Re: [members-discuss] Proposed 2012 Charging scheme, Board comments
At 11:16 03/10/2011 +0200, Erik Bais wrote:
Hi Jon,
Without repeating myself in this discussion, I'll just post a url for you to read from earlier this year on the topic. http://www.ripe.net/maillists/ncc-archives/members-discuss/2011/msg00154.htm...
Basically, the members approve the activity schedule for the RIPE NCC. That means that we also shouldn't bitch about a certain cost, not for profit doesn't mean free :)
We do not get much of a say as to how much budget should be applied for regional meetings, consultancy, training courses, RIPE meetings, marketing, r&d, etc. We are given a budget that increases every year and are told to ratify it - of which only 5% of the membership vote. Most LIRs don't care if the fee is 3KEuro or 10KEuro since it just gets absorbed as a minor cost overhead as passed on to customers. And RIPE knows it. -Hank
If we don't agree..either we should have a look at how certain costs are being made or we should scrap certain activities.
In the end.. we're only talking about 6.25 euro per LIR per day.
Regards, Erik Bais
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Hi Hank,
We do not get much of a say as to how much budget should be applied for regional meetings, consultancy, training courses, RIPE meetings, marketing, r&d, etc. We are given a budget that increases every year and are told to ratify it - of which only 5% of the membership vote. Most LIRs don't care if the fee is 3KEuro or 10KEuro since it just gets absorbed as a minor cost overhead as passed on to customers. And RIPE knows it.
That means that you only need to convince a hand-full to get the votes your way. The majority of the members simply don't care to attend the RIPE meetings and/or vote .. (or both.) So the minority rules. However if you look at the more active players in the community, most of them represent a LIR that has been around for years. And most likely they are in the medium sized LIR or larger. (This is my gut feeling, not sure if that is actually the case..) Especially the smaller LIR members probably don't see RIPE as a vital part of the Regional Internet community and most likely see the extra activities diminished to a system where they would opt-in if they wanted to pay for a system like the Atlas system or training or RIPE meetings. Perhaps it will take some time (over a couple of years) for companies that start to appreciate those kind of services. Having said all this .. what RIPE NCC does with the memberships fee (based on the activity plan) is a separate discussion imho to how we get charged for it. Both should be discussed prior to the GM as they are related and one can't decide what the charging scheme would be if there isn't a consensus on where to spend it on. And I would like to see those split up in 2 separate discussion on the members-discussion list as well. 1) a discussion about what is the cost and do we want to keep the cost allocation as is. For instance, do we keep a 650k Euro loss a year for the RIPE meetings or is a change in operating / cost allocation required ? 2) a discussion about how the charging scheme should look like, regardless of the required budget. Regards, Erik Bais
Hello!
And I would like to see those split up in 2 separate discussion on the members-discussion list as well.
Great idea!
1) a discussion about what is the cost and do we want to keep the cost allocation as is. For instance, do we keep a 650k Euro loss a year for the RIPE meetings or is a change in operating / cost allocation required ?
I see that in budget for 2011 year scheduled expenditure: RIPE meeting - 875 kEUR Training Courses - 383 kEUR Regional Meetings - 263 kEUR, Summary meeting cost: 1521kEUR. Now we have the following situation: each LIR pays defined cost for all of meetings which are being hold during whole year. But actually not every LIR-representative visits such meetings. So there is a question: Maybe there is no need to hold such meetings and trainings while we could run a lot of Webinars. Webinars would not be such cost-based as real meetings, but could be such useful as them. -- Alexey S Ivanov General Director LeaderTelecom Ltd Тел.: 8(495)778-98-51
Hi Alexey,
1) a discussion about what is the cost and do we want to keep the cost allocation as is. For instance, do we keep a 650k Euro loss a year for the RIPE meetings or is a change in operating / cost allocation required ?
I see that in budget for 2011 year scheduled expenditure:
RIPE meeting - 875 kEUR Training Courses - 383 kEUR Regional Meetings - 263 kEUR,
Summary meeting cost: 1521kEUR.
Now we have the following situation: each LIR pays defined cost for all of meetings which are being hold during whole year. But actually not every LIR->representative visits such meetings. So there is a question: Maybe there is no need to hold such meetings and trainings while we could run a lot of Webinars. Webinars would not be such >cost-based as real meetings, but could be such useful as them.
If you look closer to the RIPE meetings for instance, there is also an income to the RIPE meetings. It is about 250k Euro a year if I'm correct. And the RIPE meetings are in fact, open to members and none-members ... Question that I would have : Is it required to hire a boat / hotel etc for a week to accommodate the number to participants including full service (foot and free drinks) in order to have the meetings. And why should the membership fee pay for this 625k Euro yearly loss? I see no shame in using a way of recovering for the open bars .. For instance by the use of tickets / chips. X free drinks per RIPE attendee, additional chips at 2.50 euro per chip. And those chips can be used for food and/or drinks. Do I even dare to ask what the cost is going to be for the temp setup of free wifi in the venue's for only 1 week for about 400 people with each (on average) 3 wifi capable devices each ? On the training courses, it is my personal view that the setup fee should cover a part of the training cost. That means that per new lir there should be a limited number of free seats for each training.. and every additional consumed training seat should be paid for. The companies that have lots of changes in their trained employees, that they should also pay for additional seats used during the trainings. I'm pretty sure that if the board would look at other expenditures in a similar fashion, that there might be a different outcome to what is currently projected. I'm not suggesting to look towards a type of membership that just uses RIPE just for the registration services and a full membership that actually uses the other services, but the current way of operating might could be a bit less 'not for profit' by checking to see if there is an earlier break-even point or a way to avoid a loss on certain activities. Regards, Erik Bais
1) a discussion about what is the cost and do we want to keep the cost allocation as is. For instance, do we keep a 650k Euro loss a year for the RIPE meetings or is a change in operating / cost allocation required ?
I see that in budget for 2011 year scheduled expenditure:
RIPE meeting - 875 kEUR Training Courses - 383 kEUR Regional Meetings - 263 kEUR,
Summary meeting cost: 1521kEUR.
Now we have the following situation: each LIR pays defined cost for all of meetings which are being hold during whole year. But actually not every LIR->representative visits such meetings. So there is a question: Maybe there is no need to hold such meetings and
Hi, Erik! trainings while we could run a lot of Webinars. Webinars would not be such
cost-based as real meetings, but could be such useful as them.
If you look closer to the RIPE meetings for instance, there is also an income to the RIPE meetings. It is about 250k Euro a year if I'm correct. And the RIPE meetings are in fact, open to members and none-members ... Yes. 1521 - 250 = 1271 kEUR. Is it required to hire a boat / hotel etc for a week to accommodate the number to participants including full service (foot and free drinks) in order to have the meetings. And why should the membership fee pay for this 625k Euro yearly loss? I see no shame in using a way of recovering for the open bars .. For instance by the use of tickets / chips. X free drinks per RIPE attendee, additional chips at 2.50 euro per chip. And those chips can be used for food and/or drinks. I sure that if someone need this service - they can pay it. It is not right to distribute expenses to all members. I think each person who will drink and eat can buy what they will. Do I even dare to ask what the cost is going to be for the temp setup of free wifi in the venue's for only 1 week for about 400 people with each (on average) 3 wifi capable devices each ? The same. I suggest to buy it if they need. I cost too much. Why should pay for that member which don't need it. On the training courses, it is my personal view that the setup fee should cover a part of the training cost. That means that per new lir there should be a limited number of free seats for each training.. and every additional consumed training seat should be paid for. The companies that have lots of changes in their trained employees, that they should also pay for additional seats used during the trainings. Why part? Setup fee for trainings should cover all training cost. If I need this service - I'll buy it. We don't have to distribute this expeneses to all LIRs. It is logical. -- Alexey S Ivanov General Director LeaderTelecom Ltd
Hi Alexey,
1) a discussion about what is the cost and do we want to keep the cost allocation as is. For instance, do we keep a 650k Euro loss a year for the RIPE meetings or is a change in operating / cost allocation required ?
