New charging model
Hello, for us the new charging model seems to be unbalanced. Bigger LIR, as for example big telcos (Deutsche Telekom in germany for example with lots of ip-adresses in use) seem to pay much less for the service for each ipv4 they use, compared to small onces, as there is a fee-limit of aprox. 5000 EUR yearly. For smaller companies the new model will be an increase in cost, as the border to small as /22 is not high enough, so that they will be billed as regular (thus 50% of big LIR!). Next problem is, that big LIR may pick category "small" without beeing punished. Peter ============================================== Angaben gem. § 35a GmbHG ============================================== EFN eifel-net Internet-Provider GmbH vertreten durch die Geschäftsführer Michael Bergeritz Dipl.- Kfm. Peter Thiele Bendenstr.31-33, 53879 Euskirchen Tel. 0900-524 5 524 (0,99 EUR/Min aus dem deutschen Festnetz, Preis kann für Anrufe aus den Mobilfunknetzen abweichen.) (Installationsunterstützung Einrichten Internet-Zugang) Tel. 02251-9700-36 Fax. 02251-9700-37 (nicht nutzbar für Werbezwecke) eMail: info@eifel-net.net (nicht nutzbar für Werbezwecke) EFN eifel-net Internet-Provider GmbH ist eingetragen im Handelregister des Amtsgericht Bonn unter Registernummer HRB11527. Die Umsatzsteueridentifikationsnummer lautet DE186 267 460. Wir teilen hiermit offenkundig mit, daß wir keine Zusendung von Werbung per eMail oder Fax wünschen, wenn wir dieser vorher nicht ausdrücklich schriftlich zugestimmt haben.
Hello, On 09.07.2012, at 17:43, eifel-net GmbH wrote:
ip-adresses in use) seem to pay much less for the service for each ipv4 they use, compared to small onces, as there is a fee-limit of aprox. 5000
you do not pay for addresses. you do not pay for addresses. Please write 500 times.
EUR yearly. For smaller companies the new model will be an increase in cost, as the border to small as /22 is not high enough, so that they will be billed as regular (thus 50% of big LIR!). Next problem is, that big LIR may pick category "small" without beeing punished.
working in customer support the reality is that the amount of support a company needs is independent of the size. Often smaller companies even need more support then the big ones. If you want to be a LIR you have to pay for it (it = the service). Otherwise get addresses from your upstream and be happy with it. I (as a private internet citizen) support the new model (although I think that self-assessment is not such a good idea). best regards, Wolfgang
Hi Peter, I am with your opinion. We should promote SMBs since they are the base ground of the whole economy. Now in crisis times promote iniciatives is all about. Regards, Daniel Sendin Dahlke El 09/07/2012, a las 17:43, eifel-net GmbH <technik@eifel-net.net> escribió:
Hello,
for us the new charging model seems to be unbalanced. Bigger LIR, as for example big telcos (Deutsche Telekom in germany for example with lots of ip-adresses in use) seem to pay much less for the service for each ipv4 they use, compared to small onces, as there is a fee-limit of aprox. 5000 EUR yearly. For smaller companies the new model will be an increase in cost, as the border to small as /22 is not high enough, so that they will be billed as regular (thus 50% of big LIR!). Next problem is, that big LIR may pick category "small" without beeing punished.
Peter
============================================== Angaben gem. § 35a GmbHG ============================================== EFN eifel-net Internet-Provider GmbH vertreten durch die Geschäftsführer Michael Bergeritz Dipl.- Kfm. Peter Thiele Bendenstr.31-33, 53879 Euskirchen Tel. 0900-524 5 524 (0,99 EUR/Min aus dem deutschen Festnetz, Preis kann für Anrufe aus den Mobilfunknetzen abweichen.) (Installationsunterstützung Einrichten Internet-Zugang) Tel. 02251-9700-36 Fax. 02251-9700-37 (nicht nutzbar für Werbezwecke) eMail: info@eifel-net.net (nicht nutzbar für Werbezwecke)
EFN eifel-net Internet-Provider GmbH ist eingetragen im Handelregister des Amtsgericht Bonn unter Registernummer HRB11527. Die Umsatzsteueridentifikationsnummer lautet DE186 267 460.
