rack Sense Ltd - Managed Service Provider - www.racksense.com
First off; I'm glad someone is trying to keep the conversation on track rather than allowing it to degrade further into the politics of IPv4 allocation restrictions /(and it is pure politics at this stage)/. As Paul points out the goal of this discussion is to reduce abuse of an extant policy, not a new one, and since the goal of said extant policy is to encourage IPv6 adoption I would agree with applying all of the below. But if we have to choose only one option then I'd vote for option 5 as it looks the most effective. -Tim On 12/02/16 23:13, Paul Civati wrote:
So going back to the original question really, which was multiple LIR accounts..
This has diverged into how/why people are taking them and that is that people want to abuse the rules around limited remaining IPv4 resources set aside for new entrants.
So we can disincentivise through cost, admin and technical approaches.
1. Time delay before a new LIR can be merged with another, 12 months? This seems a reasonable option, why would anyone create a brand new LIR and then want to merge it <12 months.
2. Make additional fees for multiple LIRs under one organisation, if you want it fine, but pay for the additional admin burden.
3. Additional fees for six months once an LIR is merged. May seem drastic but if people are abusing current rules then you have to combat them.
4. If an LIR is opened it has AS and IP4/6, there should be some kind of rule about this IP space having been visible through that AS number before a merger is permitted. I am thinking about creating technical admin burden for people creating many LIRs, so that they will have to go through the technical hassle of setting up configurations before doing a merger, ie. even if you are willing to pay extra fees to open 10x LIR to get space then also be prepared to set up 10x BGP configs for it.
Not completely related to the original point, but if you want to reduce motivation for people to still rely on IPv4 straight off then:
5. New LIR opens and is issued with IPv6 space immediately, then and only once that IPv6 space is up and visible in routing tables can you apply for your IPv4 space for that LIR. If you are not ready to run IPv6 at LIR opening, will you ever be?
Just throwing out some ideas, may not be perfect of course..
Regards, Paul.
-- <http://liquidns.com> Tim Armstrong Technical Director Treestle B.V. Goudsesingel 78, 3011 KD, Rotterdam, The Netherlands Chamber of Commerce: 59116803 Office: +31 (0) 10 3400 720 Mobile: +31 (0) 61 7544 472 Treestle runs one of the world's fastest global managed DNS platforms at www.liquidns.com <http://www.liquidns.com/> and offers LiquiD AutoScaler, a website-user centric autoscaling solution at www.liquidautoscaler.com <http://www.liquidautoscaler.com/>. Independent software vendor for: <https://apps.db.ripe.net/search/lookup.html?source=ripe&key=ORG-TB77-RIPE&type=organisation> Member of: <https://apps.db.ripe.net/search/lookup.html?source=ripe&key=ORG-TB77-RIPE&type=organisation> <https://aws.amazon.com/marketplace/pp/B013UXHSOO/?ref=_ptnr_pe_> <https://cloudstore.interoute.com/LiquiDAutoScalerBasic><https://liquidautoscaler.com/documentation/other/quickstart>
On 13.02.2016, at 16:28, Tim Armstrong <tim@treestle.com> wrote:
First off; I'm glad someone is trying to keep the conversation on track rather than allowing it to degrade further into the politics of IPv4 allocation restrictions (and it is pure politics at this stage).
As Paul points out the goal of this discussion is to reduce abuse of an extant policy, not a new one, and since the goal of said extant policy is to encourage IPv6 adoption I would agree with applying all of the below. But if we have to choose only one option then I'd vote for option 5 as it looks the most effective.
+1 here, as I did elaborate a bit on the ideas, the main reason is, I see LIRs around me already talking about opening another LIR first, before asking me if I’m doing the same or this new v6 thing. I doubt the higher fees would suffice, as they are passed on to the customer, and only help large incumbent telcos, sitting on a better pile of unused or unoptimized ip space. Matthias
-Tim
On 12/02/16 23:13, Paul Civati wrote:
...
5. New LIR opens and is issued with IPv6 space immediately, then and only once that IPv6 space is up and visible in routing tables can you apply for your IPv4 space for that LIR. If you are not ready to run IPv6 at LIR opening, will you ever be?