Yes. 1521 - 250 = 1271 kEUR.
Is it required to hire a boat / hotel etc for a week to accommodate the number to participants including full service (foot and free drinks) in order to have the meetings. And why should the membership fee pay for this 625k Euro yearly loss? I see no shame in using a way of recovering for the open bars .. For instance by the use of tickets / chips. X free drinks per RIPE attendee, additional chips at 2.50 euro per chip. And those chips can be used for food and/or drinks.
I sure that if someone need this service - they can pay it. It is not right to distribute expenses to all members. I think each person who will drink and eat can buy what they will.
There is some middle ground here .. I do think that the meetings by itself bring value .. and some of the cost will be paid for by the membership as those meetings are also for RIPE NCC the way to interface with its target audience. The people they work for ( yes. That US!) But by for instance internet access could be provided by sponsoring of some of the local LIRS. Via sponsored data-only sim cards to avoid data-roaming or a temp wifi infrastructure. And yes, drinks could be (and perhaps even SHOULD be) paid for by the attendees themselves.
On the training courses, it is my personal view that the setup fee should cover a part of the training cost. That means that per new lir there should be a limited number of free seats for each training.. and every additional consumed training seat should be paid for. The companies that have lots of changes in their trained employees, that they should also pay for additional seats used during the trainings.
Why part? Setup fee for trainings should cover all training cost. If I need this service - I'll buy it. We don't have to distribute this expenses to all LIRs. It is logical.
There is a cultural difference within the region on the part of training. There should be some training that is provided as part of the service (let's say those initial 2 seats.) and the remaining seats should be paid for. Those 2 seats could be covered by the setup cost of a LIR. And if additional seats are required, a cost per day per training is quite easy to calculate. So who would pay for this ? In the end, each LIR would pay for his/her own training. Either you limit it to your own staff within the 2 seats.. or if you have a high rotation of trained people, you will pay a bit more as you consume more seats. One of the reasons why one might want to avoid only paid seats for the training, is that you might end up with nobody from a new LIR going to a training, which will increase the number of tickets and not understanding why someone doesn't get the resources due to the way they requested it. Some people actually have the idea that if they pay their LIR fee, that they buy resources and get whatever they request. The up-front paid seats in the setup fee is to educate the masses in how the process works. Erik PS. Can someone kill the auto-responding ticket systems that are on this list.. I have about 25 outstanding tickets atm because of my blabbering today :)
Hi, Erik!
I sure that if someone need this service - they can pay it. It is not right to distribute expenses to all members. I think each person who will drink and eat can buy what they will.
There is some middle ground here .. I do think that the meetings by itself bring value .. and some of the cost will be paid for by the membership as those meetings are also for RIPE NCC the way to interface with its target audience. The people they work for ( yes. That US!)
Why part? Setup fee for trainings should cover all training cost. If I need
It's very important. In my opinion money from membership should be used for service which need each member - technical infrastructure, developing, support etc. Learning course via internet should be free too. Offline courses should be paid by members which need this service while it need travel expenses, hotels, etc. this service - I'll
buy it.
We don't have to distribute this expenses to all LIRs. It is logical.
There is a cultural difference within the region on the part of training. There should be some training that is provided as part of the service (let's say those initial 2 seats.) and the remaining seats should be paid for. Those 2 seats could be covered by the setup cost of a LIR. And if additional seats are required, a cost per day per training is quite easy to calculate.
One of the reasons why one might want to avoid only paid seats for the
We can give 2 initial seats for free for learning in Amsterdam. And if LIR will have training course in another country - he should paid for this service (travel, visa support, hotels for RIPE people). training,
is that you might end up with nobody from a new LIR going to a training, which will increase the number of tickets and not understanding why someone doesn't get the resources due to the way they requested it.
It was important for IPv4. For IPv6 it doesn't play any role. -- Alexey S Ivanov General Director LeaderTelecom Ltd
Alexey, Ø We can give 2 initial seats for free for learning in Amsterdam. And if LIR will have training course in another country - he should paid for this service (travel, visa support, hotels for RIPE people). I would be completely opposed to this, RIPE has a duty to all European LIR’s and to me the availability of local training is certainly something that should come from the membership fees. In the UK RIPE have recently expanded training to encompass cities away from London, notably in the north of England – something which we, being based in this area, are grateful for. With that said, I would not be averse to a nominal charge for attendance of RIPE meeting to cover costs of the facilities etc. Lunch, and any social activities should ideally be covered via Sponsorship. Chris ________________________________ Knowledge I.T. ‘Unifying Business Technology’ www.knowledgeit.co.uk ________________________________ Knowledge Limited, Company Registration: 1554385 Registered Office: New Century House, Crowther Road, Washington, Tyne & Wear. NE38 0AQ Leeds Office: Viscount Court, Leeds Road, Rothwell, Leeds. LS26 0GR Tel: 0845 142 0020. Fax: 0845 142 0021 E-Mail Disclaimer: This e-mail message is intended to be received only by persons entitled to receive the confidential information it may contain. E-mail messages to clients of Knowledge IT may contain information that is confidential and legally privileged. Please do not read, copy, forward, or store this message unless you are an intended recipient of it. If you have received this message in error, please forward it to the sender and delete it completely from your computer system. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
Chris, I would be completely opposed to this, RIPE has a duty to all European LIR’s and to me the availability of local training is certainly something that should come from the membership fees. In the UK RIPE have recently expanded training to encompass cities away from London, notably in the north of England – something which we, being based in this area, are grateful for. It is very convinient for new LIR, but doesn't need for most LIRs. I sure that it is better use this service only if some LIR need it. RIPE can organise trening in offices in companies. It will be more personal and much more effective It will be very convinient for peolpe who prefer personal learning. But it should be paid service for LIR. -- Alexey S Ivanov General Director LeaderTelecom Ltd
Dear all, It is very easy to say that new LIRS should pay for the RIPE training service since old LIRS have already taken advantage of this service when it was free from RIPE! RIPE trainings are a legacy service which in my humble opinion should not be changed. You should not have to pay to learn about public address management since every new LIR should be able to manage the address space assigned to them as best as they can considering the situation with IPv4. I hope this opinion will be considered in the voting. BR, Markel Markel Stefo IP Core Network Administrator IT Operations and Maintenance Department Plus Communication Sh.A. Rr. “Dëshmorët e 4 Shkurtit”, Tirana, Albania M: +355 (0)664066620 www.plus.al<http://www.plus.al/> [Description: cid:image001.jpg@01CAE79D.360F3B10] This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the named addressee. Please note that disclosing, copying, any form of distribution or taking any illegal action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. Ky e-mail dhe cdo dokument i bashkangjitur me te konsiderohen si konfidenciale dhe te destinuar vetem per perdorimin e individit apo entitetit ligjor te cilit i drejtohen. Nese ju keni marre kete e-mail gabimisht, ju lutemi te njoftoni menjehere derguesin, te ktheni e-mailin tek derguesi dhe te fshini/shkaterroni kete e-mail nga sistemi juaj. Ky komunikim permban informacion konfidencial dhe eshte i destinuar vetem per te adresuarin. Ju njoftojme se kopjimi,cdo forme e shperndarjes apo ndonje veprim tjeter i paligjshem ne lidhje me permbajtjen e ketij informacioni ndalohet rreptesisht. From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of LeaderTelecom Ltd. Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 6:47 PM To: Chris Russell Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Ticket#2011100301002013] Discussion : Cost allocation Chris, I would be completely opposed to this, RIPE has a duty to all European LIR’s and to me the availability of local training is certainly something that should come from the membership fees. In the UK RIPE have recently expanded training to encompass cities away from London, notably in the north of England – something which we, being based in this area, are grateful for. It is very convinient for new LIR, but doesn't need for most LIRs. I sure that it is better use this service only if some LIR need it. RIPE can organise trening in offices in companies. It will be more personal and much more effective It will be very convinient for peolpe who prefer personal learning. But it should be paid service for LIR. -- Alexey S Ivanov General Director LeaderTelecom Ltd
Dear Markel, It is very easy to say that new LIRS should pay for the RIPE training service since old LIRS have already taken advantage of this service when it was free from RIPE! It's realy not easy. I was wondered when we received status of LIR. RIPE great company with good service. Free Meetings, Lerning. It was very helpful for us. I very thanks RIPE and all members for that. But anyway we ready to pay for course when we need. May be you can suggest how can we cut costs without any changing? -- Alexey S Ivanov General Director LeaderTelecom Ltd
I completely agree with Markel on this. Mit freundlichen Grüßen / best regards Franz Bettag Geschäftsführer Bettag Systems UG (haftungsbeschränkt) Ludwigstrasse 45-47 90402, Nürnberg Germany Fon: +49 911 217570 Fax: +49 911 217571 Web: http://www.bett.ag/ Registergericht: Nürnberg, HRB 27088 Geschäftsführer: Franz Bettag On Oct 4, 2011, at 8:50 PM, Markel Stefo wrote:
Dear all,
It is very easy to say that new LIRS should pay for the RIPE training service since old LIRS have already taken advantage of this service when it was free from RIPE! RIPE trainings are a legacy service which in my humble opinion should not be changed. You should not have to pay to learn about public address management since every new LIR should be able to manage the address space assigned to them as best as they can considering the situation with IPv4. I hope this opinion will be considered in the voting.
