Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss
Hi, On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 06:58:01PM +0100, Jack wrote:
On 14/02/2016 18:52, Gert Doering wrote:
Members get a /29 IPv6 with no questions asked.
This is a *lot* of addresses. Addresses that won't allow me to reach more than 80% of the "top 1000 sites", according to http://www.worldipv6launch.org/measurements/ I am a huge IPv6 fan, but we need to be realistics: IPv6 only business is not possible today
But there is not so much the RIPE NCC can do about it. But if *you all* go out and call the sites that are important for your customers and explain that they will have poor performance (read: CGNAT) unless they enable IPv6, that will get things moving. Stop complaining that IPv6 isn't deployed - work to *make it*. (And this, gentlemen, is exactly why we're having this discussion - because too many folks are just complaining that IPv4 is running out (surprise!), that the IPv4 market is not fair (surprise!), but not spend that amount to get IPv6 rolled out further) BTW, nobody suggested doing "IPv6 only business" - do native IPv6 to your customers, put IPv4 on your big NAT boxes, and this exactly why we reserve a /22 IPv4 for people "late in the game": so your NAT boxes *can* reach those parts of the Internet that are stuck in the last century. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Kind regards Lu
在 2016年2月14日，下午7:11，Gert Doering <gert@space.net> 写道：
Hi,
On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 06:58:01PM +0100, Jack wrote:
On 14/02/2016 18:52, Gert Doering wrote: Members get a /29 IPv6 with no questions asked.
This is a *lot* of addresses. Addresses that won't allow me to reach more than 80% of the "top 1000 sites", according to http://www.worldipv6launch.org/measurements/ I am a huge IPv6 fan, but we need to be realistics: IPv6 only business is not possible today
But there is not so much the RIPE NCC can do about it.
But if *you all* go out and call the sites that are important for your customers and explain that they will have poor performance (read: CGNAT) unless they enable IPv6, that will get things moving.
Stop complaining that IPv6 isn't deployed - work to *make it*.
(And this, gentlemen, is exactly why we're having this discussion - because too many folks are just complaining that IPv4 is running out (surprise!), that the IPv4 market is not fair (surprise!), but not spend that amount to get IPv6 rolled out further)
BTW, nobody suggested doing "IPv6 only business" - do native IPv6 to your customers, put IPv4 on your big NAT boxes, and this exactly why we reserve a /22 IPv4 for people "late in the game": so your NAT boxes *can* reach those parts of the Internet that are stuck in the last century.
+1 Use NAT, or pay, and make v6 ready, seriously, I don't think there are much more you can do about it aside from above three options. Rely your business model on the almost none exists free pool are rather delusional and unrealistic.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Is there a single hosting service in the RIPE region that uses CGNAT ? Are *you* using CGnat ? In my country, nobody uses such tech. All "big ISP" are IPv4-only (on IPv6-but-not-by-default) One of the biggest hosting service is IPv4 only Maybe CDN are IPv4 only Am I supposed to send email saying "please, spend millions € for my too-few customers-you-do-not-care-about" ? Cute Going back to the answer ("are the abuse a problem"). I think this answer is related to the RIPE policy about IPv4 exhaustion etc. To be fair, I do not think that the "last /8 policy", that can be resumed to "take a /22 and fend for yourself" is wrong (uncomplete, at least). Because it allow compagnies to born, not to live. CGNAT and IPv6-only network are not a solution today, for a newcomer. As a newcomers, you MUST prove everything. You cannot afford a worse service. What I expect from the RIPE, as a member, are a work on these two roads: - get back IPv4 from notably unused space. That a new way, as I do not think this as be done before. However, I am sure this is a legit act (holy, not evil). And people will not (nor can, actually) reject the RIPE. Many people (transits, at least) are filtering BGP announce based on the RIPE object. Plus, if people really do not care about the RIPE and friends, they would just create a dummy compagny somewhere is africa, and use africaan IP. Nobody does that. - This leads me to the second road: push IPv6 forward. These IPv4 (and all IPv4, including the /22 given the every LIR) must not be given to anybody that cannot show a real IPv6 usage. I agree with Gert etc at least on this point: people that do not use IPv6 are not playing the game, and should not enjoy any benefits. I do not know if there is any stuff that can be done to push IPv6 forward. Point #1 would be useless is #2 succeed. #1 is needed until #2 reach success. Thank for reading; On 14/02/2016 19:58, H.Lu wrote:
Kind regards
Lu
在 2016年2月14日，下午7:11，Gert Doering <gert@space.net> 写道：
Hi,
On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 06:58:01PM +0100, Jack wrote:
On 14/02/2016 18:52, Gert Doering wrote: Members get a /29 IPv6 with no questions asked.
This is a *lot* of addresses. Addresses that won't allow me to reach more than 80% of the "top 1000 sites", according to http://www.worldipv6launch.org/measurements/ I am a huge IPv6 fan, but we need to be realistics: IPv6 only business is not possible today
But there is not so much the RIPE NCC can do about it.