Wir teilen hiermit offenkundig mit, daß wir keine Zusendung von Werbung per eMail oder Fax wünschen, wenn wir dieser vorher nicht ausdrücklich schriftlich zugestimmt haben.
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I'm agree. And with declarations like Wolfgang did, the big company are very happy. ("If you want to be a LIR you have to pay for it"). The model is better for the big company (go to congress because they could and make lobby). They have departments only to work in this. It´s a loss battle and we could speak long time about this but at the end, they have the power and they support RIPE. Saludos... =========================================== Luis Ángel Lozano Aparicio Comunicaciones y Seguridad Grupo Acotel e-mail: comunicaciones@acotelsa.com ------------------------------------------ Tlf: 983 440274 - 902 194273 Fax:983 548220 Oficina 201 - Edificio Galileo, módulo Rojo Parque Tecnológico de Boecillo 47151 Boecillo (Valladolid) - España =========================================== -----Mensaje original----- De: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] En nombre de Daniel Sendin Dahlke Enviado el: martes, 10 de julio de 2012 10:22 Para: eifel-net GmbH CC: members-discuss@ripe.net Asunto: Re: [members-discuss] New charging model Hi Peter, I am with your opinion. We should promote SMBs since they are the base ground of the whole economy. Now in crisis times promote iniciatives is all about. Regards, Daniel Sendin Dahlke El 09/07/2012, a las 17:43, eifel-net GmbH <technik@eifel-net.net> escribió:
Hello,
for us the new charging model seems to be unbalanced. Bigger LIR, as for example big telcos (Deutsche Telekom in germany for example with lots of ip-adresses in use) seem to pay much less for the service for each ipv4 they use, compared to small onces, as there is a fee-limit of aprox. 5000 EUR yearly. For smaller companies the new model will be an increase in cost, as the border to small as /22 is not high enough, so that they will be billed as regular (thus 50% of big LIR!). Next problem is, that big LIR may pick category "small" without beeing punished.
Peter
============================================== Angaben gem. § 35a GmbHG ============================================== EFN eifel-net Internet-Provider GmbH vertreten durch die Geschäftsführer Michael Bergeritz Dipl.- Kfm. Peter Thiele Bendenstr.31-33, 53879 Euskirchen Tel. 0900-524 5 524 (0,99 EUR/Min aus dem deutschen Festnetz, Preis kann für Anrufe aus den Mobilfunknetzen abweichen.) (Installationsunterstützung Einrichten Internet-Zugang) Tel. 02251-9700-36 Fax. 02251-9700-37 (nicht nutzbar für Werbezwecke) eMail: info@eifel-net.net (nicht nutzbar für Werbezwecke)
EFN eifel-net Internet-Provider GmbH ist eingetragen im Handelregister des Amtsgericht Bonn unter Registernummer HRB11527. Die Umsatzsteueridentifikationsnummer lautet DE186 267 460.
Wir teilen hiermit offenkundig mit, daß wir keine Zusendung von Werbung per eMail oder Fax wünschen, wenn wir dieser vorher nicht ausdrücklich schriftlich zugestimmt haben.
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Hi Peter, The numbers are currently this: Extra Small: 2,241 Small: 4,071 Medium: 1,461 Large: 290 Extra Large: 72 Total: 8,135 That means that from 8135 LIRs in total, only 290 large and 72 are extra large in the current charging model, which is only 0,04449 % of the total population. Let's take a step to the side and compare this to for instance the US wealth distribution:
In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%. Financial inequality was greater than inequality in total wealth, with the top 1% of the population owning 42.7%, the next 19% of Americans owning 50.3%, and the bottom 80% owning 7% Source: Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth with reference to: http://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2011/11/01/occupy-wall-street-and...