BR, Markel
Markel Stefo IP Core Network Administrator IT Operations and Maintenance Department
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Ky e-mail dhe cdo dokument i bashkangjitur me te konsiderohen si konfidenciale dhe te destinuar vetem per perdorimin e individit apo entitetit ligjor te cilit i drejtohen. Nese ju keni marre kete e-mail gabimisht, ju lutemi te njoftoni menjehere derguesin, te ktheni e-mailin tek derguesi dhe te fshini/shkaterroni kete e-mail nga sistemi juaj. Ky komunikim permban informacion konfidencial dhe eshte i destinuar vetem per te adresuarin. Ju njoftojme se kopjimi,cdo forme e shperndarjes apo ndonje veprim tjeter i paligjshem ne lidhje me permbajtjen e ketij informacioni ndalohet rreptesisht.
From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of LeaderTelecom Ltd. Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 6:47 PM To: Chris Russell Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Ticket#2011100301002013] Discussion : Cost allocation
Chris,
I would be completely opposed to this, RIPE has a duty to all European LIR’s and to me the availability of local training is certainly something that should come from the membership fees. In the UK RIPE have recently expanded training to encompass cities away from London, notably in the north of England – something which we, being based in this area, are grateful for.
It is very convinient for new LIR, but doesn't need for most LIRs. I sure that it is better use this service only if some LIR need it. RIPE can organise trening in offices in companies. It will be more personal and much more effective It will be very convinient for peolpe who prefer personal learning. But it should be paid service for LIR.
-- Alexey S Ivanov General Director LeaderTelecom Ltd
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On 3 okt 2011, at 17:31, Erik Bais wrote:
1) a discussion about what is the cost and do we want to keep the cost allocation as is. For instance, do we keep a 650k Euro loss a year for the RIPE meetings or is a change in operating / cost allocation required ?
Yes. 1521 - 250 = 1271 kEUR.
Is it required to hire a boat / hotel etc for a week to accommodate the number to participants including full service (foot and free drinks) in order to have the meetings. And why should the membership fee pay for this 625k Euro yearly loss? I see no shame in using a way of recovering for the open bars .. For instance by the use of tickets / chips. X free drinks per RIPE attendee, additional chips at 2.50 euro per chip. And those chips can be used for food and/or drinks.
I sure that if someone need this service - they can pay it. It is not right to distribute expenses to all members. I think each person who will drink and eat can buy what they will.
There is some middle ground here .. I do think that the meetings by itself bring value .. and some of the cost will be paid for by the membership as those meetings are also for RIPE NCC the way to interface with its target audience. The people they work for ( yes. That US!)
But by for instance internet access could be provided by sponsoring of some of the local LIRS. Via sponsored data-only sim cards to avoid data-roaming or a temp wifi infrastructure. And yes, drinks could be (and perhaps even SHOULD be) paid for by the attendees themselves.
As someone who has sponsored several of the socials at RIPE meetings, I just wanted to point out that they are already sponsored and that the sponsorship opportunities tend to be pretty expensive. Admittedly these are for socials, and that one option would be to have sponsorship options for the meetings itself instead. The problem with that is that as a sponsor I then want to make sure I get return on the money in terms of exposure to the attendees instead. So there is a tradeoff. That said I am not sure that the subsidized meeting costs is what I would make members pay for first…see below.
On the training courses, it is my personal view that the setup fee should cover a part of the training cost. That means that per new lir there should be a limited number of free seats for each training.. and every additional consumed training seat should be paid for. The companies that have lots of changes in their trained employees, that they should also pay for additional seats used during the trainings.
Why part? Setup fee for trainings should cover all training cost. If I need this service - I'll buy it. We don't have to distribute this expenses to all LIRs. It is logical.
There is a cultural difference within the region on the part of training. There should be some training that is provided as part of the service (let's say those initial 2 seats.) and the remaining seats should be paid for. Those 2 seats could be covered by the setup cost of a LIR. And if additional seats are required, a cost per day per training is quite easy to calculate.
So who would pay for this ? In the end, each LIR would pay for his/her own training. Either you limit it to your own staff within the 2 seats.. or if you have a high rotation of trained people, you will pay a bit more as you consume more seats.
One of the reasons why one might want to avoid only paid seats for the training, is that you might end up with nobody from a new LIR going to a training, which will increase the number of tickets and not understanding why someone doesn't get the resources due to the way they requested it. Some people actually have the idea that if they pay their LIR fee, that they buy resources and get whatever they request. The up-front paid seats in the setup fee is to educate the masses in how the process works.
From what I remember of the results of the membership surveys, training and meetings have been asked for as RIPE activities so this is actually doing what the membership asked for. Part of the problem with the RIPE NCC activity plan is that we actually don't' know much about what we are paying for. Meetings and trainings are broken out so therefor are easy to comment on. DNSMON, RIS, TTM, RIPE Labs, etc are activities where we do not see individual budgets or contributions from the users. Many of these projects are very long running or very new but where there is little discussion on the activity plans on wether the community want it or not. I am all for transparency and I think that a better evaluation process is needed and better reporting on the activities in the activity plan. Then again, when RIPE NCC does the membership surveys - there tend to be surprisingly little feedback. Even on this list there are very, very, very few who voice an opinion. Best regards, - kurtis - --- Kurt Erik Lindqvist, CEO kurtis@netnod.se, Direct: +46-8-562 860 11, Switch: +46-8-562 860 00 Franzéngatan 5 | SE-112 51 Stockholm | Sweden
At 08:47 04/10/2011 +0200, Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote:
That said I am not sure that the subsidized meeting costs is what I would make members pay for first see below.
RIPE often sends out extensive surveys to all the LIRs. It would be nice if the next survey were to ask questions like "I am in favor of subsidized meeting costs". This way, if the majority vote in favor then the meetings should be subsidized.
So who would pay for this ? In the end, each LIR would pay for his/her own training. Either you limit it to your own staff within the 2 seats.. or if you have a high rotation of trained people, you will pay a bit more as you consume more seats.
Next survey questions: "I am in favor of RIPE funding costs for regional training sessions" or "LIRs should totally fund all costs of their training sessions with RIPE"
One of the reasons why one might want to avoid only paid seats for the
Some people actually have the idea that if they pay their LIR fee, that
training, is that you might end up with nobody from a new LIR going to a training, which will increase the number of tickets and not understanding why someone doesn't get the resources due to the way they requested it. they buy resources and get whatever they request. The up-front paid seats in the setup fee is to educate the masses in how the process works.