But if *you all* go out and call the sites that are important for your customers and explain that they will have poor performance (read: CGNAT) unless they enable IPv6, that will get things moving.
Stop complaining that IPv6 isn't deployed - work to *make it*.
(And this, gentlemen, is exactly why we're having this discussion - because too many folks are just complaining that IPv4 is running out (surprise!), that the IPv4 market is not fair (surprise!), but not spend that amount to get IPv6 rolled out further)
BTW, nobody suggested doing "IPv6 only business" - do native IPv6 to your customers, put IPv4 on your big NAT boxes, and this exactly why we reserve a /22 IPv4 for people "late in the game": so your NAT boxes *can* reach those parts of the Internet that are stuck in the last century.
+1
Use NAT, or pay, and make v6 ready, seriously, I don't think there are much more you can do about it aside from above three options. Rely your business model on the almost none exists free pool are rather delusional and unrealistic.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Jack Kwaoo noc More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/
Here in sweden there a couple of isp's who have deployed cgnat + native v6 to end users since (i presume) theyre running out of v4. Alternatively to be ready for when they will actually need it. It's still possible to explicitly ask for public v4, but where they've deployed it the default is cgnat + native v6. Den 14 feb 2016 20:24 skrev Jack <noc@kwaoo.net>:
Is there a single hosting service in the RIPE region that uses CGNAT ?
Are *you* using CGnat ? In my country, nobody uses such tech. All "big ISP" are IPv4-only (on IPv6-but-not-by-default) One of the biggest hosting service is IPv4 only Maybe CDN are IPv4 only
Am I supposed to send email saying "please, spend millions € for my too-few customers-you-do-not-care-about" ?
Cute
Going back to the answer ("are the abuse a problem"). I think this answer is related to the RIPE policy about IPv4 exhaustion etc. To be fair, I do not think that the "last /8 policy", that can be resumed to "take a /22 and fend for yourself" is wrong (uncomplete, at least). Because it allow compagnies to born, not to live. CGNAT and IPv6-only network are not a solution today, for a newcomer. As a newcomers, you MUST prove everything. You cannot afford a worse service.
What I expect from the RIPE, as a member, are a work on these two roads: - get back IPv4 from notably unused space. That a new way, as I do not think this as be done before. However, I am sure this is a legit act (holy, not evil). And people will not (nor can, actually) reject the RIPE. Many people (transits, at least) are filtering BGP announce based on the RIPE object. Plus, if people really do not care about the RIPE and friends, they would just create a dummy compagny somewhere is africa, and use africaan IP. Nobody does that.
- This leads me to the second road: push IPv6 forward. These IPv4 (and all IPv4, including the /22 given the every LIR) must not be given to anybody that cannot show a real IPv6 usage. I agree with Gert etc at least on this point: people that do not use IPv6 are not playing the game, and should not enjoy any benefits. I do not know if there is any stuff that can be done to push IPv6 forward.
Point #1 would be useless is #2 succeed. #1 is needed until #2 reach success.
Thank for reading;
On 14/02/2016 19:58, H.Lu wrote:
Kind regards
Lu
在 2016年2月14日，下午7:11，Gert Doering <gert@space.net> 写道：
Hi,
On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 06:58:01PM +0100, Jack wrote:
On 14/02/2016 18:52, Gert Doering wrote: Members get a /29 IPv6 with no questions asked.
This is a *lot* of addresses. Addresses that won't allow me to reach more than 80% of the "top 1000 sites", according to http://www.worldipv6launch.org/measurements/ I am a huge IPv6 fan, but we need to be realistics: IPv6 only business is not possible today
But there is not so much the RIPE NCC can do about it.
But if *you all* go out and call the sites that are important for your customers and explain that they will have poor performance (read: CGNAT) unless they enable IPv6, that will get things moving.
Stop complaining that IPv6 isn't deployed - work to *make it*.
(And this, gentlemen, is exactly why we're having this discussion - because too many folks are just complaining that IPv4 is running out (surprise!), that the IPv4 market is not fair (surprise!), but not spend that amount to get IPv6 rolled out further)
BTW, nobody suggested doing "IPv6 only business" - do native IPv6 to your customers, put IPv4 on your big NAT boxes, and this exactly why we reserve a /22 IPv4 for people "late in the game": so your NAT boxes *can* reach those parts of the Internet that are stuck in the last century.
+1
Use NAT, or pay, and make v6 ready, seriously, I don't think there are much more you can do about it aside from above three options. Rely your business model on the almost none exists free pool are rather delusional and unrealistic.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Jack Kwaoo noc
More details about KWAOO can be found at: https://as24904.kwaoo.net/
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
participants (4)
-
Gert Doering -
H.Lu -
Jack -
Oskar Stenman