On 13 Feb 2016, at 19:20, Matthias Šubik wrote:
+1 here, as I did elaborate a bit on the ideas, the main reason is, I see LIRs around me already talking about opening another LIR first, before asking me if I’m doing the same or this new v6 thing.
I doubt the higher fees would suffice, as they are passed on to the customer, and only help large incumbent telcos, sitting on a better pile of unused or unoptimized ip space.
I was really thinking a multi-pronged approach, admin + cost + technical, combined together to create as much of a disincentive as possible. I'm not sure any single option alone will be enough. For some reason I had just assumed that essentially people were just running out of IPv4 space and looking to obtain some more. I had not considered that they were possibly selling this on to a customer as a 'product/service/solution'! Regards, Paul. -- Paul Civati <paul(at)racksense.com> 0870 321 2855 Rack Sense Ltd - Managed Service Provider - www.racksense.com
Hi, In order to overcome all these issues related to IPV4 RIPE NCC was concentrating in encouraging the use of IPV6 all these years. Real time usage of IPV6 is the ideal solution for all these problems related to IPV4. Thanks & Best Regards, Mohammed Raheemuddin -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Paul Civati Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2016 1:34 AM To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss On 13 Feb 2016, at 19:20, Matthias Šubik wrote:
+1 here, as I did elaborate a bit on the ideas, the main reason is, I see LIRs around me already talking about opening another LIR first, before asking me if I'm doing the same or this new v6 thing.
I doubt the higher fees would suffice, as they are passed on to the customer, and only help large incumbent telcos, sitting on a better pile of unused or unoptimized ip space.
I was really thinking a multi-pronged approach, admin + cost + technical, combined together to create as much of a disincentive as possible. I'm not sure any single option alone will be enough. For some reason I had just assumed that essentially people were just running out of IPv4 space and looking to obtain some more. I had not considered that they were possibly selling this on to a customer as a 'product/service/solution'! Regards, Paul. -- Paul Civati <paul(at)racksense.com> 0870 321 2855 Rack Sense Ltd - Managed Service Provider - www.racksense.com ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 12/02/2016 23:13, Paul Civati wrote:
1. Time delay before a new LIR can be merged with another, 12 months? This seems a reasonable option, why would anyone create a brand new LIR and then want to merge it <12 months.
2. Make additional fees for multiple LIRs under one organisation, if you want it fine, but pay for the additional admin burden.
...and don't get a /22 (could be a "chance" monopoly card).
3. Additional fees for six months once an LIR is merged. May seem drastic but if people are abusing current rules then you have to combat them.
unfair, this should be limited to empty /22s.
4. If an LIR is opened it has AS and IP4/6, there should be some kind of rule about this IP space having been visible through that AS number before a merger is permitted. I am thinking about creating technical admin burden for people creating many LIRs, so that they will have to go through the technical hassle of setting up configurations before doing a merger, ie. even if you are willing to pay extra fees to open 10x LIR to get space then also be prepared to set up 10x BGP configs for it.
This makes sense to me. A legitimate transfer should be backed by a quite consistent history of existance in the Whois documentation, and routing history, and also probably quite reasoneably continuity *after* the transfer. Maybe an algorithm could detect such things and validate them, or signal suspect cases to be examined by a human.
Not completely related to the original point, but if you want to reduce motivation for people to still rely on IPv4 straight off then:
5. New LIR opens and is issued with IPv6 space immediately, then and only once that IPv6 space is up and visible in routing tables can you apply for your IPv4 space for that LIR. If you are not ready to run IPv6 at LIR opening, will you ever be?