From what I remember of the results of the membership surveys, training and meetings have been asked for as RIPE activities so this is actually doing what the membership asked for.
If I remember correctly, the surveys never worded the questions in regards to costs but rather "I am in favor of RIPE doing regional training" or "I am in favor of RIPE doing IP research". This needs to corrected for the next survey.
Part of the problem with the RIPE NCC activity plan is that we actually don't' know much about what we are paying for. Meetings and trainings are broken out so therefor are easy to comment on. DNSMON, RIS, TTM, RIPE Labs, etc are activities where we do not see individual budgets or contributions from the users. Many of these projects are very long running or very new but where there is little discussion on the activity plans on wether the community want it or not.
+1. How many people are doing research (RIPE Labs)? What is the budget? Who decides what is needed? Has the membership asked (and paid for) for RIPEstat Mobile or Data Repository ? How many LIRs use these resources? If 100 LIRs use the resource - it is worth the investment. If 15 use the resource - it should be terminated.
I am all for transparency and I think that a better evaluation process is needed and better reporting on the activities in the activity plan. Then again, when RIPE NCC does the membership surveys - there tend to be surprisingly little feedback. Even on this list there are very, very, very few who voice an opinion.
Transparency = +1. That means reports and excels produced by RIPE. Regards, Hank
Best regards,
- kurtis -
--- Kurt Erik Lindqvist, CEO kurtis@netnod.se, Direct: +46-8-562 860 11, Switch: +46-8-562 860 00 Franzéngatan 5 | SE-112 51 Stockholm | Sweden
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Sorry, but i feel the need to jump in...
Now we have the following situation: each LIR pays defined cost for all of meetings which are being hold during whole year. But actually not every LIR->representative visits such meetings.
that's up to the LIR to partecipate or not, and take advantage of it... still, the whole yearly fee of an LIR won't perhaps pay even of couple of days of support by some (i would say most) of the people that partecipate in the Ripe meeting and with their effort help developing the policies and sort out the issues which involve our business.. I'm i the only one who feels weird to hear the proposal of "let them pay if they want to eat and drink" when in the end they are volunteering their work for us, and perhaps without them our business, if not the Internet as we know, wouldn't even exits? doh! How much does the ripe meetings and training costs account in the whole budget... 10% more or less? Are you really saying that something like 20-30-40 euros per MONTH is too much to support the activities of the people that in one way or the other are enabling your whole business to exist!? C'mon.. we should actually grab them a beer, not thinking about asking them to pay it for themselves... PS: Note, anyone who attendend a Ripe meeting knows, the Ripe meeting is not a "free food, drink and a vacation" for everyone ... each one pays for the travel, accomodation AND food (yes, lunch may be free, you got free coffe breaks, but dinner is up to you, except the Ripe dinner, which btw is not free either). Please... Ricky
hi, Am 03.10.2011 12:49, schrieb Riccardo Losselli:
How much does the ripe meetings and training costs account in the whole budget... 10% more or less?
Personnel 65,3% Travel 4,7% Meeting 3,9% Training 2,2% Regional Meeting 1,6% If you will count also travel costs, all meetings and training you will have 12,4% of the budget (based on Q1-Q3/2010). Personnel will be 5 times more of budget costs !!! I guess we don't need to talk about the meetings because this costs are the smallest of all. Sure training could be less with webinar but will be work too and the costs will go into other budget category. Better questions are : Does anybody know how much people will working @ RIPE NCC ?? What income they will have per year ?? Because we guess that this is the "big player" to decrease the whole budget costs ;) Best regards, Alexander Schoberl SPEEDNIC S.R.L.
Hello, Dne 3.10.2011 19:00, SPEEDNIC S.R.L. - RIPE Handling napsal(a):
hi,
Am 03.10.2011 12:49, schrieb Riccardo Losselli:
How much does the ripe meetings and training costs account in the whole budget... 10% more or less?
Personnel 65,3% Travel 4,7% Meeting 3,9% Training 2,2% Regional Meeting 1,6%
If you will count also travel costs, all meetings and training you will have 12,4% of the budget (based on Q1-Q3/2010). Personnel will be 5 times more of budget costs !!!
I guess we don't need to talk about the meetings because this costs are the smallest of all. Sure training could be less with webinar but will be work too and the costs will go into other budget category.
Better questions are : Does anybody know how much people will working @ RIPE NCC ?? What income they will have per year ?? Because we guess that this is the "big player" to decrease the whole budget costs ;)
- yes, I agree, nowadays IT reduce expenditures and RIPE should exemplify this in action :-) e.g. in 2007 there was 7ME and in 2010 was above 9ME despite IT cost decrease ... Regards, Roman Heczko - SilesNet Czech Republic
Best regards, Alexander Schoberl SPEEDNIC S.R.L.
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Dear Colleagues, Sorry for my letter. Could you help me please. I need not get these messages. Thanks in advance! BR Sergey. 03.10.2011, в 20:48, "Roman Heczko" <heczko@silesnet.cz> написал(а):
Hello,
Dne 3.10.2011 19:00, SPEEDNIC S.R.L. - RIPE Handling napsal(a):
hi,
Am 03.10.2011 12:49, schrieb Riccardo Losselli:
How much does the ripe meetings and training costs account in the whole budget... 10% more or less?
Personnel 65,3% Travel 4,7% Meeting 3,9% Training 2,2% Regional Meeting 1,6%
If you will count also travel costs, all meetings and training you will have 12,4% of the budget (based on Q1-Q3/2010). Personnel will be 5 times more of budget costs !!!
I guess we don't need to talk about the meetings because this costs are the smallest of all. Sure training could be less with webinar but will be work too and the costs will go into other budget category.
Better questions are : Does anybody know how much people will working @ RIPE NCC ?? What income they will have per year ?? Because we guess that this is the "big player" to decrease the whole budget costs ;)
- yes, I agree, nowadays IT reduce expenditures and RIPE should exemplify this in action :-) e.g. in 2007 there was 7ME and in 2010 was above 9ME despite IT cost decrease ...
Regards, Roman Heczko - SilesNet Czech Republic
Best regards, Alexander Schoberl SPEEDNIC S.R.L.
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Hi!
Personnel 65,3% Travel 4,7% Meeting 3,9% Training 2,2% Regional Meeting 1,6%
If you will count also travel costs, all meetings and training you will have 12,4% of the budget (based on Q1-Q3/2010). Personnel will be 5 times more of budget costs !!!
It is typical for IT companies. It is very important to have professional staff. As a result we have to pay good money for a good job. But we can cut costs I think about 1000 kEUR per year without travel, meeting and offline trainings. I think it is very important for next 2-3 years while we have global problems in economic. -- Alexey S Ivanov General Director LeaderTelecom Ltd.
Hi, Am 03.10.2011 15:58, schrieb LeaderTelecom Ltd.:
Hi!
Personnel 65,3% Travel 4,7% Meeting 3,9% Training 2,2% Regional Meeting 1,6%
If you will count also travel costs, all meetings and training you will have 12,4% of the budget (based on Q1-Q3/2010). Personnel will be 5 times more of budget costs !!!
It is typical for IT companies. It is very important to have professional staff. As a result we have to pay good money for a good job.
Sure but we are talking about 10 mEUR. I don't know the earnings but if we say they will have 50k/year + double costs for taxes/insurance/etc. one person will cost 100k/year. So we can speak about 100 workers. Is it true ?? For my mind it is important to know because often the "lower professional" will earn 25k/year and some "manager/positions" will earn 250k/year. Maybe it is more transparency but better to know which scheme RIPE NCC will have for their staff ;)
But we can cut costs I think about 1000 kEUR per year without travel, meeting and offline trainings. I think it is very important for next 2-3 years while we have global problems in economic.