However, guess how that distribution is at the US Senate? More than 50% of the voting Senators are multimillionaires, who probably are in the top 20% of the Americans income wise. And if you go back to the RIPE AGM meeting ... guess who is attending and voting? I'm guessing around 300 people in the room and most likely around 150 votes are counted. (feel free to correct me on the actual numbers, but this is my gut feeling..) If you think the model is unbalanced, feel free to see if there is another model, however any kind of category based on prior possession or usage of v4 IP's is short lived imho. The large telco's all have the same voting power as the smaller LIR's, but if the 'other 99%' doesn't bother to show up, or vote or provide a proxy form for someone else to vote on their behalf. . . . Yes it is good to discuss this here on the mailing list with a Passion, but if you don't really up enough supporters to vote in your favor on the AGM where the actual voting is done ... Personally I don't think that we should ANY kind of usage based linking or size system. And with 68% of the total members in the Regular bucket currently, I think it is a good step forward as it is a good representation of the membership. On the sign-up / intake of the extra small / new lir's. Perhaps there should be a growing path to the regular bucket (initial 1 or 2 year increases towards regular), rather than a chose your own category. And for the extra large LIR's ? Who cares ... they are not any more special than any other LIR and with only 0,04449% of the total membership, why bother adding an extra category ... Regards, Erik Bais
Hi On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Erik Bais <erik@bais.name> wrote:
Hi Peter,
The numbers are currently this:
Extra Small: 2,241 Small: 4,071 Medium: 1,461 Large: 290 Extra Large: 72 Total: 8,135
That means that from 8135 LIRs in total, only 290 large and 72 are extra large in the current charging model, which is only 0,04449 % of the total population.
Let's take a step to the side and compare this to for instance the US wealth distribution:
In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%. Financial inequality was greater than inequality in total wealth, with the top 1% of the population owning 42.7%, the next 19% of Americans owning 50.3%, and the bottom 80% owning 7% Source: Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth with reference to: http://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2011/11/01/occupy-wall-street-and...
However, guess how that distribution is at the US Senate? More than 50% of the voting Senators are multimillionaires, who probably are in the top 20% of the Americans income wise.
And if you go back to the RIPE AGM meeting ... guess who is attending and voting? I'm guessing around 300 people in the room and most likely around 150 votes are counted. (feel free to correct me on the actual numbers, but this is my gut feeling..)
If you think the model is unbalanced, feel free to see if there is another model, however any kind of category based on prior possession or usage of v4 IP's is short lived imho.
The large telco's all have the same voting power as the smaller LIR's, but if the 'other 99%' doesn't bother to show up, or vote or provide a proxy form for someone else to vote on their behalf. . . .
Yes it is good to discuss this here on the mailing list with a Passion, but if you don't really up enough supporters to vote in your favor on the AGM where the actual voting is done ...
Personally I don't think that we should ANY kind of usage based linking or size system. And with 68% of the total members in the Regular bucket currently, I think it is a good step forward as it is a good representation of the membership.
On the sign-up / intake of the extra small / new lir's. Perhaps there should be a growing path to the regular bucket (initial 1 or 2 year increases towards regular), rather than a chose your own category.
And for the extra large LIR's ? Who cares ... they are not any more special than any other LIR and with only 0,04449% of the total membership, why bother adding an extra category ...
Just a quick common, these 0.0XXX% of member represent of 99.XX% resource usage,correct me if I am wrong.
Regards, Erik Bais
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Hi Peter,
The numbers are currently this:
Extra Small: 2,241 Small: 4,071 Medium: 1,461 Large: 290 Extra Large: 72 Total: 8,135
That means that from 8135 LIRs in total, only 290 large and 72 are extra large in the current charging model, which is only 0,04449 % of the total
That is Erik. The numbers could be used as you want. It´s like the economic problems, but the politic must be about it to work to be fair. Saludos... =========================================== Luis Ángel Lozano Aparicio Comunicaciones y Seguridad Grupo Acotel e-mail: comunicaciones@acotelsa.com ------------------------------------------ Tlf: 983 440274 - 902 194273 Fax:983 548220 Oficina 201 - Edificio Galileo, módulo Rojo Parque Tecnológico de Boecillo 47151 Boecillo (Valladolid) - España =========================================== -----Mensaje original----- De: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] En nombre de Lu Heng Enviado el: martes, 10 de julio de 2012 11:50 Para: Erik Bais CC: eifel-net GmbH; members-discuss@ripe.net Asunto: Re: [members-discuss] New charging model Hi On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Erik Bais <erik@bais.name> wrote: population.