I think not related, and not realistic. This whould induce possibly really annoying issues for some companies (maybe by delaying their setup considerably if they are doing things right), while providing ridiculous proof : Let us announce our /48 from the border routeur, some ipv6 addresses to answer, provide a fake plan for the rest and so what ? Best regards, Sylvain - -- http://www.opdop.fr - mutualiser et interconnecter en coopérative Opdop - Société Coopérative d'Interêt Collectif sous forme de SARL sur IRC réseau geeknode #opdop - tél: 0950 31 54 74, 06 86 38 38 68 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iF4EAREIAAYFAlbF6NsACgkQJBGsD8mtnREqhQD+OO0vDN8+YUSqsSCq9idJv5A7 NTYrsfl4zHeHQbUCa4cA/iU6onD9erQ0wsxieSZGCzLoNN5Y/q5MtkYrxZNKuZEB =mJp8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi , Pavel, What do you mean by "offer IPv6 address for checks" ? As all of us understand "Announce IPv6" doesn't mean "Use IPv6" ? Announcing IPv6 doesn't require much efforts, isn't it. So method of "checking the use of IPv6" should be strong enough. В письме от Четверг, 11-фев-2016 18:05:29 пользователь Pavel Odintsov написал:
I have few words about IPv6. I'm real fan of IPv6.
But actually almost all companies who want last /22 subnet just get IPv6 and do not use it really. From my point of view, you should check real network usage by analyzing BGP routing table.
In other words each LIR should: 1) Get new IPv6 subet from RIPE 2) Announce it and offer IPv6 address for checks 3) Get last /22 IPv4 subnet
Almost all "IPv6" subnets received for last months haven't used really. That's bad.
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jack <noc@kwaoo.net> wrote:
RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer
listing service.
Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC
pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Providers who need them, means, in my opinion, providers who have a wide IPv6 deployment. Tough job to appreciate the IPv6 deployement status of a LIR, but I really think this must be a requirement for getting more IPv4 easily.
You want IPv4 ? Deploy IPv6, then we will talk. You do not care about IPv6 ? No v4 for you.
Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im
Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members
and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
Hello, folks!
That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We
bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years.
But actually there really big injustice exists here!
I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they
really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used.
But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch
of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market.
And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a
long time.
Than't really weird, isn't it?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto: dial@dialcube.ro>> wrote: Hi all,
This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to
open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about.
On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and
other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense...
On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: Hi, all.
I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before 2012, to the NCC pool.
-- Kind regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO 7 926 6908729
14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley : Dear colleagues,
The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts.
There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run
against
the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open
additional
LIR accounts.
The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last /8 policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool.
ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss the following points:
1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented?
2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention?
Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on
RIPE Labs:
https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-l ir-accounts?pk_campaign=members&pk_kwd=list-ncc>
The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss mailing list .
The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the next Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the outcome of that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016.
Best regards,
Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the
general page:
https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From
here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the
general page:
https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From
here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the
general page:
https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From
here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Jack Kwaoo noc
More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Best regards, Oleg A. Chernov OAC4-RIPE WildPark ISP, Nikolaev, Ukraine +380512 709555 +380512 470555
I'm agree. Complete check is pretty complex. Actually even routing table check for some IPv6 subnet existence will be better than "just receive IPv6 subnet allocation" on the paper. For example we could ask LIR to get Atlas probe and use it as IPv6 connectivity monitoring :) On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Oleg Chernov <olegch@wildpark.net> wrote:
Hi , Pavel,
What do you mean by "offer IPv6 address for checks" ?
As all of us understand "Announce IPv6" doesn't mean "Use IPv6" ?
Announcing IPv6 doesn't require much efforts, isn't it. So method of "checking the use of IPv6" should be strong enough.
В письме от Четверг, 11-фев-2016 18:05:29 пользователь Pavel Odintsov написал:
I have few words about IPv6. I'm real fan of IPv6.
But actually almost all companies who want last /22 subnet just get IPv6 and do not use it really. From my point of view, you should check real network usage by analyzing BGP routing table.
In other words each LIR should: 1) Get new IPv6 subet from RIPE 2) Announce it and offer IPv6 address for checks 3) Get last /22 IPv4 subnet
Almost all "IPv6" subnets received for last months haven't used really. That's bad.
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jack <noc@kwaoo.net> wrote:
RIPE supports reselling of big subnets by providing their Transfer
listing service.