You can be sure the "virtual global problems" will still be with us for many years up to any goverments will do a lot of things but I guess it will never be done. Best regards, Alexander Schoberl SPEEDNIC S.R.L.
On Mon, Oct 03, 2011 at 05:49:30PM +0200, Riccardo Losselli wrote:
I'm i the only one who feels weird to hear the proposal of "let them pay if they want to eat and drink" when in the end they are volunteering their work for us, and perhaps without them our business, if not the Internet as we know, wouldn't even exits? doh!
The food/drink issue is a red herring anyway, IMO. As far as I remember, every social event I've been at has always been sponsored by some company or the other. AFAIK that has not changed since I last went to a meeting. Lunch/coffee is most likely part of the conference bundles that hotels sell. rgds, Sascha Luck
On 03/10/2011 15:00, Erik Bais wrote:
Hi Alexey,
If you look closer to the RIPE meetings for instance, there is also an income to the RIPE meetings. It is about 250k Euro a year if I'm correct. And the RIPE meetings are in fact, open to members and none-members ...
Question that I would have :
Is it required to hire a boat / hotel etc for a week to accommodate the number to participants including full service (foot and free drinks) in order to have the meetings. And why should the membership fee pay for this 625k Euro yearly loss? The evening events are all sponsored and the dinner is sponsored and tickets are charged for.
Having said that, yes, the RIPE meeting makes a loss and has done for many years. We are very happy to take an action to reduce the cost to the membership of the RIPE meeting either by fully charging for the cost (in which case it will roughly double the ticket cost), or by trying to reduce costs. Reducing costs will probably mean using a dedicated conference venue far from hotels (we've done a lot of work on this over the years), but if members want this then we are very happy to consider it.
I see no shame in using a way of recovering for the open bars .. For instance by the use of tickets / chips. X free drinks per RIPE attendee, additional chips at 2.50 euro per chip. And those chips can be used for food and/or drinks. Well, as I say. All bars are actually fully paid for by sponsors.
Do I even dare to ask what the cost is going to be for the temp setup of free wifi in the venue's for only 1 week for about 400 people with each (on average) 3 wifi capable devices each ? The cost of setting up wifi is a long ago sunk cost. We've got all the kit and it doesn't get significantly upgraded.
On the training courses, it is my personal view that the setup fee should cover a part of the training cost. That means that per new lir there should be a limited number of free seats for each training.. and every additional consumed training seat should be paid for. The companies that have lots of changes in their trained employees, that they should also pay for additional seats used during the trainings. We've done this in the past, and the members have objected. We can easily go back to this. It wouldn't make a significant difference in costs, but we can certainly do it.
I'm pretty sure that if the board would look at other expenditures in a similar fashion, that there might be a different outcome to what is currently projected. We do in fact examine costs extensively. By far the major cost in the budget is personnel and we've cut the number of FTEs this year.
I'm not suggesting to look towards a type of membership that just uses RIPE just for the registration services and a full membership that actually uses the other services, but the current way of operating might could be a bit less 'not for profit' by checking to see if there is an earlier break-even point or a way to avoid a loss on certain activities.
Nigel
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I think webinars are a great idea. It lets all the members go back and watch it as much as needed. Plus it would be great to have an expanded library of webinar training videos. On 10/3/2011 6:38 AM, LeaderTelecom Ltd. wrote:
Hello!
And I would like to see those split up in 2 separate discussion on the members-discussion list as well.
Great idea!
1) a discussion about what is the cost and do we want to keep the cost allocation as is. For instance, do we keep a 650k Euro loss a year for the RIPE meetings or is a change in operating / cost allocation required ?
I see that in budget for 2011 year scheduled expenditure:
RIPE meeting - 875 kEUR Training Courses - 383 kEUR Regional Meetings - 263 kEUR,
Summary meeting cost: 1521kEUR.
Now we have the following situation: each LIR pays defined cost for all of meetings which are being hold during whole year. But actually not every LIR-representative visits such meetings. So there is a question: *Maybe there is no need to hold such meetings and trainings while we could run a lot of Webinars.* Webinars would not be such cost-based as real meetings, but could be such useful as them.
--
Alexey S Ivanov General Director LeaderTelecom Ltd
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Hi Jared, The RIPE meetings are mostly taped and broadcasted online already ... The benefit of having the RIPE meetings in person is that people actually have a better interaction than with a webinar.
I think webinars are a great idea. It lets all the members go back and watch it as much as needed. Plus it would be great to have an expanded library of webinar training videos.
It is the option of full-duplex communication (the discussion) that adds value where you won't have that with a webinar is my experience. Replacing the actual meeting itself 100% by a webinar is contra productive I think. Erik
I agree that meeting can bring more value to their attendants than webinar. But in my opinion they can be fully paid by their participants. On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Erik Bais <erik@bais.name> wrote:
Hi Jared,
The RIPE meetings are mostly taped and broadcasted online already ...
The benefit of having the RIPE meetings in person is that people actually have a better interaction than with a webinar.
I think webinars are a great idea. It lets all the members go back and watch it as much as needed. Plus it would be great to have an expanded library of webinar training videos.
It is the option of full-duplex communication (the discussion) that adds value where you won't have that with a webinar is my experience.
Replacing the actual meeting itself 100% by a webinar is contra productive I think.
Erik
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I agree that meeting can bring more value to their attendants than webinar. But in my opinion they can be fully paid by their participants.
Yes! In general I mean that meetings should be paid by people who will go to this meetings, but I believe that in this case cost per person of meeting will rapidly increase. And in this case we can use webinars. I often use webinars IBM, Symantec and etc and I think that it is very convenient. Most of questions we can solve faster using internet communications while meetings rarely performed. It is impossible to wait half year for meeting. -- Alexey S Ivanov General Director LeaderTelecom Ltd.
Hi, On Mon, 2011-10-03 at 16:42 +0200, Erik Bais wrote:
The benefit of having the RIPE meetings in person is that people actually have a better interaction than with a webinar.
I think webinars are a great idea. It lets all the members go back and watch it as much as needed. Plus it would be great to have an expanded library of webinar training videos.
It is the option of full-duplex communication (the discussion) that adds value where you won't have that with a webinar is my experience.
Replacing the actual meeting itself 100% by a webinar is contra productive I think.
Even if I have never attended a RIPE meeting (for various reasons), I completely agree with that. Meetings are, imho, mostly a social event. There would be less interest in simple webinars. Regards, -- Clément Cavadore Yacast Media
Hi, On Mon, Oct 03, 2011 at 04:42:50PM +0200, Erik Bais wrote:
The RIPE meetings are mostly taped and broadcasted online already ... The benefit of having the RIPE meetings in person is that people actually have a better interaction than with a webinar.
Indeed. In fact, I'd like to see more of the membership/community encouraged to come to RIPE meetings because, as much as has changed, "The Internet" is still a cooperative effort on the IP layer. I'd think though, that, if the cost of holding meetings in faraway places is more than inconsiderable, it may be worth thinking about holding all of them in Amsterdam - the NCC is there and it is easily reached from most places. What worries me more about the continuing budget increases, is that money is spent on an ever increasing range of activities that, strictly speaking, are not relevant to the RIR function. I will probably comment more on that once I've actually seen the proposed budget 2012. In general, given that probably every member is feeling the current economic crisis and the NCC budget is rising steadily as if nothing had happened, something will have to give eventually... rgds, Sascha Luck
Hi all,
In general, given that probably every member is feeling the current economic crisis and the NCC budget is rising steadily as if nothing had happened, something will have to give eventually...