Let's take a step to the side and compare this to for instance the US
wealth distribution:
In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the
Financial inequality was greater than inequality in total wealth, with the top 1% of the population owning 42.7%, the next 19% of Americans owning 50.3%, and the bottom 80% owning 7% Source: Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth with reference to: http://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2011/11/01/occupy-wall-stre et-and-the-rhetoric-of-equality/
However, guess how that distribution is at the US Senate? More than 50% of
country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%. the voting Senators are multimillionaires, who probably are in the top 20% of the Americans income wise.
And if you go back to the RIPE AGM meeting ... guess who is attending and voting? I'm guessing around 300 people in the room and most likely around 150 votes are counted. (feel free to correct me on the actual numbers, but this is my gut feeling..)
If you think the model is unbalanced, feel free to see if there is another
model, however any kind of category based on prior possession or usage of v4 IP's is short lived imho.
The large telco's all have the same voting power as the smaller LIR's, but
if the 'other 99%' doesn't bother to show up, or vote or provide a proxy form for someone else to vote on their behalf. . . .
Yes it is good to discuss this here on the mailing list with a Passion,
but if you don't really up enough supporters to vote in your favor on the AGM where the actual voting is done ...
Personally I don't think that we should ANY kind of usage based linking or
size system. And with 68% of the total members in the Regular bucket currently, I think it is a good step forward as it is a good representation of the membership.
On the sign-up / intake of the extra small / new lir's. Perhaps there
should be a growing path to the regular bucket (initial 1 or 2 year increases towards regular), rather than a chose your own category.
And for the extra large LIR's ? Who cares ... they are not any more
special than any other LIR and with only 0,04449% of the total membership, why bother adding an extra category ... Just a quick common, these 0.0XXX% of member represent of 99.XX% resource usage,correct me if I am wrong.
Regards, Erik Bais
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general page:
https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
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Hi Lu,
Just a quick common, these 0.0XXX% of member represent of 99.XX% resource usage,correct me if I am wrong.
I'm not sure what the actual resource usage is by them, but will the number of v4 still matter post v4 depletion and everyone needs to go to v6 ? Would they also use actual RIPE NCC resources (personnel) at the same rate ? That is a much more interesting question imho, FTE usage will be a much bigger factor to count towards. The changes are, that the smaller LIR's (due to in-experience) take much longer to obtain additional assignments / allocations than larger (seasoned LIR's). I know a couple LIR's (probably medium ranked currently) which received a /19 or /18 between 2002 and 2005 and are still using that same prefix and haven't been back to the hostmasters since. Resource usages (in IP addresses) doesn't say much imho as it doesn't give a real indication on actual FTE usage in the RIPE office or the services used. Erik Bais
Hi On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Erik Bais <erik@bais.name> wrote:
Hi Lu,
Just a quick common, these 0.0XXX% of member represent of 99.XX% resource usage,correct me if I am wrong.
I'm not sure what the actual resource usage is by them, but will the number of v4 still matter post v4 depletion and everyone needs to go to v6 ?
Would they also use actual RIPE NCC resources (personnel) at the same rate ? That is a much more interesting question imho, FTE usage will be a much bigger factor to count towards. The changes are, that the smaller LIR's (due to in-experience) take much longer to obtain additional assignments / allocations than larger (seasoned LIR's). I know a couple LIR's (probably medium ranked currently) which received a /19 or /18 between 2002 and 2005 and are still using that same prefix and haven't been back to the hostmasters since.
Resource usages (in IP addresses) doesn't say much imho as it doesn't give a real indication on actual FTE usage in the RIPE office or the services used.
If only the Ripe service time usage is the matter, why not we charge LIR by flat hourly rate? The reason we are not I think is because internet is a community, billiionairs who already made a lot money in the business shouldn't ask more from new comers just because they ask too many questions. Every body are once a newbie. So we should lower the barriers of the community in order to have more people to join.