Those networks shouldn’t be sold. They should be returned to the NCC
pool and be assigned to providers who need them. Providers who need them, means, in my opinion, providers who have a wide IPv6 deployment. Tough job to appreciate the IPv6 deployement status of a LIR, but I really think this must be a requirement for getting more IPv4 easily.
You want IPv4 ? Deploy IPv6, then we will talk. You do not care about IPv6 ? No v4 for you.
Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im
Auftrag von Pavel Odintsov
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Februar 2016 15:42 An: Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro<mailto:dial@dialcube.ro>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members
and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
Hello, folks!
That's good conversation. I'm representing VPS service company. We
bought multiple /20 and /21 subnets at last 2 years.
But actually there really big injustice exists here!
I've followed all RIPE guidance and request resources only when they
really required for next 3-6 months. I have 95% subnet utilization in each network! All my IP addresses really used.
But I known so much LIR's who just ignore RIPE rules and requested bunch
of /18, /16 networks many years ago.... just because they can. Right now almost all this networks are on IPv4 market.
And I should pay my money to persons which violated RIPE rules for a
long time.
Than't really weird, isn't it?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Radu Brebu <dial@dialcube.ro <mailto: dial@dialcube.ro>> wrote: Hi all,
This is a socialist way of thinking, you are free (ipotetic speaking) to
open another lir and satisfy your VPS needs no? some companies prefer to plan their business long term. In my opinion it's not ok to prioritize resources keeping in mind only the need. We are leaving and doing business in a capitalist environment, buying resources it is what is all about.
On 02/11/16 16:19, José Manuel Giner wrote: I agree with it. We need IPs to continue providing VPS servers, and
other LIRs with unused prefixes, no sense...
On 11/02/2016 15:09, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: Hi, all.
I think, it is better to return unused allocations, received before 2012, to the NCC pool.
-- Kind regards, Aleksey Bulgakov FastTelecom, CEO 7 926 6908729
14:02, 11 февраля 2016 г., Nigel Titley : Dear colleagues,
The RIPE NCC Executive Board would like to ask the membership to discuss the issue of RIPE NCC members opening additional LIR accounts.
There were comments at the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) in November 2015 that members having the ability to open additional LIR accounts, each of which can request a /22 of IPv4 address space, may run
against
the spirit of the last /8 policy. In light of this, the Board decided to temporarily suspend the ability of RIPE NCC members to open
additional
LIR accounts.
The RIPE NCC began to allocate IPv4 address space from the last
/8
policy on 14 September 2012. Since that time the RIPE NCC has allocated more than 8,600 /22s, yet there remains 0.94 of a /8 still in the pool.
ACTION REQUIRED: The Board asks the membership to provide their opinion on and discuss the following points:
1. Is the activity of members opening additional LIR accounts a problem that must be prevented?
2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what
action
should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention?
Statistics pertinent to this discussion are available in this article on
RIPE Labs:
https://labs.ripe.net/Members/laura_cobley/ripe-ncc-members-and-multiple-l
ir-accounts?pk_campaign=members&pk_kwd=list-ncc>
The Board asks that members discuss this issue on the Members Discuss mailing list .
The Board will monitor the discussion and will review it at the
next
Executive Board Meeting on 31 March 2016. Depending on the
outcome
of that meeting, the Board may propose a resolution for members to vote on at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2016.
Best regards,
Nigel Titley RIPE NCC Executive Board
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the
general page:
https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From
here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the
general page:
https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From
here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the
general page:
https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From
here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Jack Kwaoo noc
More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Best regards, Oleg A. Chernov OAC4-RIPE WildPark ISP, Nikolaev, Ukraine +380512 709555 +380512 470555
-- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov CTO, FastVPS Eesti OU
participants (14)
-
Dominik Nowacki -
info -
Jack -
Johan Hedberg -
marco＠naefmarco.ch -
Matthias Šubik -
Max Tulyev -
mraheem -
Oleg Chernov -
Paul Civati -
Pavel Odintsov -
Raul Pizarro Vazquez -
Sylvain Vallerot -
Tim Armstrong