Is it really that big a deal? We are a fairly small LIR, but even in our yearly spendings, RIPE membership fees are one of the smaller factors. Even in the current climate, I'd probably look at other possibilities to save money before thinking about where I can squeeze 500 bucks a year from my RIPE membership. I think the meeting and trainings offered by RIPE shouldn't be seen with the attitude of "I never used it, so you should pay for it". IMHO, the trainings (of which I never could attend one due to lack of a travel budget) and the meetings (ditto) serve a very important purpose for the community: They make it easier for new LIRs to receive the know-how necessary to run their services smoothly. By learning the ropes, they save all the other LIRs time and subsequently, money. Why? Because, for instance, in a largely saturated market like colo/hosting/isp stuff, you are constantly interacting with "the old provider" and "the new provider". And it's a real PITA if you have to tell those guys what an inetnum object is and how to send a PGP signed message to auto-dbm while you are actually *losing a customer* to them. I bet everyone of you can find a dozen similar examples. That's why I'll agree to pay for trainings I never use - because I can be fairly certain I'll benefit indirectly. And to the people who want RIPE to cut costs by not offering free Wi-fi at their events (etc.): Please tell me that was a joke. In my book that's like not offering complimentary seats during a train ride. Just my two cents, --ck -- Filoo GmbH Christopher Kunz, Geschäftsführer Web: http://www.filoo.de/ E-Mail: chris@filoo.de Tel.: (+49) 0 52 48 / 1 89 84 -11 Fax: (+49) 0 52 48 / 1 89 84 -20 Please sign & encrypt mail wherever possible, my key: C882 8ED1 7DD1 9011 C088 EA50 5CFA 2EEB 397A CAC1 Moltkestraße 25a 33330 Gütersloh, Germany HRB4355, AG Gütersloh Geschäftsführer: S.Grewing, J.Rehpöhler, C.Kunz Folgen Sie uns auf Twitter: http://twitter.com/filoogmbh
Hi, On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 10:57:49PM +0200, Christopher Kunz wrote:
I think the meeting and trainings offered by RIPE shouldn't be seen with the attitude of "I never used it, so you should pay for it". IMHO, the trainings (of which I never could attend one due to lack of a travel budget) and the meetings (ditto) serve a very important purpose for the community: They make it easier for new LIRs to receive the know-how necessary to run their services smoothly. By learning the ropes, they save all the other LIRs time and subsequently, money.
Training and meetings are two things I'd never argue for the cutting of. Centralising training is also not really an option as the RIPE membership exceeds well beyond the borders of the EU and I do not expect inbound travel to get any easier for non-EU residents due to political mood swings within the EU. Since the meetings are usuall held in EU cities anyway, I'd argue for centralising them in NL *if* it would save a significant amount of money.
That's why I'll agree to pay for trainings I never use - because I can be fairly certain I'll benefit indirectly.
Fully agree. And a suggestion to the NCC: Maybe incorporating a tutorial on subscribing to RIPE mailing lists into the LIR training would be a good idea ;)
And to the people who want RIPE to cut costs by not offering free Wi-fi at their events (etc.): Please tell me that was a joke. In my book that's like not offering complimentary seats during a train ride.
I blame Ryanair and Michael O'Leary for bringing that attitude into the world... cheers, Sascha Luck
Hi Shooting at the meeting cost and training cost is an easy target, but in my opinion slightly silly. RIPE NCC does live in the same economical reality as the rest of us. They can implement bugdet cuts like everyone else, so look hard at your costs and come up with cost-saving measure and let your members vote on it like they usually do at the RIPE meeting. Mvh stj. TDC AS Mobile: + 47 40 00 02 94 Direct: + 47 38 05 81 44 Fax : + 47 38 05 81 47 Ægirsv 10 N-4632 Kristiansand, Norway mailto:svein.tjemsland@tdc.no http://www.tdc.no -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Sascha Luck Sent: 4. oktober 2011 23:10 To: Christopher Kunz Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Proposed 2012 Charging scheme, Board comments Hi, On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 10:57:49PM +0200, Christopher Kunz wrote:
I think the meeting and trainings offered by RIPE shouldn't be seen with the attitude of "I never used it, so you should pay for it". IMHO, the trainings (of which I never could attend one due to lack of a travel budget) and the meetings (ditto) serve a very important purpose for the community: They make it easier for new LIRs to receive the know-how necessary to run their services smoothly. By learning the ropes, they save all the other LIRs time and subsequently, money.
Training and meetings are two things I'd never argue for the cutting of. Centralising training is also not really an option as the RIPE membership exceeds well beyond the borders of the EU and I do not expect inbound travel to get any easier for non-EU residents due to political mood swings within the EU. Since the meetings are usuall held in EU cities anyway, I'd argue for centralising them in NL *if* it would save a significant amount of money.
That's why I'll agree to pay for trainings I never use - because I can be fairly certain I'll benefit indirectly.
Fully agree. And a suggestion to the NCC: Maybe incorporating a tutorial on subscribing to RIPE mailing lists into the LIR training would be a good idea ;)
And to the people who want RIPE to cut costs by not offering free Wi-fi at their events (etc.): Please tell me that was a joke. In my book that's like not offering complimentary seats during a train ride.
I blame Ryanair and Michael O'Leary for bringing that attitude into the world... cheers, Sascha Luck ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Hi, Fully agree. Best regards, Robert Robert Güntensperger Swisscom (Schweiz) AG Product IT Access Plattforms |-----Original Message----- |From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss- |bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of MB Registryno |Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 11:56 AM |Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net |Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Proposed 2012 Charging scheme, Board |comments | |Hi | |Shooting at the meeting cost and training cost is an easy target, but in |my opinion slightly silly. | |RIPE NCC does live in the same economical reality as the rest of us. | |They can implement bugdet cuts like everyone else, so look hard at your |costs and come up with cost-saving measure and let your members vote on |it like they usually do at the RIPE meeting. | |Mvh | |stj. | |TDC AS |Mobile: + 47 40 00 02 94 |Direct: + 47 38 05 81 44 |Fax : + 47 38 05 81 47 |Ægirsv 10 |N-4632 Kristiansand, Norway |mailto:svein.tjemsland@tdc.no |http://www.tdc.no |-----Original Message----- |From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss- |bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Sascha Luck |Sent: 4. oktober 2011 23:10 |To: Christopher Kunz |Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net |Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Proposed 2012 Charging scheme, Board |comments | |Hi, | |On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 10:57:49PM +0200, Christopher Kunz wrote: |>I think the meeting and trainings offered by RIPE shouldn't be seen |with |>the attitude of "I never used it, so you should pay for it". IMHO, the |>trainings (of which I never could attend one due to lack of a travel |>budget) and the meetings (ditto) serve a very important purpose for the |>community: They make it easier for new LIRs to receive the know-how |>necessary to run their services smoothly. By learning the ropes, they |>save all the other LIRs time and subsequently, money. | |Training and meetings are two things I'd never argue for the cutting of. |Centralising training is also not really an option as the RIPE |membership exceeds well beyond the borders of the EU and I do not expect |inbound travel to get any easier for non-EU residents due to political |mood swings within the EU. |Since the meetings are usuall held in EU cities anyway, I'd argue for |centralising them in NL *if* it would save a significant amount of |money. | |>That's why I'll agree to pay for trainings I never use - because I can |>be fairly certain I'll benefit indirectly. | |Fully agree. And a suggestion to the NCC: Maybe incorporating a tutorial |on subscribing to RIPE mailing lists into the LIR training would be a |good |idea ;) | |>And to the people who want RIPE to cut costs by not offering free Wi-fi |>at their events (etc.): Please tell me that was a joke. In my book |>that's like not offering complimentary seats during a train ride. | |I blame Ryanair and Michael O'Leary for bringing that attitude into the |world... | |cheers, |Sascha Luck | |---- |If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss |mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the |general page: |https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view | |Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From |here, you can add or remove addresses. | |---- |If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss |mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the |general page: |https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view | |Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From |here, you can add or remove addresses.