Erik Bais
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On 10/07/2012 11:06, Erik Bais wrote:
Resource usages (in IP addresses) doesn't say much imho as it doesn't give a real indication on actual FTE usage in the RIPE office or the services used.
Number resource usage doesn't say much until the day that the RIPE NCC performs an audit on the member. Nick
Hi, Am 10.07.12 11:46 schrieb "Erik Bais" unter <erik@bais.name>:
Hi Peter,
The numbers are currently this:
Extra Small: 2,241 Small: 4,071 Medium: 1,461 Large: 290 Extra Large: 72 Total: 8,135
That means that from 8135 LIRs in total, only 290 large and 72 are extra large in the current charging model, which is only 0,04449 % of the total population.
I don't have to be a math genius to know this is totally wrong. How can 362 out of 8135 be less then one percent? It must be nearly 5 percent. 4,45 percent sounds "a bit" more reasonable to me. kind regards Christoph
All, On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 05:43:17PM +0200, eifel-net GmbH wrote:
for us the new charging model seems to be unbalanced. Bigger LIR, as for example big telcos (Deutsche Telekom in germany for example with lots of ip-adresses in use) seem to pay much less for the service for each ipv4
the flat charging model is actually eminently forward-looking insofar as if ipv6 ever gets deployed, there should be reasonably little difference in the amount of allocations the LIRs hold. Now, if anyone wants to have another discussion on how to reign in budget inflation in the NCC, I'm game :) rgds, Sascha Luck
W dniu 09.07.2012 17:43, eifel-net GmbH pisze:
Hello,
for us the new charging model seems to be unbalanced. Bigger LIR, as for example big telcos (Deutsche Telekom in germany for example with lots of ip-adresses in use) seem to pay much less for the service for each ipv4 they use, compared to small onces, as there is a fee-limit of aprox. 5000 EUR yearly. For smaller companies the new model will be an increase in cost, as the border to small as /22 is not high enough, so that they will be billed as regular (thus 50% of big LIR!). Next problem is, that big LIR may pick category "small" without beeing punished.
Peter
I don't really get that. It happens on the list from time to time, when people start to complaing about charging. The truth is if you are planning to be a LIR it means that you are no longer a little company, because if you were, you could stay with PA from your ISP oraz PI if multihomed. We did it that way for years but then our upstream ISP refused giving more PI so we had to become a LIR. You need to pay for the rent, upstreams bandwith, electricity, and so on. RIPE fee is another on the list. So if you are whining about 2.5k EUR of yearly payment then you should rethink your buissness. If you get /22 it is 1024 addresses, substracting this and that (devices, routers, servers) you can cover about 800 customers, each and every one with own public IP. It means that you need to pay about 3 EUR a year per customer. It is about 26 euro cents per month. That amount is so ridicoulus, that you should spend more time expanding your network than complaining about RIPE fees. My two cents. Have a nice day -- Michał Margula :: <michal.margula@acsystemy.pl> AC Systemy Komputerowe Stanisław Bor spółka jawna 72-600 Świnoujście :: ul. Bohaterów Września 50/4 :: NIP 855-12-99-281
If you get /22 it is 1024 addresses, substracting this and that (devices, routers, servers) you can cover about 800 customers, each and every one with own public IP. It means that you need to pay about 3 EUR a year per customer. It is about 26 euro cents per month. That amount is so ridicoulus, that you should spend more time expanding your network than complaining about RIPE fees.
If we agree to this reasoning, why not have a system where your fee is proportional to the amount of resources you are allocated? For obviously this is also true if you are a bigger company with more customers? If the argument is that you don't use 256 times as many RIPE resources if you have a /8 instead of a /16, one could always go for APNIC-style formulae: http://www.apnic.net/services/become-a-member/how-much-does-it-cost
participants (11)
-
Christoph Neukirch -
Comunicaciones ACOTELSA -
Daniel Sendin Dahlke -
eifel-net GmbH -
Erik Bais -
Lu Heng -
Michał Margula -
Nick Hilliard -
Sascha Luck -
Thomas Jacob -
Wolfgang Tremmel