Saving 2-3% isn't going to cut it really .. so cutting training completely wouldn't help - and I think that would also be an exceptionally bad idea. Training is good, we need more of it, it needs to be visible online so it can be used internally and without necessarily the need to send someone out for 2 days when the course could be run internally or at least pre-studied before candidates turn up. With overheads growing from €10m to €15m in 5 years, this continued pattern of growth seems pretty unsustainable (unless we are prepared to see fees continue to increase every year by 10-20%?) and I think we need to look at where that growth in spend has really come from, and why/how .. plus what can be done to reduce the overheads down to more sensible levels if not at least to the 2007-2008 levels Meetings are good, and need to be more readily accessible to the membership not less ... we need better / more improved resources, and to ensure that if we include remote participation that we stick to schedules and deadlines defined (no starting early so joiners miss vital presentations or proposals). Another question which may need more clearly explaining ... What is RIPE doing for us now in 2011 that it wasn't doing for us in 2007 which justifies a 50% increase in budget over that time? Are all of these functions / services a truly valuable commitment of membership funds? Compare the value / services RIPE offers to those that say ARIN offer and what are the differences in membership fees between these two organisations? RIPE seems to be charging for resources (might only be €50 .. although who knows it could be €250 in 5 years time) ... is this a valid method of charging with hindsight? Are there yet better ways of doing all of this? Perhaps every member should pay 1c per IP address assigned (might need to be more than 1c as a /20 would cost €41/year but you get the point)? That may go against the RIPE model of charging for IP addresses, but it is in fact what happens regardless as a resource cost is a resource cost, no matter how you describe it. I should note I am looking at all of this purely from a business perspective (almost as an accountant) trying to understand why we've gone from €10m to €15m in 5 years (50% increase) with only a 25% increase in the size of the membership base over the same period of time. It would also be interesting to see a report on the volume of tickets created over the same period of time and any metrics on the number of assignments and increases in workload / etc Jon On 5 Oct 2011, at 10:55, MB Registryno wrote:
Hi
Shooting at the meeting cost and training cost is an easy target, but in my opinion slightly silly.
RIPE NCC does live in the same economical reality as the rest of us.
They can implement bugdet cuts like everyone else, so look hard at your costs and come up with cost-saving measure and let your members vote on it like they usually do at the RIPE meeting.
Mvh
stj.
TDC AS Mobile: + 47 40 00 02 94 Direct: + 47 38 05 81 44 Fax : + 47 38 05 81 47 Ægirsv 10 N-4632 Kristiansand, Norway mailto:svein.tjemsland@tdc.no http://www.tdc.no -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Sascha Luck Sent: 4. oktober 2011 23:10 To: Christopher Kunz Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Proposed 2012 Charging scheme, Board comments
Hi,
On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 10:57:49PM +0200, Christopher Kunz wrote:
I think the meeting and trainings offered by RIPE shouldn't be seen with the attitude of "I never used it, so you should pay for it". IMHO, the trainings (of which I never could attend one due to lack of a travel budget) and the meetings (ditto) serve a very important purpose for the community: They make it easier for new LIRs to receive the know-how necessary to run their services smoothly. By learning the ropes, they save all the other LIRs time and subsequently, money.
Training and meetings are two things I'd never argue for the cutting of. Centralising training is also not really an option as the RIPE membership exceeds well beyond the borders of the EU and I do not expect inbound travel to get any easier for non-EU residents due to political mood swings within the EU. Since the meetings are usuall held in EU cities anyway, I'd argue for centralising them in NL *if* it would save a significant amount of money.
That's why I'll agree to pay for trainings I never use - because I can be fairly certain I'll benefit indirectly.
Fully agree. And a suggestion to the NCC: Maybe incorporating a tutorial on subscribing to RIPE mailing lists into the LIR training would be a good idea ;)
And to the people who want RIPE to cut costs by not offering free Wi-fi at their events (etc.): Please tell me that was a joke. In my book that's like not offering complimentary seats during a train ride.
I blame Ryanair and Michael O'Leary for bringing that attitude into the world...
cheers, Sascha Luck
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
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Hi, On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 11:36:07AM +0000, Jon Morby wrote:
With overheads growing from ?10m to ?15m in 5 years, this continued pattern of growth seems pretty unsustainable (unless we are prepared to see fees continue to increase every year by 10-20%?) and I think we need to look at where that growth in spend has really come from, and why/how .. plus what can be done to reduce the overheads down to more sensible levels if not at least to the 2007-2008 levels
I hope folks are aware that the number of *LIR*s has also grown in similar dimensions. Which is why the fees actually went down, not up, over the last few years. [..]
Another question which may need more clearly explaining ... What is RIPE doing for us now in 2011 that it wasn't doing for us in 2007 which justifies a 50% increase in budget over that time? Are all of these functions / services a truly valuable commitment of membership funds?
There's a lot more of "us" these days. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi all, now the budget 2012 is online on RIPE website :) The incoming fee will be higher as I have calculated with 19M EUR. But why there are no more any "End User Fees" Incoming for 2012 ?? All will be billed through LIR's ?? I don't think that this will be true ;) One big point is that the personnel expenses will growing up by 6,3% !?!?! I don't guess that each one will get more money at this amount. But why we need that high increase - more personnel maybe - but why ?? The work at RIPE will be the same as before without needing more personnel because LIR can be waiting without problem like one day longer for some requests too - isn't it ? General Operating Expenses +10,8% ??? It is a joke not ? Best regards, Alexander Schoberl SPEEDNIC S.R.L.
At 12:19 05/10/2011 -0300, SPEEDNIC S.R.L. - RIPE Handling wrote:
One big point is that the personnel expenses will growing up by 6,3% !?!?! I don't guess that each one will get more money at this amount. But why we need that high increase - more personnel maybe - but why ?? The work at RIPE will be the same as before without needing more personnel because LIR can be waiting without problem like one day longer for some requests too - isn't it ?
General Operating Expenses +10,8% ??? It is a joke not ?
Ask yourself, why no one from RIPE has over the past week added to the discussion here with the reasons and justifications for why they need to increase their budget. -Hank
Best regards, Alexander Schoberl SPEEDNIC S.R.L.
good point, sir. :) On 10/6/11 10:30 , Hank Nussbacher wrote:
At 12:19 05/10/2011 -0300, SPEEDNIC S.R.L. - RIPE Handling wrote:
One big point is that the personnel expenses will growing up by 6,3% !?!?! I don't guess that each one will get more money at this amount. But why we need that high increase - more personnel maybe - but why ?? The work at RIPE will be the same as before without needing more personnel because LIR can be waiting without problem like one day longer for some requests too - isn't it ?
General Operating Expenses +10,8% ??? It is a joke not ? Ask yourself, why no one from RIPE has over the past week added to the discussion here with the reasons and justifications for why they need to increase their budget.
-Hank
Best regards, Alexander Schoberl SPEEDNIC S.R.L.
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On 06/10/2011 08:30, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
Ask yourself, why no one from RIPE has over the past week added to the discussion here with the reasons and justifications for why they need to increase their budget.
Well, speaking for myself, I have a day job. It was end of month and I was doing my end of month reporting. I'm now at NANOG with a bit of spare time to read the mailing lists. The board doesn't get paid... don't forget, we do this voluntarily, often in our own time. Nigel
And on my side I am happy to monitor the members' discussion and see what it is the members want and then to bring it up internally. Rest assured Hank that we will consider all concerns where applicable and as much as possible within the constraints we have. Sent via BlackBerry® from GCCIX -----Original Message----- From: Nigel Titley <nigel@titley.com> Sender: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:39:10 To: <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012 On 06/10/2011 08:30, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
Ask yourself, why no one from RIPE has over the past week added to the discussion here with the reasons and justifications for why they need to increase their budget.
Well, speaking for myself, I have a day job. It was end of month and I was doing my end of month reporting. I'm now at NANOG with a bit of spare time to read the mailing lists. The board doesn't get paid... don't forget, we do this voluntarily, often in our own time. Nigel ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
On 10/10/2011 22:50, Fahad AlShirawi wrote:
And on my side I am happy to monitor the members' discussion and see what it is the members want and then to bring it up internally. Rest assured Hank that we will consider all concerns where applicable and as much as possible within the constraints we have. Yes, thanks for making this clear, Fahad.
As far as I am aware, all members of the board read this list and take notice of what the members want. Our sometimes difficult job is to try and sort out what the membership as a whole wants, rather than just the dozen or so active contributors to the list. Always feel free to send any of us a direct personal question or comment, especially if there is a period of quiet. As I've mentioned before, we all have day jobs which sometimes intrude on our board work. Nigel
Truer words have not been spoken. Well summed. Sent via BlackBerry® from GCCIX -----Original Message----- From: Nigel Titley <nigel@titley.com> Sender: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:01:17 To: <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] budget 2012 On 10/10/2011 22:50, Fahad AlShirawi wrote:
And on my side I am happy to monitor the members' discussion and see what it is the members want and then to bring it up internally. Rest assured Hank that we will consider all concerns where applicable and as much as possible within the constraints we have. Yes, thanks for making this clear, Fahad.
As far as I am aware, all members of the board read this list and take notice of what the members want. Our sometimes difficult job is to try and sort out what the membership as a whole wants, rather than just the dozen or so active contributors to the list. Always feel free to send any of us a direct personal question or comment, especially if there is a period of quiet. As I've mentioned before, we all have day jobs which sometimes intrude on our board work. Nigel ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
I can only confirm Nigel words. Dima On Oct 11, 2011, at 2:01 AM, Nigel Titley wrote:
On 10/10/2011 22:50, Fahad AlShirawi wrote:
And on my side I am happy to monitor the members' discussion and see what it is the members want and then to bring it up internally. Rest assured Hank that we will consider all concerns where applicable and as much as possible within the constraints we have. Yes, thanks for making this clear, Fahad.
As far as I am aware, all members of the board read this list and take notice of what the members want. Our sometimes difficult job is to try and sort out what the membership as a whole wants, rather than just the dozen or so active contributors to the list.
Always feel free to send any of us a direct personal question or comment, especially if there is a period of quiet. As I've mentioned before, we all have day jobs which sometimes intrude on our board work.
Nigel
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...as Nigel and Fahad said, the board is very well paying attention to the list and what the members want. And for the ones who don't want to send an email to the list, feel free to send a direct email to us or even better feel free to talk to us in person at the next RIPE meeting.:-) Best regards, ck On Oct 11, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Nigel Titley wrote:
On 10/10/2011 22:50, Fahad AlShirawi wrote:
And on my side I am happy to monitor the members' discussion and see what it is the members want and then to bring it up internally. Rest assured Hank that we will consider all concerns where applicable and as much as possible within the constraints we have. Yes, thanks for making this clear, Fahad.
As far as I am aware, all members of the board read this list and take notice of what the members want. Our sometimes difficult job is to try and sort out what the membership as a whole wants, rather than just the dozen or so active contributors to the list.
Always feel free to send any of us a direct personal question or comment, especially if there is a period of quiet. As I've mentioned before, we all have day jobs which sometimes intrude on our board work.
Nigel
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At 00:53 11/10/2011 +0200, Christian Kaufmann wrote:
...as Nigel and Fahad said, the board is very well paying attention to the list and what the members want. And for the ones who don't want to send an email to the list, feel free to send a direct email to us or even better feel free to talk to us in person at the next RIPE meeting.:-)
Well I tried. I started with the draft agenda: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/gm/november-2011/draft-agenda Example extract:
6. Draft RIPE NCC Budget 2012
The RIPE NCC Executive Board welcomes any input about the Draft RIPE NCC Budget 2012 prior to and during the General Meeting November 2011.
I was glad to see that the EB welcomes input, but it didn't say "how" to provide that input. So I Googled and found the EB page at: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/executive-board I didn't find any indidivual emails listed there but did see that it lists the way to contact the EB is via email to Sabine at sam@ripe.net. So I did just that 5 days and sent the following email:
Dear RIPE NCC Executive,
Why is the budget not being voted upon? Where can an open discussion be carried to discuss why a 9% budget increase is needed, when everyone is cutting their budgets 10%?
Regards, Hank Nussbacher il.iucc
I still await a response. Perhaps the EB needs to examine itself as to why contacting the 5 members is made so difficult. Regards, Hank
Best regards,
ck
On Oct 11, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Nigel Titley wrote:
On 10/10/2011 22:50, Fahad AlShirawi wrote:
And on my side I am happy to monitor the members' discussion and see what it is the members want and then to bring it up internally. Rest assured Hank that we will consider all concerns where applicable and as much as possible within the constraints we have. Yes, thanks for making this clear, Fahad.
As far as I am aware, all members of the board read this list and take notice of what the members want. Our sometimes difficult job is to try and sort out what the membership as a whole wants, rather than just the dozen or so active contributors to the list.
Always feel free to send any of us a direct personal question or comment, especially if there is a period of quiet. As I've mentioned before, we all have day jobs which sometimes intrude on our board work.
Nigel
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Hi Hank,
I was glad to see that the EB welcomes input, but it didn't say "how" to provide that input. So I Googled and found the EB page at: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/executive-board I didn't find any indidivual emails listed there but did see that it lists the way to contact the EB is via email to Sabine at sam@ripe.net.
Thanks for your feedback regarding a non direct mailing-list to reach the EB. This is now be fixed under: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/executive-board Thanks again for the heads-up, ck
Dear Jon,
Saving 2-3% isn't going to cut it really .. so cutting training completely wouldn't help - and I think that would also be an exceptionally bad idea.
Please use real numbers from budget. Expenditure: Meeting + Courses = 857 + 383 + 263 = 1503 kEUR Income: 250 kEUR Total Expenditure: 1253 kEUR. Service Fees: 17,191 We can save: 7,3% ( or 1253 kEUR. ) About free courses. Yes, we had free courses all time, but we changed Sign-up Fee. Lets look RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2011: [1]http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-499 Minimal Sign-up fee was 2000 euro. Minimal annual fee was 1,300 + 50 per independent resource assignment It was enough for free courses, meetings, etc. Let's lookRIPE NCC Proposed Charging Scheme 2012: [2]http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/gm/november-2011/ripe-ncc-proposed-char... Minimal Sign-up Fee is 250 euro. Minimal Annual Fee is 250 euro. New LIR will pay only 500 euro. Now we can check cost of Meeting: [3]http://ripe63.ripe.net/registration/how-much-does-it-cost/ The regular meeting fee is EUR 400. However, you can get a EUR 50 discount if you register and pay by Friday, 28 October at 15:00 UTC. Wow! Great! RIPE will receive 500 euro from LIR and expenses for Meeting will be 400euro per person. Is It Logical? I have the same questions about RIPE developing activity. May be we can optimize expenses for developing services. May be not. Very simple stop developing, but it is very difficult to continue it later. Developing Services is similar startup activity. May be better to make this activity as another startup company. -- Alexey S Ivanov General Director LeaderTelecom Ltd [1] http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-499 [2] http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/gm/november-2011/ripe-ncc-proposed-char... [3] http://ripe63.ripe.net/registration/how-much-does-it-cost/
participants (26)
-
Burkov Dmitry -
Chris Russell -
Christian Kaufmann -
Christopher Kunz -
Clement Cavadore -
Erik Bais -
Fahad AlShirawi -
Franz Bettag -
Gert Doering -
Hank Nussbacher -
IAPS Security Services, L.L.C. (Administrative Correspondence) -
Jon Morby -
Jānis Jaunošāns -
Kurt Erik Lindqvist -
LeaderTelecom Ltd. -
LeaderTelecom Ltd. -
Markel Stefo -
MB Registryno -
Nigel Titley -
Riccardo Losselli -
Robert.Guentensperger＠swisscom.com -
Roman Heczko -
Sascha Luck -
Shulyakovsky Sergey -
SPEEDNIC S.R.L. - RIPE Handling -
Tomasz Paszkowski